DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Caelum]

Crunch is Aerodactyl's best weapon aganst Claydol FYI, especially since there aren't too many reasons to run Ice Fang in UU.

yeah. I guess I've only seen a few Aero's with Crunch so I forgot about it, which is odd since I run Aerodactyl with Crunch :/. Mine as well I suppose

Jolly Crunch vs. 252 HP/ 252 Def Bold Claydol: 41% - 50% (possible 2HKO with SR but very, very unlikely (less than 1%))

Adamant Crunch vs. 252 HP/ 252 Def Bold Claydol: 46% - 54% (likely 2HKO w/ SR (59% chance).

Wow, Claydol is even a worse counter when I look at that.

 

[gengod]

If you're so scared of CB Aero then learn to predict. Aerodactyl does not have that much Attack in comparison to other UU sweepers and the pokemon listed as counters/switch-ins are all slow, the fastest probaly being Claydol so Aero's Speed doesn't matter as much in comparison. Take Sharpedo for example who has 15 more base attack and still outspeeds all of the pokemon listed there and for the most part actually has an easier time with most of them in comparison to Aerodactyl.

I also don't see why you chose the 5 pokemon I said that have reliable recovery and chose to only analyse them as counters, every pokemon I presented on that list is a good switch-in/counter. It should only be obvious that if you take 51%-60% from a Stone Edge on your switch to Meganium then you will know its CB and you should predict accordingly from there.

Right now, you're argument against Aerodactyl is that its CB set (which is currently not the most common set) which will always hit the switch in with a Super Effective move while almost always having Stealth Rock down is "broken". Aerodactyl is good but not the overbearing threat that you're making it seem to be.

 

[Cynthia]

Meganium actually does have rather reliable recovery in Synthesis, the PP is the only issue. Meganium also lacks the ability to OHKO Aerodactyl and has to run some SpAtk in order to 2HKO, making it an iffy counter. Also, Aerodactyl may be running Aerial Ace which would definitely 2HKO.

Aerodactyl's speed allows it to outspeed everything not scarfed in UU, while Sharpedo's somewhat mediocre speed forces it to wear a Scarf or thngs like Ninetales/Scyther/Froslass etc. can easily revenge kill sets lacking Aqua Jet. Aerodactyl also has defenses that aren't totally horrible and more switchins overall, Sharpedo can't even switch in to predicted Surfs from Pokemon with no SpAtk EV's. It might be marginally better than Aerodactyl in wall breaking, but Aerodactyl' other advantages more than make up for this.

 

[gengod]

Meganium actually does have rather reliable recovery in Synthesis, the PP is the only issue. Meganium also lacks the ability to OHKO Aerodactyl and has to run some SpAtk in order to 2HKO, making it an iffy counter. Also, Aerodactyl may be running Aerial Ace which would definitely 2HKO.

Meganium may lack the ability to 2HKO but it does have access to Reflect which can allow it to directly take on Aerodactyl.

Aerodactyl's speed allows it to outspeed everything not scarfed in UU, while Sharpedo's somewhat mediocre speed forces it to wear a Scarf or thngs like Ninetales/Scyther/Froslass etc. can easily revenge kill sets lacking Aqua Jet. Aerodactyl also has defenses that aren't totally horrible and more switchins overall, Sharpedo can't even switch in to predicted Surfs from Pokemon with no SpAtk EV's. It might be marginally better than Aerodactyl in wall breaking, but Aerodactyl' other advantages more than make up for this.

If you look a little closer at my post you will see that i'm not directly comparing Sharpedo to Aerodactyl. I'm only comparing them in terms of their counters/switch-ins to show how Caelum's argument for Aerodactyl doesn't only hold true for Aerodactyl but for other UU sweepers as well, and how it may actually be harder to find good 100% counters/switch-ins for other sweepers in UU.

 

[Cynthia]

My point was that being able to directly counter Sharpedo is less important than countering Aerodactyl, since Aerodactyl has many advantages over it and several other sweepers, namely being faster.

Another thing to note is that a Pokemon can have UU counters but still be too powerful for that tier. Hitmontop is a very solid Tyranitar counter, but putting Tyranitar in UU would likely centralize the game around Sandstorm, Tyranitar, and its counters. I'm still trying to figure out whether Aerodactyl fits into this category or not.

I also want to bring up discussion of a BL I think deserves some testing, Honchkrow. Yes, it has very high attack and good special attack with access to Nasty Plot, but also a lot of weaknesses. It has low defenses, is weak to Stealth Rock, and has rather low speed for a sweeper. It can make up for its lack of speed with Sucker Punch, but this requires prediction and can be foiled through the use of faster priority moves, status moves, statups etc. Physical sets are walled by any steel type, especially Steelix. Special sets vary more depending on the Hidden Power, but Clefable is a generally good choice, as is Drapion. I just don't think it would be overpowering.

 

[umbarsc]

Aerodactyl's speed is what I'm worried about. Almost all of its potential counters are 3HKOed by its attacks (or 2HKO even), so if you had taken a bit of damage, it can proceed to take it down then slaughter everything. Basically, every team without a fast Scarfer is Aerodactyl weak.

 

[gengod]

My point was that being able to directly counter Sharpedo is less important than countering Aerodactyl, since Aerodactyl has many advantages over it and several other sweepers, namely being faster.

As I said in my previous post my argument was not about Sharpedo directly, I merely used it as an example to show how Caelums argument could have easily been used for other UU sweepers.

I also want to bring up discussion of a BL I think deserves some testing, Honchkrow. Yes, it has very high attack and good special attack with access to Nasty Plot, but also a lot of weaknesses. It has low defenses, is weak to Stealth Rock, and has rather low speed for a sweeper. It can make up for its lack of speed with Sucker Punch, but this requires prediction and can be foiled through the use of faster priority moves, status moves, statups etc. Physical sets are walled by any steel type, especially Steelix. Special sets vary more depending on the Hidden Power, but Clefable is a generally good choice, as is Drapion. I just don't think it would be overpowering.

Honchcrow i'm not really sure of. You make great points for its inclusion but it's HP does make up for its defences somewhat and i could picture a Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Hp Fighting, Roost, Taunt/Sub set being incredibly hard to deal with, or possibly a mix set with HP Fighting, Drill Peck, Sucker Punch, Roost. I'm kind of borderline on this

Aerodactyl's speed is what I'm worried about. Almost all of its potential counters are 3HKOed by its attacks (or 2HKO even), so if you had taken a bit of damage, it can proceed to take it down then slaughter everything. Basically, every team without a fast Scarfer is Aerodactyl weak.

Every team without a fast scarfer is Aerodacty weak? Please tell me your joking. Also i'm sure that if a pokemon can switch in 2-3 times while being a threat to Aerodactyl then i'm sure it qualifies as a counter or at the very least a great switch-in.

 

[umbarsc]

I am not. I should also mention Aqua Jet/Ice Shard/Electrode (all rarities in UU), but every counter you listed will be taking at least 40% from most Aerodactyl. If they lose a little bit of health (or have already switched in on Aerodactyl once), they can be taken out in two hits, and then Aerodactyl will likely outspeed your entire team. The same could be said for Swellow, but Swellow has counters that won't be taking over 20% from it on the switch-in, which means that with smart playing Swellow can be worthless.

 

[IggyBot]

which means that with smart playing Swellow can be worthless.

I fail to see how this applys to Swellow, but not Aerodactyl? If Aerodactyl is using a Choice Band to gain the power to do THAT much damage, then with smart playing, you can easily switch into it. If Aerodactyl is using a Life Orb, then the weaker attacks means that more pokemon can switch in. I don't see what the big problem is, since Aerodactyl can also be beaten with smart play.

 

[Aldaron]

Aerodactyl hasn't really been a problem for me so far.

It's that damn Venusaur that has been pissing me off.

I think we're papermoning a little too much here guys. Just play; seriously, Aerodactyl hasn't been an issue for me at all.

This bastard Venusaur though...

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Aerodactyl is not going to be able to strip 40% from its switch ins all of the time. Claydol and Steelix resist 2 out of 3 of Aero's most damaging attacks. While they may not be as surefire as counters as Blissey is to Starmie, with Aero's tendency to die early thanks to Life Orb recoil, mediocre defenses, and weakness to Stealth Rock, they don't really need to be.

 

[Morm]

I agree. Venusaur is just a monster. Aerodactyl, from my experience, has so far been just a smidge too powerful. I run a team of tanks/walls and aero just tears through all of them late game. Manectric seems useless as my sweeper since Aerodactyl just laughs in his face.

I'd also like add that weezing has yet to do anything to impress me in UU. Seems like he'll be a good fit thus far.

 

[umbarsc]

I fail to see how this applys to Swellow, but not Aerodactyl? If Aerodactyl is using a Choice Band to gain the power to do THAT much damage, then with smart playing, you can easily switch into it. If Aerodactyl is using a Life Orb, then the weaker attacks means that more pokemon can switch in. I don't see what the big problem is, since Aerodactyl can also be beaten with smart play.

Standard Swellow can do absolutely nothing to Steelix, Aggron, Probopass, Relicanth, etc. Standard Aerodactyl 3HKOs the metagame. You fail to see a difference? Life Orb Aerodactyl still maintains most of the important 2HKOs/3HKOs.

You tell us that it can be beaten with smart play, but you don't tell us HOW it can be beaten with smart play. "Predict around the Choice Bander", well what if it holds a Life Orb? Life Orb is perfectly viable and applies to my argument as well. Aerodactyl is like the Deoxys-e of UU in that it will be bringing Pokemon from 70% to 0%, but unlike Deoxys-e it has no Bronzong or Metagross to keep it at bay.

 

[IggyBot]

Standard Swellow can do absolutely nothing to Steelix, Aggron, Probopass, Relicanth, etc. Standard Aerodactyl 3HKOs the metagame. You fail to see a difference? Life Orb Aerodactyl still maintains most of the important 2HKOs/3HKOs.

You tell us that it can be beaten with smart play, but you don't tell us HOW it can be beaten with smart play. "Predict around the Choice Bander", well what if it holds a Life Orb? Life Orb is perfectly viable and applies to my argument as well. Aerodactyl is like the Deoxys-e of UU in that it will be bringing Pokemon from 70% to 0%, but unlike Deoxys-e it has no Bronzong or Metagross to keep it at bay.

Steelix comes into Stone Edge and Crunch, taking a maximum of 17% from a CB Stone Edge. Earthquake from a Life Orber does a mere 40% maximum, while Steelix will OHKO with Gyro Ball. If Aerodactyl switches out, Steelix can actually switch into Earthquake, and still have enough HP to threaten Aero again.

Meganium can make CB Stone Edge a 3HKO, and also runs Reflect to further help deal with Aerodactyl, as well as having a reliable 50% recovery attack.

Claydol resists Stone Edge and is immune to Earthquake. If you're worried about Crunch, you could simply switch here, and go to Steelix. Smart play indeed.

Weezing is also 3HKO'd by CB Stone Edge.

I could probably come up with more if you want.

 

[Pneuma]

My only comment is to not forget intimidators as counters to Aero.
Granbull, Luxray, Hitmontop, and even Mawile can screw with it just by showing up. All have ~90 base defense with variable (low) HP.

'Top is usually the best since Aero has no good flying STAB and ice/rock/dark are resisted. Aerial Ace hurts, though max attack CB intimidated to max/max 'Top is only 47-55%.
Aimed at max/max Luxray instead is only 11-13%. And a Stone Edge to this Luxray is only 36-42%.

The 'Top can turn around and KO by Fake Out followed by Close Combat with some attack or SR (the CC doing max70% from 0att to 0hp/0def aero).
The Luxray easily OHKOs with minor att investment or a held item or SR.

These calcs are all very rough. Grain of salt, YMMV, etc. Try it out.

 

[Mystica]

The only think that bothers me with Aerodactyl counters, is that none of them have recovery moves besides Weezing... somewhat. Don't you think that could be a problem? I mean ya Claydol can switch in but is 2hko's and Steelix is 3hko'd. Ugh its just frustrating.

 

[OvaRoa]

Venu has never scratched my UU team, and I don't have a specific counter on there eithier.

Has Steelix been discussed before?

 

[Age of Kings]

Steelix has been discussed plenty of times. The verdict: Why would there be a problem with it? Most of what people have against it is usage....if anything, it should be counted as beneficial since it is a complete stop to things that would otherwise wreak havoc (Absol, Swellow, etc). Before it was introduced, I believe Probopass/Bastiodon/Aggron were used against those.

 

[umbarsc]

Those are all better choices against Absol due to Fire Blast.

Steelix comes into Stone Edge and Crunch, taking a maximum of 17% from a CB Stone Edge. Earthquake from a Life Orber does a mere 40% maximum, while Steelix will OHKO with Gyro Ball. If Aerodactyl switches out, Steelix can actually switch into Earthquake, and still have enough HP to threaten Aero again.

Meganium can make CB Stone Edge a 3HKO, and also runs Reflect to further help deal with Aerodactyl, as well as having a reliable 50% recovery attack.

Claydol resists Stone Edge and is immune to Earthquake. If you're worried about Crunch, you could simply switch here, and go to Steelix. Smart play indeed.

Weezing is also 3HKO'd by CB Stone Edge.

I could probably come up with more if you want.

The problem with every single Pokemon you listed, however, is that they are 3HKOed, and nearly all lack recovery. That means that if they switch in once and force Aerodactyl out, they can't come back in. That holds true for a lot of Pokemon in UU, except they don't outspeed the entire metagame bar Scarfers or Electrode.

Saying "beat it with prediction" is a very shaky argument because if you DO mispredict against it, even once, you will lose, unless you Scarf something that loses a ton of destructive power when carrying a Scarf. If your Steelix had already taken a CB Earthquake from Aggron, or your Claydol had to take two Close Combats from Hitmonlee before killing it with Psychic, then your whole argument goes out the window.

On paper, Aerodactyl has several viable counters. In realistic late-game conditions, though, Aerodactyl is nearly impossible to stop without a fast Scarfer.

 

[gengod]

Those are all better choices against Absol due to Fire Blast.

They are all worse choices due to Rock Smash.

Saying "beat it with prediction" is a very shaky argument because if you DO mispredict against it, even once, you will lose, unless you Scarf something that loses a ton of destructive power when carrying a Scarf. If your Steelix had already taken a CB Earthquake from Aggron, or your Claydol had to take two Close Combats from Hitmonlee before killing it with Psychic, then your whole argument goes out the window.

Saying if you mispredict against it once you will lose is a gross exaggeration. And your examples don't say much about Aerodactyl as I can easily repeat what you said for a number of pokemon in UU. If your Aggron got OHKOed by a Propobass before Swellow was sent out or your Claydol took a few hits before their Life Orbed Hitmonlee came out, or your Blastoise took some damage from a CB Crunch from a Sharpedo before DD Altaria was sent out. etc...

On paper, Aerodactyl has several viable counters. In realistic late-game conditions, though, Aerodactyl is nearly impossible to stop without a fast Scarfer

This is a pointless argument as can be said for just about any sweeper regardless of tier.

I might like to add that you should probaly read up on a few of the points i'm now going to outline from Tangerines stickied thread on how to argue and compare them to your arguments and see how they fare.

Some people simply list facts to "back up their argument" - the most common Pokemon this argument applied to regards Garchomp. People simply list its base stats and its movepool and the fact that "it is uncounterable" and then concludes that it is uber. This is a logical leap. A full argument must avoid these leaps and lead users step by step into why the argument holds and how it applies to a definition. This is analogous to assuming that "Well this baseball player hit 60 home runs, he must be on steroids". Not only is there a great measure of uncertainty that looms throughout such a statement, but such a statement does nothing for the discussion.

1) Counters are not the only way to play the game. Note that there is so much more to the game than using "counters" to deal with a Pokemon. There are other ways to switch in safely and be an immediate threat to the opposing Pokemon without carrying a counter to a specific Pokemon. There are other ways to deal with a threat without switching in. If Pokemon is supposedly build around "predictions" then I do recommend that people free themselves from this mentality where everything must have counters and presumably act like it is the only way to play the game. Attempting to counter everything is a silly task in itself in this metagame anyway as previously mentioned in many threads, including stickies.

3) A 6 vs 6 or 6 1 vs 1 matches? Many arguments still seem to boil down to this weird idea that Pokemon is a series of 6 1 vs 1 matches and that every Pokemon must find a way to beat its counters (an attitude prevalent in WiFi, especially with its fetish for useless Hidden Powers). Many good players talk of synergy - but where is this "synergy" when they are discussing bans and specific Pokemon? Many times people argue that this Pokemon being used in a certain way is "too much" for one reason or another - but how does that matter in a team match? Many people fail to "complete" the argument, so to speak.

 

[Kagster123]

A defensively ev'd, rest-talk Poliwrath works wonders. The only attack useable against it is Earthquake. It resists stone edge, crunch, and ice fang.

I've never seen thunder fang and aerial ace though. the four moves at the top are the most common imo.

 

[umbarsc]

They are all worse choices due to Rock Smash.

That depends on how common Rock Smash is. I hardly ever see it on Absol because the three Rock/Steels are so uncommon. Fire Blast, Psycho Cut, and Sucker Punch are almost necessities to avoid being walled by Weezing/Steelix, and Sucker Punch is just so useful to have. Pursuit and Night Slash seem like much better options in the last slot then a move that hits certain uncommon Pokemon.

This is a pointless argument as can be said for just about any sweeper regardless of tier.

Really? If Skarmory's health gets lowered to the point where it dies to, say, Breloom's Focus Punch, Breloom now will sweep easily huh?

Saying if you mispredict against it once you will lose is a gross exaggeration. And your examples don't say much about Aerodactyl as I can easily repeat what you said for a number of pokemon in UU. If your Aggron got OHKOed by a Propobass before Swellow was sent out or your Claydol took a few hits before their Life Orbed Hitmonlee came out, or your Blastoise took some damage from a CB Crunch from a Sharpedo before DD Altaria was sent out. etc...

Do those Pokemon need to be countered? You're not playing right if you give Altaria free set-ups, Hitmonlee's only weapon against faster Pokemon is Mach Punch which doesn't effect Ghosts and is resisted by 4 other types. The Swellow example was a good one but that's specific and an actual strategy unlike Aerodactyl's counter losing a bit of health, allowing it to be killed by Aerodactyl, which is then quite hard to stop unless you pack a fast Scarfer. Also, Swellow can be revenge-killed by Aeordactyl itself.

I might like to add that you should probaly read up on a few of the points i'm now going to outline from Tangerines stickied thread on how to argue and compare them to your arguments and see how they fare.

Only the second quote hurts my argument.

The first paragraph states that simply listing facts then stating something is/isn't banned without conclusively explaining how those facts make it uber, is not a good argument. I'm presenting an argument, I'm not saying "Aerodactyl has stats of X and a movepool of X therefore it needs to be banned." I'm saying "Aerodactyl has stats of X and a movepool of X which means that it can 2-3HKO most of the proposed counters and outspeeds almost the entire metagame without situational and ineffective Scarfers, making it very hard to stop".

The second paragraph states that the fact that something has no complete counters does not automatically make it overpowered. This is sort of a good counter-argument, but it's Aerodactyl's lack of perfectly solid counters combined with his speed that makes me argue that he's BL.

For the third argument,

Many arguments still seem to boil down to this weird idea that Pokemon is a series of 6 1 vs 1 matches and that every Pokemon must find a way to beat its counters

Seems to hurt your argument.

 

[IggyBot]

Umbarsc, I was merely responding to this part of your post:

If they lose a little bit of health (or have already switched in on Aerodactyl once), they can be taken out in two hits, and then Aerodactyl will likely outspeed your entire team. The same could be said for Swellow, but Swellow has counters that won't be taking over 20% from it on the switch-in, which means that with smart playing Swellow can be worthless.

I just showed you that quite a few UU pokemon can also switch into Aerodactyl, not take more than 20%ish, and threaten in, assuming you play "smartly". Don't say "Swellow can be beaten with smart play" and then tell me to not use prediction in my argument (which I used very little of, by the way).

 

[Salem1]

Swellow doesn't have anything against Rock nor Steel, that's all that matters. Aerodactyl does. As for Rock Smash on Absol, you're not going to find it useful I think. Magic Coat allows you to put out stuff like Ninetales if they're threatening to use Hypnosis when Leafeon or something has BP'ed a couple of SD's to Absol. And as for Fire Blast or whatever, that's not very practical because it still won't dent Steelix, it can miss, and Steelix will 2KO you. If you're not happy with Magic Coat, try Thunder Wave or Will-o-Wisp, I think their uses are apparent.

Anyway, bringing down Aerodactyl raises the questions of why pokes such as Rampardos, Crobat, Flygon etc. were not bringed down as well? I've actually been using Rampardos in a Mono-Rock UU Team lately, and I can tell you that it is not BL. Not by far.

 

[Fiskebollen]

tbh, I don't quite get all the controversy around Aerodactyl. Sure, I respect his combination of fantastic speed, strong offensive moves and good attack (though things like Absol laugh at his base attack...), but I've never found it to be that threatening. Something to watch out for, sure, but it can be dealt with.