Interested in starting a metagame that combines all/most tiers

StrikeJP

I've had ideas floating through my head lately of a metagame that would combine Uber, OU, BL, and UU. I believe this idea has been brought up on occasion on Smogon, although I don't know if it was ever fully discussed.

Now some of you may be reading this and thinking I'm absolutely crazy. Afterall, there are already plenty of difficulties in finding a well balanced OU metagame of approximately 50 or so Pokemon. However, I think that by opening up as many Pokemon possibilities as possible, it could create a really fun and competitive battling environment.

First thing I'd like to mention, I'm not trying to replace the current metagame. My idea would be more of a complimentary metagame, if anything.

Now the main question would be: how would we go about creating such a metagame? The most obvious solution I came up with would involve 3 things:

1. Level Cap- My idea here would be to start at a basic level cap for each tier. For example, the Uber tier could only go up to lvl.80, the OU tier to lvl.90, the BL tier lvl.95, and UU could stay at lvl.100.

Now from a stats perspective, let's look at two similar Ground type Pokemon, one from Uber and one from BL, Groudon and Donphan:

Lvl. 80 Groudon- 274HP/ 269Att/ 227Def/ 190Spd/ 189SpAtt/ 173SpDef
Lvl. 95 Donphan- 305HP/ 262Att/ 235Def/ 141Spd/ 148SpAtt/ 148SpDef

With my suggested level caps, all of a sudden Donphan isn't looking too bad compared to Groudon. Now I know Pokemon aren't all about stats. It's about the moves, abilities, and items they have too. Which brings me to my next two points.

2. Item/ability Ban- Some items make a Pokemon difficult to deal with or simply broken. For example, Lati@s wouldn't be able to have Soul Dew. However, it could even extend to the current Garchomp problem (I know the jury is still out), where Yache Berry could be banned.

In the case of abilities, I could see some abilities becoming broken with the addition of new weather changes. An example of this would be Kingdra, possibly banning it's Swift Swim.

3. Move Ban- Here is where things get difficult. It becomes a slippery slope when you ban one move and then people start questioning on why not ban more? This is where I think a limit on move banning would prove beneficial. Perhaps, to start there could be a limit of 3 moves banned on Ubers. Maybe a 1 move ban on OU, BL, UU (depending on if anything is found to be broken when one of the pokemon from these tiers teams up with the weather change).

I obviously don't have all the answers as to how this metagame could work. The only thing that could give answers would be play testing. However, by possibly creating such a metagame, I could think of many interesting/fun team combinations. Obviously, some things would start out broken, and the idea would be to eventually remedy those broken things with a further level cap, item ban, ability ban, and move ban.

At this point I would be interested in hearing what others have to say about my crazy idea. Yay or nay? And for those interested on possibly developing this further, please share your ideas and perhaps a select few of us could work on this (brainstorming and theorymon) to see if we could work on creating a new metagame.
 
Well, this could work, it does sound interesting. With a level cap, it would involve even more strategy on picking what would work with what. Not a bad idea at all.
 
Thing is, back in netbattle I recall some people using level 1 kyogres and 5 UU pokemon with swift swim, and they dominated, simply because of the extremely powerful ability.
 
Pyr0 said:
Thing is, back in netbattle I recall some people using level 1 kyogres and 5 UU pokemon with swift swim, and they dominated, simply because of the extremely powerful ability.
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This is where my suggested Swift Swim ban would come into play. I realize there are 4 pokes with only Swift Swim. In which case, some further remedying would have to be done.
 
Not worth it, in my opinion.

Ubers is enough fun as it is. Lowering the power of the banned pokemon and throwing them in with everything else isn't going to make the Ubers used any less! Even if Kyogre or Groudon were restricted to Lv.1, their appeal is absolute.

Oh, this could be done, sure; It's certainly possible. I just don't see the point, unless you just want to use Kyogre and Groudon without any other Ubers to get in the way of your OU/UU pokemon... which, actually, is kind of dumb if you stop and realize that Kyogre at any kind of competitive level is a dominant force.
 
Though this would only be able to be used on a system like shoddy, right? I mean with the DS auto level, its hard to enforce this. If it can't be done on every battle system, isn't the metagame doomed to fail?
 
You really think you're the first person to think that up? Do you know the reason why we use seperate tiers rather than just using your idea? Because it was generally considered that it's better to ban a few broken Pokemon than haphazardly and arbitrarily banning a whole bunch of moves, item/Pokemon combinations, and abilities (!). Seriously, banning Swift Swim? Banning three "uber" moves? You haven't really made any attempt to seriously think this out, and it shows.
 
AA's modded server is quite like this in it's own way. I don't know if AA's changes levels but it adds some moves and abilities and bans others to put every Pokemon on an equal playing field. More than that I don't really know.
 
Pyr0 said:
Thing is, back in netbattle I recall some people using level 1 kyogres and 5 UU pokemon with swift swim, and they dominated, simply because of the extremely powerful ability.
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lol im sorry!!
i posted in some big clan forum back then urging people to use level one kyogres to set up rain!!!
 
I think Ubers/Standard should be left the way they are, but BL should be Merged with UU. This way there can be a new and fresh UU metagame and maybe even a NU metagame.
 
This isn't something that hasn't been done before. A guy once suggested for Mewtwo to be allowed at Level 83 or lower and Mew to be allowed at Level 90 or lower in RBY. For only two Pokemon, it could have worked (although his idea never really caught on), but for DP's multitude of uber Pokemon... I don't think it would.
 
I think this is a really good Idea, however Smogon isn't the place to test it out. I'd try somewhere else if I were you.
 
I'm going to poke a couple of holes in your example.

Lvl. 80 Groudon- 274HP/ 269Att/ 227Def/ 190Spd/ 189SpAtt/ 173SpDef
Lvl. 95 Donphan- 305HP/ 262Att/ 235Def/ 141Spd/ 148SpAtt/ 148SpDef

First off, Donphan is dominant only in regards to HP and Def, and only significantly in HP. In addition, there are major stat differences in the other places where there are discrepancies. Second off, Groudon has something that Donphan doesn't, and that is Drought.
 
Sunday said:
AA's modded server is quite like this in it's own way ... it adds some moves and abilities ... to put every Pokemon on an equal playing field.
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Exactly this. Amazing Ampharos started his server in the R/S/E era and was relatively successful in creating a much richer OU metagame, at least tripling the most used Pokemon compared to the standard metagame.

Now in D/P shoddy has opened the doors of a much more enhanced modded environment. Rather than just changing abilities and movepools, the Pokemon now have altered stats, new (original) moves and abilities.

Some examples:
Pidgeot: a+Air Lock, Selfdestruct, Extremespeed, Drill Peck, Iron Head, Payback, Torment;
Butterfree: a+Bad Dreams, spd: 100, Doublepowder, Air Slash, Razor Wind, Calm Mind; (Doublepowder: inflicts sleep unless a sleeping move would fail in which case it inflicts paralysis.)
Chatot: a+Soundproof, satk: 112, sdef: 55, spd: 101, Aeroblast, Extrasensory, Hydro Pump, Icy Wind;
Magcargo: a+Critical Guard, HP: 65, Haze, Rapid Spin, Muddy Water, Power Gem; (Critical Guard: 4x Weaknesses become immunities)

On the other end of the scale:
Heracross: a+Stall, a+Inadept, a-Guts, a-Swarm; (basically no more items)
Tyranitar: a+Honey Gather, spd: 5;
Garchomp: a+Inner Focus, satk: 30, sdef: 45, -Outrage;
Blissey: def: 1; (As in, Shedinja HP. Yes, a Staryu Rapid spin will OHKO!)

</shameless advertisement> :p
 
Sir Spanky said:
Exactly this. Amazing Ampharos started his server in the R/S/E era and was relatively successful in creating a much richer OU metagame, at least tripling the most used Pokemon compared to the standard metagame.

Now in D/P shoddy has opened the doors of a much more enhanced modded environment. Rather than just changing abilities and movepools, the Pokemon now have altered stats, new (original) moves and abilities.

Some examples:
Pidgeot: a+Air Lock, Selfdestruct, Extremespeed, Drill Peck, Iron Head, Payback, Torment;
Butterfree: a+Bad Dreams, spd: 100, Doublepowder, Air Slash, Razor Wind, Calm Mind; (Doublepowder: inflicts sleep unless a sleeping move would fail in which case it inflicts paralysis.)
Chatot: a+Soundproof, satk: 112, sdef: 55, spd: 101, Aeroblast, Extrasensory, Hydro Pump, Icy Wind;
Magcargo: a+Critical Guard, HP: 65, Haze, Rapid Spin, Muddy Water, Power Gem; (Critical Guard: 4x Weaknesses become immunities)

On the other end of the scale:
Heracross: a+Stall, a+Inadept, a-Guts, a-Swarm; (basically no more items)
Tyranitar: a+Honey Gather, spd: 5;
Garchomp: a+Inner Focus, satk: 30, sdef: 45, -Outrage;
Blissey: def: 1; (As in, Shedinja HP. Yes, a Staryu Rapid spin will OHKO!)

</shameless advertisement> :p
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I don't think "making all the OU Pokemon unusuable and giving really good abilities and moves to random UU and NU Pokemon" is exactly what the thread creator had in mind. Seemed like he wanted to balance the game, not ban the OUs and play an OU-style metagame with UU Pokemon.
 
While AA's mod server puts most pokemon in equal playing fields, the best ubers are made into even greater gods. For example
Arceus: a+Pressure, a+Intimidate, HP: 130, atk: 130, def: 130, satk: 130, sdef: 130, spd: 130, Roost, Explosion, Divine Wrath;
Palkia: a+Rain Dish, Waterfall, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunderpunch, Snatch, Dive;
Dialga: a+Solid Rock, Recover, Meteor Mash, Rapid Spin;
Kyogre: a+Thick Fat, Selfdestruct, Grass Knot, Power Gem, Dive;
 
Athrosu said:
Seemed like he wanted to balance the game, not ban the OUs and play an OU-style metagame with UU Pokemon.
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You obviously have no idea what the server is about or what I meant in my post. AA's server is the epitome of balance (with only 10 ubers). It doesn't do anything like ban OU's and make it UU's only or silly stuff like that, but makes sure (or tries to make) every pokemon of a similar standard, so everything is viable.

bullfrogegg8 said:
While AA's mod server puts most pokemon in equal playing fields, the best ubers are made into even greater gods. For example
Click to expand...
I think that is more of AA's idea as a joke laughing at how some of the ubers are ridiculously good compared to other stuff and just boosted them further. Nobody plays any kind of Uber metagame.
 
I suppose I really have to post here now that it has been brought up.

The ubers left as uber are, at their core design, set up to succeed so brilliantly that they would need a total rethink to be fair. They'd need ridiculous stat reductions and big cuts to their movepool. Kyogre and Groudon are even worse since their trait is broken in and of itself regardless of how weak they are made. It would be a big pain and go against the core design of all of those Pokemon; the game is far better to leave a small number of Pokemon uber. Seriously, Mewtwo/Lugia/Ho-oh/Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza/Dialga/Palkia/Giratina/Arceus. I don't think that's a lot of Pokemon being wasted, and I think the overall fun people have is increased by just making them fantastically broken (if we're not going to use them anyway... why not?).

To be clear on what I did, I changed the game itself, not the rules of the game (at least not substantially; the list of clauses and ubers was changed to be shorter). I didn't "ban" moves on any Pokemon; I completely removed them from the movepool when they were taken away.

Old OUs aren't unuseable at all... Just look at that Garchomp; does that look like a bad Pokemon to you? It lost the ability to use special attacks effectively (just removing a gimmicky surprise option it didn't need, especially since it learns Fire Fang), it lost the ability to take special hits well (its special defense is overall still on par with the majority of offensively based physical Pokemon, and now it can't Yache Berry away Ice Beams and such which is a definite good thing...), and it lost Outrage which isn't even the standard but lets it "strong arm" through some tanks it probably shouldn't be able to get past like that. In other words, it kept all its best stuff that made it a good choice for a team while losing some of the stuff that was just making it better way beyond the other Pokemon when it never really even needed it. Even Blissey (which seems very radical) is brought to a pretty fair place; it is 100% definitely still the best special wall in the game. It just now actually dies to physical things so physical attackers who can't get past Blissey aren't completely useless like in standard and it doesn't give strong incentive to use it on a large enough number of teams to seriously impact the viability of pure special sweepers.

The word random should not be used at all to describe how moves and abilities were handed out; everything was very carefully done (you will notice that most of the times Pokemon are developed to strengthen the design Gamefreak started with). I can't say the balance is actually perfect (that's impossible), but I am nearly entirely sure I got a signficantly higher percentage of viable Pokemon than standard. I think a lot of the impression that it's all about old UU and NU Pokemon without real gains in balance comes from the initial shock of seeing something like a Skarmory humiliated by a Furret, but that's just the starting bias that Skarmory is "supposed" to be better than Furret. Of course, if you're creating a game that wants to balance things, that's ridiculous. You have to try to make Furret as good as Skarmory no matter how shocking it is to players.

As per the actual mechanics changes that doubtless worry people, I can say that the biggest one I made was also the very first choice I made and one that doubtless everyone can agree with:

"First of all, I intend to make Stealth Rock ignore 4X weakness and 4X resistance. Stuff 4X weak to rock should not be useless, and the 4X resistant thing shouldn't matter too much in the long run."

So, yeah, the point of that project was to bring all fully evolved Pokemon except ubers and the very hazy case of Phione (I acted like it was NVE to save myself effort) to the same level of balance while emphasizing diversity. I obviously used very different methods than the topic here suggests, but I think it turned out quite well. Of course, it's a perpetual work in progress; things are periodically tweaked to fix balance problems as they are discovered (which would be necessary even with something like a level balance project).
 
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