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A new UU ladder

Well, I only want it to replace the main UU ladder because I think the activity issue is a large one.

But I guess it comes down to subjectively assessing whether having both ladders drastically reduce activity on the "BL" is bigger issue than people complaining about "having" to play this new BL ladder.

I'm actually fine either way, so I won't make too big a deal about it. I mean I would prefer if we eliminated the part that was made completely incorrectly, but I am also not that idealistic lol.

Anyway X-Act, I've always considered that OoO bit to be more guidelines than strict laws to adhere to.

I think we can simultaneously work on OU and UU, especially since (and correct me if I am wrong here) the endeavor to discover a definition for "powerful" (i.e. what makes something go from ou -> uber and uu -> bl) is a fruitless one.
 
X-Act said:
Regice?
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Regice can't do anything to Mismagius... and unlike Blissey, Alakazam's Specs Focus Blast 2HKOs all the time with SR up, and even has a chance with no SR. Mismagius needs a calm mind or two, but with some prediction, you could get enough special defense to have unbreakable subs from Regice's Ice Beam. Considering there's no Garchomp, you could run 329 speed Mismagius and put a little bit extra into Special Defense.

I'm a huge fan of Regice. He's one of my favourite pokemon. But, he's no Blissey, and Alakazam and Mismagius are amazing special sweepers. Oh yeah, Porygon-Z too, but he's kind of lackluster... hits hard, but is a little too slow.
 
Well, I only want it to replace the main UU ladder because I think the activity issue is a large one.
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i dont think we should punish people who like playing this current UU.

if we stop the uu ladder altogether we will have a different kind of activity issue, namely people boycotting smogon lol.

im not actually sure that would happen but come on, do it like suspect/standard. if activity becomes a problem after a month, we'll talk then..
 
Yea, like I said I won't be too adamant (not that it will make a difference if I am or am not lol)

I will be adamant, however, if (I am only using if to satisfy the pundits since I am sure it is a confident "when") this develops into a "stable" metagame.

However long that may take, once we have that, I will press to eliminate the UU ladder in its current state.

Also, I'd like to stress one important fact here...UU is considered ALL Pokemon not OU. BL is our subjectively determined (but experience based...this is absolutely vital!!) ban tier, but all BL Pokemon are UU first and then BL. They are not OU-lite or whatever preconception you might have for them.

Thinking about it this way, why would you argue against using experience to determine the BL list (this is for everyone arguing against this)?

Obviously this means that all NFE Pokemon must be tested along with the BLs.
 
Okay, "Regice is awful". </sarcasm>

I agree that UU needs to be tackled, and I agree that this is probably the best way to tackle it, but that's my personal opinion. My personal opinion can be different to what Smogon as a whole decides to do.

As people might know, I have already talked about my vision of the lower tiers privately with some people. But that doesn't mean that my vision will be realised.
 
Like I said, Regice isn't awful. But when the hardest hitting non Uber Special Attacker is flinging Choice Specs Focus Blasts at you, it's kind of hard to wall.

I like Regice a lot. I was just saying, with Blissey out of the way (and much fewer pursuit users!) Alakazam is gonna have a good time. There is also no Steel/Psychics that he has such a hard time getting past either.
 
If it comes in on Psychic/Energy Ball, Honchkrow can Pursuit Alakazam if it switches out or Sucker Punch it if it stays in.
 
. . . if it's that bad, Alakazam would simply be banned to BL? Ah heck, based on recent stats, Alakazam might be OU soon (which would make the point moot).

Another think I'd like to know is during these test periods, how are we going to handle OU pokemon that drop int BL? Add them every month?
 
eventually things will start accumulating in BL and going wither bl-->ou--> bl if theres a usage spike or stay in uu and go uu-->ou-->uu with a usage spike. this will take some time though and i imagine that yes new bls will be added each month in the mean time .
 
I don't mind this idea, but I think nu would need to be re-created. So many pokemon will be not be usable in a more powerful uu tier. BL will be for the few pokemon that stand out after they are moved down, right?
 
Well, I think the process will be incredibly messy and time consuming (yes I know the testing is never really "over" but I mean a while until the tiering is settled and a general consensus is reached) but I support this 100%. Nice to see you take the first steps Obi (and to people like Aldaron & Maniac and other badge holders / mods pushing hard for it) to finally getting this issue dealt with. I'm hoping a UU tier that people are satisfied with is going to be possible in the future under this method. I also don't know what you guys are talking about. This could be a lot of fun. You never know what strategies may emerge from this that were never possible in UU so give it a chance guys before saying this ladder with suck, you might be surprised.
 
I really don't see any reason to discontinue the current UU ladder, except to try and arbitrarily raise the usage of the new ladder. Both ladders should exist.

I'll have to warn some of the overzealous here though, adding a new ladder does not magically illuminate which Pokemon are imbalanced and which are not. There will be lots of disagreement and discussion (recall Deoxys-E,Garchomp,Wobba), except only at this time it will be about 50 or so simultaneously on the fence. I'm not sure how that's going to work.
 
except only at this time it will be about 50 or so simultaneously on the fence.
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I seriously do not think the situation will be anywhere near as extreme as that...

Anyway, I'm glad to see that this idea is finally getting some serious consideration. Does this mean that we are going to go through with this prior to its turn on the Order of Operations list? I hope so, as it would be great if this ladder was to be installed next month, straight after the next OU/BL update.
 
Lemmiwinks MkII said:
I seriously do not think the situation will be anywhere near as extreme as that...

Anyway, I'm glad to see that this idea is finally getting some serious consideration. Does this mean that we are going to go through with this prior to its turn on the Order of Operations list? I hope so, as it would be great if this ladder was to be installed next month, straight after the next OU/BL update.
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I hope we start it as soon as possible. If we can be having only a few BL Pokemon, I'd be very happy. Now we have about 50 Pokemon that are pretty useless in OU, and banned from UU, and never get used. This may be quite a waste.

And also, we don't need to worry about rain teams, etc. for long. If they are too overpowered, the main rain Pokemon will just get banned in the first banning session.

And, while we're on the subject, I'm pretty sure Chansey will make a better special wall than Regice. I guess we'll have to wait an see at the end of the day...
 
X-Act said:
Regice?

Also, to Obi, I thought that we were going to tackle UU as soon as we arrive to that, as defined in the "order of operations" thread in policy review.
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The way I see it, most of the people who are going to participate in this are already primarily UU players. I don't see this having a huge draw away from other tests.

Chris is me said:
How does this affect Smogon Tour if we're keeping the old UU until this is finalized ish?
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This will not affect the Smogon Tour at all, until we get to a list we're comfortable with at the start of a tour (so maybe it will go into effect on the next tour, maybe it won't... I'm not a tournament director!).

Gormenghast said:
there's no way this will be "finalized" any time soon lol

besides:


xD
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Just like the OU list is never finalized. It's possible that we could end up finding that a Pokemon that was OU ought to be uber, or we could decide "Hey, maybe Previously Uber Pokemon might not be uber after all!".
 
Salem1 said:
Nooooo! auto-weathers in UU, please, no... let everything else in but not auto-weathers...
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Don't worry. It's extremely likely that Abomosnow, Hippopotas and Snover will be banned to BL eventually. But it's worth a try, just to see what it'll truly be like.
 
SHUCKLE MAN said:
Don't worry. It's extremely likely that Abomosnow, Hippopotas and Snover will be banned to BL eventually. But it's worth a try, just to see what it'll truly be like.
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You know, the same people complaining about how powerful Rain will be are the ones who want off with the auto-weather's heads.

Hippowdon is BL now, or at least usage says so.
 
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