Garchomp and this Metagame

[umbarsc]

That's where I would disagree. If Garchomp had ExtremeSpeed I would be using it.

Saying 30% of OU outspeeds Lucario is inaccurate. How many Timid 252 Celebi have you encountered? Most Salamence will be Modest/Adamant and will be outsped by Jolly Lucario. Celebi/Jirachi/Zapdos/Tentacruel are almost always Bold/Impish with maybe minor speed investment. Even with an Adamant nature it still will outspeed the latter four.

These Pokemon CAN outspeed Lucario. But rarely will. For a truly accurate measurement we'd have to see how often these Pokemon run enough speed to outspeed Lucario (courtesy of Doug's statistics), but I'd be willing to bet it's fairly low.

ExtremeSpeed may be a burden when you lose a moveslot that could be used for better coverage, but then your opinion would turn around when Infernape comes out to Close Combat you, or Jolteon for Thunderbolt. If Lucario had 102 base speed I still think it would use ExtremeSpeed, as that is its main selling point.

 

[IggyBot]

That's where I would disagree. If Garchomp had ExtremeSpeed I would be using it.

Really? What attack would you use it over? Dragon Claw/Outrage, Swords Dance, Fire Fang or Earthquake?

Saying 30% of OU outspeeds Lucario is inaccurate. How many Timid 252 Celebi have you encountered? Most Salamence will be Modest/Adamant and will be outsped by Jolly Lucario. Celebi/Jirachi/Zapdos/Tentacruel are almost always Bold/Impish with maybe minor speed investment. Even with an Adamant nature it still will outspeed the latter four.

I didn't count Celebi, Jirachi, Zapdos or Tentacruel, only pokemon that can actually be counted on to outspeed Lucario. If I took every pokemon with higher base speed into account, the number of pokemon outspeeding Lucario would be much higher.

 

[umbarsc]

I would drop Fire Fang. I would become more vulnerable to Skarmory/Bronzong but those can be trapped with Magnezone, and aren't extremely common anyways.

You're right, I did forget to count the 95 Base Pokemon. Though that only adds Electivire and Yanmega, neither of which are particularly common.

 

[IggyBot]

You do realize that Bronzong is the 9th used pokemon overall, with Skamory not far back at number 22, right? How can you say they are "not common"?

 

[umbarsc]

I said not "extremely common", with regards more towards Skarmory. Bronzong lacks recovery (even Leftovers, as many pack Lum), and can be worn down, and they even Explode sometimes.

Magnezone still beats both of them.

 

[Mr.E]

Garchomp's characteristics make it overpowered, since only Garchomp boasts all of those useful characteristics without the obvious drawbacks of things like Lucario and Porygon-Z. ... How are Garchomp's unique characteristics not significant?

I'm not trivializing any argument; there is no argument. He highlighted a few characteristics that described Garchomp and said it's overpowered. That isn't an argument.

Why is Garchomp any more overpowered than our oft-mentioned Lucario? Accounting for the metagame consideration that few 100 Base Speedsters actually have +Speed personalities, both outspeed most all the same things except Garchomp itself. (Lucario has access to priority moves to sniff out a lot of faster opponents too, unlike Garchomp.) Lucario may not be as bulky all-around but its resistances (yay Steel type!) allow it to generally switch in more easily. Where the exact same things pretty much always counter Garchomp, Lucario's unpredictability make that initial switch-in tougher and "countering" it becomes guesswork. Are you guys telling me Garchomp is better simply because it can and does rely on brute force? There's no functional difference between relying on unpredictability or brute force so long as they're both nabbing kill after kill.

"Tieing in speed with the #1 most used pokemon in the game is overrated? lol. If that was actually true, you wouldn't be the only person to think that."

The most convincing argument for Garchomp's Speed is... it ties itself? Well no shit, Sherlock. Not only is it stating the obvious it's also borderline circular logic. It's like, "Garchomp has great Speed. Garchomp needs that Speed to tie other Garchomp because Garchomp has great Speed."

"Dragon Dance is NOT just as dangerous as SD, and this is obvious because nobody is saying that DDGyara or DDMence is broken, just SDChomp. You can go over dd vs sd all you want, but the simple fact is that its irrelevant. If DDmence were actually more dangerous than SDChomp, it would actually be used."

An appeal to the masses is not a valid justification for an argument.

Aside the past novelty of Chainchomp, the only question for non-Choice Garchomp is whether to use Sub or not. DDMence plays behind the much more popular Specsmence and often settles for a mixed set as well, two completely different movesets. DD sets are the most common option for Dragonite and Gyarados, though, and I've heard my fair share of whining about the latter. Waterfall even acts like mini-Sand Veil with its annoying flinch, "mini" because Gyarados isn't always using Waterfall.

Your SD-humping and baseless insults against my supposed lack of comprehension isn't going to make me start playing again. If I did care, I have my own "secret weapon" and would plan to avoid using Garchomp just to prove a point, though.

[split up into two posts because my reply to Iggy's stuff is long]

 

[Mr.E]

Lucario is forced to used either a 80 or 60 BP attack with terrible type coverage to hit everything faster than it. Garchomp already outspeeds a huge number of pokemon in the game (I have the exact percentage somewhere, I'll find it) and the number of pokemon that outspeed Garchomp compared to the number of pokemon that outspeed Lucario is a pretty big number.

It's not really fair to say Lucario is "forced" into using it. It's an advantage that he has the option to use it. In other words, exactly what umbarsc said. :/ Yes, Lucario needs to use Extremespeed to beat Electivire or Tentacruel. On the other hand, it can also use Extremespeed to beat Weavile, Starmie, anything Scarfed. Garchomp doesn't have that option at all. Lucario is the one better off here, not Garchomp. On a related tangent, Ice Shard is much more common than Mach Punch -- not only does Lucario have access to his own priority attack to fight off slower priority users attempting to beat him, but it resists the most common one anyway.

The number of significant pokémon that Garchomp outspeeds and Lucario doesn't really isn't that large. (The raw number is pretty high though, mainly due to the bloated list of Base 100's in BL.) Here's the list of OU and BL between 90 and 102 Base Speed inclusive:

Garchomp, obviously. Sadly, tying other Garchomps is largely the single best reason Garchomp needs its own Speed.

Celebi and Jirachi? I'm about the only person in the world that typically runs 300+ on them, the vast majority are bulky sets with little to no Speed at all.

Zapdos. Can be faster but typically runs bulky on one side or BP sets. Usually has a +SpA nature to take advantage of its much higher stat there.

Salamence. None of its most common movesets are +Speed. Specsmence is almost always Modest, Mixmence can't afford the loss of attack stats, and DDMence rarely goes past 270. Annoying to physical Lucario for its Intimidate and Fighting resistance, not Speed.

Tentacruel. Probably the most common OU speedster that would be faster, especially SD and Specs sets. Also a common user of Toxic Spikes, which Garchomp hates but Lucario is immune to, and the most susceptible [of the 100-base OUs] to Lucario's Extremespeed.

Yanmega. Speed Boost allows it beat Garchomp anyway, let alone Lucario. Susceptible to Extremespeed, double-weak to SR, and can't touch Lucario if it lacks Air Slash.

Electivire. Unless things have changed recently, it's usually +Attack. Will also outspeed Garchomp if it absorbed an Electric attack. Susceptible to Extremespeed.

Gliscor. Never maxes Speed. Gives both Garchomp and Lucario trouble due to its high Defense and (BAN ME PLEASE) Sand Veil.

Roserade. Often max Speed for Specs or Subseeding, and thus ties Lucario. Can use Toxic Spikes. Susceptible to Extremespeed and does limited damage anyway if it lacks HP Fire.

Lucario. Duh. 50/50 shot at the kill like Garchomp dittos, fair enough.

-----BL-----

Charizard. Charizard is only BL because it's fucking CHARIZARD, it's not really that good and you don't ever see it in top teams. That said, will usually be faster than Lucario but lose to Extremespeed after SR damage.

Shaymin. Hell if I know, but I assume it probably runs fast, unlike Celebi/Jirachi, since it lacks 50% recovery. Lacks damage without HP Fire but is resilient to Extremespeed and a Specs set will blow Lucario away with Seed Flare anyway.

Flygon. May or may not run faster and resilience enough to eat Extremespeed at high health. Garchomp +1.

Staraptor. Can blow up Lucario if it's the more common Jolly, but it's suceptible to Extremespeed.

Entei, Regigigigigigigigas, Typhlosion. Typhlosion is only BL because it eats UU alive. (If it ever showed up in OU it would be faster than Lucario, albeit somewhat weak to ES.) Entei and Regigigas, lol.

Slaking. Scarf will outspeed both. CB is a solid victory for Outrage Garchomp; Earthquake won't OHKO.

Arcanine. Sometimes opts to be slower due to having its own Extremespeed. Some will be faster, though, and its high HP plus a possible Intimidate lets it tank Lucario's ES fairly well.

Houndoom. Faster but susceptible to Extremespeed.

Uxie. See Entei and Regigigas. The few in use are bulky, which Lucario may OHKO and Garchomp won't.

Zangoose. Ties Lucario and has its own Close Combat. Susceptible to Extremespeed.

Moltres. Like Zapdos, is often Modest to take advantage of its higher stat. Goes 50/50 with Stone Edge and beats Crunch/ES Lucario, but it suffers Charizard syndrome and loses to SR + ES automatically.

Porygon-Z. Ties Lucario, may be Scarfed. Susceptible to Extremespeed and can hardly touch Lucario anyway; Garchomp gets punched in the mouth by Scarfed Ice Beam.

Ones where Garchomp has a significant advantage due to Speed are bolded. Aside Lucario/Garchomp themselves, the likes of Flygon and friends aren't too common. The only other remotely common offender is Tentacruel, whose Toxic Spikes are liable to impede Garchomp anyway and only deals significant damage with Specs. Shaymin and Slaking are also only OHKOed by Outrage, so Dragon Claw Garchomps still fails despite its Speed.

In other news, fuck Roserade and Venusaur is way too underused for its own good.

You do realize that Bronzong is the 9th used pokemon overall, with Skamory not far back at number 22, right? How can you say they are "not common"?

Gengar alone is the second most-used pokémon behind Garchomp and beats Bronzong + Skarmory's combined usage figures. Deoxys-E is #6, Infernape and Starmie are at 12 and 13, Azelf at #16, Weavile at #19, and #21 Heracross is commonly Scarfed. (Heatran at #5 is also commonly Scarfed, but laughs at both ES and BPunch anyway.)

Are you really saying it wouldn't be worthwhile to use Extremespeed over Fire Fang, if Garchomp had that option? Gengar is immune to it anyway but the list of pokémon ES would see use against is still much longer than "Bronzong and Skarmory." Forretress as well, to be fair, but Forretress is liable to ruin Garchomp via Toxic Spikes anyway and is countered by Magnezone just like the other two.

Lucario does have the option. The exact same reasoning can be used to justify Dragon Dance in comparison to Swords Dance as well, albeit on a lesser scale. (A second DD is required for the likes of Yanmega/Ninjask, Deoxys-E, really fast Scarfers and one DD loses in power what it gains in Speed.)

 

[Bourbon]

OK, I see stuff like this on every page, so again, I'll repeat myself.

Gyarados, Lucario, Salamence... none of them are even close to the awesome power of Garchomp.

Two of them, Salamence and Gyarados, don't have any "power moves" to work with. Waterfall is the strongest Gyarados can muster, and not only do many OUs resist Water attacks, one of them is immune. Salamence has Dragon Claw, which is nice, but has no Outrage or STAB Earthquake. So yeah, no Swords Dance, and Garchomp's moves have 1.5x more power. Don't forget the Stealth Rock weak too.

So yeah, Gyarados has similar attack, but can only boost it by 1.5 times, and has a 120 power move to work with. Salamence's attack is slightly better, however, is in the same boat as Gyarados; he can't boost it fast enough and his moves are too low powered. In fact, Swampert can switch into DDmence no matter what move it used and threaten a OHKO, while Salamence can only muster around 60% in return, even with a Life Orb.

I don't know how you guys can say Salamence is as big of a threat as Garchomp. The only advantage Salamence has is unpredictability. You already know exactly what Garchomp is going to do, yet it takes 2-3 pokemon to take it down.

Yache Chomp's SD Outrage does 1.497x more damage than Salamence's DD LO Dragon Claw. Garchomp's SD dragon claw is around the same power. This is with Garchomp holding Yache Berry, not Life Orb. Same deal with EQ thanks to STAB.

If Garchomp was Jolly and holding a Life Orb, he does 1.773x as much damage with his STAB attacks.

Just thought I would quote my calculations. Oh, and don't forget that DD LO Gyarados does even worse than Salamence considering he last less attack.


Lucario is a different story. It has Close Combat, which is a very very good attack. However, it's average speed means that the pokemon it gets to use it on is limited to slow, non-fighting resistant walls. His other moves are fairly "meh". An unSTABed priority move, Bullet Punch, Crunch, Stone Edge is basically all his useful physical moves (EQ is redundant with CC).

Furthermore, Lucario is very easy to wall once you know it's set. You know it will have Close Combat and Swords Dance. All you have to do is find out the other two.

If it lacks Crunch, bulky Psychics and Dusknoir can take it on. If it lacks Bullet Punch, Gengar can beat it. If it lacks HP Ice, Gliscor can kill it, and if it lacks Stone Edge, Gyarados can beat it.

So there you go, Lucario is easily walled once you know it's set. If you know what it's packing, there is several very good counters. We all know Garchomp's set; it's always the same, however, still nothing can beat it!

 

[IggyBot]

It's not really fair to say Lucario is "forced" into using it. It's an advantage that he has the option to use it. In other words, exactly what umbarsc said. :/ Yes, Lucario needs to use Extremespeed to beat Electivire or Tentacruel. On the other hand, it can also use Extremespeed to beat Weavile, Starmie, anything Scarfed. Garchomp doesn't have that option at all. Lucario is the one better off here, not Garchomp. On a related tangent, Ice Shard is much more common than Mach Punch -- not only does Lucario have access to his own priority attack to fight off slower priority users attempting to beat him, but it resists the most common one anyway.

Of course Extreme Speed is an option, but it's not an option that anybody would actually give up on Lucario, because of the low speed. Lucario is forced to run Extreme Speed to have any sort of potential currently, because there is far to much that outspeeds it.

The number of significant pokémon that Garchomp outspeeds and Lucario doesn't really isn't that large. (The raw number is pretty high though, mainly due to the bloated list of Base 100's in BL.) Here's the list of OU and BL between 90 and 102 Base Speed inclusive

Again, I didn't take Jirachi, Celebi, Tentacruel, or any other pokemon that don't normally run the speed needed to outspeed Lucario into account when I posted the statistic.

Celebi

and Jirachi? I'm about the only person in the world that typically runs 300+ on them, the vast majority are bulky sets with little to no Speed at all.

Again, I didn't take them into account.

Zapdos.

Can be faster but typically runs bulky on one side or BP sets. Usually has a +SpA nature to take advantage of its much higher stat there.

Didn't take it into account.

Salamence.

None of its most common movesets are +Speed. Specsmence is almost always Modest, Mixmence can't afford the loss of attack stats, and DDMence rarely goes past 270. Annoying to physical Lucario for its Intimidate and Fighting resistance, not Speed.

I don't know where you have been, but first of all, every non Bulky Salamence (which Lucario isn't touching anyways) should be running 280 speed now.

Yanmega.

Speed Boost allows it beat Garchomp anyway, let alone Lucario. Susceptible to Extremespeed, double-weak to SR, and can't touch Lucario if it lacks Air Slash.

HP Ground is common on Yanmega, and Yanmega isn't OHKO'd by a SD'd Extremespeed anyways.

Electivire.

Unless things have changed recently, it's usually +Attack. Will also outspeed Garchomp if it absorbed an Electric attack. Susceptible to Extremespeed.

I conceded that Electivire is susceptible to Extremespeed, but +attack Electivire still outspeeds Lucario

Uxie.

See Entei and Regigigas. The few in use are bulky, which Lucario may OHKO and Garchomp won't.

Lucario will not OHKO a Bulky Uxie, while Uxie can Yawn, TWave, or just attack Lucario. It does the same to Garchomp.

Are you really saying it wouldn't be worthwhile to use Extremespeed over Fire Fang, if Garchomp had that option? Gengar is immune to it anyway but the list of pokémon ES would see use against is still much longer than "Bronzong and Skarmory." Forretress as well, to be fair, but Forretress is liable to ruin Garchomp via Toxic Spikes anyway and is countered by Magnezone just like the other two.

Yes, I am saying that I wouldn't use Extreme Speed (I don't use Fire Fang now, but that's besides the point). Anything outspeeding Garchomp that's worth Extreme Speeding will not OHKO Garchomp with a Yache Berry, so I really don't see the point of it.

Lucario does have the option.

You still didn't show me this anywhere. You failed to mention all of the pokemon that outspeed Garchomp AND Lucario in OU (Garchomp beats most, if not all of them with a Yache, while Lucario does not), and failed to mention other pokemon who's base speed may not be 90-102, but run +speed (significantly, Mamoswine).

 

[Mr.E]

Iggy, you're operating under the assumption that Lucario is, for some reason, not running +Speed itself. A 280 Speed Salamence is never going to outspeed a proper SD Lucario spread, likewise for most of the other things you mentioned.

You're right, Uxie won't be OHKOed by Lucario. I forgot to take into account a +Def personality for it. T-Wave is an annoyance and works in Garchomp's favor despite Extremespeed ignoring the Speed loss, but Yawn works just as well on Garchomp and Uxie does more damage to it than Lucario.

Significantly, Mamoswine will punch Garchomp its bitch with Ice Shard. ;/ Extremespeed isn't strong enough to kill Mamoswine outright but it'd be a great boon against a weakened one. And the fact that Garchomp is not outright KOed by anything (Drago nattacks aside) is irrelevant, for the final time. It often sacrifices the Yache Berry, and 2/3 of its health, just to set up in the first place. The best you can hope for is maybe ~80% HP switching in on a Rock attack and forcing a switch during the SD (with Yache intact!).

And, as I mentioned a few pages back, CB Weavile OHKOs Garchomp with Ice Punch even through Yache Berry. That's something.

Furthermore, Lucario is very easy to wall once you know it's set. You know it will have Close Combat and Swords Dance. All you have to do is find out the other two.

That's been my exact point all along! Garchomp is pretty much countered by the exact same pokémon every single time. Lucario requires you to sniff out its moveset first or simply hope it's not carrying the right attack. Salamence counters it... if it doesn't have Stone Edge. Dusknoir counters it... if it doesn't have Crunch. Scarfcross counters it... if it doesn't have Extremespeed. However, you often don't know what it has until you switch your "counter" in and they either run or you die.

Gengar is much dangerous to Garchomp than it is Lucario. It commonly packs HP Ice for the Dragons, Lucario resists Shadow Ball and may also opt to carry Bullet Punch instead of ES.

 

[Bourbon]

Have you done the damage calcs? Jolly Lucario isn't used because it can't OHKO anything it is supposed to. 10% less damage is a big deal considering most of Lucario's Close Combat targets are barely KOed even with rocks up. Changing to Jolly would defeat the purpose of the set.

Garchomp is always Jolly, therefore, when people do damage calcs, they use Jolly nature, and when people try to outspeed Garchomp they aim for 334 speed, not 304.

 

[Mr.E]

I'm not getting into a Jolly vs. Adamant argument, but if that's the difference between killing Salamence and friends as compared to (whatever stuff Lucario OHKOs only with Adamant) then both are viable and it's merely the player's choice. Adamant can certainly be argued on the front that Extremespeed allows it to lean toward higher Attack over higher Speed, too.

 

[IggyBot]

Iggy, you're operating under the assumption that Lucario is, for some reason, not running +Speed itself. A 280 Speed Salamence is never going to outspeed a proper SD Lucario spread, likewise for most of the other things you mentioned.

Of course I'm operating under that assumption. If you take a couple of days and play D/P, you would be as well. Lucario needs +attack to gain the sort of sweeping power that makes it such a big threat. The 10% damage that Lucario loses is a HUGE difference. For example, Lucario no longer OHKO's Skarmory, doesn't come close to Hippowdon, and Extreme Speed goes from a 100% OHKO on Deoxys-E, to a 50% OHKO. If Lucario is running +speed, then it loses what makes it the OHKO power that makes it so dangerous right now.

Significantly, Mamoswine will punch Garchomp its bitch with Ice Shard. ;/ Extremespeed isn't strong enough to kill Mamoswine outright but it'd be a great boon against a weakened one. And the fact that Garchomp is not outright KOed by anything (Drago nattacks aside) is irrelevant, for the final time. It often sacrifices the Yache Berry, and 2/3 of its health, just to set up in the first place. The best you can hope for is maybe ~80% HP switching in on a Rock attack and forcing a switch during the SD (with Yache intact!).

Who cares if Garchomp loses a ton of its health, if it OHKO's the pokemon that's outspeeding and hitting it, and lives to take on the next pokemon? That's the whole point of using a Yache.

And, as I mentioned a few pages back, CB Weavile OHKOs Garchomp with Ice Punch even through Yache Berry. That's something.

And that is the only pokemon that can actually OHKO and outspeed Yache Garchomp.

That's been my exact point all along! Garchomp is pretty much countered by the exact same pokémon every single time. Lucario requires you to sniff out its moveset first or simply hope it's not carrying the right attack. Salamence counters it... if it doesn't have Stone Edge. Dusknoir counters it... if it doesn't have Crunch. Scarfcross counters it... if it doesn't have Extremespeed. However, you often don't know what it has until you switch your "counter" in and they either run or you die.

Garchomp can not be countered. I don't know where you got that notion from, but what Skiddle is saying is that Garchomp is so powerful, it can run the same damn set every single time, and STILL be overpowering, and have the same sweeping potential. Garchomp doesn't give a fuck about unpredictability because it doesn't need it.

Gengar is much dangerous to Garchomp than it is Lucario. It commonly packs HP Ice for the Dragons, Lucario resists Shadow Ball and may also opt to carry Bullet Punch instead of ES.

As I outlined in my earlier post, if Lucario carrys Bullet Punch over Extreme Speed, it leaves itself open to many other threats including Infernape, Electivire and Deoxys (off the top of my head).

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Where the exact same things pretty much always counter Garchomp, Lucario's unpredictability make that initial switch-in tougher and "countering" it becomes guesswork. Are you guys telling me Garchomp is better simply because it can and does rely on brute force? There's no functional difference between relying on unpredictability or brute force so long as they're both nabbing kill after kill.

Yes, I am telling you that Garchomp is better because it can and does rely on brute force. You forget that Lucario sacrifices a lot of kills in the name of unpredictability. Youre not using Crunch? Well now Celebi and Cresselia get you. No Stone Edge? Now Zapdos and Salamence laugh at you. No Bullet Punch? Hi Gengar. You're without HP Ice? Gliscor says whats up.

Garchomp uses the same 4 moves and doesn't lose its near perfect type coverage and is still uncounterable by definition. The right Lucario set can be good depending on how its teammates can back it up, but Lucario can't just come in and threaten EVERYTHING. Lucario's moveslot syndrome affects the user. Garchomp's uncounterable moveset only punishes the opponent because even if they are prepared for it, they will still lose a pokemon if it gets that one boost. There are drawbacks to using any Lucario set, but there are no drawbacks to using the standard Garchomp set except for the opponent since there is no safe switch-in.

Your SD-humping and baseless insults against my supposed lack of comprehension isn't going to make me start playing again. If I did care, I have my own "secret weapon" and would plan to avoid using Garchomp just to prove a point, though.

These are the only parts of your post that are anywhere close to correct or relevant so I'll just respond to the rest of it with this:

If you don't play, you really shouldn't be posting your opinions as if you do play. Whether or not you play isn't a concern, its just that when you say things like "Tyranitar is getting real consideration for Uber status", "Lucario and Gyarados are just as strong", "Garchomp isnt even that hard to beat" it makes it really annoying for me and other people to address those blatant falsehoods before getting to the actual argument. Making pokemon comparisons, especially across generational gaps is pretty much the most useless thing you could possibly do since Adv Tyranitar's tier status has no impact on whether or not Garchomp is overpowering. Lucario's strengths have nothing to do with Garchomp's tier placement, either. It's distracting and trivializes the argument while clouding the points you make that are actually valid in today's game.

This "SD-humping" is exactly what we're trying to say makes Garchomp overpowering, but you just dismiss it completely because of some absurd theory you have about Dragon Dance being a better move in d/p. Your comparisons to Dragon Dance are valid in the long run, but you're missing the part where players dont have time to set up multiple boosts in d/p. Swords Dance is better in D/P because the speed boost that Dragon Dance gives does not overcome the lack of attack boost. If it takes one boost to 2hko every pokemon in the game, that is MUCH better than taking two boosts to do the same thing. Especially when you consider the fact that Garchomp has the speed, defenses and typing to not need a speed boost.

+1 Garchomp doesn't 2hko Bronzong and Skarmory, while +2 Garchomp does. +1 Garchomp can't 2hko Suicune, but +2 Garchomp can. The level of attack boost isn't really relevant in terms of faster pokemon since with any boost in attack, Garchomp is going to ohko all of the mere 7 OU pokemon that are faster than it (gengar, starmie, azelf, jolteon, deoxys, infernape, weavile). Swords Dance is the perfect move for something of Garchomp's unique speed tier since it doesnt HAVE to Dragon Dance to outspeed almost everything in OU. Basically, Garchomp doesn't want Speed if it means it has to sacrifice Attack. Even if Garchomp learned Dragon Dance, Swords Dance would be a better option for it. The same argument applies to Rayquaza, Swords Dance is a more useful set for it even though Dragon Dance is a great move.

Sure, you can pick apart one thing from a pokemon and claim its not uber because of that...but thats missing the point since we're arguing that its all of the things combined that makes it broken. Even though you agree that sand veil is broken enough to make Garchomp uber, thats just a small piece of it. Kyogre only has 90 base speed! Lugia only has 90/90 attack stats and is weak to Stealth Rock!

 

[Mr.E]

"blagh blagh blagh I'm a dirty tramp"

Fair enough if you believe Garchomp's brute force solution makes it better. Functionally speaking, however, it makes no difference. If Lucario has Crunch, you usually don't know that until it kills your Dusknoir with it. It's too late by then. Lucario lacks Stone Edge? It's not like you can put Salamence on your team mid-match, you either have it or you don't. Even if you do have it, you still may be hesitant to switch it in if you haven't sniffed out its entire moveset since it'd suck if it really did have Stone Edge and you just gave up a free kill. Garchomp suffers just as well, his list of trouble pokémon just never changes because his moveset is essentially static. Where Lucario may get in trouble against either Salamence or Cresselia, Garchomp will just always beat the former and have issues with the latter.

While not directly related to the argument at hand, of course those things I mentioned are relevant. Tyranitar used to be considered overpowered, why didn't we ever ban it? The usage stats on ADV Blissey were every bit as high as Garchomp's are now, how come it wasn't banned? If Garchomp is supposedly broken and should be banned, would about other superpowered pokémon such as Lucario? The underlying point is that people are always whining about something, Garchomp is only the most recent in a long line of such complaints. I'm not yet convinced that Garchomp is the one that finally gets banned for real.

To say Garchomp doesn't "need" the Speed is asinine. I listed seven of the Top 25 most common pokémon that frequently or always outspeed Garchomp. Including Scarfers, a good 25% of OU outspeeds him and all of them can put the hurt on Garchomp. (The weakest one there is DUGTRIO, who still lops off at least 40-50% since it's always CB or LO.) Likewise, you started up a nice little list of things that Swords Dance (or two DDs) is required to hit a OHKO or 2HKO breakpoint. Why is the ability to OHKO Suicune more important than the ability to outspeed and OHKO Starmie? Either way, you're taking a hit from at least one of them. I'm still not convinced that SD is superior since its advantage against bulky targets is offset by its disadvantage against faster targets. (Not including a possible, rare or not, second DD which gets the best of both worlds... *ahem*)

Rayquaza would rather use Swords Dance because it already has Extremespeed anyway. ;/ Quoting Lugia's attack stats is like quoting Blissey's Attack stats. ubers who cares blagh blagh

 

[sandman]

Fair enough if you believe Garchomp's brute force solution makes it better. Functionally speaking, however, it makes no difference. If Lucario has Crunch, you usually don't know that until it kills your Dusknoir with it. It's too late by then. Lucario lacks Stone Edge? It's not like you can put Salamence on your team mid-match, you either have it or you don't. Even if you do have it, you still may be hesitant to switch it in if you haven't sniffed out its entire moveset since it'd suck if it really did have Stone Edge and you just gave up a free kill. Garchomp suffers just as well, his list of trouble pokémon just never changes because his moveset is essentially static. Where Lucario may get in trouble against either Salamence or Cresselia, Garchomp will just always beat the former and have issues with the latter.

Lucario is even worse then garchomp, if you use stone edge over crucnh, dusknoir can come in, if you use HP ice over SE, gyarados will walk all over you. Garchomp doesn't worry about that because after swords dance he 2kos every standard. Lucario suffers from move syndrome while garchomp doesn't.

While not directly related to the argument at hand, of course those things I mentioned are relevant. Tyranitar used to be considered overpowered, why didn't we ever ban it?

thats just silly to say that, besides saying ttar used to be considered to overpowered is not really correct. The most complaints were before DP came out, not when the metagame was released. People were hyping about ttar is uncounterable, CB set 2kos all walls expect hippo and even then it can just run ice beam. The sandstorm boost gives it 660 base stat total, it must be uber. When we started playing it, we found that ttar has a really hard time DD with all the garchomps around, it still has slow speed and weaknesses to commonly used attacks that hinder its sweeping ability.

Garchomp is the only pokemon that is still being hyped about the same reasons it was before DP came out, it takes two pokemon to kill garchomp, one to weaken it and the other to revenge kill it. Rampardos, electivire, gyarados, Ryhperior, ttar, heracross, and infernape hyping died out, but people are still complaining about garchomp.

If Garchomp is supposedly broken and should be banned, would about other superpowered pokémon such as Lucario? The underlying point is that people are always whining about something

The other pokemon are not as broken as garchomp.there are plently of reasons through out this thread.

 

[Zachilles]

Just a point I wanted to make:

If you cite Sandstream as the problem, and then move to remove Tyranitar and Hippowdon, okay. If that's the case, then we'd also have to ban Sandstorm, because what's to stop Bronzong from starting off with Sandstorm?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Just a point I wanted to make:

If you cite Sandstream as the problem, and then move to remove Tyranitar and Hippowdon, okay. If that's the case, then we'd also have to ban Sandstorm, because what's to stop Bronzong from starting off with Sandstorm?

This and the fact that it's silly to ban two pokémon just to not ban another.

 

[Zachilles]

This and the fact that it's silly to ban two pokémon just to not ban another.

Yeah, banning two Pokemon and one move just to save one Pokemon is dumb. I thought that was beyond obvious. Garchomp itself is overpowered, but Sand Veil is the cherry to top it off.

 

[Arash]

banning the move sandstorm is a moot point since it takes 1 whole turn to set it up, and isn't permanent. that's like banning rain dance and sunny day, which would be way more dangerous than sandstorm if it wasn't for the ability sand stream.

also, the fact that people are citing yache berry, sand veil, swords dance, and 102 base speed individually as the thing that pushes him into uber should be proof enough that garchomp, while strong, is not uber.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

also, the fact that people are citing yache berry, sand veil, swords dance, and 102 base speed individually as the thing that pushes him into uber should be proof enough that garchomp, while strong, is not uber.

Uh...what? lol.

If there is anything that makes only a single pokemon broken, it is the pokemon that is broken and not that thing. Yache Berry does not make Dragonite broken, but it does make Garchomp broken. Sand Veil does not make Cacturne broken, but it does make Garchomp broken, Swords Dance + 102 speed does not make Infernape broken but it makes Garchomp impossible to counter...etc etc

Saying that all of those things push him into uber and then coming to the conclusion that its not uber makes me think that you either made a typo or you are confused. You said "people are citing <things that make Garchomp uber> but that proves its not uber", which couldn't possibly be a more backwards statement. What you said translates to "people think its uber, but that means its not uber" which is lol worthy for obvious reasons.

Fair enough if you believe Garchomp's brute force solution makes it better. Functionally speaking, however, it makes no difference. If Lucario has Crunch, you usually don't know that until it kills your Dusknoir with it. It's too late by then. Lucario lacks Stone Edge? It's not like you can put Salamence on your team mid-match, you either have it or you don't. Even if you do have it, you still may be hesitant to switch it in if you haven't sniffed out its entire moveset since it'd suck if it really did have Stone Edge and you just gave up a free kill. Garchomp suffers just as well, his list of trouble pokémon just never changes because his moveset is essentially static. Where Lucario may get in trouble against either Salamence or Cresselia, Garchomp will just always beat the former and have issues with the latter.

Yes, it does make a difference. Lucario's unpredictability is for getting that one surprise kill of something that your team usually can't handle otherwise. I know that Curt used Stone Edge Lucario because his team had trouble switching into Gyarados. I know that ipl used HP Ice and Stone Edge because he couldnt afford to switch. Either way, they were both sacrificing a lot of power and coverage to hit one specific thing. That hurts them in the long run, there is some risk to go with the rewards of using a unique moveset. What if they use Gliscor to beat Lucario instead of Gyarados? Now Curt is screwed. What if they use Gengar to finish off Luke? Now ipl cant touch it. You might get that one surprise kill to seal a sweep with Lucario, but you are banking on your opponent using specific pokemon just as they are doing to you. Garchomp's brute force approach hits literally everything in the game extremely hard without having to sacrifice in any other department and that makes it impossible to prepare for without huge amounts of dedication from a team. You can use Salamence + Celebi to beat Lucario 100% of the time, but there is no solid core of types or pokemon that can beat Garchomp in the same way. The guessing game with Lucario only lasts a turn, at most. Once you figure it out, you have it solved. Garchomp does not have this issue since you have it solved the second it comes out and it STILL requires two pokemon to beat. Garchomp does not have trouble with Salamence or Cresselia, it only has trouble when you have Cresselia AND something else to finish it off. The problem of sacrificing type coverage to hit specific pokemon that Garchomp avoids is quite the functional difference.

While not directly related to the argument at hand, of course those things I mentioned are relevant. Tyranitar used to be considered overpowered, why didn't we ever ban it? The usage stats on ADV Blissey were every bit as high as Garchomp's are now, how come it wasn't banned? If Garchomp is supposedly broken and should be banned, would about other superpowered pokémon such as Lucario? The underlying point is that people are always whining about something, Garchomp is only the most recent in a long line of such complaints. I'm not yet convinced that Garchomp is the one that finally gets banned for real.

Even though I understand what you're saying, I really don't think "well people bitched about Tyranitar in adv and nothing got banned" is a good argument for keeping Garchomp unbanned. Even if people are always complaining about something....a broken clock is right twice a day. I get the comparison but it really just isn't relevant. To play devil's advocate, think of the community as the boy who cried wolf, and Garchomp is the wolf. Past tier discussions and discussions of other pokemon have nothing to do with Garchomp being overpowering or not and to simply dismiss Garchomp's argument because other things have been argued for in the past is doing a pretty big disservice. The topic is "Garchomp and this Metagame", not "Garchomp, Adv Tyranitar, Lucario, and this Metagame".

To say Garchomp doesn't "need" the Speed is asinine. I listed seven of the Top 25 most common pokémon that frequently or always outspeed Garchomp. Including Scarfers, a good 25% of OU outspeeds him and all of them can put the hurt on Garchomp. (The weakest one there is DUGTRIO, who still lops off at least 40-50% since it's always CB or LO.) Likewise, you started up a nice little list of things that Swords Dance (or two DDs) is required to hit a OHKO or 2HKO breakpoint. Why is the ability to OHKO Suicune more important than the ability to outspeed and OHKO Starmie? Either way, you're taking a hit from at least one of them. I'm still not convinced that SD is superior since its advantage against bulky targets is offset by its disadvantage against faster targets. (Not including a possible, rare or not, second DD which gets the best of both worlds... *ahem*)

I'm not saying that SD is the end-all be-all dominant choice over Dragon Dance. I said that for all applicable purposes, Swords Dance is just as good on Garchomp as Dragon Dance would be. Either way, you are going to beat Starmie and Suicune. But you say it yourself (and I agree)- SD is better against bulky targets. Look at today's metagame..how would people describe it? The words I hear most often since Deoxys was unbanned are "bulky offense", the perfect type of metagame for an SD set to sweep through.

And if something could actually pull off two DDs, it really deserves to sweep since that is next to impossible in D/P. Unfortunately, taking the two turns to set up to get the same Atk boost that you can in one is just wasteful in terms of actually trying to sweep. Not only are things faster, but walls are bulkier and hit back harder. You need to attack more than you set up because walls like Bronzong and Forretress can actually hurt you back while youre setting up now. A boost in Atk is much more valuable than a boost in Speed.

That's been my exact point all along! Garchomp is pretty much countered by the exact same pokémon every single time.

Garchomp forces you to have specific counters, and you will still lose at least one of them every single time. Nothing else in OU can say anything close to that. Garchomp is countered by the same exact pokemon every single time because those are the ONLY options in countering it. You can be creative against Luke and use a Scarf Heatran to switch into 3/4 of its moves. If you try to do something like that with Scarf Heatran again for example and you can't ohko Garchomp and you get OHKOd in return...Garchomp defeats all of those "creative counters". Even if it is only at 40% HP (read: Lucario's LO ES cant KO it), Garchomp still wins and can come back another day, or sacrifice itself to give you a leg up on your opponent. Garchomp has a set pattern in trying to beat it: Sacrifice a bulky wall and then revenge kill it with either a Steel type or a faster 120+ really strong move. Forcing players to do this every single time is not only really "centralizing" to strategy, it limits creativity both in playing and in team building and quite frankly it makes the game not fun to play. Most D/P OU matches can be determined just by seeing who sets up SDYacheChomp first and that is really a pain in the balls for everyone who plays. We could force every team to use Ludicolo so that Kyogre looks worse just like we are forcing everything to be able to beat Garchomp, but where is the fun in that? We're trying to promote a competitive game, and having a force like Garchomp in OU eliminating options is unhealthy for competition.

Just look at what Garchomp has done to the OU tier. In just two months it has single handedly eliminated 6 pokemon (not counting Wobb) from OU because of how much usage it is getting. The OU tier is now down to 42 pokemon from 48+wobb a couple of months ago. If you really don't want to play to see how much the game focuses on Garchomp, you could just look at the stats and logs of users who are playing to see its negative effects on the game.

 

[AeroGP]

Uh...what? lol.

If there is anything that makes only a single pokemon broken, it is the pokemon that is broken and not that thing. Yache Berry does not make Dragonite broken, but it does make Garchomp broken. Sand Veil does not make Cacturne broken, but it does make Garchomp broken, Swords Dance + 102 speed does not make Infernape broken but it makes Garchomp impossible to counter...etc etc

Saying that all of those things push him into uber and then coming to the conclusion that its not uber makes me think that you either made a typo or you are confused. You said "people are citing <things that make Garchomp uber> but that proves its not uber", which couldn't possibly be a more backwards statement. What you said translates to "people think its uber, but that means its not uber" which is lol worthy for obvious reasons.

He said individually, meaning that no-one (besides yourself) has claimed that a solid, consistent reason for Garchomp to be banned exist. Only you have entertained the idea that all these things combined make it ban-worthy; everyone else has focused purely on a single factor that may or may not create personal problems for them.

Just clarifying. IMO, Garchomp is only ban-worthy in a metagame where Sand Stream and Stealth Rock are overcentralizing, but until a reasonable argument for banning those field hazards is created, banning Garchomp is our only option right now.

 

[Bourbon]

Meh, if everyone other than Iggybot didn't ignore everything I posted you would see that I too pointed out that it's a combination of factors that makes Garchomp too strong.

There are things faster, there are things stronger, and there are pokemon with better typing, but Garchomp's got it all, speed, defense, attack, and unparalleled STAB coverage. Just to show how much better Garchomp is than any other option in the game, let's check out his competition.

The only "fast" (90 base speed or more) Swords Dancers with reasonably high attack (lets say 110 or more)*** are Zangoose, Lucario, Scyther, Garchomp, Weavile. Garchomp is the best one, no contest.

-Zangoose has 306 speed, 361 attack, but he has lackluster movepool (EQ, close combat, shadow claw is pretty much it) and terrible defenses.

-Lucario is packing 306 speed, 350 attack. 70/70/70 defenses aren't made up for with his resistances. No useable second STAB, and can't cover all his counters with any moveset. Extreme Speed is a blessing though, helping him get the jump on the numerous faster pokemon.

-Scyther has a nice 339 speed, 350 attack. 4x stealth rock weak, and has crappy STABs. Not to mention he has weaknesses to Fire, Ice and Electric as well. Technician makes Quick Attack and Aerial Ace usable at least.

-Weavile has a great 383 speed, 372 attack. Stealth Rock weakness hurts, as does the 4x fighting weak, the fire weak, steel weak and the bug weak. Dark and Ice has nice offensive coverage, but the low base power of it's moves (112 being the highest) and it's terrible defenses make it a fairly poor sweeper. Not to mention it's weak to three priority moves: Bullet Punch, Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch.

-Then you got Garchomp, who with ZERO EV investment hits 357 HP, 226 Def and 206 SpD. Excellent defenses for a sweeper. 333 speed and 394 attack. Earthquake and Outrage are 150 and 180 base power moves respectively. His defensive typing isn't too bad either, with an immunity to electric and a resistance to rock and fire. Sand Veil isn't exactly needed on something this insanely powerful, in fact, it's overkill. Yache Berry ensures that no pokemon can outspeed and OHKO, save for Choice Band Weavile's Ice Punch.

So you got this pokemon that can run one simple moveset that hits everything with a 130 base power move minimum, coming off of 718 attack, that can't be OHKOed. Oh yeah, you've got a 80% of landing a hit on it. Good luck.


*** you'll notice that 110 attack and 90 speed is the same stats Lucario has, so don't complain and say that's too high.

 

[Syberia]

He said individually, meaning that no-one (besides yourself) has claimed that a solid, consistent reason for Garchomp to be banned exist. Only you have entertained the idea that all these things combined make it ban-worthy; everyone else has focused purely on a single factor that may or may not create personal problems for them.

Umm, what? "Garchomp is uber because of x, y, and z together" is a much better argument than "Garchomp is uber because of x, which can be played around to a certain degree."

 

[Age of Kings]

I would drop Fire Fang. I would become more vulnerable to Skarmory/Bronzong but those can be trapped with Magnezone, and aren't extremely common anyways.

Then Garchomp would actually have at least one definite counter, making the whole issue less pressing, even though said counter is pretty useless for other purposes in OU. Except for maybe DX-S.