I personally believe that we should send Deoxys packing, and take away SR.
It would make more pokemon viable, and open more possible Garchomp counters.
It would make more pokemon viable, and open more possible Garchomp counters.
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- Thread starter Jumpman16
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I'm having a hard time translating my thoughts into words right now. However, I can't seem to find the correct logic behind adding Pokemon after taking away 1 or 2 of them. Lets say that Garchomp/ De-S becomes banned and Lati@s become approved for OU. What does this accomplish? Now we would have to back track and see if Garchomp/ De-S is viable in this new Meta-Game.
Recently, as I assume most know, ~6 BL pokemon were added to UU. Which, to me, sort of made sense. Because why move a pokemon up when we can test pokemon above to balance things out... But, this was not the best way to do it. Obi's idea to all BL at once makes so much more sense. Except that we need to first correct the OU tier.
I'm aware that there is a Priority list on what to do in what order. Nevertheless, I feel that it is rather to slow and ineffective. So this is how I see things should be done...
1. Reset all tiers: As in nearly every Pokemon from Mew to Weedle is part of OU. Though there needs to be a line... Arceus, Girtinia, Rayquaza, Palkia, Dialga, Kyogre, Groudon, De-A, and De-D(?). Essentially the pokemon that would unquestionably be questioned for Overcentralization.
2. Wait: 2-3 month grace period to allow usuage statistics to be gathered.
3. Ban: Though I object to banning any Pokemon, I feel that there will be a need to ban a few Pokemon. Hopefully this step can be skipped.
4. Create UU Tier: Take the X% of underused pokemon and follow same process... Wait-> Ban to BL ->
5. Create NU Tier: Take the X% of underused UU pokemon. Test then Ban.
Looks simple.. though I haven't been around for to long.
In regards to the Clauses... (the important ones I guess)
Evasion: Debatable. However, I think that it is safe to assume that a majority would appreciate if this clause stays. If you are against Chomp in OU as of right now you can't argue against keeping this clause. +X Evasion takes out the 'skill(?)' required to compete. Though some argue that Defense is superior to Boost. It can be broken with Crit Hits and simply be by passed by hitting the weaker Defense. Whislt Evasion 'randomly' activates for all attacks and the user can only effectively be taken down by 3 things... Lock On/ Forsieght/ Odor Slueth, Never Miss Attacks, or of course get 'lucky' and hit through the Evasion.
Item: Indeed, the metagame would be different with an Item Clause. I'll guesstimate the most used items... Lum, Leftovers (#1), Life Orb, Choice Specs/Scarf/Band, and.. Expert Belt. All of which of course have thier uses and such. Long story short Item clause would only effect a handfull of pokes and there should'nt be much debate about this.
OHKO: Perhaps even trickier then determining the Evasion Clause. 30% Chance to OHKO anything is Scary (Sheer Cold) and you can get up to 16 shots to do so with some pokemon (Nidoking= Fissure+HornDrill).
Scenario: you have X named poke weak to Earthquake. I send out Nidoking.
You of course don't want X to eat EQ so you switch in Moltress. Nidoking used Horn Drill! But it missed! You don't lose a poke this time but now you have be prepared to sacrifice a Poke just to have a chance to by pass HornDrill/ Fissure. Point being, though I would REALLY REALLY would like to run my Fissure + Horn Drill Nidoking Ill bite the bullet and say that OHKO is something that we just dont need.
Sleep Clause: No need to argue this one.. I assume so. No one likes 6x Sleeping Pokemon.
Wow, talk about a rant. Sorta. I encourage someone to say that this is wrong for X reasons. I assume to many things... But i assume this may not be the time or place for this but I have held back from many conversations about these topics. I feel like the answers are obvious and people are to ignorant to aknowledge them. Though I may indeed be the ignorant one.
Oh, while I was typeing this I remember a qoute from Batman: the Dark Knight...
"Look what I did, to this city with a few drums of gas and a couple of bullets. Hm? You know what, you know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I tell the press that like a gang banger, will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all, part of the plan. But when I say that one, little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!"
Point being, that if a definante plan is followed nobody could not/ should not complain (once again I assume) because there is a known common goal insight. Keeping things simplistic and in reach will always draw a crowd. Just because it isnt simple doesn't mean it is ineffective...
Again, take a look at the order of operations topic. If you happen to take a look at stage 3, (all stages are outlined here), you will see that we plan on testing every suspect together, as a group, after they have been tested individually. Really, stuff like this could be avoided if you just took a little time to do some background reading on what is actually happening.
Why would you post that in a thread that's about 50% people complaining about the definite plan that the Suspect Test ladder is following?
I could just say ban chompy but then I'd be both selfish and dumb. I use dragonite and it would get rid of the competition. To tell the truth I dont see many problems in using chompy because well I dont have many problems with it when the situation calls for a strategy against it. Besides if you ban chompy you may as well ban everything that's close to it thereby eliminating most, if not all, of the ou pokemon. They each require a strategy against that makes them ou. There are some that can even go above chompy in terms of strength and therefore require a more powerful strategy to go against.
No by the way bolt beam hits all those things, is more powerful and does more in a general term than HP rock.
No by the way bolt beam hits all those things, is more powerful and does more in a general term than HP rock.
Add me as another who wants to give no Stealth Rock a go. What's the point of Stealth Rock if every team uses it? Why not start each match with Stealth Rocks already set up to save a turn? It wouldn't be a problem if it were like Spikes where only a few Pokemon learn it and can use it effectively. However with Stealth Rock, too many Pokemon get it.
Good move Jump.
It's not a bad idea and alot of people seem to like it but if he (or she for mine) is ultimately banned then who will be next. Gyarados might be next. What about Infernape. Oh don't forget Items too. Scarfs might be one. Well i think i should shut up now. I don't feel like getting flamed for having an opinion.
Unfortunatly, banning Garchomp doesn't allow Infernape to suddenly OHKO Cresselia with Fire Blast, and Gyarados doesn't mysteriously gain the ability to OHKO Starmie with Earthquake. Nothing steps into Garchomp's niche, because nothing can do what Garchomp can.
Awesome, no more Deoxys-S + Gliscor + Metagross/Lucario teams. Atleast on the suspect ladder.
While this is true bolt beam provides more coverage as well as does SE damage to chompy. If your thinking about that little combo with the recover and rapid spin I have one of those and I managed to get along with it. The only thing that got me to get rid of that combo was that starmie wasnt doing any damage without a stab move. If I had used hp rock on that moveset chances are I probly wouldn't have done as much with it.
So what do you have against SR? It doesn't centralize anything but of course its advantage from one small thing called focus sash. Focus sash is an annoying thing, and if SR is banned then rapid spinners will rarely be used.
I don't understand what's so good about garchomp without tyranitar or hippowdon. Unless sandveil is active it is easily beaten by either ice or dragon attacks. If it's because yache berry on a garchomp is such a simple but effective strategy then that is just silly. One thing I see a huge lack of here is evidence. Without evidence how am I supposed to believe that it really is supposed to be banned. I've battled against it and used one myself and there are many pokemon that can OHKO, yache berry included, it and it doesn't survive much when it switches on a strong attack either. Why would a vote be so essential without evidence to support it? I say gyarados should be considered as a suspect because it does almost the same thing garchomp does except with different resistances and a more reliable ability. I agree with lati@s though because it's base speed and special attack is just silly with draco meteor and much more silly with its special item equiped, which is something garchomp can't do, and don't go with the "it could carry outrage" either because it's stuck on that move for 2-3 turns.
I don't understand what's so good about garchomp without tyranitar or hippowdon. Unless sandveil is active it is easily beaten by either ice or dragon attacks. If it's because yache berry on a garchomp is such a simple but effective strategy then that is just silly. One thing I see a huge lack of here is evidence. Without evidence how am I supposed to believe that it really is supposed to be banned. I've battled against it and used one myself and there are many pokemon that can OHKO, yache berry included, it and it doesn't survive much when it switches on a strong attack either. Why would a vote be so essential without evidence to support it? I say gyarados should be considered as a suspect because it does almost the same thing garchomp does except with different resistances and a more reliable ability. I agree with lati@s though because it's base speed and special attack is just silly with draco meteor and much more silly with its special item equiped, which is something garchomp can't do, and don't go with the "it could carry outrage" either because it's stuck on that move for 2-3 turns.
This is excellent, I'm glad we're taking steps in the right direction. I must admit that battling without having to give Garchomp and Deoxys-S a second thought is rather refreshing, but we'll see how it goes.
I feel something is wrong.
OU is considered As 'B'
And Uber Is 'S'.
There should be a higher class where garchomp could fit well, the 'A' class.
Maybe Call it Extremely Over Used? EOU?
Because Garchomp Is not a pokemon that can't be killed, it has its counter, but its hard to kill. It doesn't deserve to be banned or moved to Uber. There should be a class between OU and Uber. It is EOU, we can also move a couple of pokemon To EOU, to have a new tier.
Garchomp has its counters like others. its just he is too good to be in OU and Not good enough for Uber. That is my point.
Xcellcior.
OU is considered As 'B'
And Uber Is 'S'.
There should be a higher class where garchomp could fit well, the 'A' class.
Maybe Call it Extremely Over Used? EOU?
Because Garchomp Is not a pokemon that can't be killed, it has its counter, but its hard to kill. It doesn't deserve to be banned or moved to Uber. There should be a class between OU and Uber. It is EOU, we can also move a couple of pokemon To EOU, to have a new tier.
Garchomp has its counters like others. its just he is too good to be in OU and Not good enough for Uber. That is my point.
Xcellcior.
....Because unlike Garchomp, they can actually be countered. Read up on why it was put up onto the suspect ladder.
What are these counters? Can't think of anything outside of Ubers (which it sounds like you wouldn't want to move down to this new tier due to Garchomp not performing well in it supposedly, which would make it true in that tier as well; nothing can switch in safely to Garchomp and therefore it can't be countered).Xcellcior said:
And if there were Pokemon in OU that could counter Garchomp, it wouldn't have been a suspect, and again there would be no need for this "EOU" tier, since it doesn't change anything and would be moving Pokemon out of OU (these counters that Garchomp has) that work just fine there.
okay, haha, this is the last time anyone will suggest other pokemon to "ban" in this thread. those of you who continue to do this are missing the point so much that it makes anyone who remotely understands what the Suspect Test Ladder and the steps it is supposed to follow groan. here are the reasons posts like the one above are so aggravating:
1) it implies that the Suspect Test Ladder reflects what the staff is doing with the real standard metagame, when in actuality we purposely have created a second ladder specifically to keep people from bitching about us "banning things" from the real metagame and disrupting it
2) it implies the staff is banning pokemon only because it is good, since no one has ever, ever complained or even implied that Suicune is a Suspect at all in DP, and the last time anyone stated that Cresselia was a Suspect was literally in 2006 when it was still called Kureseria
3) it implies that the poster has not bothered to read any of the topics in Policy Review, which honestly wouldn't be so bad if it had not been suggested in this own thread to read those threads about five times now
4) it implies that, even if it is true that Cresselia or Suicune or Lucario or Jirachi are actually suspect, we have enough information on the Suspect Test Ladder, the exact and entire purpose for which the Suspect Test Ladder is being initially used, to be able to make those claims
Stop it. Nobody yet knows whether the game without Garchomp and Deoxys-S still has Suspects because this part of the Test hasn't even been in effect for 12 hours yet. And more importantly, for the last time, this is a test. We aren't "banning" anything yet. The Suspect Test Ladder exists to not disrupt the standard metagame. So stop suggesting new Suspects without literally any evidence, and stop pretending that the Suspect Test Ladder is the real ladder. We're trying to figure this all out one stage at a time. I'm pasting these steps below so everyone can be clear:
Stage 1: Analysis of a single Suspect in August 2008's standard metagame (since Garchomp and Deoxys-S are definitely suspects, this is all the wording that's needed)
Stage 2: Our assessment of Uber or OU for any Suspect's impact on a suspect-free August 2008 metagame, following the respective Suspect's completion of Stage 1.
Stage 3: Analysis of all the Suspects in July 2008's standard metagame with the knowledge of which are considered Uber and OU in the Suspect-free August-2008 metagame.
There. Now none of you have any reason to be confused or unclear as to what we are doing. Don't suggest additional pokemon as Suspects as if this is a random process or as if any of us can know if there are any more efore a considerable amount of time played on the Suspect Test Ladder without Garchomp and Deoxys-S. Don't forget that this is a test for now, and nothing else. And don't post things like "oh I never had a problem with Garchomp" either, because there is hardly anything that speaks more to your own ignorance than this statement. Besides the fact that you're free to demonstrate to what extent you "don't have a problem with Garchomp" on the real ladder (fun fact: I've never seen the names of anyone who has said this in this thread on the Smogon OU Leaderboard, which says something), it is ignorant regardless because even I can plainly see why Garchomp is definitely a Suspect and I don't even play. This is the last warning, and I and the staff will be infracting and deleting any posts that indicate the poster has failed to read this post.
I read the post, but the thing is even though this is just a test if votes without evidence caused a bannation of certain pokemon then that's just wrong. I came here to play competitively, but so far I have been dissapointed. I've seen people who use garchomp completely wrong and I've seen others who know what they're doing and sweep with them. Garchomp's moveset is very limited. It's dragon/ground/fire/rock and you always know which it's going to use unless your opponent predicts. Gengar beats it one on one unless it tries outrage or is choice banded then there are different counters for those. Don't just test out a game without one pokemon because it can perform many different functions because that's not fair. You only see the outside, a garchomp, and if many people use a garchomp, even if all of their uses vary, then it's centralized. It's just like SR, if it works best for you then use it. If you gave me evidence that proves garchomp should be tested then I won't complain but until then I'm just going to keep questioning.
I believe one of the biggest reasons it is tested is because of how much it *dominates* the ladder month in and month out. After taking the lead as the #1 Pokemon in Blissey, the only thing that happened was Garchomp became even MORE popular (Garchomp's lead over gengar, who is #2, in terms of %s are increasing month by month)
I believe this is "evidence enough" that Garchomp should be "tested" and that Garchomp may indeed be "uber" - try reading the few PR threads on the portraits of an uber and definition of uber for our discussion on that
Another "evidence" that we may have is - complaints from the top users. People have complained about Garchomp forever, and these people include some of the top players of the game - while they weren't able to put together a coherent argument as of yet, I think that top players thinking garchomp to be "broken" is also evidence enough.
There is a reason they call them over used, because they are over used. That gives no reason for testing them out just because they're being used more than the others unless you're saying gengar is uber, which I doubt your implying. I hate people who talk with ignorance even if you say they're good I honestly don't care. Every team has a weakness and if garchomp can take advantage of that weakness with its many different functions then they really aren't as good as you think they are. If you can't give me a reason why they should be tested then why test them? I don't want to hear what other people bicker about, just give me a reason.
Ya know It's funny how Gliscor has jumped in usage, because LUCARIO of all friggin pokemon has extremely jumped in usage. With garchomp gone everyone is realizing how much of a threat Lucario is. So I started to run HPIce-less pokemon and realized that I still NEED HP ice for Gliscor. God pokemon sucks.
Also I'm glad to see Doe-e out of Suspect too. I'd say Scizor/Metagross will decline in usage, and less offensive teams.
Also I'm glad to see Doe-e out of Suspect too. I'd say Scizor/Metagross will decline in usage, and less offensive teams.
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