I am intolerant of intolerance and so can you

[Buckles]

You smother the point with attempted depth and recycled adages. Open displays of hatred that cause psychological harm to the victims of this hatred should not be permitted. That's the gist of what I'm saying. I never advocated a search for people who might think this way or a "black market" of hatred. Of course such a hunt would be catastrophic to society, but whose to say it would go that far? Not you or I, for certain,

And as for verbal vs. physical abuse, physical abuse is illegal. Verbal, however, is allowed to continue on a grand stage, and so does more to oppress and restrict the targets. They can get no protection from the authorities, and they fear to retaliate.

 

[Misty]

i want to point out to hip that canada is not a republic, it still considers queen elizabeth to be its head of state and thus it is a monarchy.

 

[Vineon]

Is free speach actually a founding principle of canada? It usually isnt in commonwealth countries, but I dunno you guys had to copy america and become a republic so maybe it is different for you..

I wish.

Canada isn't a republic, the Queen remains our head of state. I personally find it shameful.

edit : Misty...........

 

[Heysup]

Im fairly disgusted at the uneduction of people posting in this thread. Prepare for alot of quotes..

What you are suggesting is just the same as "Hey speech is free, till I don't agree with what you are saying."

Actually its more like "Speech is free, until you break the law".

Freedom of speech does not cover direct verbal abuse, and threats are extremely illegal.

at least up here in the frigid north, if that isn't the case in the US, I lol at the priority of law passing down there.

My feelings exactly, You cant insult someone (to the extent that the Nazi's do) and say its freedom of speech, if that isnt the case in the states then I would have to say that its a fucked up system.

Saying a group is harmful in ANY way is completely unfair to that group and undemocratic. For example, you can decide one day that jewish folk can't be trusted and are therefore harmful to your society and from there it's a short step to banning that lifestyle and punishing those that live it. The criteria is all relative and every group, no matter what they are saying, is protected by the democracy.

Is this a fucking joke? A group saying "Kill this other group" is not protect by anything. The fact that you think it should be is still terrifying.

I could have sworn that the neo nazi party was just marching in a parade and wasn't the aggressors throwing rocks and starting fights. There was no verbal abuse on the part of the neo nazi party, they were assaulted on principle alone and are therefore fully protected by our laws. It was a rather ingenious plan by them- they turned the 'good guys' (if you wanna call the nazi's the bad guys, which I know you and I are inclined to do) into the 'bad guys' and therefore looked like victims. True, their parade was designed specifically to troll an anti racism celebration, but they did it in a legal way so there is technically nothing wrong with that, unless you wanna outlaw trolling.

The sad thing is, I dont think you are kidding. There is nothing legal about threatening the lives of innocent people. FFS.

The people throwing rocks could probably even get away self-defense. Im just glad there werent more sane people in the Anti-Racist group, because if i was there I would have probably done alot more then throw Rocks.

I'd like to know what the neo-nazis were actually saying. Neither of the articles directly quote them, so I don't know if what they were saying was actually abusive or just distasteful.

What in the hell do you think they were saying? "We are Proud to be white!".....not.

You're saying bad things about nazis and neo-nazis right now, do you consider that hate crime? If not, you're a hypocrite. You've also stereotyped on every neo-nazi, calling them all despicible hate-mongers when you can't possibly know that's true. Not all neo-nazis protest at rallies and scream at streetcorners that Jews are a worthless race that should be hunted, and if a person keeps his views to himself and quietly doesn't associate himself with Jews then he is hurting no one.

nazism is not a religion or race, its a beleif that all minorities are inferior, and should be "exterminated". (editted)

I cant beleive you are defending the people yelling "Kill all these fucking <insert racial/anti-semetic slur> because we are superior!". THAT is a hate crime. No one is generalizing nazi's, for they all stand for nazism, which is what I stated above, the act of being a nazi is a hate crime.

You are not a Nazi unless you beleive in the "extermination" of said innocent people. Which is not generalizing, its what it is.

It's all perception in that case. The Nazi's believed that Jewish people were harming their community, even if they were incorrect in thinking that. When a large portion of a community believes something, it becomes a value in that society and you can end up with people thinking nazi's are cool and arabs/commies/jews/whatever are bad. I'm not saying that all of nazi germany, or even most of it, was in support of it- but it sometimes takes just the right group in power to swing things wrong.

The take home message I'm trying to drill into your skull is that if you prevent someone from expressing their opinions in a legal way (ie not harmful, despite the groups values), you are removing their freedom of speech and that isn't democratic at all.

Why dont you understand the "message im trying to drill into your skull"? Abuse is illegal. Thats it.

If you are worried about rights, why not worry about the people's right to live? Does Freedom of Speech outway this right? Do people using Freedom of Speech saying people dont have the right to live seem right to you? No it doesnt, because its wrong and is in fact illegal.

Please rethink what you are saying. Thank you.

 

[Deck Knight]

You smother the point with attempted depth and recycled adages. Open displays of hatred that cause psychological harm to the victims of this hatred should not be permitted. That's the gist of what I'm saying. I never advocated a search for people who might think this way or a "black market" of hatred. Of course such a hunt would be catastrophic to society, but whose to say it would go that far? Not you or I, for certain,

And as for verbal vs. physical abuse, physical abuse is illegal. Verbal, however, is allowed to continue on a grand stage, and so does more to oppress and restrict the targets. They can get no protection from the authorities, and they fear to retaliate.

The age of an adage is not an indication of either its modern relevance or weight. Truth merely is. One does not need to update the software to something more flashy every time some webinar professor commands it so.

Psychological harm is impossible to measure. If the mere existence of someone who hates you is enough to cause you mental dissaray, then nothing can be done. No one forces you to attend neo-nazi parades or watch KKK cross-burning parties.

I can speak with certitude that once the most extreme elements of society are silenced by popular appeal, the cunning and ambitious will use the precedent to suppress their personal enemies. It has happened throughout recorded history, and will repeat again if allowed to happen. There is nothing in human history without precedent.

It is a lie to believe that we are any more enlightened than our forbears. That somehow because we live in 2009 instead of 1909, 1809, or 1709, that we are not subject to the same passions that drive our ancestors, that the drive for absolute power has been completely stamped out. A mere 70 years ago one man tried to take over all of Europe for fucks sake. After him another man tried to build an ideological empire that took hold over all of Asia. The vestiges of that drive remain standing to this very day.

Humanity never changes, it only becomes more arrogant and pleased with itself. We can only use our advantage of experience if we remember that we remain human, and that if given the chance to exploit others, someone will. Sending those who overtly wish us harm underground makes them more dangerous, not less so. A poisonous snake reveals its nature in its colors, but who can tell if it strikes from below?

Finally, for something lighter:

I fail to see how people fear to retaliate against verbal abuse.

Example:

Whoever: Deck Knight you are an evil racist xenophobic homophobic neocon Bush-clone monster from the depths of Hades.

Deck Knight: You are incorrect; clearly I am from Tartarus (Hades feared me). Fuck you. (Please excuse my French)

 

[Vineon]

heysup,

calm down dude, this isn't how you conduct arguments in here.

Your next post will hopefully be under a less aggressive tone.

 

[umbarsc]

NAZISM IS NOT A RELIGON OR RACE, ITS A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO KILL OR DISPOSE OF EVERY OTHER RACE TO ONLY HAVE A PURE BLOOD ARYAN RACE.

It's an ideology, just like religions.

 

[Heysup]

heysup,

calm down dude, this isn't how you conduct arguments in here.

Your next post will hopefully be under a less aggressive tone.

People can say rediculous things like this and its fine:

It's an ideology, just like religions.

But I cant defend people's right to live?


Just because I quoted using curses, doesnt mean i was angry (and i apologize if it seems this way), and I dont see whats wrong being aggressive (which I am being, no doubt) with an issue, when people are saying "Nazism should be allowed and is allowed to say hateful things that threaten the lives of innocent people because of Freedom of Speech".

If there was a group that wanted to kill/dispose of all Quebecers (which is what i would assume you are, based on your avatar, i apologize if i am wrong), would you calmy say "I disagree"?

Please put yourself in my shoes. Thank you.


Edit: This isnt a peer edit or an RMT, this is someone arguing against people who seem to think its ok people can threaten his own, and other peoples rights to live. I apologize for the frusteration, but someone is trying to convince me that its ok for people to promote and practice "ideologies" that include the mass slaughter of any minority. We know what happens when this escalates, and people like Umbarsc stand and do nothing, which is just as good as Nazism itself. Try to see it from my point of view?

 

[Buckles]

It is a lie to believe that we are any more enlightened than our forbears. That somehow because we live in 2009 instead of 1909, 1809, or 1709, that we are not subject to the same passions that drive our ancestors, that the drive for absolute power has been completely stamped out. A mere 70 years ago one man tried to take over all of Europe for fucks sake. After him another man tried to build an ideological empire that took hold over all of Asia. The vestiges of that drive remain standing to this very day.

I agree. The only difference is that now we have a far more globalized society. Such an empire or witch-hunt in a country as prominent as Canada or the U.S. would not be allowed to continue for long.

If the mere existence of someone who hates you is enough to cause you mental dissaray, then nothing can be done.

Their existence is not what causes the distress of the target, the distress comes from the ability of the offender to flaunt his hatred and threaten the target's race as a whole, legally.

Sending those who overtly wish us harm underground makes them more dangerous, not less so. A poisonous snake reveals its nature in its colors, but who can tell if it strikes from below?

Not to get too literal on you (great metaphor, btw), but if these people are in fact a snake, poisonous, dangerous, how can forcing it under the leaves make it any more lethal than if it is allowed to simply slither through society unmolested?


@ HeYsUp: You were pretty over the top there. It is commonly agreed upon that, over the internet, caps = screaming, and swearing doesn't help. I understand your frustration, but this isn't where to vent it.

 

[umbarsc]

You'll notice I never said it was ok to act on it, HeYsUp. You're putting words into my mouth.

 

[Vineon]

heysup,

Listen, I'd be with you throwing rocks to those people, whether that's seen as a breach of free speech or not. I wouldn't care.

Free speech alright, as long as it doesnt cross a certain line in which it is also free hatred.

That said, you can still defend your point of view without being overly aggressive, something you've shown being able to do in that last post.

 

[Outlaw]

Not to get too literal on you (great metaphor, btw), but if these people are in fact a snake, poisonous, dangerous, how can forcing it under the leaves make it any more lethal than if it is allowed to simply slither through society unmolested?

Because we cannot see it prepare to strike from under the leaves?

 

[Mr. Hadwick]

Call me a nazi-nazi, or whatever, I don't care.

I'm sorry, but this is everything that is wrong with the world, fighting hate with hate, violence with violence is wrong. I really don't like it when people cause harm to others only because there was harm done to them, it's a vicious circle.

Tht being said, of course, I'm torn, I understand where the anti-racists are coming from, and agree with them. Nazis aren't exactly my idea of ideal people. But there will never be a sociaty of ideal people, trying to create that is making you just as bad as the Nazis.

 

[Heysup]

heysup,

Listen, I'd be with you throwing rocks to those people, whether that's seen as a breach of free speech or not. I wouldn't care.

Free speech alright, as long as it doesnt cross a certain line in which it is also free hatred.

That said, you can still defend your point of view without being overly aggressive, something you've shown being able to do in that last post.

Thank you for understanding, I'll try to be less frusterated with my posts.

I'm sorry, but this is everything that is wrong with the world, fighting hate with hate, violence with violence is wrong. I really don't like it when people cause harm to others only because there was harm done to them, it's a vicious circle.

Tht being said, of course, I'm torn, I understand where the anti-racists are coming from, and agree with them. Nazis aren't exactly my idea of ideal people. But there will never be a sociaty of ideal people, trying to create that is making you just as bad as the Nazis.

While you are correct on "paper" with your above paragraph, it does not always work out this way. Some times you have to pick the lesser of two Evils to stop something far worse from happening (e.g. World War II).


With your second Paragraph, the important thing about this mess is that it is stopped, at all costs. Stopping Racism/Anti-semetism/Nazi Ideology is the most important thing to do because things escalate to a point where it is almost "OK" to hate and hurt people for no reason other than their religion or race (and unfortunately it was ok in one case, which I am trying to leave out of this discussion enitirely), and people who stand by and watch are almost as bad, if not as bad, as the people doing it. This is by no means "making" an ideal society, its stopping terrible people from committing terrible crimes against innocent people.

 

[Glen]

it's a really touchy area, i guess, but the way i see it is that fascism to stop exponentially worse fascism is a good thing

edit: morm, not trying to be smarmy, serious question: if you were in a minority group that was victimized by these nazis, would you feel the same way you do now? i dont want to turn this into a 'well how would YOU feel' argument because they are kinda simplistic but i think it's valid

 

[akuchi]

That's the conclusion I came to this morning, Glen- whilst it is not pleasant I think it is necessary. Certainly if it does anything to prevent another Saschsenhausen it is totally valid.

 

[crynts]

But there will never be a sociaty of ideal people, trying to create that is making you just as bad as the Nazis.

That's what laws are for.

Why should we just let them rally for the death of minorities? Not helping those that are in trouble puts you at more fault than being the one that caused the trouble. If we could possibly have some kind of a (peaceful) boycott against them then that would be lovely.

 

[DM]

My feelings exactly, You cant insult someone (to the extent that the Nazi's do) and say its freedom of speech, if that isnt the case in the states then I would have to say that its a fucked up system.

Well, then it's a fucked up system, because that's exactly how it works. "I don't like what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

Is this a fucking joke? A group saying "Kill this other group" is not protect by anything. The fact that you think it should be is still terrifying.

The sad thing is, I dont think you are kidding. There is nothing legal about threatening the lives of innocent people. FFS.

For the last time, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT THEY WERE EXPLICITLY STATING THEIR DESIRE TO KILL OTHERS. Stop using that as an argument.

The people throwing rocks could probably even get away self-defense. Im just glad there werent more sane people in the Anti-Racist group, because if i was there I would have probably done alot more then throw Rocks.

I do hope you're joking with this.

What in the hell do you think they were saying? "We are Proud to be white!".....not.

Actually, yeah, that's pretty much the jist of their message.

I cant beleive you are defending the people yelling "Kill all these fucking <insert racial/anti-semetic slur> because we are superior!". THAT is a hate crime. No one is generalizing nazi's, for they all stand for nazism, which is what I stated above, the act of being a nazi is a hate crime.

You are not a Nazi unless you beleive in the "extermination" of said innocent people. Which is not generalizing, its what it is.

As umbarsc already pointed out, this is patently false. I recommend coming back to this thread after gaining a working knowledge of Nazism.

Why dont you understand the "message im trying to drill into your skull"? Abuse is illegal. Thats it.

Just because you disagree with their ideas doesn't make it abusive.

Does Freedom of Speech outway this right?

People can say rediculous things like this and its fine:

I think you should take it easy on calling people out for their "uneduction."

But I cant defend people's right to live?

Your entire argument is based on your assumption that the paraders were threatening lives. Until you can prove the truth of that beyond doubt, stop arguing.

 

[Chill Murray]

Sounds to me like these people were just celebrating their whiteness. I do think it was trolling on their part to hold a parade on the same day as an anti-racist parade, and I'm not entirely sympathetic to their aims, but I am a firm believer in freedom of speech. So long as they themselves are not doing any physical harm to a person, they should have the right to spout whatever nonsense they wish.

Same goes for Jews who believe that they are a special people ("I would never date goyum"), Christians ("We're not going to hell because we believe the right thing"), etc.

 

[crynts]

DM:
To kill minorities is basically the goal of Nazis. That is what their mission is. I don't see why we have to prove that. Maybe you mean that particular group didn't say that, but then why do they call themselves neo-Nazis?

Times have changed for the Jews. They shouldn't need to sacrifice animals for their sins to go to heaven. Their "messiah" has already come to earth.

Christians don't go to heaven because they believe the right thing, they go to heaven because the Creator has paid their debts and released them from sin. The goal of Christianity is not for their own sake, but it is to tell others about the good news of how Jesus died for them. It is not our resposibility to bring them to God.

Back on topic now, if the Aryan Gaurd calls for the death of minorities, it would make sense for them to go out and kill them, right? Why is that not the case? I suspect that they know who the real minorities are and are fearful that they will be punished. They are abusing the freedom of speech to stay out of trouble. Too bad calling for their removal from society won't be doing much good. I think anti-nazi groups should do the trick.

 

[Polis4rule]

To kill minorities is basically the goal of Nazis. That is what their mission is. I don't see why we have to prove that. Maybe you mean that particular group didn't say that, but then why do they call themselves neo-Nazis?

If I'm not mistaken, isn't the main goal of Nazism just the supremacy of the Aryan race? It was Hitler who came up with the "final solution" in order to make sure that Aryan supremacy stayed. You can still be a Nazi and not want the genocide of entire groups of people. In fact, they seem extremely similar to the Ku Klux Klan, which actually does not have genocide on its goals.

Both of these organizations are racist to an extreme, with the Aryan's representing the Aryan race, and the KKK representing the Protestant Anglo-Saxons.

 

[Heysup]

Well, then it's a fucked up system, because that's exactly how it works. "I don't like what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."


For the last time, THERE IS NO PROOF THAT THEY WERE EXPLICITLY STATING THEIR DESIRE TO KILL OTHERS. Stop using that as an argument.

What they are saying at the time is completely irrelivent. This way of thinking is very naive. It is what they wish to do, and stand for which is the problem. You cant be a considerate nazi, if you are a nazi then you want to kill minorities, there is no reason to argue this.

I stand by your quote, but that is not the case here.

I do hope you're joking with this.

I'm not, so dont get your hopes up. In fact im confident that the world has enough good in it now to stand with me (thank you for the support Vineon). So no, your attempt to protect everything that is evil would likely fail, sorry to disappoint :).

Actually, yeah, that's pretty much the jist of their message.

As umbarsc already pointed out, this is patently false. I recommend coming back to this thread after gaining a working knowledge of Nazism.

I think you should take it easy on calling people out for their "uneduction."

Warning: This area of the post might sound a little more frusterated/angry then the rest, I am sorry for this but i did not want to bring anything up that I am about to say. And of course "no offense" (even though I am offended).

To start, you seem to forget the event that occured less then 70 years ago. Their message very CLEARLY is not "We are proud to be white". If you remember, nazi's brutally killed 13 Million People, and the message you are getting is "we are proud to be white"? Ignorance is just as bad as Nazism.

I'm the one that doesnt know what Nazism is? Sorry if my background--(being:
-Taking a 12 Year Course
- being to the museum of tolerance in LA
- being to the holocaust museum in Washington
- being to Yadvashem twice(a holocaust museum in Israel)
- Travelling through Poland, and going to see 3 concentration camps
- My grandparents being the generation that had all of their friends and family brutally slaughtered by the Nazi's)

--is not enough "knowledge" of Nazism for you, but in my opinion, it really is. So no, it is not false that nazi's "ideology" is to exterminate all "inferior" people. It suprises me that people think they know about nazis when they are saying that their message is "we are proud to be white". It makes me cringe. Thank god most of the world has gotten the correct message, unfortunately I guess there are still some that dont quite understand, but now hopefully you are not one of them. Thank You.

Just because you disagree with their ideas doesn't make it abusive.

So idea that people should die and are worthless is not abuse? Please. This would be funny if it wasnt so sad.

Your entire argument is based on your assumption that the paraders were threatening lives. Until you can prove the truth of that beyond doubt, stop arguing.

Unless you are denying the mass killings of 13 Million people, that is all the proof I need. People wanting to continue this is enough to make me feel threatened. I would be glad to not have to argue this point.

 

[Polis4rule]

Warning: This area of the post might sound a little more frusterated/angry then the rest, I am sorry for this but i did not want to bring anything up that I am about to say. And of course "no offense" (even though I am offended).

To start, you seem to forget the event that occured less then 70 years ago. Their message very CLEARLY is not "We are proud to be white". If you remember, nazi's brutally killed 13 Million People, and the message you are getting is "we are proud to be white"? Ignorance is just as bad as Nazism.

I'm the one that doesnt know what Nazism is? Sorry if my background--(being:
-Taking a 12 Year Course
- being to the museum of tolerance in LA
- being to the holocaust museum in Washington
- being to Yadvashem twice(a holocaust museum in Israel)
- Travelling through Poland, and going to see 3 concentration camps
- My grandparents being the generation that had all of their friends and family brutally slaughtered by the Nazi's)

--is not enough "knowledge" of Nazism for you, but in my opinion, it really is. So no, it is not false that nazi's "ideology" is to exterminate all "inferior" people. It suprises me that people think they know about nazis when they are saying that their message is "we are proud to be white". It makes me cringe. Thank god most of the world has gotten the correct message, unfortunately I guess there are still some that dont quite understand, but now hopefully you are not one of them. Thank You.

The Nazis did not originally call for the extermination of all Jews. Yes, they wanted to repress them, but they did not explicitly call for their destruction until Hitler proposed the "Final Solution." Just throwing that out.

 

[Glen]

furthermore, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't neo-naziism more along the lines of 'keep them the fuck out of my country' than 'kill them'?

 

[umbarsc]

-Taking a 12 Year Course

Ok I'm assuming you meant to say "month".

What they are saying at the time is completely irrelivent. This way of thinking is very naive. It is what they wish to do, and stand for which is the problem. You cant be a considerate nazi, if you are a nazi then you want to kill minorities, there is no reason to argue this.

What? What they actually said is completely relevant. It's the only thing that fucking matters! You can't say "they shouldn't be allowed to have a parade because they're saying death threats" then say "well even if they aren't saying death threats we all know they mean it!" If they weren't saying threats, they weren't saying threats. End of story.