The Eternal Question

Which of the following is the best balance of power vs. accuracy and effects?

  • Super powerful/Pretty accurate but negative side effect, ex. hyper beam, draco meteor

    Votes: 14 6.0%

  • Powerful/Pretty accurate ex. fire blast

    Votes: 90 38.6%

  • Decent power/Very accurate ex. flamethrower

    Votes: 113 48.5%

  • Low power/Very accurate + effects ex. lava plume

    Votes: 16 6.9%
  • Total voters
    233

Luxormaniac

Throughout the pokemon universe, there is a single question-
To which your answer is the difference between life and death.

Come on, you know what I'm talking about.
What the poll choices mean:
A) Strong but with ANY negative side affect. brave bird/close combat/focus punch etc. included.
B) Strong with no negatives but lower than 100% accuracy. ex. hydro pump/thunder NOT any of the above
C) Less strong with ~100% accuracy.
D) Weak but with added coolness or PRIORITIES. bullet punch/extremespeed/discharge, etc.

And please! This isn't just a poll. It's a discussion with a poll in it. Please discuss!

The centuries old "flamethrower vs. fire blast" and the newer "rock slide vs. stone edge" debates are constantly brought up, but never definetly answered. Looking on any page on smogon, such as a salamence set, you'll see "flamethrower/fire blast" listed rather than just one. Here, i hope to promote discussion that will once and for all answer this most important question. And not just these two, but all higher power/lower accuracy vs. lower power/higher accuracy debates, such as waterfall vs. aqua tail.

And it doesn't stop there. I also hope for discussion of two moves with identical accuracy, with one having a higher base power and one with a greater chance of an effect. An example of this would be discharge vs. thunderbolt. Is the added chance of paralysis worth the tradeoff in power? only on tanks? lets make this discussion really good and worth reading and posting on so that i get a good image =)

Also, low power but with effects includes priority moves. ex. bullet punch

There is no Pokemaniac in the world who hasn't, at some time, pondered the answer to this question. Your words can help mold the future metagame into what it will be.

A few last words on my part:
  • If you can quantify (put into numbers) your decision, please do so.
  • Please dont make really long posts like this- I know you have a lot to say but try to keep them relatively short.
  • Please comply with all of Smogon's rules, etcetera.
  • Don't do anything stupid.
  • I kind of like the idea of color coding all these debates. Sound good to you? If yes, then use the color code yourself.
  • GL guys and i hope we gg this question forever!
 
I always prefer the more powerful move over the weaker yet slightly more accurate version. It seems to always net more KO's and leave me at an advantage. I use Specs Tran. And if I absorb a fire attack I am able to 2HKO a Blissey as long as Rocks and Sand Stream are down (which is almost always) with Fire Blast. If I switched to Flamethrower then I wouldn't be able to leaving me at a disadvantage against Blissey's when I use my Heatran. With Thunderbolt + Discharge I'm positive that the added effect of Discharge doesn't make up for the lack of power that Thunderbolt has, once again getting kills. THough, for some reason whenever I need a water attack I ALWAYS go to Surf over Hydro Pump. I don't know why this is, I think it's because most waters don't need the extra power since they're usually bulky and are absorbing hits while not dishing them out.

So on Bulky pokemon I think the weaker and more accurate moves are more important than the hard hitting ones, while on sweepers you're going to need the power to turn those 3HKO's into 2HKO's
 
It depends on what Pokemon you're running, more offensive Pokemon should probably use the stronger attacks, but the higher chance of a secondary effect is more useful for Pokemon that'll be staying in to take a hit or two. I'd rather use Discharge on a Defensive Zapdos, and Thunderbolt on an Offensive one.
 
A few months ago, I would have always used the more accurate move over the inaccurate move, but now, since playing the game more and more, I tend to favour more powerful moves. On my Mixpert for example, I use Hydro Pump over Surf, BUT for some reason, on other pokes, i would use Surf. For an offensive Heatran set I go directly for Overheat or Fire Blast, whereas for a bulkier set I tend to favour Lava Plume for the burn hax (unless I have WoW on that set, then I favour Flamethrower).

But thats just me, everyone is different and may feel differently about their sets.
 
Hyper Beam and Draco Meteor do not deserved to be mentioned on the same line. Hyper Beam will almost always suck since you can't even switch out after using it, whereas Draco Meteor stills leaves you with either switching or letting loose with a STAB 70 Power attack.

This poll is misleading. Each effect has it's own pros and cons that must be taken into account when determining whether to use it on a specific Pokemon, and even when to use it in a specific situation if you have a choice between two of them.

For hit and run Pokemon that get in, hit something and immediately get back out, attacks like Draco Meteor, Leaf Storm, Overheat, and Psycho Boost are godly. You have no chance of an extended sweep with those attacks, but when your Pokemon can't sweep or isn't meant to anyway, you don't lose much from the SpA drop.

Sweepers, on the other hand, need to kill shit. Failing to KO the opposing Pokemon with an attack is often just as bad as missing. They need all the power they can get, so use attacks like Fire Blast and Stone Edge to make sure that when they hit, they get the kill they need. Thunder, Blizzard, and Hydro Pump's accuracy might be too shaky to make the cut over Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Surf, but weaker options like Lava Plume or Dischange are totally out of the question. Sweepers aim to inflict the Ultimate Status on their opponent's, the KO, and they can't be fussing around with Burns or Paralysis.

However, on Pokemon whose natural role is supporting the team, weaker options such as Lava Plume and Discharge have much more utility. The lesser power is offset by the fact that a Bulkier Pokemon should have more chances to attack, and the heightened status chance fits naturally with the Tank's normal role of supporting the team and crippling the opponent for a sweep than actually killing stuff itself.

Finally, Aqua Tail vs Waterfall. I am of a mind that whenever there is a choice, unless Aqua Tail's extra power can give you crucial OHKOs or 2HKOs against problem Pokemon, Waterfall is always superior. Here's my reasoning:
  1. Waterfall is 100% accurate and will never miss (barring Sand Veil, Brightpowder, you get the idea). Aqua Tail has 90% accuracy. With Waterfall, you don't have to worry about an inconvinient miss.
  2. The power difference isn't big, only about 13%. Fire Blast, in contrast, has over double the advantage over Flamethrower, with about a 30% power increase. 10% acccuracy drop for a 13% poser increase isn't as good as a 15% accuracy drop for a 30+% power boost. By this same reasoning, Blizzard and Thunder are worse off than Aqua Tail, since you have a 30% drop in accuracy for the same 30% power boost as Fire Blast. Hydro Pump fares slightly better, with a 20% accuracy drop for the same power boost over Surf. However, since most Water Pokemon tend to be of the Bulky variety, Surf's consistency and extra PP make it the superior choice.
  3. Waterfall has a 20% flinch chance, while Aqua tail has no extra effect. If you have even a remote chance of outspeeding any of an opponent's potential Pokemon, flinch is awesome.
I think that about covers it.
 
It's specific to the pokemon. I prefer Lava Plume on any Heatran, since it punishes even good switch-ins like Tyranitar, and allows you to stay in and out-stall Fire Blast Scarftran. Only very rarely has the loss of base power cost me a sweep, and the burns have helped many, many times. On the other hand, while I would always use Discharge over TB with Zapdos, I would almost always use TB over Discharge on a Scizor-killer Magnezone.
 
For Fire blast vs flamethrower tbolt vs thunder blizzard vs ice beam and hydro pump vs surf I use whichever one is more powerful on average factoring in accuracy. So going by that rule, I almost always use Fire Blast, tbolt, ice beam, and surf. Thunder's paralysis rate doesn't really make up for its shitty accuracy.

With lower power moves that have a high chance of an extra effect that there higher power counterparts don't have, I usually go for the higher power moves on both sweepers and tanks. Sweepers aren't going to care about a higher chance of burning or paralyzing something because they're trying to deal out as much damage as possible. On tanks like Zapdos, restalk Rotom, and restalk Heatran I often find that thunderbolt and fire blast (sleep talk ignores pp making this a non-issue) are superior to lava plume and discharge because you'll have minimal special attack investment on these kinds of pokemon so I'm not really happy when discharge won't 2HKO vaporeon or when Lava Plume won't 1HKO skymin. Basically you're too easily walled. Flamethrower and Thunderbolt still have a 10% chance of an added effect which is better than nothing.

With stone edge vs rock slide, I always use stone edge because rock slide is simply too weak and still has imperfect accuracy going against it. On pokemon like salamence, using rock slide would be a waste when a STAB outrage is going to be stronger than a SE rock slide. The only time I use rock slide is on walls like cradily who don't use restalk because stone edge runs into pp issues. I always use waterfall>aqua tail because waterfall's 20% flinch rate makes it stronger on average than Aqua tail which has a 10% of missing.
 
before i never said anything about the first poll choice- super powerful but with negative effects. The example is hyper beam. Do blast burn, hydro cannon, and frenzy plant really deserve the total ostracism we've given them? I have experience with a porygon-z running choice scarf hyper beam. More than once just using hyper beam would give me multiple KO's in a row. Has there ever been that CM jirachi that you needed extra oomph for? a curselax that stone edge could not destroy? a time you felt like you needed rock wrecker instead?

I think that there are times when you're low on hp and just need one final blow. Turn that 2HKO into a OHKO.
And i dont just mean hyper beam type moves. Also focus punch, flare blitz type recoil moves, superpower, and other high risk/high reward sort of moves. Notice that all of these have their place.

And i think that low power/high accuracy + effects category moves include priorities. Does bullet punch have high power? no. Does it have a time and place for sweepers? Oh yes.

Hopefully my clarifications next to the poll (in my first post) help show what i mean.
And please, dont just yell your opinion! say WHY! like, do some kinda math wizardry to show why one is better. for example:

The Luxor move test- patent pending
(power x accuracy) + weighted bonus of extra effects = SCORE
weighted bonus is how much extra worth effects have. fire blast burn is near worthless, but lava plume burn's weighted score depends on how effectively the poke uses the extra burn chance. basically is how much you think the effect helps tankiness or a priority helps sweeping.
Fire Blast- (120 x 85) + ~0 = 10200
Flamethrower- (95 x 100) + ~0 = 9500
Lava Plume on a SWEEPER (not benefitting from burn)- (80 x 100) + ~0 = 8000
Lava Plume on a tank benefitting from burns- (80 x 100) + 2500 = 10500
Put reasoning like this up. This is why i think fire blast beats flamethrower. Tell me WHY
 
When it's a simple power/accuracy tradeoff, there are a few questions you can consider:

- What's the average power of the two moves? This is easy to work out - the move's power multiplied by its accuracy divided by 100. For flamethrower/fire blast:

Flamethrower: Average power 95
Fire Blast: Average power 102

What that means is that over a lot of uses, Fire Blast does more damage than Flamethrower - just. That's taking missing into account, but not the burn rates. So we should all use Fire Blast, right? Well, not quite...

- Another thing to consider is how much risk you want to expose yourself to. Giving someone a free round can be pretty big. Particularly if you're going for a sweep. Every time you use Fire Blast, there's a 15% chance of giving your opponent a free round - a chance that isn't present with Flamethrower. So where's the optimal point for risk? That's dependent on the individual concerned (I.e., how willing you are to risk being screwed over by the RNG. The far end of the scale is Sheer Cold, of course) and the pokemon concerned (Tanks can survive the unfortunate miss much better than sweepers). So if you're risk-averse, you should use Flamethrower, right? Well, not necessarily...

- Sometimes the extra kick can be extremely important - the general case is scoring an extra OHKO on some important pokemon. It's the reason so many Advance pokemon carried Fire Blast - some of them still do. Some could even learn Flamethrower - but they used Fire Blast because it was used to kill Skarmory before it could whirlwind you away. You wanted a OHKO - two hits just wasn't enough, so you needed the extra 25 base power.
 
Bogmire said:
For Fire blast vs flamethrower tbolt vs thunder blizzard vs ice beam and hydro pump vs surf I use whichever one is more powerful on average factoring in accuracy. So going by that rule, I almost always use Fire Blast, tbolt, ice beam, and surf. Thunder's paralysis rate doesn't really make up for its shitty accuracy.
Click to expand...

Hydro Pump's expected power is 96, while Surf's is only 95. Just a little nitpick...
 
Anything with less than 80-90 percent accuracy tends to turn me away, regardless of power or effects. Secondary effects don't matter if you have a hard time landing the move in the first place... Especially when there's a similar move that does almost the same thing, but with higher accuracy and lower power.

For moves that have similar accuracy but varying power or effects, I tend to look at the effect first, then the power, and compare them to the Pokemon in question. For example, on my Life Orb Hitmonchan, I opted to use Drain Punch over Close Combat. Why? Even with 252 Speed EVs, Hitmonchan isn't exactly what you'd call fast, so he needs to be able to take a couple hits if he's to be of any use. Unfortunately, he's rather frail as well, and using Close Combat only exacerbates the problem. So I opted for Drain Punch, which is still powerful enough to get the job done, but leaves him better off for the next Pokemon that switches in. It also works exceptionally well with Life Orb, recovering any previous recoil he's taken. However, if I were to use a Choice Scarf variant, for example, I would probably switch to Close Combat, since he would now be able to out-speed a lot more Pokemon that before and won't have to worry about recoil damage, thus he doesn't have to worry about taking as many hits.
 
I voted for the decent power/very accurate. I do not know how many times my opponent has tried to use something like Stone Edge and it has missed at a very crucial point in the game. If it is going to miss sometime why would you risk an important game on that?

It doesn't matter how much average power it has if it is within kill range. What matters then is the accuracy.
 
Typing like this is really annoying, especially when you use dramatic terms like "Life and Death".

Different moves apply in different situations. It depends on the battle conditions, the Pokémon, the damage output, the threats, etc.
 
I have no idea how you can put hyper beam and Draco Meteor in the same category (note one of those is capitalized for a show of respect). >>

On another note, it really depends like Chris said. Though I have a fondness for the "mop" (hit whatever hard!) attacks like Draco Meteor/Overheat, they aren't necessarily the better move.

For instance take just fire. Almost without a doubt Scarfran is best off with Fire Blast. Later in the game there is also a good chance it will be staying in for extended periods of time and needs to hit hard and fairly consistantly.

Mix-nape on the other hand, will always be switching between attacks on both physical and special side. It is also a mid-early wall breaker that is prone to being forced out. For these reasons Overheat is almost without question the best choice (all you flamethrower users are just stupid, lol). +Sp.ATK infernapes can leave Starmie/Cress with 50%+ chucks of damage even if they end up getting forced out.

The question is once again different for pokemon not using STAB. On a team where Salamence is more likely to find itself against Heatran and Bronzong, it'll want Fire Blast. On a team that calls on Salamence more to handle Breloom, Scizor or Lucario, Flamethrower is much more preferrable.

A physical Tyranitar will want Fire Blast but Boah is better off resting assured that flamethrower won't let its substitutes go to waste.

Depends. I think in general though the more risk of mis-predicting a pokemon has, the more power it will want. IE. A poke like Mix-Mence who can't really be sure whether or not it can handle what'll be coming in wants a move like Draco Meteor. A pokemon like Boah who can rest assured it'll sit snug behind a Substitute and probably get the chance to hit at whatever weakness the opponent has will probably be better off with moves like Ice Beam/Flamethrower.
 
This also brings up the question:

Does Hypnosis' 10% drop in accuracy make it unusable?

If you want some figures, there is a 16% chance that you will miss with two subsequent Hypnoses, which is more likely than a single Fire Blast miss. But the 60% of the time you do hit, it is effectively a KO on one of the opponent's pokemon.

LR.
 
Like previously mentioned, it depends on the pokemon you're using. If you're using a strong pokemon that can take a hit or two, you can use powerful/pretty accurate moves. If you're using a decent pokemon with overall stats, go with standard, very accurate moves. If you're tanking, use moves with special effects.

As far as I'm concerened, moves like Discharge and Lava Plume are rather very effective, even if they kinda rely on luck. Take something like a togekiss and rotom for example.
Suppose Togekiss has enough HP to survive a Thunderbolt and 2HKO you with Air Slash. Togekiss uses Air Slash, a move that can flinch you. You flinch, Togekiss attacks again, and you die. Suppose you don't flinch, you thunderbolt, Togekiss lives, and then Air Slashes you again for the KO.

Now suppose you run Discharge. Since the power drop isn't really significant, Togekiss is still 2HKOed by Discharge. So, Togekiss Air Slashes, you Discharge and paralyse. Next turn, all you do is discharge again and KO.

In all three states, the only way you can win this is using low powered moves with extra effects. That's why I prefer them. Off course, everything depends on the pokemon you're using. This is just my opinion.

Thanks for your time.
 
More powerful, less accurate moves on bulky critters and walls. Less powerful, more accurate moves on fragile sweepers who can't afford to miss.

There. Settled.
 
As people have already said, you can't just generalize stuff like this.

But as a general rule of thumb, always go with as much power as you need.

For example, if T-Tar can't 1hko Skarmory with Fire Blast anyway, and can 2hko with Flamethrower, there isn't really a point with using Fire Blast. But Salamence can 1hko Skarmory with a Fire Blast and it can't with Flamethrower, making Fire Blast the better option.

But then again, as Chou brought up, that extra power from overheat from infernape can end up doing some heavy damage to pokemon that you don't expect to do it to.
 
UltimoVenusaur said:
More powerful, less accurate moves on bulky critters and walls. Less powerful, more accurate moves on fragile sweepers who can't afford to miss.

There. Settled.
Click to expand...
Actually, I'd say you have it backwards. Walls prefer the consistent damage and generally higher PP that come from lower powered moves, whereas with fraile sweepers, often missing a OHKO is just as bad as a miss, and need to be packing the extra power.
 
Jiggy-Ninja said:
Actually, I'd say you have it backwards. Walls prefer the consistent damage and generally higher PP that come from lower powered moves, whereas with fraile sweepers, often missing a OHKO is just as bad as a miss, and need to be packing the extra power.
Click to expand...
Walls have other options other than attacking. PP isn't as much of an issue because they're not attacking all the time, especially if they have Wish/Protect, Recover or even ResTalking going for them. Defensively, a miss isn't as bad because they've got defenses to take a hit or two without panicking.

However, if Gengar misses on Focus Blast, it's done and you've got a full-strength critter that you have to deal with. If Gengar fails to OHKO with HP Fighting, you revenge kill, course correct your strategy and move on.
 
It really depends on the pokemon and the situation. The categories listed in this poll are too generalized. "Negative side effect" could mean alot of things.

For example, the Hyper Beam drawback makes those moves unusable, but Close Combat is one of the best moves in the game. Draco Meteor, too. Some negative drawbacks are inconsequential.

So out of the four, I had to pick low power/accurate/added effects. Lava Plume's burn wins me more games than Fire Blast's power does, and the miss chance is huge liability.
 
Hit-And-Run pokemons rather strong moves, even with the side effects/ kinda low accuracy (CC/Fire Blast)

Pokemon that stands longer usually prefer effects+low power, since the effects can help the stronger members to sweep or unallow the opponents sweep

Example: Restalk Tran uses Lava Plume, but Scarftran use Fire Blast

but it all depends on the pokemon and on the set you are using
 
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