I'm not trying to prove God exists in this thread, that'd be a waste of time here, but if you want something, most historians agree that Jesus existed and was regarded as a teacher and healer. I'm going to stop posting, and hope this thread gets closed, it's turning into a flame war just like every religion based thread...
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God: Narcissist or low on self esteem?
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It seems like this thread is starting to get a little off-topic. I don't mean to challenge the Theory of Evolution, but ultimately, both it and the concepts behind Christianity must be accepted by faith. There is not enough evidence on either accounts to say which is fact. Kira, your request didn't help prove a point. You could easily find it yourself. It's as readily available as evidence regarding the Theory of Evolution. B-rock, that little jab wasn't meant to make me look arrogant was it? If it helps, I'm not basing those statements off of my own opinions. I'm basing them off of Scripture, which these alleged Christians would naturally be subject to.
In the big picture, we all realize that at this point there is no longer productive discussion, correct? We're not going to make someone just suddenly change their beliefs. All this is doing for us is building feelings of disgust for each other. I'd like to think that Smogon is above that.
In the big picture, we all realize that at this point there is no longer productive discussion, correct? We're not going to make someone just suddenly change their beliefs. All this is doing for us is building feelings of disgust for each other. I'd like to think that Smogon is above that.
I found something of interest for you to read that I found on the internet in 3 minutes:
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
Mormoopid said:
First off, I am a young Christian, so I don't have the same faith as many of Christians in the world, but I feel like this topic needs some actual discussion and information without flaming!!
I do not think anywhere in the bible does it state that if you do not 'worship' him, you are going to hell. All you have to do to be saved, which only requires you to believe in Jesus Christ, repent for your sins, and accept him as your lord and savior. That is all, and when you become truly saved, you cannot go to hell, because you cannot lose your salvation.
Now let me clear something up. When I say 'worship' him, I refer that to regularly praying, going to church, saying grace, etc. on a regular basis. You really never have to do any of those things, as long as you keep your faith in Jesus Christ in your life here on Earth.
After that, anything you do to praise him is not required, but it strengthens your faith and grow closer to him. This includes getting baptized, telling people about your new faith in Christ, spend time with him everyday, and going to church. Do not let any other Christians sucker you into saying that if you don't do one of those things, then you are going to hell! They are all optional, and this causes a big dispute in many churches.
I have looked for the past hour on this topic, and I must say that it's very likely true that if you do not believe in God and Jesus Christ, you are damned to hell. I can't find any scripture right now that says otherwise. However, I did find a couple articles that talk about non-christians and if they are going to hell:
http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45932&Topic=748
http://www.rbc.org/questionsDetail.aspx?id=45746
The 2nd link is great, because it is about how did the people in the old testament go to Heaven if Jesus didn't exist at the time.
This link is also a great source for information. Plus it links to bible verses that matter when it comes to not accepting God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. This is the quote from this link that I like the most, and it very relevant to this discussion:
"But, the Bible clearly teaches that the only certain way to heaven is through Jesus (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). On the one hand, we are confident that God will not hold anyone accountable for any knowledge he did not receive. At the same time, the Bible emphatically states that Christ is the only sure way to salvation. Anyone who has heard of the saving grace of Jesus, and rejects it, would be thumbing his nose at God (John 3:36)."
John 3:36 says:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
Also, here's a 2nd paragraph from that link that is good discussion fodder:
"God is fair as well as just. We are confident, for example, that the Old Testament patriarchs who lived by faith before Jesus' earthly ministry, are in heaven. So certainly some people have gotten to heaven without knowing Jesus in the personal way that the New Testament speaks of. Ultimately only God can judge as only He knows the individual's heart. We hold out hope that for those who have not heard but have not rejected God, those have been misinformed, or those who are unable to understand (children, mentally ill, etc) may be pardoned by a just God."
So basically, it's one thing that if you haven't rejected him. You still may go to heaven based on what God sees in you as a person in your heart. It is not very specific in the bible about that, but it has to fit, seeing that people from the Old Testament had to go to heaven somehow without Jesus in their heart. But it's a fact by many verses in the bible that if you intentionally reject him, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, you will go to hell.
So you don't have to "worship" him. You simply have to believe that he exists, and think of him as your lord....
That doesn't sound any better than being forced to worship him to get into heaven.
What do you guys suppose you are doing by going to church in the first place? Worship. Do you feel you should be there? Is it an imposition on your time (You better say yes to this because any task that isn't fucking around on the internet or sleeping is an imposition)? Do you register that that time could be used doing something productive, even if that productivity is something like walking your dog?
Seems like perhaps you don't necessarily enjoy church and worship but feel like you have to do it. If that is the case, the God notion is imposing a need to worship on you and is therefore in need of it; he therefore is lacking in confidence or narcissistic. Right?
I guess God has some issues in the lord/subject relationship if he requires at the minimum that you believe in him. Anyone who is secure in their relationship/stature doesn't need constant reaffirmation...
I actually asked my brother, who has a masters in philosophy, about this. He definately has a different take on things, but I dunno how applicable it is.
He said:
"A perfect being would have no need for modesty/ego, therefore God would have neither. God wouldn't have an ego to speak of at all. However, worshipping him acknowledges that he is low in ego or narcissistic, since otherwise it would not be required to worship; that being said, he cannot be perfect in any capacity, nevermind the fallacy of being 'all powerful'."
I couldn't say it as well as him, but I definately tried.
Also, holy fucking hell guys 33 posts in just a few hours. Remember, lets keep this friendly and observationally minded, NOT retarded.
Seems like perhaps you don't necessarily enjoy church and worship but feel like you have to do it. If that is the case, the God notion is imposing a need to worship on you and is therefore in need of it; he therefore is lacking in confidence or narcissistic. Right?
I guess God has some issues in the lord/subject relationship if he requires at the minimum that you believe in him. Anyone who is secure in their relationship/stature doesn't need constant reaffirmation...
I actually asked my brother, who has a masters in philosophy, about this. He definately has a different take on things, but I dunno how applicable it is.
He said:
"A perfect being would have no need for modesty/ego, therefore God would have neither. God wouldn't have an ego to speak of at all. However, worshipping him acknowledges that he is low in ego or narcissistic, since otherwise it would not be required to worship; that being said, he cannot be perfect in any capacity, nevermind the fallacy of being 'all powerful'."
I couldn't say it as well as him, but I definately tried.
Also, holy fucking hell guys 33 posts in just a few hours. Remember, lets keep this friendly and observationally minded, NOT retarded.
I've thought of that sometimes. What if a comprehensible God does exist, but more like Jesus (human appearance, human feelings, a shitload of knowledge about everything, etc etc)? What if he's our creator, but not perfect, just an "evolved" (lack of a better word) being? I don't have a Ph.D in Creation of Universes, but I don't think you do need to be perfect to... be a God for a planet. You just need to be totally superior to them. If those beings can't get "close" to you, they'll believe you are perfect and that you're a God. Which would mean you can impose on people a need to worship you, or else they'll burn in hell (or just not have much luck at life as they would if they did it). Yeah, that sucks. I really hope God/Jesus isn't so... human.
And of course, having Jesus as a imperfect but "good" God doesn't help much, because it either means he's the only God (that is, we're fucked if the churches are saying the truth and we decide to not worship him), or that exists another entity, which would be a God for Jesus, the God our Bible talks about, the true perfect being. Who would not care about people praising him at all, because he'd be so superior to us in any aspect, like we're superior to, say, bacteria. Do you understand what a bacterium says? I thought so. Do they worship you? Maybe, but you can't say if they're doing it, eating some pizza, or making up a plan for world domination. Of course, a perfect human would be able to say what they're up to, but would he care...? Would you care...?
So, it's "basically" a) pray to "God" so you don't go to hell for all eternity, or b) don't pray to God, because not only you don't need it, but you can't. Unless you have already met with him and had a really cool, long talk with him about pokémon, hot women, drinking, bacteria pizza and indie rock (in that order). If you did, please tell us about this wonderful experience.
And of course, having Jesus as a imperfect but "good" God doesn't help much, because it either means he's the only God (that is, we're fucked if the churches are saying the truth and we decide to not worship him), or that exists another entity, which would be a God for Jesus, the God our Bible talks about, the true perfect being. Who would not care about people praising him at all, because he'd be so superior to us in any aspect, like we're superior to, say, bacteria. Do you understand what a bacterium says? I thought so. Do they worship you? Maybe, but you can't say if they're doing it, eating some pizza, or making up a plan for world domination. Of course, a perfect human would be able to say what they're up to, but would he care...? Would you care...?
So, it's "basically" a) pray to "God" so you don't go to hell for all eternity, or b) don't pray to God, because not only you don't need it, but you can't. Unless you have already met with him and had a really cool, long talk with him about pokémon, hot women, drinking, bacteria pizza and indie rock (in that order). If you did, please tell us about this wonderful experience.
LOL thats a difficult premise to start with, but I'll go through it.
"In God's image" refers to the soul, not to a bipedal organism with opposable thumbs and an omnivorous diet.
God does not "require" unwavering worship and praise. He requires nothing from humanity, but because he is the source of all that is good, to praise him for his own sake and grow closer to him. Worship is good, but not because it helps or praises God, but because it helps you. Humility is the virtue, but there is more to it than that. I'm no theologian either, but that's the basics.
See above.
As above, you are made in God's image as a soul, not a body. Thus why the living are in God's image, but the dead are not. The dead have passed into heaven, hell, or purgatory.
It is impossible to define a faith in human terms because faith is designed to transcend humanity. The entire concept is believing in a higher power than yourself and an ultimate justice that extends beyond the temporal. It is comparing sin to evil. Sin includes the description of harming your relationship to God whereas what humans may define as evil may simply be the illegal or their personal opinions on various matters.
I'll work through the other posts and edit onto this if there isn't anything below it.
Why does everyone seem to think that worship is for the benefit of a God? Honestly, is there really anything that a human being, if they really are as full of sin as the Bible says, could do to make a perfect being feel any better than he already does?
More likely worship requires of the worshipper an acknowledgement of the perfection and dominance of God and provides a chance to manifest this in a kind of action. It also fosters group connections between members of a church and helps people get into the right mindset to be thinking about God.
Finally, worship is not a waste of time, because if you believe that time spent on this Earth gathering wealth etc. is meaningless, then worship of a perfect being that facilitates entrance to heaven is relatively productive.
Just saying these things from a logical perspective. Don't think this implies anything about my faith. Nope nothing at all...:P
More likely worship requires of the worshipper an acknowledgement of the perfection and dominance of God and provides a chance to manifest this in a kind of action. It also fosters group connections between members of a church and helps people get into the right mindset to be thinking about God.
Finally, worship is not a waste of time, because if you believe that time spent on this Earth gathering wealth etc. is meaningless, then worship of a perfect being that facilitates entrance to heaven is relatively productive.
Just saying these things from a logical perspective. Don't think this implies anything about my faith. Nope nothing at all...:P
I said I wouldn't post again but seems like the thread's back on track...
I go to church about every sunday, and tbh I don't like it that much, but I don't go because I feel that I have to worship God, I go because I think it's a nice gesture; also if I can pay attention, sometimes I learn a little, and if I don't, I'm usually reflecting on important things, so I don't think it's a waste of time either.
If you had any interest in understanding the whole God relationship and what he expects of you thing, there's a novel called "The Shack", I thought it was a pretty interesting read that summed up what I thought God would be like. It's about a guy who basically meets God, I won't say anymore in case anyone decides to check it out which I doubt but... it also offers a viewpoint on what God thinks about non-Christians, which I think atheists wouldn't deride...
I go to church about every sunday, and tbh I don't like it that much, but I don't go because I feel that I have to worship God, I go because I think it's a nice gesture; also if I can pay attention, sometimes I learn a little, and if I don't, I'm usually reflecting on important things, so I don't think it's a waste of time either.
If you had any interest in understanding the whole God relationship and what he expects of you thing, there's a novel called "The Shack", I thought it was a pretty interesting read that summed up what I thought God would be like. It's about a guy who basically meets God, I won't say anymore in case anyone decides to check it out which I doubt but... it also offers a viewpoint on what God thinks about non-Christians, which I think atheists wouldn't deride...
I don't believe in God, and I don't find my time spent on Earth meaningless. I try to enjoy my life as much as possible because when I die that is it. Meanwhile if I ever decide to have kids my life will go into making their lives better.
You don't have to be religious to find life worthwhile.
I never thought I'd say this, but thanks Deck Knight for your contributions. The soul is something I don't consider as actually existing; I honeslty thought that in Gods image would mean literally that we physically look like him. Your contributions, I've actually found, to be the best reply in this thread by way of actually making me think rather than just debating with other posters.
One question though: If faith is something held by only humanity then don't we, as humanity, have only the option to define faith in human terms? By this I mean we are gods brainchild and his only creation capable of understanding his existence. Is this right in thought process?
One question though: If faith is something held by only humanity then don't we, as humanity, have only the option to define faith in human terms? By this I mean we are gods brainchild and his only creation capable of understanding his existence. Is this right in thought process?
maybe those "christians" are wrong... if God is perfect as believed, then he shouldn't need us at all.
that means going to heaven is a privilege, not a bribe from a "god" who needs friends, and offers you goodies if you'll hang out with him.
Anyways I gotta go, I need to get some sleep before church tommorow ok, but this thread is pretty intersting
that means going to heaven is a privilege, not a bribe from a "god" who needs friends, and offers you goodies if you'll hang out with him.
Anyways I gotta go, I need to get some sleep before church tommorow ok, but this thread is pretty intersting
That would be the exact thing I would have told you also.
And your rhethotic question is exactly what every person would point out. I'd say that since God created us, He would be far more intelligent than any of its creations. It's like I created a car and the car is trying to understand how we human work. Can it ever do that? No.
I think that this is the fundamental reason why people divide neatly into two after coming to this realisation. They either accept humbly that they are nothing next to God, so they end up worshiping Him, or else dismiss God as something that doesn't exist.
Just to confuse you some more:
One of the finer points of judgment day (the second coming) is that the body will rise and then be glorified. This was one of the reasons cremation was prohibited for quite some time because of the focus on the body as a vessel, so it is not as if the idea of God in the image of the physical human body has always been rejected. While on earth your body is a vessel for your soul, so you are commanded to be a good steward of it, just like you are a good steward of the environment, your family, etc.
This is also bolstered by the idea that Jesus took on human form. He had perfect divinity and perfect humanity. He could not sin, but he was always tempted by it. He is essentially the gold standard for humans on earth. Thus the saying "all fall short of the glory of God. The essential teaching of Christianity is that humans are a fallen race. That is, we have knowledge of good and evil and the free will to choose between them, and generally insufficient will and knowledge to always choose what is good. Even the saints were sinners at one point in their lives, some with quite horrible vices or temperaments.
In regards to the faith question, human beings are the only species on earth that are even capable of thinking in higher level abstract concepts. That being said, elephants have been known to show empathy to other creatures and protect them, among various other higher levels of emotion and understanding. The ironic thing is that humans are really the only being with a capacity for actual evil, and therefore we need faith in an absolute set of goods to function.
It's like that truism in Spider-Man "with great power comes great responsibility."
I do have a question (well, questions I suppose) for you though. If you don't believe in a soul, what is it that makes you tick (for lack of a better word). In other words, what makes you more than just a complex organism whose behavior is determined by chemical reactions? What would compel you to even ask questions about abstract ideas? I know this sounds weird, but without some "soul" or "self," you reduce humans down to a kind of biomechanical entity.
For a brief aside, I have confidence in God's existence because the mere intangible idea of God has had unquestionable and powerful impact on history. An ethos that shapes your behavior towards others is a power all its own. It's an intangible idea that compels your will to do things you might not otherwise do. It occasionally moves you from enlightened self-interest into altruism. If the mere belief in God has the power to change people's lives, I am certain that no matter what form it may be in, God exists.
in regard to the op, It is my understanding that it can be interperated that by living your life in a Godly way, you are infact worshiping God, Your living for him, kinda taking the whole 'actions speak louder then words type method. It isnt always about getting on your knees with your hands up crying with thanks and such.
How about just the simple term "asshole" defining god pretty well should a Christian/Islam style god exist (seeing as they're practically the same thing).
HAI I'M GOING TO CREATE A UNIVERSE OF PEOPLE AND THEN EXPECT THEM TO BELIEVE IN ME DESPITE THE FACT THERE'S NO REASON TO ASSUME I DO EXIST. AND IF THEY DON'T THEY GO TO A PLACE OF FIRE TO BURN FOREVER LULZ.
That's either a 5 year old spoiled brat level of arrogance or just plain asshole type behavior.
HAI I'M GOING TO CREATE A UNIVERSE OF PEOPLE AND THEN EXPECT THEM TO BELIEVE IN ME DESPITE THE FACT THERE'S NO REASON TO ASSUME I DO EXIST. AND IF THEY DON'T THEY GO TO A PLACE OF FIRE TO BURN FOREVER LULZ.
That's either a 5 year old spoiled brat level of arrogance or just plain asshole type behavior.
In the Bible it's depicted that God provides revelations of Himself through Abraham, the prophets and Jesus. It's not like God is trying to make this elaborate scheme to trick people into going to hell like you're implying.
There are many ways of interpreting the Bible; it's important, however, when searching for the truth in Scripture that you have to take its passages in context of their writers, and what message they were trying to convey. Although many of the events told in the Bible are exaggerated (like your typical epic poem back in the day), they are written so as to emphasize their point to its audience.
A tangent: I've noticed some people talking about good and evil here, and I'd like to present my thoughts on how I view them. Reading about original sin and what other theologians had to say on the subject, I'd have to say that they are just abstract, human concepts that apply to the advantages and disadvantages of one's situation. If you kill your enemy, that may be good for your side, but bad, or evil, from the standpoint of your enemy's friends and relations. Good and evil are purely subjective. If, hypothetically, you could look at the world of human affairs from God's point of view, don't our actions seem rather inconsequential? Humans murdering each other would look no different than if wolves were fighting amongst themselves. I don't know why God would deem humans so special as to judge them and grant them eternal salvation or damnation.
I'm implying that a god, should one exist, just plain doesn't give a fuck - I'm not saying there's an actively trying involved here, but there's certainly a lot of inaction.
Articuno, interesting contribution. Why does realizing you are nothing next to God end up with worship?
Deck knight, my girlfriend told me flat out that jesus did make mistakes and sinned like anyone, since he was a person and nobody is perfect. Apparently he only reached a divine state after he has his shit wrecked on that cross.
Deck knight, my girlfriend told me flat out that jesus did make mistakes and sinned like anyone, since he was a person and nobody is perfect. Apparently he only reached a divine state after he has his shit wrecked on that cross.
I would say that she and Christians in general are the ones who anthropomorphize God the most. The Christian conception of God often suggests that worshipping him is necessary for salvation and that God is "good" and "loves us". I can really only understand either assuming a God whose psychology is very similar to ours, with strong narcissist tendencies (and very high empathy, if he really loves us). In fact, most traits attributed to God imply very strongly that his psychology is that of a human with personality disorders. If you cannot define God in human terms, then it all becomes completely incomprehensible - there is absolutely no reason for a random divine being to care about us or our worship, let alone have a concept of "good" that relates to us.
The reason there isn't a better word for 'tick' here is that there isn't actually any effect to describe that needs a word or definition.
Nothing, because we aren't.
I don't see why some mystical essence of self (aka soul) is a prerequisite to having "abstract" thoughts. I understand that the complexity of ourselves as organisms (especially our brains, maybe) is very impressive to us, but observing our own complexity and inferring that there must be some deeper, magical core that is impossible for us to really understand (aka soul) is kinda like what would happen if people from thousands of years ago saw my laptop and thought it was magical. For them to try to explain how the laptop works would be silly, and it would result in multiple, inconsistent explanations floating around. These people from the past would be most correct to assume that the laptop is actually fully understandable, but to understand it requires much more knowledge that they don't have.
Exactly! I actually laughed out loud when I read this because you've stumbled over the truth without realizing it. I'm surprised Brain didn't comment on this one.
And Mormoopid, I think you mean X-Act not Articuno.