You didn't even bother to read the first post of this thread that explains it all but you know that you have to post here to ask about it =/ my faith in humanity is lower every day.
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- Thread starter Jumpman16
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You didn't even bother to read the first post of this thread that explains it all but you know that you have to post here to ask about it =/ my faith in humanity is lower every day.
Meh i could do more or less with gchomp gone but i dont think banning SR will get anything going cuz it will cause a much more different style due to yanmega and others pokes weak to the rocks
Garchompless metagame means less sp att ev's needed and no longer needing 269 sp att, which means more ev's for defenses on Starmie/Vappy/Cresselia/Slowbro!
Also I can use Stone Edge on hippo/hyper cutter gliscor instead of stupid useless ice fang(whom I'd only use for garchomp, surprise, surprise). And Gyara cannot set-up in front of Gliscor/hippo anymore.
I like it!
Also I can use Stone Edge on hippo/hyper cutter gliscor instead of stupid useless ice fang(whom I'd only use for garchomp, surprise, surprise). And Gyara cannot set-up in front of Gliscor/hippo anymore.
I like it!
These posts seem to imply that Ice attacks are suddenly not usful anymore, which isn't true at all. Ice is still a great attacking type, and I don't know why I would shy away from using HP Ice Zapdos, Infernape, or any other ice attacks. I know I don't pack Ice attacks on my pokemon because of Garchomp, I use Ice attacks because it is a great attacking type, which gives good coverage all around.
I wonder if just one month (especially busy August) is going to be enough to see the results of the metagame changes resulting from this. I'm honestly surprised that he's taken over to such an extent that people are dumping their ice attacks just because he's gone - people will change their minds about that soon enough, and it could take a week just to find the proper balance between "keeping three Pokemon with ice attacks for Garchomp-busting" and "yay, ice isn't mandatory anymore I'M GOING TO REPLACE EVERY SINGLE ICE ATTACK". There's other big factors of change that I'm sure people are going to take a lot of time before they even bother to properly think through, too.
EDIT: I think people are overestimating how much more Dragonite/Salamence we're going to see, though. Every single person I've battled so far in the Suspect Ladder started off with SR. Even with a Rapid Spinner, it's a pain.
EDIT: I think people are overestimating how much more Dragonite/Salamence we're going to see, though. Every single person I've battled so far in the Suspect Ladder started off with SR. Even with a Rapid Spinner, it's a pain.
Sorry if my post implied that. I did not mean it like that at all.
I said people can cut back on them. I realize Salamence/Gliscor/Flygon/Dragonite/etc... are reason enough to still use Ice moves. However by cut back I meant that you will not have to ensure that 3 or more of your Pokemon carry an ice move simply to handle Garchomp. Pokemon like Hippowdon, and Gliscor can now carry a move in place of Ice Fang.
its 3 AM, and you've already made my day
I suppose that I didn't really look at movesets like "Well I need a Ice attack here for Garchomp", I more looked at "Well adding an Ice type attack here gives me some good type coverage, so I'll use it". On pokemon who have an option, such as Gliscor/Hippowdon, Ice Fang may become "less" of an option, but I don't see a huge shift to HP Grass, or any other attacks any time soon. Garchomp or not, Ice is still a great attacking type.
Exactly my point!
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I'm quickly adapting, Salamence is great, too. With a +speed nature he stops so many things that sits on the 299-307 speed rating. Lack of STAB on Earthquake sucks, but Flying type and Intimidate means I can switch into more things.
Maybe I'm going back to good old ADV team building, worrying about countering stuff instead of a "Kill their steels and let loose Garchomp" team.
I don't think I'd use HP Grass on my electrics, though. I'd still retain Ice, as Electric+Ice is still a great 2 attack combo. Electric+Grass leaves you to be walled by other Grasses.
However, most of my grass pokemon with HP Ice has switched to Fire.
However, most of my grass pokemon with HP Ice has switched to Fire.
It's the first of many steps outlined in the Order of Operations thread. We are going to test all of the Suspect pokemon one at a time in a metagame without any Suspects to see which of them, if any, break the real metagame (one without suspects) by their own individual strength. We don't have the word "centralization" in our vocabulary for these tests—we are working on undeniable characteristics of an uber, and this is how we will decide what belongs in standard and what doesn't.
I agree, and that is largely the point of my Order Of Operations and Portrait of an Uber threads, which I suggest you become familiar with. "Centralization" is a word with dubious meaning, and the bold voting process we followed for Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S was "tedious" as best. We have changed the way we are going to address Suspect pokemon, moves and clauses in the future for competitive pokemon.
I honestly don't think you've read my PR threads closely enough, because not once do I cite "centralization" as something to be looking out for, and in both threads I have orchestrated the creation of such metrics you evidently failed to see (the entire method and stages of the Suspect Test Ladder in the Operations thread and the formation of obviously uber characteristics in the Portrait thread). We are in the process of determining the solid metrics you speak of.
Considering I already have ice-type attacks on my team, the switch to HP Grass wasn't solely based on Chomp. I didn't have a grass move before, so HP grass lets me deal with Swampert, who none of my pokes have a particularly easy time with. (Especially curse sets)
I don't think there will be a major shift in HP Ice > Grass, but some pokemon can use other moves that benefit them more. A spinner Starmie can now have an easier time choosing Thunderbolt > Ice Beam. I'm not saying that ice still isn't an awesome attacking type, because it is, but other moves will now be more viable on certain Pokemon.
I don't think there will be a major shift in HP Ice > Grass, but some pokemon can use other moves that benefit them more. A spinner Starmie can now have an easier time choosing Thunderbolt > Ice Beam. I'm not saying that ice still isn't an awesome attacking type, because it is, but other moves will now be more viable on certain Pokemon.
it's about time...
That quote is a couple pages ago, but after giving the ladder a little bit of a run on my alt I must say this rings very true.
Onto other random notes, I tend to play an offensive style of play and without the addition of Garchomp it makes it tougher and easier at the same time. It becomes easier to build an offensive team without worrying about huge Garchomp problems, but also losing the ability to use Garchomp's offensive prowess hurts too. I think losing Garchomp helps some of those bulky CM pokemon become a little better off (Suicune, Celebi, Jirachi, Cresselia, etc.) as they have the ability to outspeed some of the top physical threats (Lucario/Mamoswine/Salamence) with speed EV's and a positive nature (running 285 or higher speed) and put some big damage to them without being OHKO'd in return. The area of 270-295 speed becomes VERY important when choosing your EV's as tons of offensive threats fall into that range - Salamence, Lucario, Mamoswine, Heatran, etc.
I haven't seen it at all on this new ladder but TyraniBoah can still get the job done well if you really despise the greater amount of stall teams showing up ;). Also Jolly 252 Speed/252 Attack Flame Orb Sword Dance Heracross with Megahorn/Close Combat/Stone Edge can do wonders to break up stall also since Gliscor seems to be some sort of taboo on D/P stall teams for some reason (It only walls physical Lucario, Heracross, physical Tyranitar, physical Salamence.. not major threats or anything!). An offensive play style is still very potent if you support it with the right pokemon
Why don't you take a look through the Policy Review threads, and read Jumpman's posts in this topic?
Perhaps you could be a bit less cryptic, and maybe a little more helpful, if that's not asking too much? The thread "so what **are** we looking for in a metagame anyways" received very little discussion at all, and from the threads that indirectly discussed the issue did not reach any sort of consensus. Are we looking for decentralization, or enough decentralization? Are we looking to minimize the amount of banned Pokemon, or make the least possible centralization out primary focus?
This is exactly why I asked for someone to explain it to me. I didn't think that it made sense to try to test things that will "benefit" the metagame when we don't have a clearly defined view of what change does and doesn't "benefit" the metagame, but it may make perfect sense to someone else.
This is exactly why I asked for someone to explain it to me. I didn't think that it made sense to try to test things that will "benefit" the metagame when we don't have a clearly defined view of what change does and doesn't "benefit" the metagame, but it may make perfect sense to someone else.
ive explained it a few times and im tired of repeating myself, i just posted about this today in this thread in fact
mega news: deoxys-s is being taken off the suspect test ladder shortly, sorry about your teams and all but it is the right thing to do. we will retest dx-s itself in a month or two
mega news: deoxys-s is being taken off the suspect test ladder shortly, sorry about your teams and all but it is the right thing to do. we will retest dx-s itself in a month or two
All the "undeniable characteristics of uber" have been purely power-based. Testing what a metagame is like without a Pokemon will show absolutely nothing about its power. If we haven't defined what we "want" in a metagame, how can we define what "breaks" a metagame?
This is a non sequitur. Basically, from what I've gathered your arguments are as follows:
1. There are Pokemon that may or may not be too powerful for the current metagame.
2. Therefore, we must test a metagame that does not include these border-line uber Pokemon.
This argument requires another factor to make sense, and the reasoning itself does not make sense to me. If a Pokemon is too powerful for a metagame, what do we accomplish by testing a metagame without said Pokemon?
The only sensible answer to the bolded question is that we are measuring the impact said Pokemon had on the metagame.
But how can we analyze this impact without a clear definition of what we want in a metagame?
That's why I feel that this is a non sequitur. There needs another quality for this to make sense. That quality would have to be the "purpose" of a metagame, which are undefined.
The current test of a metagame without Garchomp/Deoxys-S is an attempt to get a "suspect free" metagame. After this "suspect free" metagame has been established, the rest of the tests will occur in this metagame. For example, Latios and Latias will be tested in the "suspect free" metagame, to see if they are a suspect. Other controversial pokemon will also be tested in this metagame. What the current ban of Garchomp/Deoxys-S is doing is establishing a control, for all future tests.
This is all outlined in the order of operations thread, by the way. I suggest you take a look.
This is all outlined in the order of operations thread, by the way. I suggest you take a look.
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