A radical proposition: Camerupt

[jumpluff]

If the majority of the community changes its mind should it be locked into decisions it regrets that change the entire face of the project? This is the first EVO project; it should not start out as rigidly as the others as it just started and we should be more flexible as we pioneer.

[Note that I am talking hypothetically; I am not arguing that everyone has changed their mind now.]

 

[latinoheat]

We have been discussing this process for months. If you didn't like it why didn't you post a less restrictive alternative in the policy review which was open a number of months before this.

 

[gorm]

hey listen to me dude, i wasnt there, and i didnt care, sorry. im not in the "cap clique" i never go on the server, and im sorry my flash of insight is disrupting everything.....

now i am here i do care and i am right.

you have been discussing this process for months, how come everyone wants another CAP? either it wasnt publicized enough or our public is too stupid or it's imperfectly applied to EVO due to it

this being the first evo project??

maybe it was hyped by a *cool community member* with *no reasoning*. maybe its a combination of all of these.


the process that has NEVER been applied succesfully to the EVO project is more important than the potential results of the project/resulting metagame/having the community not fucking split 50/50 over fanboy vs anti fanboy, NONE of whom understand the process, or have a better metagame in mind?

do you all just love wasting time is that it?


take a step back before wasting time sorry.

 

[Urza]

i like your reasoning, but i have to say that not all of the voting for farfetch'd is devoid of consideration about the metagame....there are plenty of people who think that some of the directions that farfetch'd could go in are quite useful and useable in the metagame. just sayin.

 

[Hazmat]

hey listen to me dude, i wasnt there, and i didnt care, sorry. im not in the "cap clique" i never go on the server, and im sorry my flash of insight is disrupting everything.....

now i am here i do care and i am right.

you have been discussing this process for months, how come everyone wants another CAP? either it wasnt publicized enough or our public is too stupid or it's imperfectly applied to EVO due to it

this being the first evo project??

maybe it was hyped by a *cool community member* with *no reasoning*. maybe its a combination of all of these.


the process that has NEVER been applied succesfully to the EVO project is more important than the potential results of the project/resulting metagame/having the community not fucking split 50/50 over fanboy vs anti fanboy, NONE of whom understand the process, or have a better metagame in mind?

do you all just love wasting time is that it?


take a step back before wasting time sorry.

I honestly wouldn't have thought waiting until the next evo CAP would be that hard, but I guess it is (?)

Seriously, you have a great case and I think cammy will make it to the finals next time, but don't start stepping on everyones toes just because you were too late with your reasoning.

The only real issue that you made that I have to feel a bit concerned about is how you think pretty much everyone behind farfetch'd is a fanboy -- that's just overgeneralizing and being rude, bro :/

 

[gorm]

im stepping on people who want to have a new cap (fetchd) instead of evolving a pokemon who will like almost certainly help the metagame (see op)

do you have a problem with that? i dont really care if im against a legion of raving fanboys (that i created), it doesnt make me any less right.

the process is not a good one if it doesnt allow for itself to be improved as it's being used (see process being locked while it's being test run?)

 

[Calad]

Atryoki's submission was Camerupt.
The third post in EVO Pokemon Submission Thread. You can read it here

Nobody support him. Why you don't support him?
Now, I think it's too late.

 

[gorm]

i wasnt there? i didnt care about cap? i didnt have the insight?

why are you all giving up and accepting to undertake a mediocro project. I'm offering you all pretty much a pokemon that could potentially fix Pt's *coinflip* style of play given like 7-8 concrete examples.

does no one understand why im right, or are you all just sscared to press a fucking vote button and wait 3 days again?

 

[Objection]

Forget it Gorm. Just let everyone screw up the Farfetch'd/Houndoom evo this time around. It should hopefully open everyone else's eyes to the flaws in either the process or their reasoning. Maybe next time, prior to the pokemon selection, there should perhaps be a tier selection.

 

[kd24]

well i wanted dewgong who i think could help the metagame the most with an evo if done correctly but I like Camerupt evo as well. He would be a great way to breaking stall and a nice sweeper. he could actually counter zapdos, celebi, blissey, ect. I think gorm hit it right on the head when he says that cap is supposed to help balance / fix the metagame. farfetchd evo pretty much means every team needs zapdos and maybe skarmory to survive :/. Camerupt evo provides diversity and means people can use other options and it would help stop scizor / zapdos / heatran / scylant teams that are pretty much everywhere.

in short: i fully support gormenghast and camerupt

 

[Hyra]

Gorm, the reason CAP has managed to keep producing Pokemon for almost a year now is that we have a process. If you want to see the mess changing the process causes, look at the Ability stage of Pyroak. Not a fun solution.

I don't care if making a Camerupt evo would make gold rain from the sky, it's not what's in the best interest of the CAP Project. (Plus, if it was anyone besides you, Doug would have just outright locked this.)

 

[DougJustDoug]

I didn't lock this thread because I figure we might as well talk about this openly. But, this discussion isn't really about Camerupt for me. It is about the basic process of conducting a poll.

If we open up the poll and allow Camerupt in -- do we also allow the Banette fanboys to include their favorite? X-Act's Dewgong suggestion had quite a few ardent supporters -- do we put Dewgong in the poll? A lot of people think Girafarig got jobbed -- do we add it too? A lot of knowledgeable battlers have pointed out that Qwilfish didn't even make the poll, and it would have been a nice choice. If those people make a thread and get a few posts of support -- will we allow Qwilfish in the race?

The point is this -- there will ALWAYS be supporters for something other than the current winning choice. But just because there is support -- that does not mean we go back and redo the poll. The only reason I would ever consider reverting a poll would be if the poll was not conducted fairly. The polls conducted so far have been totally above-board.

Camerupt was actually mentioned in the first discussion thread. In fact, it was ONE OF THE VERY FIRST pokemon presented -- http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1575983&postcount=3. In that discussion, Camerupt received support from two people. TWO. That is hardly an overwhelming endorsement.

Your answer to this is -- "Well yes, but now we've thought about it and a few of us have changed our minds." That is a silly reason to overturn the results of over 700 community votes (and counting). We have conducted a series of open click polls and are narrowing it down until we have a winner. I hardly consider that to be a "rigid process" that somehow limits the community. Hell, that is just holding a vote for crissakes! What is controversial about listing a bunch of options and then voting on them until one option is the clear winner?

Do you honestly expect us to allow every poll to be contested if someone wants to add an option when the vote is almost concluded after several days of polling? If the answer is, "Not every poll, just this one." -- Then what will make it "just this one"? All I see is opening up a can of worms and setting a precedent for anyone to contest any poll in the future.

I fail to see a single procedural argument for overturning the current poll. All I see is a couple of people that have changed their minds recently.

 

[gorm]

thanks for the support kd

Forget it Gorm. Just let everyone screw up the Farfetch'd/Houndoom evo this time around. It should hopefully open everyone else's eyes to the flaws in either the process or their reasoning.

uh id rather explain it than sacrifice the entire project .that seems like an extremely shitty way to do it and will just end up with *i told you it would suck/be another CAP clusterfuck*

its time this project got it's act together. i wish darkie was here because im certain he would agree with me

too late? we havent even chosen a pokemon. stop telling em too late?
where was i? im here now, making the thing better and im not letting go because NO one has given me a single good reason to stop.

Gorm, the reason CAP has managed to keep producing Pokemon for almost a year now is that we have a process. If you want to see the mess changing the process causes, look at the Ability stage of Pyroak. Not a fun solution.

producing but frankly the quality is lackluster. we're too ambitious. tahts another discussion. and anways you have no tested process for EVO i cant believe youre not open to modifying it when a HUGE problem like this occurs.

I don't care if making a Camerupt evo would make gold rain from the sky, it's not what's in the best interest of the CAP Project.

why. you have yet to tell me why besides defending some process taht you HAVENT EVEN TESTED

(Plus, if it was anyone besides you, Doug would have just outright locked this.)

i take this as an offense youre pretty much saying im not right im popular.
fuck you, im right


________


I didn't lock this thread because I figure we might as well talk about this openly. But, this discussion isn't really about Camerupt for me. It is about the basic process of conducting a poll.

If we open up the poll and allow Camerupt in -- do we also allow the Banette fanboys to include their favorite? X-Act's Dewgong suggestion had quite a few ardent supporters -- do we put Dewgong in the poll? A lot of people think Girafarig got jobbed -- do we add it too? A lot of knowledgeable battlers have pointed out that Qwilfish didn't even make the poll, and it would have been a nice choice. If those people make a thread and get a few posts of support -- will we allow Qwilfish in the race?

The point is this -- there will ALWAYS be supporters for something other than the current winning choice. But just because there is support -- that does not mean we go back and redo the poll. The only reason I would ever consider reverting a poll would be if the poll was not conducted fairly. The polls conducted so far have been totally above-board.
[/quote]
Camerupt was actually mentioned in the first discussion thread. In fact, it was ONE OF THE VERY FIRST pokemon presented -- http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...83&postcount=3. In that discussion, Camerupt received support from two people. TWO. That is hardly an overwhelming endorsement. [/quote] i wasnt there to think about it/discuss it/prop it im sorry for that. im here now.

Your answer to this is -- "Well yes, but now we've thought about it and a few of us have changed our minds." That is a silly reason to overturn the results of over 700 community votes (and counting). We have conducted a series of open click polls and are narrowing it down until we have a winner. I hardly consider that to be a "rigid process" that somehow limits the community. Hell, that is just holding a vote for crissakes! What is controversial about listing a bunch of options and then voting on them until one option is the clear winner?

im almost 100% positive that hype+good reasoning will allow the people to see the light. im asking you to give the majority a chance to pick the right option

Do you honestly expect us to allow every poll to be contested if someone wants to add an option when the vote is almost concluded after several days of polling? If the answer is, "Not every poll, just this one." -- Then what will make it "just this one"? All I see is opening up a can of worms and setting a precedent for anyone to contest any poll in the future.

i certainly think that any 50/50 poll based on fanboy vs fanboy is bogus. countervoting for a poor option like houndoom is not in caps best interest, finding the best possible pokemon to devote time to is in its best interest. the process becomes apparent WHEN IT PRODUCES GOOD RESULTS.

I fail to see a single procedural argument for overturning the current poll. All I see is a couple of people that have changed their minds recently.

im asking you for a chance to prove you wrong. i think camperupt can get an easy majority.

 

[Hazmat]

i wasnt there? i didnt care about cap? i didnt have the insight?

why are you all giving up and accepting to undertake a mediocro project. I'm offering you all pretty much a pokemon that could potentially fix Pt's *coinflip* style of play given like 7-8 concrete examples.

does no one understand why im right, or are you all just sscared to press a fucking vote button and wait 3 days again?

Stop calling a process your golden boy didn't win mediocre.

Stop calling people who voted for another pokemon besides yours fanboys.

It's like turning in a test three hours after all of the other tests were collected, It doesn't matter if it's a 100% -- you had a chance to make it earlier and you didn't. Suck it up and wait for the next cap.

 

[gorm]

Stop calling a process your golden boy didn't win mediocre.

Stop calling people who voted for another pokemon besides yours fanboys.

It's like turning in a test three hours after all of the other tests were collected, It doesn't matter if it's a 100% -- you had a chance to make it earlier and you didn't. Suck it up and wait for the next cap.

if you look at the farfetchd posts i made int he concept thread youll see that i have every right to call my fetchd army fanboys. its not an evo project is a cap project if you cant see that im really sorry.

 

[eric the espeon]

Maybe there is a way to get something useful out of this thread?
Camerupt will not and should not be chosen for this EVO but this thread (not because it would eb a bad choice to evolve, but because it would go directly against the process.) does bring up an interesting point; maybe all Pokemon should be on the first poll to avoid the TL's judgement from upsetting some people?

I know that everyone was free to express support for any Pokemon on the list but (as far as I can see, someone correct me if I am wrong) the bold "votes" in the Pokemon submission thread were not counted up.
If they were then hopefully these kind of threads would not happen again.

 

[Objection]

im asking you for a chance to prove you wrong. i think camperupt can get an easy majority.

Then make an unofficial poll.

 

[gorm]

am i allowed because i'd love to?

ete give me one good reason why an untested process is more important than the time put into the project its being applied to

 

[Drakhun]

Yet people who support Farfy and have an arguement for it are completely ignored by you. I don't like houndoom because it would have to force itself into a niche by being better than Infernape and/or Heatran. Farfy however has more room to do stuff with, all its stats are fairly close so we can go more directions with it, and it has flying STAB, nothing which a physical OU uses.

You're just being pissy because your choice isn't winning.

 

[Hazmat]

if you look at the farfetchd posts i made int he concept thread youll see that i have every right to call my fetchd army fanboys. its not an evo project is a cap project if you cant see that im really sorry.

Lol, cool labeling bro. I'm not sure how good you are at assessing yourself, but you are coming off as a spoiled brat with all of your "fuck you im right" and voter ownership. Oh, and totally disregarding anything that the farfetched side has to say besides "I LUV FARFETCHD LUL."

If you can't wait one measly freaking cap until you sweep over all of our processes with your fancy, god-given words of complete wisdom -- then I'm pretty sure you are way too impatient. You should have told us why camerupt is so great earlier.

 

[gorm]

farfy has too much room because its a cap pokemon. there is no basis upon wich to base the evo besides base 50 stats in everything and carries a stick. you need to reread the thread

then you might also know that i was the first to talk about/hype fetched in chats/threads.



i dont want to get into a fucking flamewar that is retarded

Lol, cool labeling bro. I'm not sure how good you are at assessing yourself, but you are coming off as a spoiled brat with all of your "fuck you im right" and voter ownership. Oh, and totally disregarding anything that the farfetched side has to say besides "I LUV FARFETCHD LUL."

we cant do a farfecthd evo because we dont have a basis to evolve it on. we need to differentiate EVO from CAP, that is pretty apparent and fetched as project #1 is not going to do that

If you can't wait one measly freaking cap until you sweep over all of our processes with your fancy, god-given words of complete wisdom -- then I'm pretty sure you are way too impatient. You should have told us why camerupt is so great earlier.

why does everyone tell me to wait and do a shitty evo instead of wait WAY less time and do a more informed repoll.
i dont understand

 

[kd24]

Alright, I think some of you need to realize that Gorm isnt acting pissy because his choice wasn't selected. Gorm said it himself, he honestly has never really cared about CaP (although I cant agree with him as I like the CaP forum). He wants what is best for the metagame. I dont think there is any doubt that a Camerupt Evolution would help the metagame so much more than a Farfetchd Evo. Gorm has repeatedly made it a point that all a Farfetchd Evo will bring in more Zapdos while a Camperupt Evo will help keep Skymin, Celebi, Skarmory, Forretress, Zapdos, Blissey, Scizor, Heatran, ect. all in check.

 

[Hyra]

Gorm, this isn't your army by the way. People have been wanting to evolve Farfetch'd since CAP2. You were just the first person to post about him.

And Gorm, overturning the vote we did here gives precedent for overturning votes in the main CAP. Overturning votes is bad and disenfranchises people, which makes them leave the project. You know all those 50/50 votes that took place in CAP5? Well, if we allow you to add Camerupt as an option, we open up the decision to go back to all of those polls and add a third option and undo about a months worth of work. EVO is not isolated from CAP, it is simply a subdivision.

 

[Hazmat]

why does everyone tell me to wait and do a shitty evo instead of wait WAY less time and do a more informed repoll.
i dont understand

Stop calling it shitty, you have no basis for that.

 

[eric the espeon]

am i allowed because i'd love to?
I would expect you to get an infraction unless you got permission from the TL/a CaP mod. Note to darkie: I am not mini modding, I am telling him what I would expect to happen.

ete give me one good reason why an untested process is more important than the time put into the project its being applied to

Because if anyone could at any point just go back and say "No I don't like the result of that vote, lets try again" CaP would simply fail. There are too many things that could be made a little better, or that people realise were wrong at the time. You just have to live with it and move on.

Also you and anyone else who liked Camerupt had PLENTY of time to suggest and support it.

i wasnt there? i didnt care about cap? i didnt have the insight?

Is an incredably poor argement. You were not there, you didnt care about cap, you didnt have the insight.
Live with it.

uh id rather explain it than sacrifice the entire project .that seems like an extremely shitty way to do it and will just end up with *i told you it would suck/be another CAP clusterfuck*

How is evolveing the pokemon that the people voted for and supported a "sacrifice" of a project? Maybe its not what YOU like, and maybe if you had posted your arguments sooner or at least expressed support Camerupt could have made it through the polls. But you did not. It did not.

Also I do think that Camerupt could be better for the normal metagame than Farfy or Houndoom, but thats not the point. We put support for those Pokemon and voted for them when it counted. And whichever wins it will not be a waste, we will get something out of it. If people are still keen on Camerupt by next EVO then we can do it for EVO 2.