Ok, but that Deoxys is KO'd by a CBTar easily. Just crunch. And the Cosmic power Deoxys shouldn't even BE a problem for offensive teams. WEAVILE can just use Night Slash. Any strong dark type can KO it before it gets too may set-ups, and the 2 I just mentioned are good examples. So, not even that version is too threatening.
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***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***
- Thread starter imperfectluck
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Actually Dugtrio is quite possibly the worst pokemon to use on a sweeper team due to the fact that it's ridiculously easy to set up on.
I believe "Obsolete" is an exaggaration, at the very least. I strongly doubt that players hesitiate using, for example, Choice Scarf Tyranitar because they know that Deoxys-S exists. I understand that when you're in the situtation - "Choice Scarf Pokemon versus Deoxys" - it immediately generates a sense of incapability of the Tyranitar coming out on top in the speed tie.
Sure, Deoxys generally exploits the opposing Choice Scarf user, but understandably, it does not stop the Choice Scarf Pokemon distributing itself in the team initially.
Weavile does not OHKO Deoxys-S with Night Slash after a Cosmic Power boost. I doubt it OHKOs before it.
Ok, it may not OHKO, however it STILL does a huge dent, not something Deoxys can recover off easily. And it has a high critical hit-ratio, which is the bane of that set anyways, and its not like Deoxys would be able to do anything back at Weavile, it'd just be delaying the inevitable.
Not all team are offensive, and the ones that are don't all have weavile. I have smashed loads of cb t-tars down with deoxys-s, all it takes is a few cosmic powers and everything is toast.
I'm not saying all teams are offensive, I'm saying that people who complain that Deoxys-S destroys all viability for a sweeper team aren't totally right, and that there are ways to take it out. And after a few cosmic powers, yes, not much will even scratch you, but thats why people should switch in their counter BEFORE hat point. And I only suggested CBTar as a counter to the Cosmic power sets, as they don't hurt him much, the sweeper sets have their own counters. If a player lets Deoxys get 3+ Cosmic Powers, then they are at fault for makin mistakes, it is not a reason to state that Deoxys is uber.
Anything in OU, after a few stat boosting moves can own everything else. That fact is not unique to Deoxys-S.
I don't want to get off the topic entirely, but I'm just going to paraphrase some other threads regarding OU vs. Uber...
Early DP - Remember when T-tar was almost banished to Ubers? Hypothetical consequences were thrown around - one was to ban Cresellia as well, because without T-tar, Cressy would feel free to wall just about everything.
So, if Deoxys is re-banned, what would happen? Garchomp would also be banned, as it could set up much easier. T-tar might be considered for ban (and Cresellia as well). After that, Salamence would sweep much better and would be consequently be banned.
And soon, all of the OUs would be relegated to Uber, and we would be having UU pokemon ranked as OU. Does this sound right?
To counter my above statements, many would contend that Garchomp usage would decrease. After all, Garchomp usage apparently shot up after the introduction of the Deoxys was realised, right?
Feel free to implement this plan: Ban Deoxys, and see if Garchomp would still be a monster in terms of usage and ability to counter. If Garchomp usage stays high, re-introduce the Deoxys.
I would also like to state my understanding of grounds to ban to uber. Remember, this is paraphrasing, not actual words. I'm hoping I'm not being a douche...
A pokemon is only to be banned to ubers if there is no counter. A counter is defined as one that can switch in without taking a huge amount of damage (either by an item removal, or actual attack damage), and either scare it away completely by a threat of 1-2HKO, or revene killing, etc.
The only counters to Deoxys that I can think of are...
T-tar, assuming that deoxys is not Super-Powerversion.
Garchomp, as even the ice beam version is bleh
Strong Sucker punchers (I can't really think of many, but Absol might if it is correctly EVd, and has Choice band with a crit-hit)
Wobbuffet
So, my answer is a question of events.
Choice 1 - Wobbs/Chomp/Tar are banned. Deoxys is UBER
Choice 2 - Wobbs/Chomp/Tar are not banned - Deoxys is OU.
Choice 3 - The Latis are unbanned - Deoxys is not uber.
Choice 3 leads to another question, but I believe that should be dealt with first - if we unban the Latis, is Deoxys counterable? The Latis would also create a new question - do we need to make a tier of BL-ubers, and what would the whole tier-system look like?
Plan of action proposed by me (feel free to ignore, but it is essential to my post)....
1.) Ban Deoxys and Wobbs, see if metagame returns to pree-Deoxys levels.
2a) If the metagame re-stabilizes, it shows Deoxys is Uber - skip to Step 5.
2b) The metagame is still horribly shifted to Garchomp/T-tar/Mence/Cressy, and allows them to sweep and centralize the metagame. Deoxys is not uber, and is re-introduced.
3) Introduce the Latis for a period of 3-6 months.
4) Determine the consequences of Lati participation.
5) If Lati intro overcentralises without Deoxys, re-introduce Deoxys for a period of 3-6 months to see if re-stabilisation occurs. If it deos, Latis are OU.
I hope you understand the post, and I'm sorry for going off topic. However, before tests are completed (which is never going to happen as the metagame is intended to be ever-changing), we cannot definitively say that Deoxys is uber.
I put in alot of time and effort, do not look at this as spam or idiotic/moronic post.
Early DP - Remember when T-tar was almost banished to Ubers? Hypothetical consequences were thrown around - one was to ban Cresellia as well, because without T-tar, Cressy would feel free to wall just about everything.
So, if Deoxys is re-banned, what would happen? Garchomp would also be banned, as it could set up much easier. T-tar might be considered for ban (and Cresellia as well). After that, Salamence would sweep much better and would be consequently be banned.
And soon, all of the OUs would be relegated to Uber, and we would be having UU pokemon ranked as OU. Does this sound right?
To counter my above statements, many would contend that Garchomp usage would decrease. After all, Garchomp usage apparently shot up after the introduction of the Deoxys was realised, right?
Feel free to implement this plan: Ban Deoxys, and see if Garchomp would still be a monster in terms of usage and ability to counter. If Garchomp usage stays high, re-introduce the Deoxys.
I would also like to state my understanding of grounds to ban to uber. Remember, this is paraphrasing, not actual words. I'm hoping I'm not being a douche...
A pokemon is only to be banned to ubers if there is no counter. A counter is defined as one that can switch in without taking a huge amount of damage (either by an item removal, or actual attack damage), and either scare it away completely by a threat of 1-2HKO, or revene killing, etc.
The only counters to Deoxys that I can think of are...
T-tar, assuming that deoxys is not Super-Powerversion.
Garchomp, as even the ice beam version is bleh
Strong Sucker punchers (I can't really think of many, but Absol might if it is correctly EVd, and has Choice band with a crit-hit)
Wobbuffet
So, my answer is a question of events.
Choice 1 - Wobbs/Chomp/Tar are banned. Deoxys is UBER
Choice 2 - Wobbs/Chomp/Tar are not banned - Deoxys is OU.
Choice 3 - The Latis are unbanned - Deoxys is not uber.
Choice 3 leads to another question, but I believe that should be dealt with first - if we unban the Latis, is Deoxys counterable? The Latis would also create a new question - do we need to make a tier of BL-ubers, and what would the whole tier-system look like?
Plan of action proposed by me (feel free to ignore, but it is essential to my post)....
1.) Ban Deoxys and Wobbs, see if metagame returns to pree-Deoxys levels.
2a) If the metagame re-stabilizes, it shows Deoxys is Uber - skip to Step 5.
2b) The metagame is still horribly shifted to Garchomp/T-tar/Mence/Cressy, and allows them to sweep and centralize the metagame. Deoxys is not uber, and is re-introduced.
3) Introduce the Latis for a period of 3-6 months.
4) Determine the consequences of Lati participation.
5) If Lati intro overcentralises without Deoxys, re-introduce Deoxys for a period of 3-6 months to see if re-stabilisation occurs. If it deos, Latis are OU.
I hope you understand the post, and I'm sorry for going off topic. However, before tests are completed (which is never going to happen as the metagame is intended to be ever-changing), we cannot definitively say that Deoxys is uber.
Earlier in this post said:
I put in alot of time and effort, do not look at this as spam or idiotic/moronic post.
Yes, but there ARE counters to Deoxys that you did not mention. Spiritomb, Dusknoir, Swampert, all 3 also do very well. Deoxys isn't a huge deal unless you somehow let it get many cosmic power's under its belt, and the sweeper is walled by the aforementioned pokemon and Cresselia.
It has enough ways to be dealt with- I don't see any issues. Heck, just use a ScarfChomp. Deoxys normally run ~462 speed to outrun the slower scarf pokemon (Heracross etc) and every pokemon not scarfed, but Jolly ScarfChomp with max speed actually hits about 499 speed, more than enough to KO it. If Deoxys opts for more speed (Near max) to outrun it, than it loses even MORE power, which it desperately needs in order to be effective. And Garchomp CAN get in on any move BUT Ice Beam.
Deoxys isn't unbeatable for ANY type of team. People just don't seem to understand that.
It has enough ways to be dealt with- I don't see any issues. Heck, just use a ScarfChomp. Deoxys normally run ~462 speed to outrun the slower scarf pokemon (Heracross etc) and every pokemon not scarfed, but Jolly ScarfChomp with max speed actually hits about 499 speed, more than enough to KO it. If Deoxys opts for more speed (Near max) to outrun it, than it loses even MORE power, which it desperately needs in order to be effective. And Garchomp CAN get in on any move BUT Ice Beam.
Deoxys isn't unbeatable for ANY type of team. People just don't seem to understand that.
Thats the thing though. Do you really want to send your t-tar in on a pokemon that could superpower your ass to hell? On shoddy most the deoxys-s users still use him as a sweeper because, "zomg epic speed," That is 2 cosmic powers. At that point t-tar switches in and you can cosmic power again. Leaving you around 60% assuming you were at full hp. Then you can cosmic power again and heal until A.) pp stall t-tar B.) toxic stall t-tar C.) hit is with s-toss or night shade. If he is your best counter to deoxys-s you are in trouble... oh wait with deoxys-s you are always in trouble. ^^
Ugh sorry to rain on your parade but you obviously don't have a grasp on the metagame pre-deoxys-s and then the effect it had on the metagame after being unbanned. Any changes that happened after he was banned had nothing to do with him. Garchomp rose in popularity because some genius (asshole) discovered that Yache Berry lets Garchomp get at least 2 kills per battle. And I don't see how D-S being banned would really cause the chain reaction you elaborated upon. So yeah just letting you know.
Also I figured I'd mention my recent change in opinion regarding Deoxys-S. I'm still not crossing the fence to the OU side, but I really think the changes D-S has been purported to cause are actually helpful to the metagame. Prior to his unbanning, completely offensive teams were viable, if not standard. Now many players (including me) believe that these teams are no longer viable. But really, who's to say that's a bad thing for the metagame? I'm beginning to think that it's not a bad thing at all. These pure offensive teams often came down to little more than team matchups. Who had the sweeper who would come out on top of their opponent's sweepers. I don't think these teams promote skill as much as they do luck of the draw. But being forced to resort to a bulkier offense means that the game moves slower and a slower game requires more skill to operate in successfully. So I'm beginning to think that the addition of Deoxys-S actually promotes a more skillful metagame.
Deoxys-s is most often times faster than scarf chomp. None of those walls can stop the cosmic power set... yay4taunt. Swampert has no recovery move and dusknoir doesn't hit hard enough. Spiritomb is the only decent option, and it still isn't great after you let and can be the reason deoxys-s can set up cosmic power.
In the thread, there's been an argument that Deoxys - S forces people to adapt. Yes, Deoxys - S forces people to adapt. Some can take this as a sign that Deoxys - S is Uber; it overcentralizes. But when "adapting" in this case means "revamping your team to include Metagross, Jirachi, Spiritomb, Bronzong, etc...is it that overcentralization? I could say the same for Garchomp, Heracross, etc.
That isn't all, though. Garchomp, Heracross, etc. can be countered by revenge kills, while Deoxys - S's speed makes that task quite daunting. This means that to kill Deoxys - S, you have to put a defensive Pokemon on your team, which, in essence, forces someone who plays with an offensive style to change their playing style. My response to this argument is a question: Why is that such a bad thing?
Ha, didn't notice the same thing was posted up there, only more eloquently >.>.
That isn't all, though. Garchomp, Heracross, etc. can be countered by revenge kills, while Deoxys - S's speed makes that task quite daunting. This means that to kill Deoxys - S, you have to put a defensive Pokemon on your team, which, in essence, forces someone who plays with an offensive style to change their playing style. My response to this argument is a question: Why is that such a bad thing?
Ha, didn't notice the same thing was posted up there, only more eloquently >.>.
Um.. the Cosmic power variants shouldn't be carrying Superpower because it lowers your defense, making you more vulnerable again. And you shouldn't be sending your Ttar against the sweeper variant.
The moment Deoxys uses ANY move, its set is revealed. And, I reiterate- MANY pokemon with that many boosts can be a threat to an entire team. It is not just Deoxys. If your opponent lets you get that many boosts, again, then it is their fault, it does not prove Deoxys is uber. And, you won't be toxic stalling T-tar if you have S-Toss or Night Shade, so only one or the other. If you use both, you lose Taunt, which THEN means any pokemon can switch in and infict status on you, or just set up on you as well.
Deoxys isn't anything special, and there is way to handle any set it throws at you.
*sigh* I mean how do you know that is cosmic power? It could be the sweeper set and then your t-tar is ruined. So sending weavile or t-tar in is risky.
Ok, the minute Deoys uses a move, its set is revealed. If it uses an offensive move, then clearly it is the sweeper. If it uses ANY support move, then it is NOT the sweeper. All you need to do is see one move, and you're golden. It's sets are very distinct, and you can tell almost immediately.
Sorry about the short list of counters, but those counters were specifically mentioned because of the consequence of banning Deoxys would make those specifically more uber.
Quoted for truth. My opinion stays, including the scenarios mentioned before.
Wow, really happy that my other post was not labled as "st00pid" or something like that.
Quoted for truth. My opinion stays, including the scenarios mentioned before.
Wow, really happy that my other post was not labled as "st00pid" or something like that.
Unless I'm mistaken, he means when the opponent first sends it out, you have no idea what set it is, so you can't immediately switch to Tyranitar because it could be the sweeper set.
However, ZARZEMA, that would apply to a lot of other stuff, namely Salamence, Lucario, Garchomp, and Tyranitar.
Finally, at least someone decided to answer the question I've been asking several times since page 3. This is what I've believed since the very beginning and I'm glad that someone understands this point of view.
I'm tired of this "scarfers and sweeper teams got useless when Deoxys-E was unbanned" talk.
Here you have a list of the weighted usage of 10 of the most staple pokemon on purely offensive based teams - most of them with very viable choice scarf sets.
The usage statistics range from January - May 2008 , the period in which Deoxys-E has been unbanned. As can be seen, none of these pokemon have suffered AT ALL in terms of usage, with most of them even having gone up a notch or two. Obviously these pokemon can also be employed outside of offensive teams, but I'd wager a considerable bulk of their usage still comes from these teams.
Here you have a list of the weighted usage of 10 of the most staple pokemon on purely offensive based teams - most of them with very viable choice scarf sets.
The usage statistics range from January - May 2008 , the period in which Deoxys-E has been unbanned. As can be seen, none of these pokemon have suffered AT ALL in terms of usage, with most of them even having gone up a notch or two. Obviously these pokemon can also be employed outside of offensive teams, but I'd wager a considerable bulk of their usage still comes from these teams.
I'm tired of this "scarfers and sweeper teams got useless when Deoxys-E was unbanned" talk.
Here you have a list of the weighted usage of 10 of the most staple pokemon on purely offensive based teams - most of them with very viable choice scarf sets.
The usage statistics range from January - May 2008 , the period in which Deoxys-E has been unbanned. As can be seen, none of these pokemon have suffered AT ALL in terms of usage, with most of them even having gone up a notch or two. Obviously these pokemon can also be employed outside of offensive teams, but I'd wager a considerable bulk of their usage still comes from these teams.
The flaw in these statistics is that we're not talking about these pokemon individually, we're talking about them in the context of a team. I didn't expect the usage of these pokemon to go down, because they are good pokemon in their own right. I can not definitivly prove that I am right here, because I don't have statistics to show it, but then again, neither do you.
JabbaTheGriffin said:
Hmm, that's an interesting question.
I'm not sure I agree with your premise "slow metagame = more skill" though.
In regards to those high-paced sweeper teams, it often takes a LOT of prediction to get the exact sweeper you need in, especially when they have choiced sweepers, etc.
I might have say, CBCross. I figure that you may have a Hera counter of some sort. So I go to my Specsmence to pose an immediate threat to said Hera counter. Just a simpe example of how a pure offensive team take a good deal of skill to use.
While some have been arguing that deoxys-e destroys offensive teams, there have been enough posts that suggest it limits the usage of choice scarfers or offensive sweepers. Quoting the second post on the topic, for instance :
This implies both that offensive teams have a much harder time to exist with Deoxys-E around AND that offensive sweepers (such as the ones I listed) become harder to use alltogether (see the bolded parts, specifically). While the former may be true, the latter clearly isn't.
Having already spent more time than I should have in writing up my initial post, I do not intend to address all of the replies to it. As I said, I do not feel that it is my place to make the decision, as evidenced by my declining to actually vote. I'm trying to be sure I do read all the replies directed at me in particular, since at least some of the effort put into them is with the intention of changing my position. But I feel I have said my part, and that if any of the counterarguments need counter-counterarguments, someone with more investment in the subject will surely bring them in. I would like to reply to one thing, though:
Clearly using "should" did not in fact prevent that, but I tried.
I do wish to say that while the replies have not convinced me that I am wrong, I do think that Deoxys is an ambiguous case and that the intelligent portions of the discussion that are going on are absolutely worthwhile. I question to what extent Deoxys really does "kill off" certain playing styles in an irreversible manner, as is alleged, but do not dispute that its versatility and speed make it something to watch (since things like Garchomp are also considered to be worth keeping an eye on). I don't discount the possibility that Deoxys properly belongs in uber, just disagree with it.
I am also pleased that I received replies, both those that agreed with me and those that felt my comments were important enough to dispute. I mean, it's just a Pokemon forum and all, but this topic is pretty bloated, and I'm glad my voice was discernable to a few people amidst the sea of noise.
I hesitated to use an absolute there because I figured someone would say something like this:IggyBot said:
and try to force me to define exactly what attacks qualify as "respectable" and which do not. I don't want to be forced to define that line because it is arbitrary, and trying to do so would distract from the relevant topic.imperfectluck said:
Clearly using "should" did not in fact prevent that, but I tried.
I do wish to say that while the replies have not convinced me that I am wrong, I do think that Deoxys is an ambiguous case and that the intelligent portions of the discussion that are going on are absolutely worthwhile. I question to what extent Deoxys really does "kill off" certain playing styles in an irreversible manner, as is alleged, but do not dispute that its versatility and speed make it something to watch (since things like Garchomp are also considered to be worth keeping an eye on). I don't discount the possibility that Deoxys properly belongs in uber, just disagree with it.
I am also pleased that I received replies, both those that agreed with me and those that felt my comments were important enough to dispute. I mean, it's just a Pokemon forum and all, but this topic is pretty bloated, and I'm glad my voice was discernable to a few people amidst the sea of noise.
Jabba, you can't say that at all. Frail offensive teams take a ton of skill to use just like any other kind of team, as a poor handler will get swept easily by an opponent with a clue. And whether the change in the metagame is good or bad, the significance is that he was a major part of the shift and you already agree about limiting team combinations.
@ Lyfasho, I'm agreeing with Iggy. I haven't seen a sweeping or scarfed Azelf in at least 2 months. I only ever see it with Stealth Rock and Explosion now. I see much less of Scarf Gengar, Heracross, and slightly less Scarf Heatran. But where is Weavile? Breloom? Electivire? Porygon-Z? They were all used a ton on glass cannon teams, but Deoxys-E put 2 of them out of a job and people realized Electivire sucks.
Thank you for making my point for me yourself. If Garchomp destroyed an ENTIRE style of play, he would have been banned already. He doesn't do that now and there is still the controversy to ban him.
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