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CAP 8 CAP 8 - Part 3 - Secondary Type Discussion

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When did we decide it was a defensive pokemon?
I like Ice because of the offensive STAB boltbeam, but that is IMO.
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If Adaptability was an option for ability, I would consider backing that. Though, you're now weak to Fighting, Ground, AND Stealth Rock (all oh so common), along with being neutral to Steel. Not the best idea, and as mentioned above (ignoring the latter part for his sake), offensive pokemon really need resistances to get in while defensive pokemon don't mind neutral blows.

And nobody is saying it's defensive or offensive; yes a lot of posts are built around resistances but that's the jist of what typing does for you.
 
everyone on #cap already agreed that voting rock is the best choice.

you get two great stabs with electric and rock, which are super effective against fire, water, ice, flying (two different stabs for flying actually, rock for dragons and electric for non dragons), and bug.

as for resistances it yields normal, fire, electric, poison, flying while being weak to water, grass, fighting and ground. with these resistances and weaknesses it allows cap to not be a centralizing force while still be threatening.
 
I like the idea of Poison. It would be interesting to see a poison type that actually makes use of it's typing in OU (no, Gengar doesn't count). With poison, it also resists all of Scizors usual moveset, barring Pursuit. Not to mention Toxic immune and T-Spikes absorption.
 
Eh, I cant decide between Poison and Dragon, but I'm leaning towards poison.


Elec/Poison: 4x weak to ground, 2x weak to psychic
2x resist to steel, fighting, grass, electic, flying and poison
Elec/Dragon: 2x weak to ground, Ice, and Dragon
4x resist to elec 2x resist to water, steel, grass, fire, and flying

Elec/Dragon is also only resisted by magnezone
 
Seems like Fighting, Poison, and Bug are the most popular options.

I'm starting to see the merit in Poison, but Poison in itself isn't really the best offensive move, good only against Poison, and completely resisted by Steel. Though we're not even sure if this is offensive or defensive.
Regardless though, every Pokemon still appreciates a good type coverage.

I think I'm still at it for Bug. Fighting doesn't seem too notable, in my opinion.
Offensively, Fighting is typically physical, and Electric is typically special.
Typically, at least. Both can still go the other way, finely, I guess.
Defensively, it's fine, but it still has that Ground Weakness...
 
Elevator Music said:
Poison. If you've been on the server you've probably heard me lobbying for Elec/Poison and here's why:

- Electric/Poison has good resistances: Steel, Fighting, and Flying resistances are really cool to me and I wanted them on this CaP badly. On top of that you have an Electric resistance and a Bug resistance (as well as a Grass and Poison resist). And if you've noticed, most of these types (bar Steel), are not paired offensiely with types that Electric/Poison is weak to.

- Neutrality to Stealth Rock: I would have pushed for Electric/Bug or Electric/Flying, but I decided that a neutrality to Stealth Rock and less weaknesses made Electric/Poison a much better typing defensively, even though the above two weren't 4x Ground weak and still resisted Fighting.

- Not Pursuit-weak: Uggh I hate Pursuit-weak defensive pokemon. I would have liked Electric/Ghost or Electric/Psychic (as they also had excellent resistances), but they were Pursuit weak and overall that made me want Electric/Poison more.

- Look past the 4x Ground weakness! You shouldn't be fighting any pokemon with Ground moves anyways. We picked an Electric-type pokemon, so unless we make it insanely bulky it won't be able to withstand more than one Earthquake regardless. Also, keep in mind a lot of the types that Electric/Poison has resistances to rarely (if ever) pack Ground type attacks. The only type that does is Steel (because Bronzong and Metagross and the rare Forretress run Earthquake). Fighting types generally don't because it's bad coverage. Flying types don't because they generally don't have access to EQ. Heracross, Syclant, Yanmega, and Scizor (the only commonish Bug pokemon) don't run EQ. It won't be an issue. Electric/Poison-mon will still have plenty of pokemon to wall.

Of course, the Psychic weakness is also pretty irrelevant since again, most of the types that Electric/Poison resists don't pack Psychic-type attacks either (except the rare Zen Headbutt Jirachi and Metagross).


Electric/Poison is an excellent defensive typing, and if you want a defensive ability/pokemon then it's a fine choice to pick for CaP8!
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EM has pretty much won me over to Poison in this post. In addition to what's already been pointed out here, the only things in OU that resist the combination of Electric and Poison are ground-types such as Fidgit and Gliscor, which it shouldn't be staying in on anyway, so it's not too terrible offensively.

As for the other popular type, bug, I'm not really liking it. It has some nice attributes, such as a ground neutrality, but that Stealth Rock weakness is killer, especially since we won't be able to give it something like Mountaineer. If it wasn't for the SR weakness though, I probably would have gone with it.

I'd also prefer not to go for Grass. It's not SR or Pursuit weak, and the Ground neutrality is nice, but the added weaknesses are unpleasant. Fire shouldn't be too much of an issue hopefully, but the Ice and Bug weaknesses aren't too great.

However, no secondary typing also isn't too bad; it keeps CAP8 at only one weakness, and it doesn't pick up a weakness to SR. It also isn't too terrible itself in any area, so it would be my secondary choice, should poison fail.

jagged_angel said:
I'm leaning more strongly towards Elec/Bug or Elec/Fighting, both have only 2 weaknesses and pretty decent STAB synergy. As offensive type combos, they are quite high up.
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Not really sure about Electric/Fighting. Metagross and Jirachi are both still neutral to Fighting, and can hit you with Earthquake and Zen Headbutt (where you'd be neutral to it otherwise) for super-effective damage, respectively. It also makes Pokemon like Celebi, Gliscor (even more so than it already was), and Kitsunoh (due to it's fighting immunity) more willing to come in. It does help a bit against Pokemon like Lucario and Magenzone (if CAP8 is faster than it), but I'm not sure that's worth it.

Edit: Not sure I like Rock either. It's adding on several weaknesses, just to hit Fire and Ice for super-effective basically. However, the only Fire and Ice types really found commonly in Standard are Heatran, Pyroak, Mamoswine, Syclant and Weavile. However, due to their secondary typings, Heatran and Mamoswine are both neutral to rock.

That leaves Weavile, Syclant and Pyroak. Weavile is on the frail side, so it doesn't really need STAB rock to be taken care of; even something like Volt Tackle or Thunderbolt should leave a good dent in it, ignoring other options we could give it, such as Close Combat (plus, there's also how on the reverse side of things, if you're not faster than it, it will be able to leave a big dent in you regadless). Similar applies to Syclant, leaving Pyroak. But even negating that and assuming it wouldn't be able to touch Syclant and Weavile at all otherwise, that means you're adding on several weaknesses just to make it handle three Pokemon (Syclant, Pyroak, and Weavile) more easily, and I'm not sure if that's a fair trade off.
 
Poison does nothing resistance wise that Fidgit can't do.
I don't see the point in making a pokemon that's the same as another CAP.
 
Why Dragon should reign supreme.

With the creation of a Ghost/Steel CAP that was not horribly broken (as some might have thought it would only be at CAP1), I believe that CAP is finally ready for this major step.

So why Dragon?

First, Dragon attacks have only 1 resistance: Steel. Only Steelix resists the combination of Electric and Dragon.

Electric/Dragon thus has a lot of offensive prowess. Grass, Electric, and Dragon resist Electric attacks and only Steel resists Dragon. A proberly powered Thunderbolt or Draco Meteor is not something most pokemon want to experience, nor would many bulky waters care to switch into a STAB Thunderpunch while preparing for the brunt of Outrage. This leaves only Bulky Grounds as reliable counters.

Defensively, simultaneous resistance to Grass, Fire, Water, and Electric(4x) is amazing, and the Flying and Steel resistances are an added bonus. Although Ground, Ice, and Dragon weaks are fairly common few OU pokemon (outside of other Dragons and Gyarados, all poor checks based on typing alone) carry more than one of each.

Electric/Dragon also has no crippling SR or Pursuit weaknesses.
 
If you're of the mind of Wonder Guard , the weaknesses to Ground, Ice, and Dragon are all each common enough, despite the overall number of weaknesses being low.
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This is of course assuming that our Pokemon has 1 HP. Which it likely will not.
 
nizik said:
Poison does nothing resistance wise that Fidgit can't do.
I don't see the point in making a pokemon that's the same as another CAP.
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Who says it will be the same as Fidgit just because it shares one type with it? Mamoswine shares a typing with Fidgit, does that mean it's the same as it? How about Flygon? Or going wit the other typing, is it and Gengar the same? It and Crobat or Toxicroak? The point is, Fidgit is a Utility-Pokemon, meant to set up stuff like Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. As long as we don't go down that road, and focus on making it something such as a more offensive threat or a tank instead, the fact that it shares a typing with Fidgit and some resistances as a result couldn't matter in the least.
 
Veedrock said:
Basically the only reason I say that is because there are are few resistances to work off of, with Electric's lone resistances not being enough to do much with. Hence I want a second typing, to add resistances. Yes it adds weakness but every pokemon has them (except Spiritomb and Sableye, but you get the point). I'm not fond of monotypes for the reason above (normal somehow gets away with it).
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While resistances are a large part of how a Pokemon can play, I don't support that it's required to make a usable Pokemon. Giving it a strong stat spread and/or movepool can compensate quite well for a lack of resistances.

It's not so much trading weaknesses for resistances: it's that the tradeoffs simply aren't worth it most of the time. Grass, for instance, provides relatively minor benefits, for added weakness to quite a few common typings.

I'm on the fence about Poison. The tradeoffs aren't as strong, and there are a few good benefits (Fighting and Bug are pretty common), but it seems a down offensively and it's not really strong enough defensively to work as that well. :S
 
I think the Stealth Rock weakness can easily be overcome depending on what we do with it. If it's defensive enough, it may be offputting, but can easily be overlooked if it's stats are good enough. If it's offensive... Well, say it's an incredibly fragile, completely offensive Pokemon. It's not that big a downcast than.

And there's always the ability. *Shot*
 
jagged_angel said:
DK, you can't discuss Abilities in this thread, don't you think we'd all be doing it if it was allowed?!
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I'm merely stating how the typing would work with any of the potential abilities discussed in the concept thread. I can remove the bits about them specifically but they each remain true.
 
Bug.
Neglected ability, meet neglected typing.

Granted, we've done a part Bug before, but that doesn't matter so much. There aren't many usable bugs (Sorta limited to Syclant, Forry, and Scizor), and it would accomplish the thing people want to see; Neutralize electric's ground weakness. Ground is more common than Fire and Rock (though both are fairly common), and a 2x SR weakness isn't so killer. Also, STAB electric covers it's flying weak pretty well.

It's typing doesn't really restrict making this an offensive, defensive, or support pokemon. At least one good STAB typing gives it the ability to potentially be offensive, decent resistances allows it to potentially a good guy on defense, and both electric and bug allow for plentiful support moves. It's a very flexible combination, where we don't have to work around any too glaring weaknesses (I'm looking at you 4x ground, and you as well Syclant being given mountaneering).

For a open concept, lets keep the typing flexible enough to work through potential roles it can play.
 
Im going to vote Electric/Water for a few reasons. This is still an open CAP and this typing leaves enough versatility to make use of its excellent Dual STABs if offensive, and good resistances if defensive. No 4X weaknesses and no SR weak are also major benefits.
 
Dragon would be pretty cool, seeing as theres no secondary dragon type.
Otherwise, I think Ice offers some good options.
 
Deck Knight said:
Why Dragon should reign supreme.

With the creation of a Ghost/Steel CAP that was not horribly broken (as some might have thought it would only be at CAP1), I believe that CAP is finally ready for this major step.

So why Dragon?

First, Dragon attacks have only 1 resistance: Steel. Thus if Tinted Lens were chosen this pokemon could always hit for neutral damage with Draco Meteor and/or Outrage. It would thus supply a reason not to take the offenses too overboard.

If you're of the mind of Wonder Guard , the weaknesses to Ground, Ice, and Dragon are all each common enough, despite the overall number of weaknesses being low.

I of course support Static. Dragon/Electrics resistance to 2 out of 3 Elemental punches/Fangs, Waterfall, Meteor Mash, and Bullet Punch make it an ideal switchin for each of those predictable scenarios.

Nevertheless, simultaneous resistance to Grass, Fire, Water, and Electric(4x) is amazing, and the Flying and Steel resistances are bonus.

Dragon works well with all of those abilities and more. Even Own Tempo is useful with a STAB Outrage. Skill Link is about the only ability it isn't compatible with, seeing as there are no multi-hit Electric or Dragon moves to abuse.
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I don't particularly enjoy the idea of Tinted Lense Draco Meteor. I think that the typing should not be overbearing. Instead something balanced and reasonable. As you have already pointed out a Dragon/Electric CaP would be incredibly good with alot of the neglected abilities, but it might be a little much I think.

Another idea I'd like to through out there, Electric/Ground.

Weakness: Ground, Water, Grass, Ice

Resist: Elecric, Poison, Rock, Flying, Steel

Super Effective: Fly, Water, Electric, Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel

Not Very Effective: Dragon, Grass

Electric/Ground typing gives this CaP a pretty good offensive typing. Things that resist Electric/Ground include the levitating or Flying Dragons and Grass types. All of these pokemon, with the exception of Ludicolo and Abomasnow, can be taken care of by the addition of an Ice attack. This offensive typing would also allow for CaP 8 to handle Metagross and Jirachi better than Electric/Poison could accomplish with STAB Ground type moves.

Defensively it gives pretty much the same resitances as the popular Poison secondary typing that is being talked about, but trades the Fighting resist for a Rock one. The Rock resist also gives CaP 8 Stealth Rocks resistance. I would trade that for a fighting resist any day. Also the drop of Poison's Psychic weakness and Resistance to Steel type moves would allow CaP 8 to combat Metagross and Jirachi quite well.
 
Azacin said:
Dragon would be pretty cool, seeing as theres no secondary dragon type.
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I don't see how this is a big factor, considering that Dragon/Ground (Flygon) plays the exact same as a hypothetical Ground/Dragon. :/

EDIT: Actually, I'm totally unsure as to the order in which Flygon's typing is - considering it starts as a Ground type. Either way it proves a point: If it's already Ground/Dragon: problem solved. If it's not, my argument still stands.
 
Naxte said:
Who says it will be the same as Fidgit just because it shares one type with it? Mamoswine shares a typing with Fidgit, does that mean it's the same as it? How about Flygon? Or going wit the other typing, is it and Gengar the same? It and Crobat or Toxicroak? The point is, Fidgit is a Utility-Pokemon, meant to set up stuff like Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes. As long as we don't go down that road, and focus on making it something such as a more offensive threat or a tank instead, the fact that it shares a typing with Fidgit and some resistances as a result couldn't matter in the least.
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I was refering to the Toxic Spikes absorbtion, which was a post pretty far up. Fidgit is already a great pokemon to use for that, so I don't see why you would make it poison just for that.
 
I'll definitely be voting against Bug. Now that we have more than six CAPmon, my goal is to make a decent all-CAP team as soon as possible (and come on, I can't be the only person who wants to do that). It's the same approach I take when I play ubers. I've never made an uber team that didn't include at least four (usually five) ubers, not because they're "the best," but because the point of playing the one metagame where they're allowed is, in my mind at least, to use them. I'd actually prefer that this CAP be weak to Ground so that Syclant and Stratagem can switch in on Earthquakes, and it will help me for obvious reasons if this guy resists Flying.

This is also why I'm interested in Dragon, which works well with my favorite CAP pokemon: Syclant. Electric/Dragon resists Syclant's Flying, Steel and 4x Fire weaknesses, while Syclant resists Ground and Ice.

Just something to consider if, like me, you want to overuse the CAPmon and win.
 
Personally I want a typing that plays well on both sides of the fence, so we dont force the our hand on the offense/defense bias poll before it has started.

For that I suggest Dragon. It pretty much plays well with any ability we give it. Offensivly Electric/Dragon has only 1 OU pokemon that resist it. Defensively it has a fair number of resists and while all its weakness have major presence, they are certainly managable. Of course it also suffers no ill effects from Stealth rocks or Pursuit.
 
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