Stealth Rock: The Most Harmful Move In The Metagame

[jrrrrrrr]

The way I see it, there is no difference between unbanning something in the name of decentralization and banning something in the name of decentralization. Either way, the game which may not be centralized to begin with experiences sweeping changes, and we are left with a result that we don't even know how to compare to the original metagame. In context of the SR debate, if we banned SR we wouldn't necessarily be banning one move as much as we are allowing x number of pokemon to actually see competitive light. To me, making bans is much simpler than unbanning something, since the results are immediately apparent while the unbanning has the potential to actually break the game subtlely over long periods of time. My question wasn't so much "why was this unbanned" as it was "why should we not aim to ban things for the same reason? (centralization)". I was thinking two steps ahead but writing only one, so I was unclear about why I thought your post was backwards and I'm sorry for that.

And regardless of whether my interpretation of your post was correct, the point still stands that there is nothing as simple as Stealth Rock that eliminates so many choices from the game.

 

[Jumpman16]

The actual reason that we would consider unbanning something does not necessarily have to have anything to do with decentralization initially. If we have not experienced a pokemon or a move in the current metagame, an unbanishment has everything to do with addressing a formerly unquestioned precedent.

Sure, you have to have a good reason to actually unban things either way, but the point stands. We aren't going to randomly unban Rayquaza or Kyogre anytime soon because we can use our intuition to "theorymon" the right answer. This is why Deoxys-S was unbanned, and why Wobbuffet was unbanned—we hadn't seen how these pokemon would perform in the current DP metagame. This is also why we would even consider unbanning DX-S in "six months" as has been thrown around, and that's why I keep saying "metagame" instead of generation—things may have changed enough that we could then use the "this unbanishment may decentralize the metagame" idea instead of the "this unbanishment is to address formerly unquestioned precedent" idea. This is also why there is no sweeping opposition to unban Mew, Evasion Moves and even OHKO moves—they've been banned by precedent until this generation (and metagame), and in the interests of questioning that precedent sensibly (we can't tell if the unbanishment of any of these three things would break the current metagame), we will likely test all of these things eventually.

And in the future, please don't insult people even if you do think you understand their reasoning or stance. My recent discourse with AA may have been construed as an "attack", but nowhere did I actually "insult" him with anything that wasn't the truth (he has not demonstrated that he cares about the Smogon competitive battling community and had not proposed an alternative to our bold voting, even if the reasons he later gave were valid).

 

[ODDish]

Will the implication of Stealth Rock be considered on a tier by tier basis?

 

[Brawley]

Will the implication of Stealth Rock be considered on a tier by tier basis?

I assume it would be all tiers....

 

[Cynthia]

The question here is whether Stealth Rock is overcentralizing or not.

Stealth Rock is used a lot. There aren't any statistics to show exactly how much, but I would bet that 90% of teams carry it. It's hard to name many competetive SR-less teams.

Stealth Rock is uncounterable. It can be Rapid Spinned away, but that requires switching in a spinner, using a rather ineffective move and hoping they don't block you with a ghost. Stealth Rock is unblockable and takes as many turns to set up as it does to Spin it away.

All teams must deal with Stealth Rock. The number of SR weak Pokes in OU is few, and that's only because these Pokemon are so powerful they can withstand it. Compare this to the large number of Pokemon in BL, crippled by their weakness to Rock.

Is it overcentralizing? I do not have the answer. But there's quite a bit of evidence against it.

 

[Jumpman16]

i thought we decided to throw the word "overcentralizing" out the window in these discussions

 

[Bologo]

Let's look at the BL pokemon of these SR weak types and see what else is wrong with them:

Fire

Arcanine: Bad movepool, not particularly good or bad at any role. Howl is its only way of boosting Attack, and is a very slow way of doing it. Hard to switch in during OU matches due to common weaknesses in Water, Rock and Ground, regardless of SR weak.

Blaziken: Not even SR weak, but is outclassed by Infernape besides a few rather specific niche roles.

Charizard: Its only really good moveset is extremely predictable, and is already really risky to try and pull off, this is the BellyZard moveset. In this moveset, Stealth Rock arguably helps it by getting him to 25% health faster, for an easier Salac boost. He has 3 common weaknesses in Water, Electric, and Rock (4x). All of his other movesets are often done much better by Infernape, except in certain situations where a Ground immunity is needed on a team.

Entei: Has a horrendous movepool, and 3 common weaknesses to Rock, Water, and Ground, making it hard to switch him in. Arcanine does what it does, but better, and Arcanine has already been explained.

Houndoom: Has terrible Defense, and average Special Defense. Its 95 base Speed is not enough to compensate for the bad defenses and 4 very common weaknesses in Fighting, Rock, Water, and Ground. This makes it hard to switch in, and very hard to sweep without paralysis on the opponent's fast attackers.

Magmortar: Has the 3 common weaknesses of a pure Fire-type, which aren't helped by a base 67 Defense, and a base 83 Speed is simply not very good. If he had just a bit more Speed, he'd be much closer to OU, regardless of his Stealth Rock weakness thanks to his beefy offenses, but the Speed is what's keeping him down.

Moltres: 3 weaknesses to common attacking types in Water, Electric, and Rock (4x), which really hinder his survivability, regardless of SR. 90 base Speed means that his sweeping ability is somewhat hindered since so many OU pokemon are faster than him, and have super-effective moves on him. The 3 huge weaknesses he has make it hard for him to play defensively as well, especially because of how offensive the metagame has gotten.

Typhlosion: His best moveset (Choice Scarf) is extremely predictable. Choice Specs has very few options, and the Sunny Day sets are screwed by Sandstorm. That, combined with the common weaknesses, and mediocre defenses make people not want to use it enough to make it become OU.

Ice

Abomasnow: Was OU for a very long time. Having 7 weaknesses, with 3 of them being to very common types (Rock, Fighting, 4x Fire), doesn't help it to stay alive at all, and neither does its 60 base Speed. Its actual stats aren't exactly the most impressive out there either.

Articuno: Has one of the worst type combinations in the game, regardless of what SR does to it. It has a lot of trouble walling opponents with only 2 resistances and 1 immunity, with the resistances being to very uncommon types. Add on the weaknesses to Fire, Electric, Steel, and Rock (4x), and that makes it very hard for Arty to switch in even when Stealth Rock isn't up. Taking away Stealth Rock arguably hurts Articuno in a way, because his only other form of real damage besides Ice Beam is gone, because he now has to rely on his teammates having only Spikes/Toxic Spikes up if he wants to utilize Roar very well, and those are learned by few. Articuno also has an awful movepool, with very few offensive moves, and support moves that are learned by several other pokemon that don't have a huge amount of weaknesses, and basically depends completely on its stats. It may be a Garchomp counter without Stealth Rock, but once Garchomps just start running Stone Edge, Articuno's just going to go back down in usage if it went up at all.

Regice: It only has 1 resistance (to Ice), and 3 big weaknesses (Fire, Fighting, Rock) with 1 not-so-huge weakness (Steel). This makes it totally inferior to Blissey at Special Walling, and only useful in niche situations. He doesn't even have a 50% recovery move, which is a huge hindrance to its walling ability already, regardless of SR.

Flying

Aerodactyl: Its 5 weaknesses are a huge hindrance. Coupled with bad defenses, and the advent of the Choice Scarf, it's no longer faster than pretty much everything out there. With Stealth Rock gone, it actually loses one of its strategies with Taunt, and since it's often used as a lead meaning that it doesn't take SR damage all that often, SR being gone may actually be a hindrance to it, since that strategy is what's raising its usage right now.

Crobat: Its type coverage is very bad, and the non-STAB moves it has have only average BP. It's very predictable since it almost always runs Hypnosis, and though it has some potentially awesome move combinations, such as Nasty Plot + Hypnosis, or Hypnosis + Brave Bird, they are illegal, which ruins his usefulness. He has a niche as the fastest sleeper in the game, but that one niche is not enough to bring him up to OU status.

Honchkrow: Though it does have 100 base HP, 52 base defenses a piece is just bad, and makes it really hard for this guy to survive. Having only 71 base Speed, and 3 common weaknesses does not help him survive or sweep any teams. It also has a pretty bad movepool, especially when it's resorting to using Steel Wing on its Choice Band/Scarf set. If it had more Speed, it would most likely be very close to OU, but it's stuck at 71 base Speed, which just isn't fast enough for people to want to use him enough to make him OU.

Ninjask: It has 5 weaknesses, all of which are pretty common, and regardless of SR, most strong neutral attacks KO him anyway (even some resisted ones do). He's also extremely predictable, since the Baton Passing set is his only really good set. He has a lot of trouble trying to sweep at all since he has awful type coverage, with only Bug/Dark/Flying moves to attack with (I'm not counting Dig). There are so many ways to destroy him and stop him from Baton Passing as well. It's very doubtful that he would care much about Stealth Rock, because he's often used to Baton Pass, and then only come back in if he absolutely has to, hence why he's often used as a lead.

Staraptor: Already has lots of trouble surviving attacks, particularly special attacks because of Intimidate. 3 very common weaknesses don't really help this either. People tend to shy away from Staraptor because its most powerful attack has massive recoil damage, which coupled with bad defenses, make it die easier than it already does. Unfortunately, a lot of fast sweepers and Choice Scarfers can outrun it as well, which doesn't help to compensate for the defenses.

Bug

Pinsir: Outclassed by Heracross, and with bad defenses, especially on the special defensive side, it's hard to find a reason to use it in OU, besides Mold Breaker, which simply isn't enough for people to suddenly use it enough to make it OU since it only really helps to beat Weezing.

Shedinja: Has so many other problems it's not even funny. Banning SR would have no effect on this guy's usage, since it still requires way too much support to work properly. Sandstorm/Hail/Toxic Spikes/Spikes/etc. still ruin it, and there's no getting around that unfortunately.


Basically what I'm trying to say from this list, is that banning Stealth Rock is not a guarantee that these pokemon will be used more than they already are, or that they will become OU, because most of them already have huge problems that hinder them a lot more than SR do.

I'm reposting this in PR, because I feel that banning Stealth Rock to raise Ice/Flying/Bug/Fire pokemon usage is not a very good argument, and this should show the insane amounts of problems that most of the pokemon already have in OU.

I can expand on the list with UU Ice/Flying/Fire/Bug pokemon if you guys want more than just the BLs (though it will take forever, and I hardly see the point). I feel very strongly about keeping Stealth Rock allowed, because just feel like it's one of the token moves that actually defines DP. Every generation has had a move that was annoying as hell to deal with. RB had the no-recharge-on-KO Hyper Beam. GS had Rest which was on a huge amount of pokemon and basically defined the stall game in that generation. RS had Sand Stream in general. Now DP has Stealth Rock.

For all of those moves in each generation, they created a great deal of annoyance for people since it neutered a lot of strategies. However, you should tell that to the pokemon that actually utilized those strategies, because they were the ones that were actually made useful by them.

Unlike everything else that's banned, Stealth Rock is something that actually adds a whole bunch of strategy to the game, and makes a lot of pokemon add something useful to their team instead of being dead weight. For instance, you'd rarely see Bronzong on the huge abundance of teams anymore unless it was there to use Trick Room or to counter DX-S. Stealth Rock is one way that he actually supports the team.

If we take away Stealth Rock so that a bunch of pokemon with a huge amount of other problems have one less problem to deal with, who's to say that the metagame is even profiting from this?

Thanks for reading.

 

[Brawley]

-Abamasnow: Will lead off hail teams which will rise with no rocks, in my mind definatly OU.
-Aerodactyle: An amazing cber now that it doesnt have 25% taken away, and a very awesome revenge killer. OU.
-Arcanine: Im kind aon the fence but Im leaning towards BL with that movepool.
-Articuno: Will be a good dragon counter, and can toxic stall stuff, lastly as mentioned before can wall a lot fo things with zapdos. OU
-Charizard: I'm think OU as it can belly drum easier, and the specs set is fun, but Im not to sure.
-Crobat: BL, as it really will still be used as a lead.
-Entei: BL, its movepool sucks.
-Houndoom: BL, horrid defenses, but can set up easily.
-Honchkrow: slim chance of OU, this bird isnt that special.
-Magmortar: I havent seen what this an do, say I wont say anything.
-Moltres: Pretty hard to take down is the best mixape counter, OU.
-Ninjask: Its always used as a lead, but with no more stealth rock it can come in more, but I still say BL.
-Pinser: Outclassed by heracross, BL
-Regice: Great wall, and packs a punch. OU
-Shedinja: -.- sandstorm and hail, BL
-Starapter: Heavy hitter, that can come in more, with decent stats. OU
-Typhlosion: Both the specs and scarf hit so hard its not funny, OU.

I also havent hit UU so there might be more. :p

I'm reposting mine here, as I disagree with Bologo on some of them, and I havent even started on UU, and I believe although some pokemon who have stealth rock might decline they certainly wont be useless, for example gliscor still walls heracross and lucario, and bronzong is one hell of a wall.

 

[Bologo]

I'm reposting mine here, as I disagree with Bologo on some of them, and I havent even started on UU, and I believe although some pokemon who has stealth rock might decline they certainly wont be useless, for example gliscor still walls heracross and lucario, and bronzong is one hell of a wall.

You can say that exact same argument for the other side as well.

Though some of the SR weak pokemon have declined in use thanks to Stealth Rock being introduced, they certainly aren't useless either. For example, Crobat still does a hell of a job walling a lot of Fighting pokemon, and Regice still walls a lot of stuff, including the majority of the Bulky Waters out there.

 

[Brawley]

You can say that exact same argument for the other side as well.

Though some of the SR weak pokemon have declined in use thanks to Stealth Rock being introduced, they certainly aren't useless either. For example, Crobat still does a hell of a job walling a lot of Fighting pokemon, and Regice still walls a lot of stuff, including the majority of the Bulky Waters out there.

It's not the same for the other side of the argument, as with stealth rock on the field those weak to it are limited to the chances they get to switch in, and overall survivability, where as if you have swampert with no stealth rock, it can still counter stuff and pack quite a punch.

 

[Bologo]

It's not the same for the other side of the argument, as with stealth rock on the field those weak to it are limited to the chances they get to switch in, and overall survivability, where as if you have swampert with no stealth rock, it can still counter stuff and pack quite a punch.

I understand that, but that still does not mean that the SR weak pokemon are useless, which was my point. You seem to overestimate the survivability of those SR weak pokemon when SR isn't up. The ones that aren't already OU have a lot of trouble switching in due to their horrible types, so they are already limited to the chances they get to switch in. The only ones that have good survivability without SR are Articuno, Moltres, and Regice. Even then, they have problems switching in. I don't think that banning Stealth Rock is justified so that those 3 pokemon can become closer to OU.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I understand that, but that still does not mean that the SR weak pokemon are useless, which was my point. You seem to overestimate the survivability of those SR weak pokemon when SR isn't up. The ones that aren't already OU have a lot of trouble switching in due to their horrible types, so they are already limited to the chances they get to switch in. The only ones that have good survivability without SR are Articuno, Moltres, and Regice. Even then, they have problems switching in. I don't think that banning Stealth Rock is justified so that those 3 pokemon can become closer to OU.

If I want to use a pokemon but can't because its performance is hindered too much by Stealth Rock, which is virutally omnipresent in today's metagame, that is severely limiting creativity in team designs, leading to an extremely stale metagame. Stealth Rock is simply too common and easy to set up to be counting on a pokemon only when SR isn't up. It's not that people are underestimating survivability when SR isn't up, its that assuming that SR isn't up is not a reasonable thing to do when planning out a serious battle. Moltres may be an amazing Lucario counter on paper, but are you really going to use that as its main job on your team? I don't think so.

Having field effects that always hit for SE damage regardless of whether or not you made the right switch is punishing to the player by limiting their options drastically in battles. Obviously I am not going to switch my Gyarados into a Tyranitar's Stone Edge, I am going to be switching it into Close Combats and Earthquakes. Gyarados suddenly isn't a Heracross counter when its taking 45% (25% + 20ish% from CC) every time it switches in on a move that it resists. Gyarados suddenly doesnt want to come in on a Metagross' Meteor Mash because of SR damage. It's not just about having more options in the team builder by making 3 pokemon more viable, its about having more options in battles as well.

Even though I feel that keeping defense from ruling is a good thing, having an option as easy as Stealth Rock punishing the player even for making the right move is very questionable in a balanced competitive environment.

 

[Bologo]

If I want to use a pokemon but can't because its performance is hindered too much by Stealth Rock, which is virutally omnipresent in today's metagame, that is severely limiting creativity in team designs, leading to an extremely stale metagame.

Ok, and what makes you think that the current OU SR weak pokemon wouldn't become overpowered? When things like Salamence, Gyarados and Yanmega start showing up on a huge amount of teams, how limited do you think the game will be then? Also, keep in mind that a lot of walls will go down in popularity, thanks to one of their best utility moves being gone, making it hard for some of them to do anything besides wall.

Stealth Rock is simply too common and easy to set up to be counting on a pokemon only when SR isn't up. It's not that people are underestimating survivability when SR isn't up, its that assuming that SR isn't up is not a reasonable thing to do when planning out a serious battle. Moltres may be an amazing Lucario counter on paper, but are you really going to use that as its main job on your team? I don't think so.

Ok, and that's why I said overestimating, not underestimating. I was saying that the SR weak pokemon aren't as sturdy as people would think, even with SR up.

Having field effects that always hit for SE damage regardless of whether or not you made the right switch is punishing to the player by limiting their options drastically in battles. Obviously I am not going to switch my Gyarados into a Tyranitar's Stone Edge, I am going to be switching it into Close Combats and Earthquakes. Gyarados suddenly isn't a Heracross counter when its taking 45% (25% + 20ish% from CC) every time it switches in on a move that it resists. Gyarados suddenly doesnt want to come in on a Metagross' Meteor Mash because of SR damage. It's not just about having more options in the team builder by making 3 pokemon more viable, its about having more options in battles as well.

Having something to beat Gyarados easier is good. I suppose that I do agree with your first statement in this paragraph though. I don't understand why switching has to be a free move all the time though. At least with Stealth Rock, you're forced to make your switches carefully, which arguably adds skill to the game.

Even though I feel that keeping defense from ruling is a good thing, having an option as easy as Stealth Rock punishing the player even for making the right move is very questionable in a balanced competitive environment.

Ok.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Ok, and what makes you think that the current OU SR weak pokemon wouldn't become overpowered? When things like Salamence, Gyarados and Yanmega start showing up on a huge amount of teams, how limited do you think the game will be then? Also, keep in mind that a lot of walls will go down in popularity, thanks to one of their best utility moves being gone, making it hard for some of them to do anything besides wall.

Salamence, Gyarados and Yanmega are already showing up on a huge amount of teams, which is evidenced by the fact that they are all OU. Even though it keeps some of these offensive threats in check, it also keeps their counters in check too.

And about your second point here, lots of walls dont mind having nothing to do. Swampert just sat there and took a beating in Advance and didn't mind having no utility moves. Cresselia seems to be doing well for itself. So is Zapdos. All the wall has to do is force a switch to do its job. Forcing switches keeps your opponent from executing their strategy and sweeping you and allows you to accumulate residual damage. Don't underestimate the power of a wall just because it can't necessarily OHKO everything in one go.

Ok, and that's why I said overestimating, not underestimating. I was saying that the SR weak pokemon aren't as sturdy as people would think, even with SR up.

But even if they aren't as sturdy as people may think, they are a hell of a lot less sturdy without 25% or even 12.5% of their HP. Stealth Rock isn't even giving them a chance.

Also, god damn have you ever played against an Articuno? Those jerkasses are like impossible to kill. Just like you can say that not all SR weak pokemon are sturdy, quite a few of them are and they are completely useless now due to this one move.

 

[Bologo]

And about your second point here, lots of walls dont mind having nothing to do. Swampert just sat there and took a beating in Advance and didn't mind having no utility moves. Cresselia seems to be doing well for itself. So is Zapdos. All the wall has to do is force a switch to do its job. Forcing switches keeps your opponent from executing their strategy and sweeping you and allows you to accumulate residual damage. Don't underestimate the power of a wall just because it can't necessarily OHKO everything in one go.

With all due respect, Swampert still has the massive 110 base Attack to punish things with, and the double STAB on Water and Ground moves helped it do a lot more than take a beating in ADV. Cresselia can also status things with Thunder Wave, but also keep in mind that Cresselia's been going down in usage for a long time (not even in top 20 anymore), perhaps because it doesn't do much except wall and use Thunder Wave. Zapdos does a whole bunch of stuff besides walling, and you've even shown that with the Choice Scarf set that you used. BP Zapdos also supports the team immensely, and can still punish things off of the huge attack score. The only one there that's actually a pure wall is Cresselia, the others are more tankish.

Believe me, I agree that the power of a wall shouldn't be underestimated because they can't OHKO everything, but they should be able to do something other than just sit there and take hits. Otherwise they become set-up bait, which is one thing that good walls should be able to avoid.

Also, god damn have you ever played against an Articuno? Those jerkasses are like impossible to kill. Just like you can say that not all SR weak pokemon are sturdy, quite a few of them are and they are completely useless now due to this one move.

I've played against Articuno, but it really wasn't that hard to kill IMO. I don't know if it was just my team, but I just find its weaknesses so easy to exploit. A lot of people already carry Fire moves for Skarm/Forretress, Electric moves for Gyarados, and Rock moves since it's generally a good attacking type when complemented with other attack types, that it's just not super-hard to kill.

I'll admit that some pokemon are hindered by Stealth Rock, but I really just don't think that any are actually useless.

 

[Jumpman16]

bumping this by request and because every time i read any revamp/analysis it says "with SR support" and "provided you have SR down" like at least twice and well if that isnt an indication that our metagame literally and figuratively revolves around this broken move then i dont know what is. weigh in here again guys...when should we considered testing this, if we dont agree that sr falls under my definition of suspect:

Any Pokémon, move or clause that respectively may benefit competitive standard or uber battle if moved or implemented elsewhere.

 

[Mekkah]

Further evidence how Stealth Rock became a massive central point is all those Pokemon revolved around getting Stealth Rock in there, preventing Stealth Rock from others, and not caring about much else (Azelf anyone?). They have cut back since the Deoxys-S ban, but they're still there.

 

[Taylor]

I'm interested labeling Stealth Rock a suspect, given its overwhelming popularity.

 

[Colonel M]

I tend to disagree. I know that many of us have seen Stealth Rock added into our calculations, but it is because it is effective. I know some may -think- this is broken, but I'm not sure how far we want to assume this.

My latest team actually has no Stealth Rock user at all. I can attest that many teams can still work without the move, despite how useful it is. And my ranking may not be the highest; however, it is definitely not the lowest either. Its just extra damage, and without it you would see a skyrocket usage of the obvious DD Outrage Salamence, Shaymin-S, and even *gasp* Moltres! And, I feel that without Stealth Rock our Ho-oh test will simply be useless.

Probably not the best way to explain this, but I feel that banning moves sounds kind of dumb if you ask me. I just don't want this to become a witch-hunt and such. By this statement, I mean I don't want Stealth Rock ditched just because it makes Moltres and Articuno impossible to use.

 

[Syberia]

I see no harm in testing this. The fact that many teams are fully willing to sacrifice a pokemon just to get SR on the field can attest to how good it is. Maybe not broken, but good.

 

[TAY]

I would be interested in labeling Stealth Rock a suspect.

I'm going to draw a parallel here with my brief time playing Magic: The Gathering. Back when Mirrodin was type two, Skullclamp was banned because literally every deck ran 4 copies of it...the card was just so incredibly useful that every remotely viable deck type benefited from it. Stealth Rock IMO has achieved that status: every single team, no matter what the type, has its power increased dramatcally by the use of Stealth Rock.

I don't care that it is centralizing, as lots of moves (Earthquake!) already are; nor do I care that it completely removes certain pokemon from the game, as, once again, certain moves already do that. What I do care about is the fact that this one move is so incredibly benficial that the first move used in probably 85% of games is either Stealth Rock or Taunt; that every single team archetype benefits immensely from using this move on the first turn; that sacrificing one of your only six team members to use this move is actually an advantage; that a huge portion of the viable metagame learns Stealth Rock; and that spinning it away is a retarded hassle compared to setting it up.

Also there is the "risk vs reward" factor that every other move has (i.e. resists, waste a turn, could be removed). SR is just a huge fucking reward in one turn.

Those are the reasons that I see in favor of removing SR...here are the reasons against:

• Stall becomes a lot less viable. As much as I am annoyed by stall-ish metagames, removing this main counter to Salamence and Gyarados would be a huge blow against and entire team archtype.
• I am seriously worried about the onset of focus sash users. Spikes is uncommon enough that the horribly gimmicky focus sash could easily become a frequently used item, which imo would hurt the metagame.
• It is very possible to both build and play around Stealth Rock. Every common move centralizes the metagame to some extent, so why should we seek to remove SR just because it (arguably) centralizes more?
• Removing Stealth Rock would likely centralize the game around the already-incredibly-useful Flying type pokemon (Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos, Skymin). All of these pokemon are really fucking scary even with SR up, and without it they would become even more powerful (especially considering the resist berries).

 

[Lee]

LonelyNess: I want to rebutt TAY in the policy review thread regarding Stealth Rock
LonelyNess: Would you mind being my voice?
Lee: are we supposed to do that?
LonelyNess: As far as I know, it's not against the rules
Lee: with all due respect if people wanted to see what you had to say you'd have access :x
LonelyNess: Fine, I'll just get someone else to do it.
LonelyNess: And yes, you are allowed to do it.
LonelyNess: Obi / j7r have done it before
Lee: go on then
Lee: if they've done it, I guess we can give it a go. If it's against the rules, it's easily deleted

I have a few problems with TAY's reasons why Stealth Rock is OK. I'll go at them one at a time.

I don't care that it is centralizing, as lots of moves (Earthquake!) already are; nor do I care that it completely removes certain pokemon from the game, as, once again, certain moves already do that.

There is a difference between the centralizaton that Earthquake and other attacking moves do to a Metagame, and the centrilization that Stealth Rock does. The biggest difference is that without going to extreme measures to stop the opponent from setting up Stealth Rock, you can not avoid it. And after it is set up, unlike an attacking move, you _can_not_ avoid taking damage.

could be removed

Unless there comes to be some amazing sweeper that is ridiculously good without Stealth Rock in play that actually gives some reason to remove Stealth Rock from play and waste a turn spinning, spinning is a losing action. You aren't generating any advantage, you are eliminating already gained advantage from your opponent. And considering that the Pokemon that you are opening up aren't worth wasting a turn of set up just to get them in, it's a losing endeavor to try and get rid of Rocks. Why use Moltres and have to baby it all game, when I can use "not Moltres" and have the same effect but without all the unncessary babying? Spinning is a retarded action, unless you're facing a full on Stall team, because at that point the amount of spikes you remove is potentially far greater. If you're only spinning to remove Rocks, however, then it's simply not worth it.

Stall becomes a lot less viable. As much as I am annoyed by stall-ish metagames, removing this main counter to Salamence and Gyarados would be a huge blow against and entire team archtype.

I actually find that to be completely untrue. Very rarely is a Stall team's answer to a Pokemon completely reliant on Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock is just the "icing on the cake" for doing what it would be doing anyway, forcing switches. If anything Stealth Rock impedes stall teams because it penalizes the Stall team for doing what it must, switching around its team repeatedly in order to stop threats.

I am seriously worried about the onset of focus sash users. Spikes is uncommon enough that the horribly gimmicky focus sash could easily become a frequently used item, which imo would hurt the metagame.

How is Focus Sash any more of a gimmick than say, a Type Resisting berry? Or a Choice Scarf slapped on a Pokemon that is generally not used as a Scarfer in order to randomly outspeed certain Pokemon. Have you ever been outsped by a a Choice Scarf Togekiss? I have, and I thought "what the fuck? Who scarves a Togekiss?"

If anything, the resurgance of Focus Sash will merely make players be a little bit more cautious when playing. "Sure, I could OHKO it, but it might have Sash, and it can OHKO me too. I should go the cautious route and go to a more concrete check"

And I don't think cautious play is "bad for the metagame"

It is very possible to both build and play around Stealth Rock. Every common move centralizes the metagame to some extent, so why should we seek to remove SR just because it (arguably) centralizes more?

I hate to harp on the word "centralize" because so few people know what it means (even I don't know what it truly means fully). But I think the reason it should be removed, is because it doesn't just centralize the metagame a_little_bit more, it's a HELL of a lot more centralized because of it. Look at the preponderance of Suicide Leads and doing "anything to get rocks up" for proof of this. Stealth Rock in terms of centralization is in a whole different league compared to other moves.

Removing Stealth Rock would likely centralize the game around the already-incredibly-useful Flying type pokemon (Salamence, Gyarados, Zapdos, Skymin). All of these pokemon are really fucking scary even with SR up, and without it they would become even more powerful (especially considering the resist berries).

Like I said earlier, most teams already have concrete answers to these Pokemon. They don't "need" Stealth Rock to beat them, it's just the icing on the cake for forcing them to switch out. If anything, I would fear Salamence a hell of a lot less if I didn't have to worry about Stealth Rock because a lot of potential counters come about because of its removal. Stealth Rock helps these offensive behemoths more than it hurts them by far. I think we all know that a Gyarados at 50% can still sweep a team, but there is a BIG difference in a counter at ~80% health and a counter at 68% health.

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Stealth Rock promotes an unhealthy metagame by penalizing one of the most fundamental tools that should be available to a battler, switching. Why do you think we banned Wobbufett?

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

TAY's post is just about perfect. I'd definitely label it suspect at this point and since it's something that's already part of the OU metagame I'd say it should be tested prior to testing the ubers for possible movedown.

 

[X-Act]

I just want to say that the uncommon use of Spikes is EXACTLY because Stealth Rock is so prevalent. If Stealth Rock is banned, Spikes usage will obviously rise... making Focus Sash balanced.

 

[Tangerine]

I just want to say that the uncommon use of Spikes is EXACTLY because Stealth Rock is so prevalent. If Stealth Rock is banned, Spikes usage will obviously rise... making Focus Sash balanced.

Uh, nope. Spikes is uncommon exactly because there aren't many useful spikers within the metagame, while anything and everything can learn Stealth Rock.

Anyway, I'm definitely against Stealth Rock being a suspect. I believe that banning Stealth Rock will create a radically different metagame from the one with Stealth Rock - more like two "branches" of OU. It's more of the case where removing Stealth Rock would be effectively changing how we play Pokemon in general. Stealth Rock isn't stopping the metagame like Garchomp nor is does it change how we play the game like Wobbuffet, it is such a major force in the game that it *is* how we play the game, and the game honestly is perfectly fine with Stealth Rock. Why intervene? We still have a perfectly competitive OU metagame with it, and it's just another element people just deal with. I honeslty think SR will change the game into a whole new one which is completely unnecessary.

Basically, my point of view is that we don't need to intervene unless it is necessary - and I don't think it is necessary to intervene against Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock is more like the defining characteristic of D/P, rather than something that makes D/P "broken" or "unplayable". Something is only "broken" if it breaks the entire metagame with it and Stealth Rock definitely has not done that.

that sacrificing one of your only six team members to use this move is actually an advantage;

If people find it useful to run Suicide leads.... let them. You'll find a way to beat the suicide leads (as we have already seen, there are ways to stop them), means that people will running less suicide leads. If people find it useful to go out of their way to set up Rocks, people will find other advantageous moves that they can do that undermines it. The idea is that it wont stay advantageous for long.

Stealth Rock promotes an unhealthy metagame by penalizing one of the most fundamental tools that should be available to a battler, switching. Why do you think we banned Wobbufett?

This reminds me of skiddle's "fundamental right of switching" shenanigans.

Switching is arguably one of the best "moves" in the game. SR is just something that makes insignificantly less viable. Don't compare when the comparison isn't valid. Removing the ability to switch and creating more incentive not to switch is definitely different.