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Final Latios Voters

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I didn't see that thread either.
However, I do see that my name isn't on the list of eligible voters (despite having made lower voting requirements). I guess that means that my paragraphs were not accepted?
=(

Now, off the top of my head I can think of two reasons as to why this may be:
a) I admitted to not using latios for most of the test, and only relatively little towards the end.
b) I mentioned some things that may have seemed a little to much like theorymon as to my criterion for voting.

I'd like an explanation as to why my paragraphs failed, so that I can improve next time.
For those interested, these were my paragraphs:
1) Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?


I did play fairly consistently from the start a little over two weeks before the tests end. At that time I quit playing with my rating account, as my team (which was my standard ladder team; it lacked lati@s) had to be retired due to failing to meet my expectations. My plan was to build a new team fairly quickly and begin playing again with my rating account, however, that did not occur, as I lacked the time to build a new team.
I did, however, use my testing account instead to play for the remainder of suspect. While my time spent playing decreased, it should be noted that I had played enough beforehand so that my standard deviation was still under 60 despite having not played in some time with my main account.
With my testing account I used the old team (to more limited success), and eventually I through together (as in, it is sub-par as I didn't put to much thought into it, I admit; otherwise I would have used my rating account) another team which did contain latios.
It should be noted I often watched games (particularly ReyScarface, who I regularly discussed some issues with), as well as of course noting the use of latios by my opponents, and how I dealt with it. My experience actually using it would then be somewhat limited, unfortunately.
However, I only ever made one modification to my standard team (metagross/ snorlax/ flygon/ magnezone/ gyarados/ mixmence, so it wasn't “triple dragon/triple steel”, although it was somewhat close) was giving my metagross a lum berry for a little while due to the fact that someone using a smeargle lead was on. Therefore, I could get an idea of how this standard ladder team faired.
I also had an old steel-less team, but I do not believe I played more then just a couple of games with it. I do not remember it fairing particularly poorly, interestingly enough (it did have cbtar and scarfmence as two checks, however).
I hope my limited experience actually using latios isn't an issue. I did have a lot of experience using standard ladder teams, and therefore I have a good idea of how these teams fair in the different metagame influenced by the inflated usage of latias.



2) Describe the criteria you will be using to cast your vote. For you, what aspects of a pokemon should be judged when determining its tiering between OU and Uber?



The criteria I will use will be largely based off of the definition provided for the offensive characteristic.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
Looking at the others briefly first:
Support:
It does not consistently make it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep. For a comparison:
Uxie can pull off the duel screen/memento with much better defenses and only 15 less base speed, and it is UU.
Defensive:
It is simply inferior defensively to latias, which passed. 80/80/110, while sturdy, isn't exactly a wall that can stall out most of the metagame. Fairly common weaknesses add to this.


Now back to offensive.
if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort”
I will here be assuming that “little effort” is a calm mind or dragon dance + life orb at most, although also heavily consider the commonly used specs set.


Looking at X-acts thread to get an idea of most teams (in standard, rather then suspect, ladder):
Scizor Salamence Heatran Gyarados Metagross (2 out of these 5 Pokemon are in a typical team)
Scizor is an excellent latios check. I don't have to discuss that here; it makes an excellent revenge killer with pursuit/priority and resists latios's stab.
Salamence, without setup, looses to the faster latios. Scarftran can provide a check for (non-DD) latios. Week to surf, so it wouldn't be a counter. Gyradados, without set up, looses to latios. Metagross can come in on latio's dragon attacks, and hit extremely hard in return. Infernape Tyranitar Blissey Latias Swampert Gengar (3 out of these 11 Pokemon are in a typical team) Infernape is countered by latios very effectively. Often forced to switch to physical sets. Tyranitar is always 2HKOed by specs surf and draco meteor. If it can come in safely, however, it will eliminate latios. Blissey can loose to the uncommon calm mind/recover/refresh/dragon pulse set. Otherwise blissey will of course do what she does best. Latias is a suspect. Shouldn't be considered. Swampert (standard) is OHKOed 92% of the time by specs draco meteor when taking stealth rock into account. Would fair better against other sets, but it generally looses. Gengar: Often runs scarf. This complicates matters, but allows gengar to be a check. Latios has better defenses (although is week to gengar's stab) and has equal base speed. Other then latios, this would be half of a typical team. Five of these 10 pokemon could be swept by latios. Only three can switch in. This may be compared with other top threats. Salamence is something none of these most used can counter (although they may be able to come in on predicted attacks, and many are checks). I'm not quite sure yet how I will approach this, as I'm still actually unsure of how I will vote. I'm planning on looking further at the usage statistics, and trying to find out what sort of portions of teams can be swept (and whether it is a significant portion) by latios compared to OU's top threats. I would also like to take note of differences in the latios test ladder compared to the standard ladder usage statistics.

EDIT:
I'm not deeply disturbed at all by the fact I can't vote, as I didn't feel strongly either way (and now I don't have to think about anything either), and my vote wouldn't matter anyway. I just would like to no for future reference (maybe I should have read the "how to be a responsible suspect voter" thread more thoroughly?).
 
For posterity, this was my paragraph (really more of an essay) for my Latios vote.

Over the entire period of the Suspect Test, I laddered very extensively on the Suspect Ladder, using Latios in virtually every battle. Latios and Latias are similar enough that in most cases, my Standard and Suspect teams were virtually interchangable, which a few differences. Early in the testing process, I tried building a team around Dual Screen/Memento Latios, with some success. However, I was generally unimpressed with this strategy, finding it far from "broken". As with Latias, I felt that other Pokemon such as Uxie and Bronzong are more effective in utilizing this strategy. Through most of the test, I used a Calm Mind set for Latios with Life Orb, the same set I prefer for Latias. During this period of the test process I was uncertain as to what to think about Latios; he seemed to me to be inferior to Latias because of his diminished survivability and his continued inability to deal with common threats such as Scizor and Tyranitar. However, in the last week or so of the testing period I switched over to using Choice Specs Latios, and this set convinced me of the value of using Latios over Latias. With Choice Specs, Latios finally does enough damage to Tyranitar, Scizor and Metagross to make it possible to do massive damage to the opposing team using only two moves (Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and Surf).

My criteria for voting any Suspect Uber is to evaluate how well it functions in three aspects, as delineated in our official definition of "Uber", found in the "Portrait of an Uber" thread in Policy Review. I understand the Offensive Characteristic to mean that a Pokemon is Uber is it can sweep with relative ease without much (2 or more turns of) setup. I understand "relative ease" to mean "without a significant likelihood of being stopped by reasonable means". For example, Lucario does not meet this characteristic despite being able to sweep with only one turn of setup, because there are several Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Lucario that cannot be OHKOed with Extremespeed, such as Salamence, Gyarados, and Zapdos. All of these are good Pokemon is their own right, they are not gimmicks. By this definition, I believe that Latios meets the Offensive Characteristic; while utilizing Choice Specs, Latios can sweep without any setup and all, using a combination of Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse and Surf. Surf 2HKOs all of the relevant Steels easily, and Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse destroys virtually anything else that is not Blissey or Empoleon. To stop Choice Specs Latios reliably, a player is almost forced to use Blissey or Empoleon; alternately, you are limited to revenge killing Latios with Pursuit or priority. These are rather extreme measures to stop a single Pokemon, so Latios does indeed "sweep with relative ease with fewer than two turns of setup".

I understand the defensive characteristic to mean that a Pokemon is Uber if it is far too difficult to kill by reasonable means; many teams will be hard pressed to kill this Pokemon even if the player makes significant sacrifices to do so. Cresselia fails to meet this characteristic, for example, because although it is almost impossible to OHKO, it has no reliable recovery and is weak to Pursuit; it can be killed very easily and without much effort by common Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Scizor and Heracross. By this definition, Latios fails to meet the Defensive Characteristic, as even the bulkiest Latios sets would still not be able to survive high-powered supereffective attacks such as a CB Scizor U-Turn or a CB Tyranitar Crunch. In fact, Latios is significantly less defensive than his (presently) OU sister, Latias.

I understand the Support Characteristic to mean a Pokemon that can support other Pokemon so well that they can sweep easily (or by extension stall easily) through the opponent's team. Gliscor is not Uber, for example, because although it is very hard to kill and stop from Baton Passing +2 Atk and +2 Spe, it can be killed with Water attacks or repeated Ice attacks, Taunted by a faster Pokemon, or (p)hazed if it lacks Taunt. Latios has only one notable use as a supporting Pokemon: his ability to set up dual screens, coupled with Memento. While he would tie with Latias as the fastest user of dual screens in OU, he dies even more easily than Latias in this role, and is capable of offering little else to the team if this strategy fails. He shares the problem with Latias that while he benefits most from Reflect (which protects him against Tyranitar/Scizor/Metagross), most Baton Passers benefit most from Light Screen (such as Gliscor and Scizor). As a result, while this is the characteristic that I am the least certain of, I believe that Latios fails to meet the Support Characteristic.

This is the reasoning behind my voting for Suspect. As you might imagine, I intend to vote Latios as Uber, based on the Offensive Characteristic. Using the Specs set, Latios is simply too powerful to be stopped without a dedicated revenge killer, Blissey, or Empoleon, and even Empoleon is helpless before the equally common Calm Mind/Life Orb set. As such, he is decidely unbalancing to competitively play, and should be banned from standard.
 
Is this a trend then? I'll post mine as well for posterity.

1) Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?


I feel I played quite regularly throughout the testing period. I didn't have an opportunity to play right at the start of the test, and I only started playing on suspect four or five days into the testing period. At first, I used my standard OU team on the suspect ladder. This was really for two reasons: to get some foundation experience against Latios and see what sets it commonly ran, and to get an idea of how a pretty good standard OU team fared against it.

Quite quickly the popular sets became apparent: Choice Specs (Draco Meteor/Surf/Thunderbolt/Trick), Memento (Reflect/Light Screen/Draco Meteor/Memento), Dragon Dance (Dragon Dance/Outrage/Earthquake/Draco Meteor), and offensive CM (Calm Mind/Dragon Pulse/Surf/Recover). Once I got a basic grounding of how Latios worked, I started making teams around it, trying to use all its sets to their maximum.

With a team built around taking advantage of the incredible Sub Charge Beam Rotom weakness so many teams on suspect had, I quickly got to voting eligibility in the first three or four days of me seriously laddering. I tried out all four of these Latios sets quite extensively, but I found the Specs set easily the most efficient out of them, and settled on using it on my team. After having reached lower requirements, I tried to play regularly to decrease my deviation and to gain further experience with Latios. Maybe someone would come up with a new set now that Latios had been around for a while. I think I played an average of three games a day, everyday, since I reached voting requirements.

In the last week of the testing period I was nearing upper requirements, having a rating of 1750 and a deviation of 55.5 at one point. However, I was unable to play much in the last five days of the suspect test since my school work was really piling on. Nevertheless, I feel I played very consistently throughout the rest of the month, and have a considerable amount of experience with Latios now.


2) Describe the criteria you will be using to cast your vote. For you, what aspects of a pokemon should be judged when determining its tiering between OU and Uber?


Having used Latios' most common sets quite extensively, I have to say I found all but one of them able to be dealt with. I don't feel Memento Latios is uber under the support clause - while the screen support it provides is greatly effective in a team built around it, many other Pokemon can carry out the same task as, if not more, effectively. Speed is not the biggest concern on a Pokemon whose primary purpose is to take hits while setting up support - high defenses are. Speed is the only department in which a Memento Latios can be considered superior to a similar Uxie, who itself has a very useable base 95 Speed. The Dragon Dancer set is only viable because of its surprise value, as otherwise, there is very little reason to not run Salamence instead of it. The CM sweeper is actually done better by Latias, as with her superior defenses, she can actually weather weak attacks and in the end accumulate more CMs than her twin.

It is the Specs Latios set that I feel to be too much for OU. This was one of the most common Pokemon on suspect - the Latios set that I used and had used against me. People realised early on in the test how the sheer power of a Specs Draco Meteor could blast through a team. The real difficulty when facing this set is how hard it is to prepare for. There are only a handful of Pokemon on a team that can survive a Draco Meteor, and even fewer can outspeed Latios or survive a second. What makes the set so hard to deal with is that you are required to have one of these Pokemon on your team or pack a revenge killer with Pursuit, as otherwise Latios will continue to come in over and over to Meteor your Pokemon away one at a time. While this is quite heavily centralizing, that is the not the main point here. The point is that even with these Pokemon on your team, Specs Latios can still pose a big threat. I'll expand on why this is so.

For the first category, these are Latios' 'safe switchins', Pokemon such as Bronzong, Blissey, Empoleon, and Cresselia. They can take two Surfs or Draco Meteors comfortably and can so threaten Latios out. The problem is, only Blissey has reliable recovery, meaning the others will not be able to do this repeatedly. Therein lies the other problem. Latias has a plethora of resists to switch in on - resistances to Fire, Grass, Water, and Electric with a base 110 SpD to switch in on them, as well as passable Defense and resistance to Fighting and immunity to Ground. An immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, along with SR neutrality, only helps it. The ease with which it can switch in means it can come in and hit its counters over and over again and weaken them significantly over the course of the battle.

In this list, all but Empoleon hate being Tricked a Choice Specs, and Trick is a standard move on specs Latios, meaning none of them can switch in on it without fear. And Empoleon will not be able to take Specs Thunderbolts, and if the Latios turns out to be a CM Latios instead, Empoleon is once again in big trouble, as its Ice Beams will fail to leave a mark after Latios has a CM under its belt. In short, Latios has no safe switch in. While this is not grounds on which it can be declared uber, when Latios' potential to repeatedly switch in and damage its checks again and again is considered, I feel it holds a lot more weight. Latios continued to be an excellent sweeper on suspect despite the metagame revolving around it. People used Specs Latios on their team not only to gain more experience with it, but because it was one of the best choices availavle. It was not a matter of the opposing teams being ill-prepared to deal with it. Rather, it was Latios being an incredibly difficult Pokemon for them to do so.

Because it can just switch out of anything else and easily come in later on in the game, Pursuit users are the other method of dealing with Latios. No Pursuit user can switch in directly into specs Latios:

Timid Surf vs 252 HP Scizor: 54.4 - 64.2%
- Guaranteed 2HKO.
Timid Surf vs 252 HP Tyranitar: 51.5 - 60.9%
- Guaranteed 2HKO.

If they choose to run more SpD than this, they will fail to KO Latios with their respective Pursuits if it stays in:

252HP/216SpD Careful CB Tyranitar Pursuit vs Latios (non-switching): 71.8 - 84.4%
This Tyranitar will survive 2 Latios Surfs, but then will not guarantee the kill on it.

Weavile is the other Pursuiter in OU, and it has many other problems holding it back, namely SR weakness and complete susceptibility to Scizor, meaning the only reason it would be run would be to take down Latios. It cannot afford to switch into any attacks at all, so the only way it can kill Latios is if it comes in on the revenge kill. That means that Latios has already killed one of your Pokemon, and so its job is complete. If a Pokemon has no reliable switch ins whatsoever, and the only way it can be taken out is to let a Pokemon die and revenge kill it, I feel it should be considered uber under the Offensive Clause.

I consider Latios to also be uber under the Support Clause. Not the Memento set, which is great at supporting in its own right, but actually the Specs set once again. Because of its lack of switchins and reliable answers, Specs Latios is nigh on guaranteed to do big damage to an opposing team member every time the Draco Meteor button is pressed. This creates gaping holes in the opponent's defenses which are incredibly easy to exploit with other Pokemon. Latios' wallbreaking power consistently sets up a situation that makes it considerably easier for other Pokemon to sweep. That is the very definition of uber under Support, and Latios fits it perfectly.
 
Ha ha, well, I guess it is a trend, although mine is probably going to be the only one posted that convinced Jumpman I don't deserve to vote ;).
 
Hehe, i shall join to this!:

Part 1:

Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?

I tried to be very organized. I started the first weeks of the test by testing Latios on my teams, checking what it could do, what pokemon walled me with ease, what revenge killed me, and what i could kill.
Around the 3rd week of the test, i started laddering seriously, using several standard teams to learn what Latios did AGAINST me, rather than FOR me.
The last days of the test, after i fulfilled the voting requirements, i tried to watch battles of the Suspect Ladder. I carefully analyzed what scenarios were common, which ones uncommon, and what were the best moves to use in "x" situation.


Part 2:

Offensive Characteristic: One of the main reasons i think Latios is Uber not just because of the power it packs, the speed Latios has is very good too, outspeeding a lot of potential threats for a team, and having a very diverse movepool, it can advance with ease through teams. The Specs Latios is very powerful, hitting a lot of "Counters" with a lot of power, and it can destroy the "common wall" named Blissey by Tricking his Specs. Scarf Latios is not seen too much, but it still has a lot of advantages. It can reach a massive speed of 525, making the life for set-up pokemon like DD Mence, DD Kingdra, AgiliGross and other pokemon eve harder, since those rely on outspeeding for breaking through teams, thanks to their massive power. While other pokemon such as Gengar can also do this, Latios packs both great neutral coverage and the bombshell move Draco Meteor to make both revenge killing and lategame sweeping a snap.
The choiced versions of this very versatile pokemon are not everything it can pack to deal with other pokemon. The Life Orb variant of Latios exchanges power for a lot of versatility, being able to hit a lot of things for super effective damage, and others with a 280 Base Power move (factoring Life Orb). From my experience, HP Fire Latios is unusual, but in my opinion, is very usable and good, powering through Latios's best counters. On the other side of the spectrum, DD Latios is arguably the less seen Latios set, but it shouldn't be underestimated. Latios has a very decent Base 90 Attack, it could be very powerful against unprepared teams.
I already explained everything related to Latios' massive power and sets. But one of the most important reasons I'm voting Uber is the unpredictability of this magnificent Pokemon. It can run 2 different Spectrums, eliminate the counters by tricking, finish off the always common Blissey with the DD Set, or making its way through other pokemon with his tremendous special attack. Latios can run so many different sets that you will need to know it before making a risky move against him, bringing the wrong pokemon can cost you games or in a lesser extent, a lot of your pokemon.

Defensive Characteristic:
Latios is a Pokemon that while being very powerful and an awesome sweeper, his Defense is his biggest weak point and being weak to Pursuit really makes Latios' ability to sweep lower. The thing here is that there are very few pursuiters, the only ones i saw during the test were CB Scizor, CB T-tar and CB Metagross. Scizor gets OHKOd by HP Fire, Metagross is 2HKOd by the same, that just leaves us with Tyranitar who can be called Latios "Nemesis" but heres another thing. Not every team will be running a Tyranitar or a Pursuiter, and even if they carry Tyranitar, it just makes the life of SD Lucario or Scizor a lot easier, getting a free SD after Latios is down. This could arguably listed under the support characteristic, but it's ridiculously difficult to take care of both Latios and the things that can set up alongside it.
Latios has a good Special Defense, which, boosted by Calm Mind, can give problems for special attackers, especially since with its amazingly quick speed it can recover damage in a blink and even recover from status with Refresh.
Latios is not a Pokemon meant to be defensive, i think Latios is a Pokemon made for Offense, or in some cases Support, which I'll explain next.

Support Characteristic: Latios, while being a very offensive Pokemon, it can be an awesome supporter for the rest of a team, or for Baton Pass chains.
Latios is one of like 5 pokemon that learn the combo of Dual Screen + Memento, while the only ones with a competitive value would be Uxie and Gardevoir. In addition to that, Latios is incredibly fast and strong draco meteor smashes taunters even without a large satk investment, making it much more difficult to stop latios from setting up than stopping conventional mementoers.
Memento + DS was very feared on the test, simply because after that, its required a lot of strategy, a dedicated counter team, and luck to stop.

I will be voting latios Uber.

Edit: Paramylodon, some other users didnt get accepted, i know a few ones =/
 
OK, well here we go:

Well, I’m not very good at doing paragraphs so I’ll start out by saying that I’m DragonLord, and that I played consistently throughout the month, whenever I could. I used the suspect, Latios, on every one of my teams, which I used basically every set available to it. Those sets included all the ones on RaikouLover’s discussion thread on the Lati@s, and even used the dual screen memento set to minimum success. The only characteristics that I would consider Latios to be tested in would be the Offensive Characteristic, and maybe the Support Characteristic because, although the memento set was an utter failure to me, it did provide promise to help ease a Pokémon’s sweep. The Defensive Characteristic, should not be utilized because something with 80/80/110 defenses shouldn’t be walling much of the metagame. With all this being said, I believe that I will vote OU, because with certain aspects, there are too many checks, like Scizor, Tyranitar, blissey, and even latias, for it to be able to easily sweep through an entire team. Further more, I have never been swept by latios, nor have I swept with latios. Alone Latios is a great Pokémon, and will hopefully help to make the metagame less stall orientated, and without Soul Dew it is defiantly OverUsed. Thank you for allowing me to vote.
Wow, I just can't get over how long all yours are. I must have really good grammar or something ^_^
 
Since everyone is posting, I might as well do so myself, if that's ok...

1) Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?

While I did not battle on the Suspect Ladder throughout the whole testing period, I certainly did not battle only at the end of the month either. I began battling on the ladder about halfway through the test while gathering enough information on the suspect within the specified period. I made sure to test the suspect myself while on the ladder, focusing more on the most effective sets while also testing out some ideas of my own. I also made sure to observe how the suspect was used on my opponent's side so I was able to gather as much information as possible.


2) Describe the criteria you will be using to cast your vote. For you, what aspects of a pokemon should be judged when determining its tiering between OU and Uber?

For the voting of the suspect, I intend to follow the established characteristics of an Uber posted in the "Portrait of an Uber" thread in the Policy Review.

I understand the offensive characteristic of an Uber to describe a Pokémon that can potentially sweep through a team with 2 or less turns of setup while at the same time being difficult to counter through conventional means (as in by using standard OU Pokémon). Latios does not meet the offensive characteristic of an uber. While Latios can pose as a devastating threat with its STAB Draco Meteor (while running a Choice Specs), Dragon is walled by the most abundant type in the current metagame: Steel. Scizor is an extremely common example of a Pokémon that can switch into Latios (although its impossible for it to switch into a full powered Choice Specs Draco Meteor) and be able to eliminate it as a threat through the use of Pursuit; Scizor is also not required to run a specialized move to eliminate Latios as a threat since most Choice Band Scizor run Pursuit or Bullet Punch to hit Latios on its weaker Defense stat. While it is true that Latios is more effectively handled through offensive means, Latios also remains walled by the most effective Special wall of the game: Blissey. Although Latios can use Trick to eliminate Blissey as a threat, it severely limits Latios's ability to sweep through a team as a result.

I understand the defensive characteristic of an Uber to describe a Pokémon that can wall or stall out a significant portion of the metagame by switching in to a Pokémon with little risk to itself. Latios does not meet the defensive characteristic of an uber. Latios's meager defenses of 80/80/110 do not allow it to wall a significant portion of the metagame, whereas Skarmory and Blissey, which are both recognized to be dedicated walls, need to invest heavily in their specialized area of defense to be able to handle threats from their respective defensive stat. If Skarmory and Blissey have overall better defensive stats than Latios and do not meet the defensive characteristic of an Uber, then Latios, by the transitive property, does not meet the defensive characteristic either. On the other hand, Latias is more effective in serving as a wall than Latios with higher overall defenses of 80/90/130.

I understand the support characteristic of an Uber to describe a Pokémon who is able to significantly outclass other Pokémon in the same "support field". Latios does not meet the support characteristic of an uber. In contrast to Latias, the only support option that Latios can outperform Latias in is in the use of Memento, as Latias can use support options more effectively through a greater variety of support moves and the same higher overall defenses described in the previous paragraph. In terms of the move Memento, Latios does not outclass other users of the same move, such as Uxie. While Latios may have higher Speed than Uxie, both Pokémon remain vulnerable to Taunt from a faster Azelf or Aerodactyl; if Memento was to be used along with Light Screen and Reflect (which is often the case), Uxie outperforms Latios in this aspect for having higher defenses, and therefore, more of an opportunity to effectively utilize this strategy.
 
Okay, I have read most of the above voting reasonings through and do not see anything that they have on mine. In fact, I believe that my reasoning was better in many respects but I was rejected. I have yet to receive a response as to why I was denied the right to vote so hopefully you guys could give me some insight:

1) Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?


For the most part, I played consistently throughout the suspect testing month. I usually got in at least 5 battles a day on various accounts with the exception of the third week when I had limited Internet access. Subjecting myself to the suspect ladder nearly every day for the duration of the test allowed me to see how Latios performed in the OU metagame. My constant testing enabled me to observe how his role evolved and the resulting adaptations of his counters.

I both used the suspect and observed it during the testing period. Early on and again towards the end, I used a Timid Choice Specs set. With about a week to go, I found myself using a mixed Life Orb Dragon Dancer and a Life Orb Calm Mind set (which seemed to be the most effective but I’ll save evaluating their effectiveness for question #2). In addition, I used probably 4 different teams through the month, featuring around 20 different Pokemon. Because of this, I was able to determine what worked, what didn’t, and what had to adapt to Latios’ presence.

I must commend the suspect testing staff on their ability to influence ladderers to use the suspect during the last two tests. Even for those who chose not to use the suspect, they were bound to see the suspect in at least every other battle, forcing them to adapt. With the stress put on testing every option that the suspect has available, I am confident that these two Pokemon won’t end up like Deoxys-E with us realizing they they should have uber status after months of usage have passed, when a new moveset springs to life.



2) Describe the criteria you will be using to cast your vote. For you, what aspects of a pokemon should be judged when determining its tiering between OU and Uber?


I feel that the main criteria that should be used when determining a Pokemon’s tier are its offensive, defensive, and support capabilities. It is fairly evident that a Pokemon’s power is related to all three of these. This can be seen in the Smogondex, with nearly every set on every Pokemon focusing mainly on one of these roles. A Pokemon is uber when, under normal battle conditions, a Pokemon can sweep, wall and stall, or often allow another Pokemon to sweep with ease against a major chunk of the metagame with little effort.

The offensive and defensive characteristics are fairly straightforward so I’d like to concentrate on the support characteristic. When most people choose a support Pokemon, it’s designed to last. Latios can’t take hits as well as his sister and since she has the same support options and then some (with the exception of Memento) with higher defenses, we would’ve likely seen her voted uber. Even with Recover and Roost, Latios will not stay around as long as his sister and is the inferior support option in the “staying power” respect. Regardless, Latios’ support capabilities were put to the test. The dual screen set with Memento became the best option, allowing users to safely bring in their sweeper on a Pokemon with -2 in both attacking stats and both screens in play. After this, it was a matter of Rock Polishing, Swords Dancing, Taunting (if necessary), and passing to a recipient (usually Life Orb Metagross). While a Pokemon with dual screens and +2 in Spd and Att would make a formidable opponent, it is far from foolproof. To start off against Latios, many Pokemon render it nearly useless. Scizor can do massive amounts of damage with STAB Technician Bullet Punch and Technician Pursuit. An Ice Shard from the likes of Mamoswine or a Weavile Night Slash/Ice Punch will do massive amounts of damage. There are many more counters if Latios isn’t running the screens necessary to immediately reduce the damage that it will take. When Latios first comes into play, there are a few main options. Fast Taunters prevent Latios from using anything but the likely one Dragon attack that he has. Sleep attacks can put him out of commission if he isn’t using a Lum Berry. Encore has found its place in the UU metagame, it could also be used to put an immediate stop to a dual screen Latios. While Latios is still in play or even once Gliscor has been switched in, Brick Break will leave the opponent with a couple of wasted turns. Swampert can break the screens and down Gliscor with a 4x effective Ice attack or a STAB Water attack if you fear Yache berry. To make it even easier, the opponent will likely Taunt you on the turn you break their screens, for fear of Roar. This allows you the extra turn needed to score the KO on the next turn. Even if they do somehow manage to pass speed AND attack, they’re going to be facing a STAB EQ without any screens to soften the blows and the LO BP recipient isn’t going to last much longer after that. Other suitable Brick Breakers include Salamence, Dragonite, Rhyperior, Gliscor, Machamp, Weavile (again!), and why not even Gengar or Snorlax? Even lacking any of those options, a surprise Roarer that Gliscor will BP against to avoid damage (think Vaporeon and maybe Zapdos) will be able to roar out the sweeper as it receives the BP. Finally, brute force can work as well. Rain Dance teams simply don’t even care about this set up and sweep every portion of it with ease. Pokemon such as Mamoswine can force Gliscor to BP early with Blizzard and upon predicting the BP, EQ the sweeper as it switches in. Just making sure you hit the sweeper as it comes in is often good enough. If you use some crafty switching after that, you can often force him to KO himself through Life Orb recoil and lose maybe only one Pokemon in the process. Those are the most prominent options and they are plenty enough.

The offensive capabilities weren’t overwhelming. Specs sets are easily stopped by common special walls such as Blissey and Cresselia. Steel types are extremely common and are more than capable of coming in and resisting whatever Dragon type attacks that Latios has to throw at them. As I said in my first general counters to Latios in the support capability paragraph, there are many Pokemon who can simply pick Latios off after predicting its attack and switching in (Scizor, Tyranitar, Metagross, other Pursuit users with decent defenses). When it comes to Calm Minding sets, those are a bit tougher to stop. However, status attacks usually do them in (TWave and Toxic mainly) and they are in constant fear of STAB Bullet Punch from Scizor, Extremespeed from Lucario, Scarfed SE attacks, and Ice Shard, to name a few. On the physical side, Latios is mainly a weaker version of Salamence, who himself is easily handled. His wide range of counters (most already mentioned in my voting submission) almost all apply to Latios.

Finally the defensive characteristic could likely be compared to that Latias as I did for the support characteristic. Latias is much more bulky and she did not prove to be uber on the defensive side of things. Latios in no way would be able to outdo Latias in the defense department. Again, he is in constant fear of STAB priority attacks and Pursuit. There are many better options out there with which to take hits. Latios is in no way even close to being uber due to its defenses.

Since Latios clearly does not meet any of the characteristics of an uber Pokemon, it will likely not be voted uber. I’ve seen it in play, I’ve adapted to how it operates, I’ve tried it out for myself, and I’m not that impressed. Latios has more than his fair share of counters and is not able to, under normal battle conditions, sweep, wall and stall, or often allow another Pokemon to sweep with ease against a major chunk of the metagame with little effort.
 
yeah I wasn't accepted either, probably 'cause my paragraphs sucked (I probably should've talked about the other two characteristics)
 
>_>

1) Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?

I battled for the most all of the month, though due to time constraints (mostly schoolwork) I was unable to play more than a few battles each day. I forced myself to make time during the last two weeks, in which I'd have time for more than just ten or so battles each day. Though I feel that I did do the majority of my battles during the last two weeks, I did make a consistent effort to play during the entire test period, and I did obersve the changes that others noted when I was incapable. I read most of these posts during school hours.

In regards to using the actual suspect, I feel I was pretty balanced. I believe that in order to truly have a grasp on suspect testing you should use teams involving the suspect and teams lacking it. I used both my standard OU team (lacking Latios) and a suspect variation (with Latios). I made variations to both teams as the suspect period went on, trying to use all of the Latios sets, in addition to "more gimmicky" and underused sets. I would also observe suspect battles between more skilled members of the community and see how their teams were designed and how they used Latios (and how they countered it).





2) Describe the criteria you will be using to cast your vote. For you, what aspects of a pokemon should be judged when determining its tiering between OU and Uber?

My votes will be based on how easily a Pokemon can sweep, wall/tank and support the rest of the team and/or how easily it can set up a sweep for another teammate. I also base my vote on my predictions for how badly the suspect will overcentralize the metagame. I understand that a certain degree of overcentralization is to be expected from suspect (obviously), but if I believe the metagame will remain overcentralized if said suspect becomes OU, moving it to a lower tier isn't ideal.

Perhaps the biggest factor for me is how reliable the suspect's counters are. For example, I found countering Shaymin-S to be very unreliable because both of its STAB moves had a 60% chance of its side effect activating, which could easily screw over even the most dedicated walls (Blissey). If I feel that Specs Draco Meteor from Latios is too powerful for its usual counters (often revenge killers as Blissey can be tricked with simple prediction), it should be Uber.



Sorry if this was way too long, I didn't think summarizing my feelings into a simple "paragraph" would be acceptable, and I didn't know what you were exactly looking for.


I'm assuming that my criteria was what killed me, which is too bad, because I feel I adhere to what most all of the eligible voters used (that I read). I'm pretty pissed, since I spent forever getting my rank that high, but I suppose I'm whining, but I'm still pretty sad =/


I'm glad to see that the majority of voters are going Uber, I felt Latios was a bad thing for the metagame. At least I gained some valuable insight during the test. Maybe next time, eh? :[


Edit - I see what was meant to be said for the criteria, I thought we had to explain how we think in general, not in regards to the suspect. Damn.
 
lol you guys are unbelievable

first, i never gave anyone blessing to post their paragraphs in this thread. i explicitly stated in the voting thread that you all saw that i was going to post submissions anonymously to respect the feelings of those whose submissions i did not accept.

so much for that, i guess. second, if I wanted to I could have made a forum where the Moderate Posts radio button is set to "yes" so that we can allow all posts to be viewed after voting is done. i didn't want to do this, even though the idea has been brought up before and i have considered it. but okay, since you guys felt it was ok to publicly post your private messages, you're kind of inviting my critiques of not only your words but you personally, since you seem to want to tie yourselves to paragraphs i stated I was going to post anonymously.

oh and feel free to take them personally because i definitely, definitely filtered votes based on how much i liked people
 
I didn't see that thread either.
However, I do see that my name isn't on the list of eligible voters (despite having made lower voting requirements). I guess that means that my paragraphs were not accepted?
=(

Now, off the top of my head I can think of two reasons as to why this may be:
a) I admitted to not using latios for most of the test, and only relatively little towards the end.
b) I mentioned some things that may have seemed a little to much like theorymon as to my criterion for voting.

I'd like an explanation as to why my paragraphs failed, so that I can improve next time.
For those interested, these were my paragraphs:


EDIT:
I'm not deeply disturbed at all by the fact I can't vote, as I didn't feel strongly either way (and now I don't have to think about anything either), and my vote wouldn't matter anyway. I just would like to no for future reference (maybe I should have read the "how to be a responsible suspect voter" thread more thoroughly?).



It should be noted I often watched games (particularly ReyScarface, who I regularly discussed some issues with), as well as of course noting the use of latios by my opponents, and how I dealt with it. My experience actually using it would then be somewhat limited, unfortunately.

"somewhat limited"? more like zero. you did not once even use Latios. not once. and you know it. i even checked to see if you had any alts, even though you posted on the first page that only "paramylodon" qualified for anything. don't lie to me or try to sugarcoat your experience. did you not expect me to have the suspect ladder stats open to reference when i'm reading submissions? if so, that was not a smart assumption.

and if you think watching battles has any bearing at all on being permitted to vote with the system we have set up, you are mistaken.

I'm not quite sure yet how I will approach this, as I'm still actually unsure of how I will vote. I'm planning on looking further at the usage statistics, and trying to find out what sort of portions of teams can be swept (and whether it is a significant portion) by latios compared to OU's top threats. I would also like to take note of differences in the latios test ladder compared to the standard ladder usage statistics.

you could not more plainly be indicating to me that not only are you unsure about which way you are going to vote, but that you are actually prepared to consult usage statistics to decide your vote instead of your own experiences. that is a big no-no.

oh, for our more observant readers, it should be pretty obvious now that usage of the suspect has something to do with how much stock i or aeolus are willing to put into your paragraphs. that should be common sense, though.
 
For posterity, this was my paragraph (really more of an essay) for my Latios vote.

Over the entire period of the Suspect Test, I laddered very extensively on the Suspect Ladder, using Latios in virtually every battle. Latios and Latias are similar enough that in most cases, my Standard and Suspect teams were virtually interchangable, which a few differences. Early in the testing process, I tried building a team around Dual Screen/Memento Latios, with some success. However, I was generally unimpressed with this strategy, finding it far from "broken". As with Latias, I felt that other Pokemon such as Uxie and Bronzong are more effective in utilizing this strategy. Through most of the test, I used a Calm Mind set for Latios with Life Orb, the same set I prefer for Latias. During this period of the test process I was uncertain as to what to think about Latios; he seemed to me to be inferior to Latias because of his diminished survivability and his continued inability to deal with common threats such as Scizor and Tyranitar. However, in the last week or so of the testing period I switched over to using Choice Specs Latios, and this set convinced me of the value of using Latios over Latias. With Choice Specs, Latios finally does enough damage to Tyranitar, Scizor and Metagross to make it possible to do massive damage to the opposing team using only two moves (Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse and Surf).

My criteria for voting any Suspect Uber is to evaluate how well it functions in three aspects, as delineated in our official definition of "Uber", found in the "Portrait of an Uber" thread in Policy Review. I understand the Offensive Characteristic to mean that a Pokemon is Uber is it can sweep with relative ease without much (2 or more turns of) setup. I understand "relative ease" to mean "without a significant likelihood of being stopped by reasonable means". For example, Lucario does not meet this characteristic despite being able to sweep with only one turn of setup, because there are several Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Lucario that cannot be OHKOed with Extremespeed, such as Salamence, Gyarados, and Zapdos. All of these are good Pokemon is their own right, they are not gimmicks. By this definition, I believe that Latios meets the Offensive Characteristic; while utilizing Choice Specs, Latios can sweep without any setup and all, using a combination of Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse and Surf. Surf 2HKOs all of the relevant Steels easily, and Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse destroys virtually anything else that is not Blissey or Empoleon. To stop Choice Specs Latios reliably, a player is almost forced to use Blissey or Empoleon; alternately, you are limited to revenge killing Latios with Pursuit or priority. These are rather extreme measures to stop a single Pokemon, so Latios does indeed "sweep with relative ease with fewer than two turns of setup".

I understand the defensive characteristic to mean that a Pokemon is Uber if it is far too difficult to kill by reasonable means; many teams will be hard pressed to kill this Pokemon even if the player makes significant sacrifices to do so. Cresselia fails to meet this characteristic, for example, because although it is almost impossible to OHKO, it has no reliable recovery and is weak to Pursuit; it can be killed very easily and without much effort by common Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Scizor and Heracross. By this definition, Latios fails to meet the Defensive Characteristic, as even the bulkiest Latios sets would still not be able to survive high-powered supereffective attacks such as a CB Scizor U-Turn or a CB Tyranitar Crunch. In fact, Latios is significantly less defensive than his (presently) OU sister, Latias.

I understand the Support Characteristic to mean a Pokemon that can support other Pokemon so well that they can sweep easily (or by extension stall easily) through the opponent's team. Gliscor is not Uber, for example, because although it is very hard to kill and stop from Baton Passing +2 Atk and +2 Spe, it can be killed with Water attacks or repeated Ice attacks, Taunted by a faster Pokemon, or (p)hazed if it lacks Taunt. Latios has only one notable use as a supporting Pokemon: his ability to set up dual screens, coupled with Memento. While he would tie with Latias as the fastest user of dual screens in OU, he dies even more easily than Latias in this role, and is capable of offering little else to the team if this strategy fails. He shares the problem with Latias that while he benefits most from Reflect (which protects him against Tyranitar/Scizor/Metagross), most Baton Passers benefit most from Light Screen (such as Gliscor and Scizor). As a result, while this is the characteristic that I am the least certain of, I believe that Latios fails to meet the Support Characteristic.

This is the reasoning behind my voting for Suspect. As you might imagine, I intend to vote Latios as Uber, based on the Offensive Characteristic. Using the Specs set, Latios is simply too powerful to be stopped without a dedicated revenge killer, Blissey, or Empoleon, and even Empoleon is helpless before the equally common Calm Mind/Life Orb set. As such, he is decidely unbalancing to competitively play, and should be banned from standard.

sorry man, you posted about five hours ago and several people already saw and analyzed your post. like i said, the cat's out of the bag in that regard, no use in deleting your post.

besides, you shouldn't be too worried anyway, as i accepted your submission after all.

anyway, yours was about the most borderline submission i got. it was very well written, of course, and you explained everything extremely well, but what confused me was where you said:

To stop Choice Specs Latios reliably, a player is almost forced to use Blissey or Empoleon; alternately, you are limited to revenge killing Latios with Pursuit or priority. These are rather extreme measures to stop a single Pokemon, so Latios does indeed "sweep with relative ease with fewer than two turns of setup".

i really found it hard to agree with this. from what I observed, i in fact do not think it's very extreme to have to use Blissey or priority or Pursuit to stop Specs Latios. not in the context of actually stopping it from "sweeping", which i realize is a catch-all term for competitive dominance. However, if you're only citing the Specs set as capable of sweeping, you must at least acknowledge the fact that Latios has to use Surf almost every time if it does not want to be revenge killed by pursuit, which stops it from sweeping no matter how powerful it is.

but hey, remember, i accepted your vote anyway. considering how i felt you interpreted "sweeping", how well you explained yourself, and, of course, the Hidden Requirement.
 
"somewhat limited"? more like zero. you did not once even use Latios. not once. and you know it. i even checked to see if you had any alts, even though you posted on the first page that only "paramylodon" qualified for anything. don't lie to me or try to sugarcoat your experience. did you not expect me to have the suspect ladder stats open to reference when i'm reading submissions? if so, that was not a smart assumption.

and if you think watching battles has any bearing at all on being permitted to vote with the system we have set up, you are mistaken.

Just as a note, this is what I originally typed in response to your statement:
I used latios some in the last few days under an alt (perhaps it was after the voting period ended? I thought I played a couple of games, but this may have been just before the ladder was taken down for all I remember).
Thinking back, I know I made a team, but
heatran-dugtrio-rotom-gengar-
swampert-tyranitar-flygon-metagross-gyarados-
You're right, I didn't gain experience in that context.
The list of pokemon were those of two teams I through together I used (I was writing the pokemon down as I saw them while checking my logs; the teams have since been deleted). I would have sworn I used latios right towards the end of testing, but apparently, even my all special team lacked it. Well, you're definately correct. I'm sorry. I didn't use it at all.

you could not more plainly be indicating to me that not only are you unsure about which way you are going to vote, but that you are actually prepared to consult usage statistics to decide your vote instead of your own experiences. that is a big no-no.

oh, for our more observant readers, it should be pretty obvious now that usage of the suspect has something to do with how much stock i or aeolus are willing to put into your paragraphs. that should be common sense, though.

Okay, thank you.
I was honestly surprised, although I doubt anyone would believe something as blatantly obvious as whether or not someone used a suspect. =/
Glad you caught that. Like I said (and demonstrated), I really had no idea on how to vote. I clearly see the issues that should have been blatantly obvious, and will take deep note of these if/when I try to apply for voting rights in the future.
 
Is this a trend then? I'll post mine as well for posterity.

the reason i liked this so much was because of:

It was not a matter of the opposing teams being ill-prepared to deal with it. Rather, it was Latios being an incredibly difficult Pokemon for them to do so.

given how he prefaced this and explained it, i can very easily get behind it. further:

I consider Latios to also be uber under the Support Clause. Not the Memento set, which is great at supporting in its own right, but actually the Specs set once again. Because of its lack of switchins and reliable answers, Specs Latios is nigh on guaranteed to do big damage to an opposing team member every time the Draco Meteor button is pressed. This creates gaping holes in the opponent's defenses which are incredibly easy to exploit with other Pokemon. Latios' wallbreaking power consistently sets up a situation that makes it considerably easier for other Pokemon to sweep. That is the very definition of uber under Support, and Latios fits it perfectly.

it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out why this makes perfect sense.

finally, from a post I made November in my Policy Review thread that I created in the interests of arriving at a better process:

Perhaps it would be better if everyone's bold vote were PMed to the appointed vote talliers, so that the voters and votes wouldn't influence others? While it's not as if we actually tally votes until everyone has posted so people don't actually know what the perfect cookie-cutter vote is, this may be better than having it basically be an open discussion...though there is something to be said for having it be in a discussion format, especially since no votes are "good" until we say they are.

so, for future votes, please feel free to copy legacy raider's intelligence and battling skills and awareness. knowing full well that that's kind of impossible, and also that i now know he has posted a stellar template for suspect test submissions for all to see, and that i have every right to take this into account going forward, given the entire reason i wanted suspect test voting to be private.
 
Hehe, i shall join to this!:

yes you will, and you too will understand why i undeleted your post as i did with reachzero.

Part 1:

Characterize your involvement in the test. Did you play consistently throughout the month, or did you gain all your experience at the end of the test? Did you use the suspect avidly yourself or concentrate on observing it in battle?

I tried to be very organized. I started the first weeks of the test by testing Latios on my teams, checking what it could do, what pokemon walled me with ease, what revenge killed me, and what i could kill.
Around the 3rd week of the test, i started laddering seriously, using several standard teams to learn what Latios did AGAINST me, rather than FOR me.
The last days of the test, after i fulfilled the voting requirements, i tried to watch battles of the Suspect Ladder. I carefully analyzed what scenarios were common, which ones uncommon, and what were the best moves to use in "x" situation.


Part 2:

Offensive Characteristic: One of the main reasons i think Latios is Uber not just because of the power it packs, the speed Latios has is very good too, outspeeding a lot of potential threats for a team, and having a very diverse movepool, it can advance with ease through teams. The Specs Latios is very powerful, hitting a lot of "Counters" with a lot of power, and it can destroy the "common wall" named Blissey by Tricking his Specs. Scarf Latios is not seen too much, but it still has a lot of advantages. It can reach a massive speed of 525, making the life for set-up pokemon like DD Mence, DD Kingdra, AgiliGross and other pokemon eve harder, since those rely on outspeeding for breaking through teams, thanks to their massive power. While other pokemon such as Gengar can also do this, Latios packs both great neutral coverage and the bombshell move Draco Meteor to make both revenge killing and lategame sweeping a snap.
The choiced versions of this very versatile pokemon are not everything it can pack to deal with other pokemon. The Life Orb variant of Latios exchanges power for a lot of versatility, being able to hit a lot of things for super effective damage, and others with a 280 Base Power move (factoring Life Orb). From my experience, HP Fire Latios is unusual, but in my opinion, is very usable and good, powering through Latios's best counters. On the other side of the spectrum, DD Latios is arguably the less seen Latios set, but it shouldn't be underestimated. Latios has a very decent Base 90 Attack, it could be very powerful against unprepared teams.
I already explained everything related to Latios' massive power and sets. But one of the most important reasons I'm voting Uber is the unpredictability of this magnificent Pokemon. It can run 2 different Spectrums, eliminate the counters by tricking, finish off the always common Blissey with the DD Set, or making its way through other pokemon with his tremendous special attack. Latios can run so many different sets that you will need to know it before making a risky move against him, bringing the wrong pokemon can cost you games or in a lesser extent, a lot of your pokemon.

Defensive Characteristic:
Latios is a Pokemon that while being very powerful and an awesome sweeper, his Defense is his biggest weak point and being weak to Pursuit really makes Latios' ability to sweep lower. The thing here is that there are very few pursuiters, the only ones i saw during the test were CB Scizor, CB T-tar and CB Metagross. Scizor gets OHKOd by HP Fire, Metagross is 2HKOd by the same, that just leaves us with Tyranitar who can be called Latios "Nemesis" but heres another thing. Not every team will be running a Tyranitar or a Pursuiter, and even if they carry Tyranitar, it just makes the life of SD Lucario or Scizor a lot easier, getting a free SD after Latios is down. This could arguably listed under the support characteristic, but it's ridiculously difficult to take care of both Latios and the things that can set up alongside it.
Latios has a good Special Defense, which, boosted by Calm Mind, can give problems for special attackers, especially since with its amazingly quick speed it can recover damage in a blink and even recover from status with Refresh.
Latios is not a Pokemon meant to be defensive, i think Latios is a Pokemon made for Offense, or in some cases Support, which I'll explain next.

Support Characteristic: Latios, while being a very offensive Pokemon, it can be an awesome supporter for the rest of a team, or for Baton Pass chains.
Latios is one of like 5 pokemon that learn the combo of Dual Screen + Memento, while the only ones with a competitive value would be Uxie and Gardevoir. In addition to that, Latios is incredibly fast and strong draco meteor smashes taunters even without a large satk investment, making it much more difficult to stop latios from setting up than stopping conventional mementoers.
Memento + DS was very feared on the test, simply because after that, its required a lot of strategy, a dedicated counter team, and luck to stop.

I will be voting latios Uber.

you pretty much appealed to the same phenomenon that legacy raider did. further, you were the only person to mention scarf latios, which was refreshing. i wasnt really convinved by your support characteristcs writeup, mainly because i think much of its efficacy comes through gliscor and its taunt/bp.

Again: "A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep." I don't think that's one pokemon in this case. I think it's two. Deoxys-S was able to Taunt on its own, which is much of the reason it was able to get the screens up (and is much of the reason i have been pimping Taunt hardcore for five years).

so finally, even if i didn't want to believe you actually used scarf latios much (which would be unfair and dumb), i have all the stats in front of me, and i know how much you played, who you played, when, how long the battlers were, and...about 15 other separate variables that went into my creation of the Suspect EXP Formula i spoke about with doug for over 40 minutes on the phone, after spending at least 10 hours formulating it by myself. (read: good luck guessing the hidden "requirement", guys.)
 
OK, well here we go:

Wow, I just can't get over how long all yours are. I must have really good grammar or something ^_^

this is verbatim what i wrote about you:

joshe: yes. #13 SEXP. I’m not going to be the eloquence-nazi, and this is one of many ways in which Suspect EXP can help.

so first, yes, i did write up separate verdicts on everyone who submitted votes to me after reading respective submissions. not because i somehow knew that i would have to post or at least PM some of them individually later, but because i wanted to get my thought process down in written word to best make sure it made sense to myself.

second, the implication here is that you were very borderline, and that without a strong showing in suspect EXP there's no way i would have accepted your submission. i wouldn't go patting yourself on the back with regard to proficiency with the written word anytime soon, though (reminder: you invited this critique by posting your private message in the first place).
 
Since everyone is posting, I might as well do so myself, if that's ok...

you acknowledge that it's impossible for scizor "to switch into a full powered Choice Specs Draco Meteor" exactly where i thought you should, after stating that it is a check, where if you had not i probably would have tossed out your vote. further, when you say:

Although Latios can use Trick to eliminate Blissey as a threat, it severely limits Latios's ability to sweep through a team as a result.
you remind me and us all of what the actual point of the OC is: to be able to sweep teams. sure, it may be lame to get Choice Specs Tricked onto your special wall. but that very much by the definition stated makes Latios incapable of "sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort."

this is one of the most sound points anyone made to me in any of their submissions, and you all should take note of the reasoning here. remember, if anyone knows how powerful Tricking Choice items is, it's definitely me. those of you who feel that Specs Trick contributed to Latios being uber, though, should have stated this in the Support Characteristic kind of like LR did, because it doesn't really have much bearing on latios's OC itself.

finally, your point with the SC kind of speaks to my own point, in that it really isn't just latios pulling off screens that makes it threatening since uxie can do the same thing but you never see it in standard because both pokemon need gliscor for extra support. i'm aware that the unpredictability of latios lends to the efficacy of this support set, as LR pointed out, but it's really not my responsibility to insert that into your own reasoning.
 
Okay, I have read most of the above voting reasonings through and do not see anything that they have on mine. In fact, I believe that my reasoning was better in many respects but I was rejected. I have yet to receive a response as to why I was denied the right to vote so hopefully you guys could give me some insight:

you could have waited for a response to your pm demand of me, but you didn't, oh well. we both know that "you guys" aren't going to do anything but possibly make you feel better about being rejected and possibly implicate me as being biased against you, since you know that it very much does not matter what everyone else thinks about your paragraph when i'm the judge and there's no jury. i would think that you of all people should know that i have absolutely no problem tearing down people in public if i feel they deserve it, and that this would have given you pause wih regarding to posting your submission in two difference places, but i can't say i'm surprised.

anyway:

For the most part, I played consistently throughout the suspect testing month. I usually got in at least 5 battles a day on various accounts with the exception of the third week when I had limited Internet access. Subjecting myself to the suspect ladder nearly every day for the duration of the test allowed me to see how Latios performed in the OU metagame. My constant testing enabled me to observe how his role evolved and the resulting adaptations of his counters.

I both used the suspect and observed it during the testing period. Early on and again towards the end, I used a Timid Choice Specs set. With about a week to go, I found myself using a mixed Life Orb Dragon Dancer and a Life Orb Calm Mind set (which seemed to be the most effective but I’ll save evaluating their effectiveness for question #2). In addition, I used probably 4 different teams through the month, featuring around 20 different Pokemon. Because of this, I was able to determine what worked, what didn’t, and what had to adapt to Latios’ presence.

of the 186 suspect ladder users on which doug and i pulled info you had a Suspect EXP ranking of #156 on your Prometheus account. this was, literally, the worst SEXP ranking of anyone who made the lower requirement. the closest ones to you were: White Sands aka Stathakis at #134, who missed the upper reqs by abuot half a deviation point (and stopped playing under the assumption he was in), Old Hickory aka Fabbles at #120, who for whatever reason did not submit a paragraph after IDing his 1827/64 Rating/Dev, and Shinj, at #113. on your Prometheus account, you used Latios a mere five times in 60 battles. you were 1-4 in those battles.

i am aware of your Bolts account, and it having a better SEXP than your Prometheus account, but it didn't make my SEXP cutoff either. and in the battles on this account you had where you used Latios, you were 13-12.

now before you suspect i didn't account for multiple accounts, i indeed added people's SEXP totals up if i was aware of what alternate accounts they used, even if they did not identify them on the forums. and even if, as in your case, the alts were, for whatever reason, on separate IPs, making my and Doug's detective work a big pain because we have no way of looking them up and verifying the owners otherwise.

finally, i'm pretty sure you know why i'm bringing this up. you didn't use Skymin even once in its Suspect Test. you didn't use Latias even once in her Suspect Test. the few times you did use Latios in his Suspect Test, you performed horribly. i don't know if you thought I wouldn't, you know, look at the stats, but I kind of hope not. again, an awful lot went into my formula for calculating Suspect EXP, and it should be pretty obvious by now that failure to adequately use the Suspect in question is going to negatively impact to what extent you meet the Hidden Requirement.

but to add to that, you, FiveKRunner, have made a mockery of every single Suspect Test since Deoxys-S last October, which includes Skymin, Latias and now Latios. not only have your posts show this, but also your actual experiences. not sure if you thought I would miss this, but whatever. very literally, you asked for it.


so to continue, I obviously viewed your reasoning with much skepticism, given what I showed above regarding you having the absolute worst SEXP out of anyone who made the lower requirements (meaning this has nothing to do with the fact that you are personally disrespectful and whiny). so when you said this:

Specs sets are easily stopped by common special walls such as Blissey and Cresselia. Steel types are extremely common and are more than capable of coming in and resisting whatever Dragon type attacks that Latios has to throw at them. As I said in my first general counters to Latios in the support capability paragraph, there are many Pokemon who can simply pick Latios off after predicting its attack and switching in (Scizor, Tyranitar, Metagross, other Pursuit users with decent defenses).

i not only found it untrue based on what i saw and what other have said, but was not surprised at how it contradicted both my own experiences and those of everyone else who submitted paragraphs to me, whether or not they intended to vote uber. and the reason i was not surprised is because of the very few times you used it, and because of the fact that when you did, you had a losing record. if you had used it more, you would likely had seen why most people thought the specs set made Latios meet the OC.

so this is part of the reason i didnt accept your submission. the other part is your very poor Suspect EXP. you can go ahead and assume that the Hidden Requirement is some ""special" criteria that may have been applied to me and no one else", or you can stop wasting your time and mine, and either take the Suspect Test Process seriously or not even bother voting in the future.
 
I guess I won't bother posting my paragraph.

Anyway, this is kind of disappointing. I was expecting Latios going to OU, but it looks like the Specs set really was quite overwhelming in making people go to vote Uber. Oh well, I guess I will settle with some kind of Latios.

Still, happy that I got to vote. I worked so damn hard to get my alt to the requirements on the last day. I literally got home from school and started laddering like crazy the last day of the test.
 
Hey Jumpman. I was wondering what you thought of my extra criteria suggestion. I don't mind if you rip it apart in front of everybody if you disagree. Or if you would rather just talk about it in a PM, that's fine too. I was just wondering what your thoughts on it were.
 
Hey Jumpman. I was wondering what you thought of my extra criteria suggestion. I don't mind if you rip it apart in front of everybody if you disagree. Or if you would rather just talk about it in a PM, that's fine too. I was just wondering what your thoughts on it were.

ok

Because of this, I feel that a fourth criteria should be implemented with which to judge a suspect:

The Centralization Charactaristic:
A Pokemon is uber if, in common battle conditions, a team must take abnormally excessive precautions to stop it. If you must dedicate a good portion of your team to ensure a Pokemon does not beat you single handedly, then said Pokemon is uber. Also, if you find yourself only able to choose from a small selection of Pokemon or risk losing to the suspect, then said suspect is uber.

i almost tossed your vote out because of this, because it gave me reason to believe that no matter how well you addressed the issues you were encouraged to, this "fourth criteria" was really the reason you decided to vote the way you did (uber), regardless of how much lip service you were able to give our OC, DC and SC. "abnormally excessive" is vague. "good portion of your team" is vague. "beat you single handedly" is not quite as vague but not really an improvement over "sweeping". "small selection of Pokemon" is very vague. i understand that this is something you just offered as a suggestion, but i have posted numerous times why "overcentralization" should not be considered.

the reason the community has never been able to nail down a definition of overcentralization is because it is every bit as vague a term as your definition, however preliminary, is suggesting. the PR thread Tangerine made about it died because of this, even though the term "overcentralizing" and its definition had at the time been given more attention than the term "uber" and its definition. it is not worth it to try and define "overcentralization" now that we have a definition of uber (its characteristics) that we largely agree upon.

anyway, this is my response to a chrisisme post over three months ago that expressed concern that encouraged use of a suspect will encourage inflated use of its counters, and therefore stats that dont mean anything. this is my reply:

yes...for a day or two, until the people get tired of losing with their unsupported CM Latias. it is simple, you guys—if you try to pull off a CM latias without using support pokemon like Dugtrio and Magnezone and just calm minding whenever you feel like it as if this is Advance, you are not likely to win. this matters because you actually need to win to have a say in the actual Stage 2 tag at the end. so, if you are not incredibly shortsighted and/or too stubborn to realize that Latias is not some magic "Win" button, you will either support your team with pokemon like Duggy and Zone in order to win, or you will forego using Latias for a couple days or at all if you're actually winning, and you can be the judge of whether you think your efforts indicated that you had to really go our of your way to make sure you won meaning "latias is uber", or you didn't really have to stray that far from a team you'd normally use meaning "latias is ou".

either way, you will have won and won consistently, which is pretty much the only objective barometer in the test thus far. (i have an idea for another objective barometer and have shared it with the other main suspect test facilitators, but that's for another post.) we don't care if you won for a few days with some mega-latias counter team—it literally and figuratively doesn't work like that. no one worth their salt will not adapt to such a counter team and respond with something featuring, for example and straight off the top of my head, SD Lucario. if someone stupidly packs their team with Tyranitar and Scizor to stop Latias, and Magnezone and Dugtrio to stop Latias's counters in Tyranitar and Scizor, and, say, rounds this team out by using CM/DP/Surf/Recover 4HP/252SpA/252Spe Latias with LO and Blissey to stop special threats, forgetting that he or she actually has to play pokemon in order to win consistently and not just play some counter-team stuff, guess what? this "team" is straight up 6-0ed by Lucario if it gets just one SD. knowing that you actually need to win to have a say in the Stage 2 tag of the suspect anyway, you cannot and will not get away with playing "counter-team pokemon" for very long, and is the entire reason tournaments don't give us conclusive evidence and is why the Suspect Test Processes are a month long. it will work similarly for every suspect we ever test. the example is theorymon of course but i'm sure you can see the point without feeling compelled to respond with "no one would make a team like that".

two points to underline here; first: 'you can be the judge of whether you think your efforts indicated that you had to really go our of your way to make sure you won meaning "latias is uber", or you didn't really have to stray that far from a team you'd normally use meaning "latias is ou"'. this is the heart of what overcentralization really is. since it is so hard to define this term that will be forever mired in vagueness, we leave that up to the players to decide. there should be a way, though, to explain this in the given OC, DC or SC.

second: "(i have an idea for another objective barometer and have shared it with the other main suspect test facilitators, but that's for another post.)" guess what that is? i realized that those who are able to attain record of 1820/50 were, at the time, literally doing everything we asked of them to gain voting rights, and excelling at that. but i also realized that being good at pokemon did not necessarily mean you have a better idea of where a suspect should be tiered than someone who is 1684/61, or even 1630/40. especially when a player refuses to use the suspect because he or she feels that being able to attain an 1820/50 record, with for all intents and purposes what is part "great counterteam" and part "great battlling skills", means that they really have a better idea about how a suspect should be tiered. this isn't how it works anymore. a player should be able to phrase "overcentralization" in such a way that it's apparent in the OC, DC or SC.

and actually, i'm probably going to mandate that everyone has to submit paragraphs to me anyway, though still accounting for those who attain 1820/50 marks and placing them higher than the 1684/61 if they both write equally well. i'll discuss this with the Tiering Contributor Staff and see what they think, but I am positive that everyone here would love to know what the upper requirement people have to say about our suspects.

if your initial reaction to this is one of confusion or even annoyance, think about it this way. if an "1820/50" record actually indicates that the player is more qualified to sound off on a suspect than a 1684/61 record, then, logically, we should all be treated to the best insight on our suspects and where they should be tiered, right? isn't that what our community or at least aeolus and i deserve?
 
Thanks for the response. Basically what I'm getting in a nutshell is that first of all, "overcentralization" is too vague, which I agree with and wish we all had a definition of. However, it also seems like, if explained properly, overcentralization can be a driving force behind the OC, DC, and SC, kind of like how LR did in his paragraph. I never thought of doing it that way, so thanks for that.

Another question I had was, would there be any way for us in the future to look up what our different EXP ratings were that you're talking about? Just curious is all.
 
nah ive talked enough about what's supposed to be a hidden requirement already
 
In response to Jumpman mentioning me in one of his posts, I did not write my paragraph because: We (the voters) were given till Friday to submit our paragraphs, and when I saw that I had not met the hidden requirement you posted on Thursday, I took that to mean even if I wrote a paragraph you would have accepted, my vote would have been rejected. I did not write a paragraph before Thursday due to school work and extracurricular activities.

If I was wrong for thinking this, then it is completely my fault for not submitting a paragraph. A lost opportunity, but I am not to concerned over it. Being successful on the Suspect Ladder was the most important thing to me anyways.
 
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