EVO 1 - Process Vote

[zarator]

Gorm, you have my complete support (if i did not post on the camerupt thread is because i feared to write something susceptible to infraction :-P )

Seriously guys, what the hell is happening? The EVO submission thread is filled not only by people who did not make a competitive-wise argument to support they submission, but even people who indeed defended fanboysm!

Originally posted by Darth Meanie
I've been wanting a Farfetch'd evo since generation I. I came up with a Fighting/Flying concept, albeit seperately. He has a lot of potential.

Also, the "fanboyish" argument is moot. CAP is by nature, fanboyish, and EVO even more. We are making up pokemon.

How you even dare to say something like this in a place like this??? This is an insult to the CAP project far deeper than Gormenghast post could even remotely be! And, what is even worse, none of you - and i say none - did not even say a word against him - aside me. I personally expected that this post would have been deleted, but it is still there, and you can even read it if you dont believe to me. I expected people would have flamed it or at least attacked it. None said anything.

Originally posted by ChronoSquare
I got into the CAP for the pure design aspect of it, that is the art. That's what brought me back to Smogon, and as I said since I don't have much experience I don't feel like I can contribute much to the actual discussion of moves and/or stats...

Nice, so now CAP is an art forum, where people vote to have the best sprite/artwork to make? interesting...

Have we come down to the point we can tolerate these people? Have we come down to the point fanboysm and art are more important than the competitive aspect? I think CAP itself should change in order to prevent this state of things to continue.

If we can change EVO to make it a bit more serious before things are too late, well, lets do it. And, BTW, I'd prefer that on CAP6 we'll make an art submission thread AFTER the movepool vote so that i dont have to hear: "This thing cant Focus Punch - it does not have hands". Well, draw a pokemon with hands, then. This is your job.

 

[eric the espeon]

Gormenghast: the result is whats important
Gormenghast: the project is whats important
cyberzero: No it's not.
eric the espeon: no..
latino: lol
Gormenghast: WHY IS IT TOO LATE
Gormenghast: THERE IS A POLL OPEN RIGHT NOW
eric the espeon: The community is what is important.
Gormenghast: to go back
Gormenghast: no its not
Gormenghast: the cmmunity?
eric the espeon: Yes.
Gormenghast: its like 20 ref
Gormenghast: 20 regs
latino: and the hundreds that vote
cyberzero: eric, did you hear that?
cyberzero: 20?
Gormenghast: what do you guys bring to smogon
eric the espeon: You do not understand CaP.
Beej: Gorm I would respect your points a lot more if you stopped calling the community worthless.
Gormenghast: what do you contribute
Gormenghast: who decided you needed a forum
Beej: Insignificant.
eric the espeon: That is why people are angry.
Gormenghast: ok well
Gormenghast: you dont contribute a whole lot to smogon
Gormenghast: apart from more viewers


I think people do not see that if we chose to go back now we will be undoing a basic principal of CaP.
We will be counting several polls null and void for no reason.
It is entirely irrelevant if Camerupt is better for the metagame (IMO its not but that's not the point). It had its chance, and was not chosen or supported.

 

[gorm]

It is entirely irrelevant if Camerupt is better for the metagame (IMO its not but that's not the point). It had its chance, and was not chosen or supported.

i disagree 100%. if the old process doesnt have making the metagame more interesting in mind, it is unworthy and i challenge anyone to disagree.

also much respect to zarator for making some valid points :D

 

[Goodbar]

I don't get why people are saying we're counting votes null and void, if we're redoing things, everyone is going to have another vote, so we're not throwing away anything, we're giving people a chance to reconsider their vote. All who really wanted a farfy/houndoom/whatever evo can keep their vote, and furthermore we'll be creating newer votes that are better thought out. By not redoing this we'd be counting several votes null, because they are not truly representative of the undereducated voters.

 

[Zerox]

I'm voting redo it. As has been said, many votes for Farfetch'd were just SUPER NINJAE DUX fanboyism, not all however. Fighting/Flying could be a cool combo, but again, half of this might be fanboyism again because they want to see samurai/ninja/shogun mallard or whatever. I am most certainly not against the possiblity of Farfetch'd being reslected, and if it is, then fine, as long as it's not identical to what happened the first time. But it might just swing another way if more votes have more reasoning in them at the inital start. The second voting round of the top 5 or so is fine, however, as the Pokemon there were chosen because of good suggestions.
By no means is dux here a bad choice, just the initial choice might not be influenced by potential so much.

the_arctic_one's idea is pretty much perfect, it forces people to sensibly think first, rather than bandwagoning because one person suggested a cool idea, whether that was thought well through or not. The same process as before with this added could help fix what would appear to be the main problem. Perhaps slowing down the pace could help.
Straight after the Pokemon is chosen with a few ideas in mind, it would obviously go to which direction the evolution should go in (special sweeper, physical wall etc.). Then that would naturally lead on to moveset, design, stats etc., again with similar reasoning.

We must keep in mind the previous intention, to create a new, useful Pokemon from one that is currently not particularly plausible in the OU/standard metagame. It's essentially really the same as just ordinary CAP, but the design, stat/movepool etc. is affected by the inital Pokemon chosen for an upgrade. Battle usage comes before coolness, which can always be implemented when the design part comes along.

Not that this hasn't been said before.

EDIT: Zarator speaks a good point. Fanboyism and art are not always bad things, but they work against what the system is trying to achieve, those should be left for deviantart or something. That does not mean good art for the design process is bad, but it is less important than the usability, in the long run. I am very much into art and think it's a good part of it, but a concept drawing shouldn't influence it's gameplay mechanics, it should go the other way around.

 

[gorm]

thanks guys, im glad were slowing down anthinking rationally r__r

by the way i encourage people to join caps shoddy server (cap.servegame.com port 8888) to discuss this :)

 

[Jhonny]

I think people do not see that if we chose to go back now we will be undoing a basic principal of CaP.

I thought the point of this poll was to see whether we could change some of theprinciples. Seriously, if it's broke then do fix it.

 

[zarator]

Gormenghast: the result is whats important
Gormenghast: the project is whats important
cyberzero: No it's not.
eric the espeon: no..
latino: lol
Gormenghast: WHY IS IT TOO LATE
Gormenghast: THERE IS A POLL OPEN RIGHT NOW
eric the espeon: The community is what is important.
Gormenghast: to go back
Gormenghast: no its not
Gormenghast: the cmmunity?
eric the espeon: Yes.
Gormenghast: its like 20 ref
Gormenghast: 20 regs
latino: and the hundreds that vote
cyberzero: eric, did you hear that?
cyberzero: 20?
Gormenghast: what do you guys bring to smogon
eric the espeon: You do not understand CaP.
Beej: Gorm I would respect your points a lot more if you stopped calling the community worthless.
Gormenghast: what do you contribute
Gormenghast: who decided you needed a forum
Beej: Insignificant.
eric the espeon: That is why people are angry.
Gormenghast: ok well
Gormenghast: you dont contribute a whole lot to smogon
Gormenghast: apart from more viewers

Well, you brought up this, lets comment it then.

On one side, i see an idea of the CAP as a research lab, much like the research courses in most real universities. These labs/courses are supported and sponsored by the university, but they are expected to product something significant. Dont take me as a shitty materialist. I attend a university of philosophy, and from that point of view we dont product. But, even then, our researchers are sponsored by the university as long as their researches really contribute to the philosophical knowledge of the university itself.
To synthetize, on one side there is a person who see the CAP as a scientific research.

On the other side there are people who defend a "community", intended as a group of people with similar kind of interests. They do not seem to be really involved in the research spirit, and defend their legitimacy in a dialectically poor and somehow elitary way, when Eric say "You do not understand CaP" without even try to defend CaP's "scientific" status.
To synthetize, on the other side there are people who see the CAP as a community.

Well, i'd say: this is Smogon University. This name give me an idea by itself.

Anyway, there is another point I really want to address: when you say that Camerupt is a poor choice because it "does not fit into the CaP metagame" you are making a really bad reasonment. CaP, or at least what DJD declared CaP was in the Mission Statement, was intended to make people learn better the true metagame. A metagame where Syclant and Revenankh dont exist. A metagame where Celebi and Zapdos are everywhere.

I'll try to explain deeper, because this is the crucial point. We are not trying to create here a new metagame. It is something more than fake pokedexs which run rampant in other sites, but it is still not the Smogon spirit. When we build a thing like Revenankh, for example, the most important thing of the process is how the true pokemon are analyzed in their ability to either be threatened or threaten Revvy. This helps to underline their strenghts and weaknesses and maybe make us discover some solutions which, while originally created to deal with Revvy, work pretty well even in the standard metagame.
Think to Deoxys-S. When it first came out, no one would think it was broken to the point it revealed to be. Then, Dual Screen set came out. Now Deoxys-S is uber again. But things like Dual Screen Alakazam and Azelf start to pop out, where in the past the only widely used Dual Screener was Zong, and seldom as a lead. If a pokemon we create achieve such results, then we have taken the right way. But when our creations are thought for a ultimately fake metagame or, worse, when their creation is dictated by coolness, flavour or fanboysm, then there is something wrong at the very basis

 

[eric the espeon]

i disagree 100%. if the old process doesnt have making the metagame more interesting in mind, it is unworthy and i challenge anyone to disagree.

I do not mind any challenges to the process.
What I mind is a mid-process revision, badly planed and opposed by almost all of the main people involved in CaP that by Doug's admission would have been locked under normal circumstances.

When I first saw this thread, I was going to lock it straight up. I have a high regard for following the CAP process, and this thread basically says, "I don't care about the process. I have a good idea." We get this sort of thing all the time, but normally I delete the threads so they don't distract the community.

And X-Act's post in your thread is a pretty good indicator.

So what exactly is the point of this thread, seriously?

In fact, what the fuck is this thread?

Do you seriously think that this thread will change the course of EVO1?

How the fuck did this thread get 100 posts without being locked?

Also the process is all about letting the voters pick, not doing whats best for them. If we go back and say "No, those 3 polls were wrong because this idea is better. I did not say it at the time and it did not get supported but its still best." then it undermines everything... If you had asked for extra time to debate for the next project, or before this one started it would have been welcomed.

And to address one little thing in Zarator's post, I do not think Camerupt would be a bad choice, just that Farfy could be better.

 

[cyberzero]

Dixie Normas: yes but your posts clearly look down on this community
Kannon: other than the fact gorm won't stfu, I think we're fine Numbuh
gormenghast: i do.
gormenghast: ok fuc you youre not even listening to me
cyberzero: Gorm, if you do, then please don't try and be a part of it
gormenghast: i dont want to be part of the community


Why would we shake up our whole process because this one person who thinks of us in such a manner is going to question what we do?

 

[Urza]

every SINGLE time there was a major issue in CAP, the current project was allowed to continue and it was decided afterwards how to avoid something like this happening in the future. gorm has essentially used his well-earned respect to stage a coup, forcing a new vote and a mid process change. this is what is wrong with this ENTIRE thread and this entire vote.

further, i think the blatant disrespect he shows for the community and lack of knowledge about what it actually is doing is extremely disheartening. i'm not saying he's wrong, but i am really disappointed that this is how the issue is being handled, with a total freeze. we've never done that before. the closest thing to that was a weather discussion that accompanied pyroak, but there was never any attempt to throw out legitimate votes there; only to help steer the direction the polls had taken.

 

[zarator]

@Eric: The point is not to propose Camerupt instead of Farfetch'd, or Houndoom, or anything else. What made me say "wait, lets take a thought" is the disgusting fanboysm which was brought up by Farfetch'd. Sincerely, I am one of those who voted Houndoom only because I did not want a shit like Farfetch'd to win - even since the 5-choice pull, because it was clear after a while that the only pokemon who could beat Farfetch'd in votes was Houndoom.
Seriously, how can you even accept such fanboysm running rampant through the entire project? It seemed to me that we had came back to the fanboysm levels of CAP1.

@cyberzero: If someone comes, make a reason-wise critic to the community and the community is not able to prove its falsity, then the community must be reformed. And, just to be honest, if the community is filled with fanboys and such, I'd not like to be considered part of such a community.

@urza: if once, if only once, we could avoid make mistakes like in the past, it would be a fair thing. If you do not correct swiftly the process - why im even saying the process? the community itself - we'll making more mistakes in the future. Remember that after Syclant came Revenankh...

 

[Griffin]

My main problem with restarting the project is that it would lead to every time someone disagrees with something they would open a thread like Gormenghast. And it would be unfair to lock or delete it, since this one wasn't locked. Because you (apparently) never favour anyone, that topic would get a poll as well.

It would just lead to disrupting EVO every time.


On top of that, you can't say if this EVO will be that bad. Just let it go, and maybe this Farfetched EVO (a bulky Baton Passer maybe) will be just what the metagame needs. It's better to eveluate something after it's finished.

 

[eric the espeon]

I did not vote Farfy due to fanboyisum.
I think that a Fight/Flying Pokemon would be very useful for the CaP metagame, I will not go into my reasons here.

And even if someone is a "fanboy" they still have equal votes here, its up to the public to chose everything. We can only try to convince them.

 

[1059860]

Not just Camerupt, but Vespiquen as well. Vespiquen would have a great deal of tanking ability + Pressure to be used as a wall if it gets changed into Bug/Ground or Bug/Dragon (O_O)... Plus putting the High Crit Ratio Better-than-X-Scissor unique Attack Order to use, and maybe Defense/Heal Order as well.

 

[zarator]

eric, dont try to avoid the points i made.

I didnt accuse you of fanboysm.

And, most importantly, you didnt even answer my last point. Have I to think that you dont answer because you do not have an answer?
I dont think so.
Then, tell me. Why, if CaP research is addressed to the real metagame, we should overlook such a fertile topic like how camerupt could affect the metagame to its dephts and what strenghts/weaknesses could it underline for the sake of a fake metagame?

 

[Urza]

zarator, other people have accused the farfetch'd crowd of fanboyism, so its a valid defense. you also just asked him how he accepts fanboyism running rampant through CAP, which is tantamount to an accusation.

as to the other point, CAP is SUPPOSED to be a fake metagame. we all acknowledge that. it's a much faster evolving metagame that we influence ourselves, not just by usage statistics, but by our very own creations. it comes out of the real metagame. we see what is missing, and we try to see what happens if we insert those things into the game.

gorm raised good points before completely disrespecting the community. we should continue the project in good faith to what CAP stands for, and then make any corrections later. syclant and revenankh were always supposed to be revised. pyroak, fidgit and stratagem will get theirs later. this is a very active, playtesting community.

trying to be diplomatic here, i don't have much of a voice in this community, but i think that's what makes CAP cool. everyone has a voice. it's literal internet democracy.

 

[eric the espeon]

eric, dont try to avoid the points i made.

I didnt accuse you of fanboysm.

And, most importantly, you didnt even answer my last point. Have I to think that you dont answer because you do not have an answer?
I dont think so.
Then, tell me. Why, if CaP research is addressed to the real metagame, we should overlook such a fertile topic like how camerupt could affect the metagame to its dephts and what strenghts/weaknesses could it underline for the sake of a fake metagame?

Because they will only ever be used in said fake metagame.
And if we deicide to keep going with the Pokmeon has already been voted on (farfy) it does not exclude in any way evolving Camerupt in a future CaP.

 

[gorm]

I do not mind any challenges to the process.
What I mind is a mid-process revision, badly planed and opposed by almost all of the main people involved in CaP that by Doug's admission would have been locked under normal circumstances.

it was a badly planned process reviion in the middle of the process, but that doesnt stop the fact that the process needs revision, eople are interested in revising it (the_artctic_one's is great) and that we can change the process along the way, we are doing it right now and it's going rather well id say ^_^

And X-Act's post in your thread is a pretty good indicator.

xact agrees with me.

Also the process is all about letting the voters pick, not doing whats best for them. If we go back and say "No, those 3 polls were wrong because this idea is better. I did not say it at the time and it did not get supported but its still best." then it undermines everything... If you had asked for extra time to debate for the next project, or before this one started it would have been welcomed.

if the process impedes voters being informed/discussing, youre damn right ill question the democratic outcome.

And to address one little thing in Zarator's post, I do not think Camerupt would be a bad choice, just that Farfy could be better.

doug/most of us disagree with you for various reasons including it's a full revamp project and would pretty much be cap

Dixie Normas: yes but your posts clearly look down on this community
Kannon: other than the fact gorm won't stfu, I think we're fine Numbuh
gormenghast: i do.
gormenghast: ok fuc you youre not even listening to me
cyberzero: Gorm, if you do, then please don't try and be a part of it
gormenghast: i dont want to be part of the community

lol you cut off a pretty important part

gormenghast: BUT
gormenghast: maybe a great project would change my mind

seriosuly that is low lol

Why would we shake up our whole process because this one person who thinks of us in such a manner is going to question what we do?

because what you do is worth questioning

every SINGLE time there was a major issue in CAP, the current project was allowed to continue and it was decided afterwards how to avoid something like this happening in the future.

i think thats a problem

gorm has essentially used his well-earned respect to stage a coup, forcing a new vote and a mid process change. this is what is wrong with this ENTIRE thread and this entire vote.

the fact that im well respected and that this has never happened before makes my points invalid? please.

further, i think the blatant disrespect he shows for the community and lack of knowledge about what it actually is doing is extremely disheartening.

id like to take this opportunity to apologize for this

if i have made it seem like i disrespect the combined effort put into cap i apologize. i am totally respectful of allt he work that TLs artists mods etc have put into this.

What i wil say is that what cpa has cotributed does not at present grant it *site project status*, its mostly just an attraction for new users. do you disagree with that?

i'm not saying he's wrong, but i am really disappointed that this is how the issue is being handled, with a total freeze. we've never done that before. the closest thing to that was a weather discussion that accompanied pyroak, but there was never any attempt to throw out legitimate votes there; only to help steer the direction the polls had taken.

bolded word is key. i reject the votes because they were mostly composed of people who wanted to evolve farfetchd because it was weak. that is not the focus of this process, and if it is we need to change the process

____

Because they will only ever be used in said fake metagame.

why? why not include it in Pt only? i think alot more people would be interested in that.

And if we deicide to keep going with the Pokmeon has already been voted on (farfy) it does not exclude in any way evolving Camerupt in a future CaP.

id rather not have a lame evo project which is essentially a cap. doug agrees.

 

[cyberzero]

Gorm, I'm sorry that I cut off that point because I honestly copied it before you said that. Next time, I'll wait for you to finish your point, but there was no intention of unfairness.

 

[gorm]

no problem ^_^~

 

[Objection]

While I believe that Farfetch'd wasn't the best choice of pokemon to evolve, I think that scrapping the process and restarting is unfair on those who supported Farfetch'd. It's like being given a game you really like and then, just as you open the box, you're told that you have to give it back and wait three weeks.
Continuing now may seem unfair to those who opposed Farfetch'd, but it's like being told that the game you wanted isn't in stock right now, which is less annoying than the former scenario.

 

[Goodbar]

While I believe that Farfetch'd wasn't the best choice of pokemon to evolve, I think that scrapping the process and restarting is unfair on those who supported Farfetch'd. It's like being given a game you really like and then, just as you open the box, you're told that you have to give it back and wait three weeks.
Continuing now may seem unfair to those who opposed Farfetch'd, but it's like being told that the game you wanted isn't in stock right now, which is less annoying than the former scenario.

For those who really want farfetch'd, I don't think it's unfair, seeing as they still get to vote for it. However some people might have decided not to, but if we're truly trying to represent the community, we should be taking a revote since many were misinformed. If the community as a majority accepts farfecth'd, then it will win again, and CAP can only favor the majority. So imo it's a matter of whether the majority was represented best, and I personally don't think so, and redoing the poll will prove one way or the other

 

[Urza]

the thing is that the voting was legitimately done as the process stood at the time. that means that those votes were legitimate. just because there is a disagreement about the validity of the thought process going into those votes does not mean that they are invalid. the double-edged sword of democracy. everyone in good standing in the community gets to vote, for good or for ill.

that's why it bothers me that this is being allowed. yeah, i know it's just a pokemon website that is primarily focused on competitive battling, but CAP is also an experiment in what happens when the masses get to decide something directly.

 

[gorm]

there is no double edged sword. there is informed public and non informed public. the old process didnt really encourage thinking about it, it encouraged picking a pokemon that is fun to evolve.

that vote was borne of a bad process. i am 100% behind ignoring it.


if you want fetchd for evo you better be ready to make a great argument.