The Pirate Bay Sold for 8 million dollars

Ancien Régime

washed gay RSE player
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...ing-legit-music-biz-cautiously-optimistic.ars

And no, things won't stay the same:

http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-bay-closes-its-tracker-removes-torrents-090630/

From what it looks like, it seems TPB will become something like Napster, where one will be forced to pay in order to use it. That is, one will be forced to pay in order to share one's own property with others.

On one level, it's not a big loss - other torrent sites will come in to pick up the slack, such as Demonoid. However, it is a shame, even though it's understandable, that they had to cave.

I hope you intellectual "property" monopolists are happy now.

EDIT:
From what it seems, this could very well be a decentralization - instead of one tracker, there would be a multitude of them. This would make it far harder to stop "piracy" through lawsuits, or at least more time-consuming.

Nobody really knows what's happening...just stay tuned.
 
I generally use torrents for PC and PS2 games, especially Japanese visual novels. No TPB could be a bit of a problem in that regard.

Music is fine - it's software and movies that are mostly torrent-based.
 
I generally use torrents for PC and PS2 games, especially Japanese visual novels. No TPB could be a bit of a problem in that regard.

Music is fine - it's software and movies that are mostly torrent-based.
fair enough.

i have private torrents for television and movies too...never been in to pirating games though. =X
 
Tangerine said:
being intellectually dishonest as usual


Save it, you still are unable to tell me why infinitely reproducible, utterly intangible, and completely non-scarce "goods" are subject to any sort of property considerations.

While you're at it, please justify why you are downloading/streaming anime?
 
Save it, you still are unable to tell me why infinitely reproducible, utterly intangible, and completely non-scarce "goods" are subject to any sort of property considerations.

While you're at it, please justify why you are downloading/streaming anime?

Unless you can come up with a free-market solution for putting millions of people out of programming jobs, then please don't pretend you aren't doing anything wrong.
 
Unless you can come up with a free-market solution for putting millions of people out of programming jobs, then please don't pretend you aren't doing anything wrong.
the knee-jerk answer is "i wouldn't buy it in the first place, so i'm not actually hurting anyone"

but that has it's own set of issues...

EDIT: and "millions" is a bit of a stretch anyway...
 
lol

You mean the jobs that managed to survive the previous 10 years of file sharing?

That's as weak an argument as it gets.

Please, "copyright" is just a way for its holders to dictate how a privately owned product is to be used, often to the deteriment of future progress.
 
Save it, you still are unable to tell me why infinitely reproducible, utterly intangible, and completely non-scarce "goods" are subject to any sort of property considerations.

While you're at it, please justify why you are downloading/streaming anime?

lol

why dont you go back and actually... read my posts instead of skimming them and say "omg he said piracy has negative effects and he's for intellectual property HE IS BEING STUPID"? Why are you accusing others of being intellectually dishonest when the only layer of my argument you can understand is that "He is for intellectual property therefore he believes piracy is evil and everything is bad". Nice black/white simplistic world you live in.

This is what I said about intellectual property/patents, because obviously, my argument was completely over your head and you never bothered responding other than the typical "i'm going to ignore your argument and i'm going to pretend being for intellectual property means that you are for the actions of RIAA/MPAA whatever"

1) Marginal Costs dictate price. This means, pirated goods are always cheaper than the official price, even if the pirated goods contain the exact same material and the same quality. This is due to the costs involved in R&D. In the short run, firms will sell at Marginal Costs, but in the long run, firms will want to make up for the fixed costs. Meaning, pirated goods put firms out of business - intellectual property/patents are necessary simply only to make up for the fixed costs. This means that I think that copyright/patent laws should expire sooner, or the way we think about copyright should change. I agree with Brain's idea that artists should be smart about it such as "if people donate X amount of money, this album will be released for free for everyone, donaters will get a CD mailed to them when it is also released". This doesn't mean, however, IP isn't necessary. IP is still necessary to protect these artists from lets say, people who "somehow" obtain their material and release it before the artist does.

Goods being nonscarce/infinitely reproduceable means jack shit in the long run. Sadly you're probably only capable of thinking in the short run considering that's the only argument you've ever brought up seeing how you're constantly mentioning marginal costs. Maybe if you actually studied economics (you know, the portions that even austrians agree upon) you'd realize this.

2) Pirating, however, is an incentive for the firm to change their business model. The current RIAA is pretty much like GM. They are doing badly not because "those damn japanese cars" or "those damn pirates", they are doing badly because their business model/quality of their offerings are terrible. Pirating should be an incentive for RIAA to rethink their business, not "we must protect ourselves from it". The same for most other services.

"lol I stream/download anime i'm such a filthy pirate and a hypocrite". Don't cut me that bullshit. It falls under the same thing as above. Anime companies are actually being smart about things and changing their business models to adapt to the digital age, believe it or not. I dont believe the current "sell DVDs" models work due to the digital age. This means that the US licensors need to move on and change their business strategy (like a lot of them have been doing). Oh PS, I actually do buy series I like...

3) Data is tangible. IP doesn't care how many times your "human mind" can reproduce shit. The point is that the physical manifestation of a concept is tangible. I don't see why just because it's in data form it shouldn't be protected by law. Of course, the point of law is to be enforceable - and the current way people think of enforcing copyright is not enforceable. This means the ideas behind copyright should be changed, doesn't make IP any less necessary.

blah blah
 
I agree with everything Tangerine posted. Ancien Regime is being very simple-minded on this issue, most likely due to a bias towards wanting more things that he doesn't want to pay for but wants anyway.

As far as The Pirate Bay goes, it's sad they had to sell their website after losing to a sham lawsuit that should never have gone as far as it did, let alone beat them.
 
1) Marginal Costs dictate price. This means, pirated goods are always cheaper than the official price, even if the pirated goods contain the exact same material and the same quality. This is due to the costs involved in R&D. In the short run, firms will sell at Marginal Costs, but in the long run, firms will want to make up for the fixed costs. Meaning, pirated goods put firms out of business

We went over this, and amazingly, I feel you refute this point later in your post - the firm can provide goods that the pirates cannot, or adopt business models that garner profit even at lower (or even zero) prices. Your argument seems to be that they shouldn't have to change their business model.

This doesn't mean, however, IP isn't necessary. IP is still necessary to protect these artists from lets say, people who "somehow" obtain their material and release it before the artist does.

The only way a leak can happen is through a breach of contract (a music distribution company would have such a thing written in), which is seperate from IP.



Goods being nonscarce/infinitely reproduceable means jack shit in the long run.

In a discussion as to whether something is property, yes it is. It is not so much as an economic issue as a definitional issue.

2) Pirating, however, is an incentive for the firm to change their business model. The current RIAA is pretty much like GM. They are doing badly not because "those damn japanese cars" or "those damn pirates", they are doing badly because their business model/quality of their offerings are terrible. Pirating should be an incentive for RIAA to rethink their business, not "we must protect ourselves from it". The same for most other services.

Again, you refute your first point with your second. In your first point, you argue that lower marginal costs will put firms out of business, then you argue that firms can make profits despite this.

Data is tangible. IP doesn't care how many times your "human mind" can reproduce shit. The point is that the physical manifestation of a concept is tangible.

This is still relevant to determining whether it is property. If I can reproduce a good infinitely, how can it be a good? Furthermore, by me copying an item, it does not deprive the original owner of it. Therefore, it cannot be 'theft" in any meaningful sense.
 
The second point does not refute his first post. That is a very simple-minded way of putting things. There are different ways of monetizing creative work than the current setup that the RIAA has. A good example is Valve's Steam platform which is set up in a way that many people find to provide a better user experience than buying from retail or pirating ever could. The music industry is completing backwards right now, but I don't see how that gives the right for you to take what you want and not reimburse the artist in any way.
 
Because I'm not taking anything from the artist - I'm taking from other users who have already paid for and own the product! That's why it's "sharing" - someone has to have already paid for the product in order for it to occur.
 
Because I'm not taking anything from the artist - I'm taking from other users who have already paid for and own the product! That's why it's "sharing" - someone has to have already paid for the product in order for it to occur.
So you think that after $0.99, the artist has been sufficiently reimbursed for the development of the song? I'm not sure you understand the money that is required to create the work you feel entitled to have for free.

Oh and you full well know that nobody has to have paid for the work in question to have leaked it online. You might be "borrowing" stolen work. Often, people are.
 
If I feel the artist deserves further renumeration, and I have the funds for said renumeration, then I will pay that, and the majority of people will. I buy on Steam, etc, when I get the money, because as you say above, the games are at reasonable prices, and the user experience is worth the money paid over zero that I could get with simply pirating the game.

It is the consumer which decides what an artist's work is worth, rather than normative statements. The artist does not have the right to compel people to buy at monopoly prices.
 
I would say the artist is allowed to set the price their work is worth. If you don't like it, you don't buy it. They set their price lower, and if it's worth that, you buy it. If not, you don't. I don't see why you should be able to lay out what the artist's rights are and aren't.
 
More like "if the artist doesn't adjust his price he doesn't sell it". I don't see why you have to create entitlements for the artist that violate my rights.

The market sets the price that any good is worth. Of course, unless the seller of the good doesn't want to sell it.
 
If I feel the artist deserves further renumeration, and I have the funds for said renumeration, then I will pay that, and the majority of people will. I buy on Steam, etc, when I get the money, because as you say above, the games are at reasonable prices, and the user experience is worth the money paid over zero that I could get with simply pirating the game.

It is the consumer which decides what an artist's work is worth, rather than normative statements. The artist does not have the right to compel people to buy at monopoly prices.


I always thought it was fantastically ironic - and a sign of just how badly the music industry has fucked up - that I know people who'll pay to use a private tracker (is that the right word?) for much the same price as paying for downloads.

Anyway, AR, I'm with you on this one, oddly enough. We must stop meeting like this!
 
1) Marginal Costs dictate price. This means, pirated goods are always cheaper than the official price, even if the pirated goods contain the exact same material and the same quality. This is due to the costs involved in R&D. In the short run, firms will sell at Marginal Costs, but in the long run, firms will want to make up for the fixed costs. Meaning, pirated goods put firms out of business - intellectual property/patents are necessary simply only to make up for the fixed costs.

When costs are fixed, it makes sense for you to recover them. It also makes sense for you to recover an additional percentage of the investment in order to motivate the production. But as soon as you recover them, it makes no sense to sell at any higher than marginal costs (i.e. zero). Basically, Windows XP sure as fuck should be free by now.

Your concern about fixed costs certainly is reasonable, but at best it only justifies very, very limited copyright. If copyright is deemed necessary, in any case, it should not extend past the recovery of the fixed costs plus a fixed percentage (for motivation's sake). To grant any more protection is lunacy and allows disproportionate returns on investment. Also notice that under such a law, copyright infringement would never make anyone liable for more than the fixed costs (which are actual costs that could be verified, so they are much easier to justify) and that once the payment is made works would enter the public domain. People at large would also gain an incentive to pay for works: so that they would enter public domain and thus be more accessible.

This means that I think that copyright/patent laws should expire sooner, or the way we think about copyright should change. I agree with Brain's idea that artists should be smart about it such as "if people donate X amount of money, this album will be released for free for everyone, donaters will get a CD mailed to them when it is also released". This doesn't mean, however, IP isn't necessary. IP is still necessary to protect these artists from lets say, people who "somehow" obtain their material and release it before the artist does.

Obviously, these artists do not have to produce anything before they are paid or before there is a guarantee of payment.

Goods being nonscarce/infinitely reproduceable means jack shit in the long run. Sadly [AR is] probably only capable of thinking in the short run considering that's the only argument [AR has] ever brought up seeing how [he is] constantly mentioning marginal costs.

The major issue here is that a surcharge on null marginal costs doesn't pass nearly as well as a surcharge on non-zero marginal costs. Not nearly as well. There are advantages to free digital distribution that go well beyond price: the freedom to send a file to your friends, the freedom to get a file instantly at any place that makes it available. Any pay model requires non-trivial infrastructure and a lock-in on distribution which is unacceptable by today's standards. There is a world of difference for distribution when you go from a few cents to zero and most of the advantages can hardly be monetized.

I'll put it bluntly: when the distribution cost is zero for everyone, to put a surcharge on distribution is lunacy. You just don't do it because you can't do it. Don't try to justify failing business models. For as long as marginal costs were not zero, a surcharge was easy to justify and easy to enforce. Now it isn't, so screw it and let's find something else.

2) Pirating, however, is an incentive for the firm to change their business model. The current RIAA is pretty much like GM. They are doing badly not because "those damn japanese cars" or "those damn pirates", they are doing badly because their business model/quality of their offerings are terrible. Pirating should be an incentive for RIAA to rethink their business, not "we must protect ourselves from it". The same for most other services.

Honestly, as far as I know, they are doing fine. They are just being greedy. If they rethought their business models they might reduce piracy but they might not actually earn more as a result. Or I figure that they would do it.

3) Data is tangible. IP doesn't care how many times your "human mind" can reproduce shit. The point is that the physical manifestation of a concept is tangible. I don't see why just because it's in data form it shouldn't be protected by law.

Considering that zip files can have a certain amount of garbage at the end of them, it would be possible for someone to take a song protected by copyright, zip it and pad it in such a way that it becomes the binary representation of a prime number. Pad it enough and it would gain significance as one of the longest known prime numbers. Unzip it and you get a song. This has been done before for an "illegal" program, DeCSS, in order to ridicule the concept that one could ban or control the distribution of particular pieces of data. It also stands to reason that some random number generator could eventually generate a sequence of bits corresponding to a song. Should that be the case, you could produce a seed and a number n such that the nth bit of the sequence of bits produced by a RNG initialized with that seed marks the beginning of the song. Would there be laws prohibiting the distribution of that number? If I had a non-trivial algorithm that mapped an otherwise meaningful sequence of bits (e.g. 10101010101010) to a song, would that algorithm be illegal? To say that data is property is inane. Any sequence of bits can have several meanings, any sequence of bits can be produced in a wide variety of ways. Hence, any form of protection on "data" ought to be approximate and ambiguous, unlike protection on physical objects.

Of course, the point of law is to be enforceable - and the current way people think of enforcing copyright is not enforceable. This means the ideas behind copyright should be changed, doesn't make IP any less necessary.

Why is IP "necessary"? Ideas and works of art can be made profitable by holding either production or distribution until an up front payment is made. They can be made profitable with donations. They can be made profitable with subsidies. They can be made profitable by merchandizing physical representations. Why is IP "the answer"? I have not seen any reasonable argument that could not be resolved otherwise or does not involve disproportionate returns on investment.

When IP was originally conceived, the Internet did not exist and thus many of the ways in which ideas can now be monetized did not exist. Back in the 30s, if you made music and wanted to tell the world about it, your options were very limited. If you wanted to make money from it, you certainly could not do it on your own - you had to go through many hoops and at each step people would have ripped you off if they could. IP back then was easy to justify. But now? An artist can record a song, publish it on the Internet and get thousands of listens within days and an unerasable recognition of his or her work in the community. Setting up an infrastructure for people to pay him or her to produce more songs is trivial and immune to piracy. A donations model can also be made extremely easy by the Internet - easier than it could ever have been before, and instantaneous too. If you want to make a t-shirt of your band, you can do it within a couple minutes and reap benefits in an extremely short time. That, also, never was possible to that extent before.

I would say that IP didn't make sense for a long time, times changed, it made sense, times are changing, now it doesn't anymore. It's easy to think that IP is justified since we've never known any alternative and that there are some obvious arguments for it. However, I don't think these arguments are nearly as strong as you think they are and many of them are effectively outdated.
 
We went over this, and amazingly, I feel you refute this point later in your post - the firm can provide goods that the pirates cannot, or adopt business models that garner profit even at lower (or even zero) prices. Your argument seems to be that they shouldn't have to change their business model.

Again, you refute your first point with your second. In your first point, you argue that lower marginal costs will put firms out of business, then you argue that firms can make profits despite this.

You constantly amaze me with your simplistic view of not only life but economist. Considering that you for some reason attach yourself to the Austrian school who teaches that you can't even model economic concepts because things are more complex, it's simply amazing how you can't read past literal words and can't comprehend anything else.

The only reason firms can initially provide goods that pirates cannot is due the fact that the pirates don't have their hands on the creative work yet. Once that is done, the firm has no advantages over it.

There are many models that legal firms can adopt that many many people can use, whether it be "pay 20 dollars and you can download as many songs as you want" models. Will people still pirate? Sure. But will many people prefer this legal option? Yes - assuming that the quality/service they offer is good. But this model, again, is only possible under IP model again anyway.

It does not contradict. The only thing I am saying is that within the current business model of many firms, this is the case, and this is why they are against piracy so much. This is why copyright is enforced in such a fruitless manner. My second point is that firms should find a better business model, mostly because the current model is again, outdated. As we have it now, copyright is used to protect outdated models - which then can be interpreted as a bottleneck for innovation. However, this doesn't mean copyright itself is bad, it just means that copyright has failed to update with technology, along with business models. that's the issue, not the idea of a copyright itself.

When costs are fixed, it makes sense for you to recover them. It also makes sense for you to recover an additional percentage of the investment in order to motivate the production. But as soon as you recover them, it makes no sense to sell at any higher than marginal costs (i.e. zero). Basically, Windows XP sure as fuck should be free by now.

Your concern about fixed costs certainly is reasonable, but at best it only justifies very, very limited copyright. If copyright is deemed necessary, in any case, it should not extend past the recovery of the fixed costs plus a fixed percentage (for motivation's sake). To grant any more protection is lunacy and allows disproportionate returns on investment. Also notice that under such a law, copyright infringement would never make anyone liable for more than the fixed costs (which are actual costs that could be verified, so they are much easier to justify) and that once the payment is made works would enter the public domain. People at large would also gain an incentive to pay for works: so that they would enter public domain and thus be more accessible.

Completely Agreed. I mentioned this in my post.

I'll put it bluntly: when the distribution cost is zero for everyone, to put a surcharge on distribution is lunacy. You just don't do it because you can't do it. Don't try to justify failing business models. For as long as marginal costs were not zero, a surcharge was easy to justify and easy to enforce. Now it isn't, so screw it and let's find something else.

Sure. I mentioned this as my second point. Despite this, copyright is what prevents the first point from happening to begin with.

Considering that zip files can have a certain amount of garbage at the end of them, it would be possible for someone to take a song protected by copyright, zip it and pad it in such a way that it becomes the binary representation of a prime number. Pad it enough and it would gain significance as one of the longest known prime numbers. Unzip it and you get a song. This has been done before for an "illegal" program, DeCSS, in order to ridicule the concept that one could ban or control the distribution of particular pieces of data. It also stands to reason that some random number generator could eventually generate a sequence of bits corresponding to a song. Should that be the case, you could produce a seed and a number n such that the nth bit of the sequence of bits produced by a RNG initialized with that seed marks the beginning of the song. Would there be laws prohibiting the distribution of that number? If I had a non-trivial algorithm that mapped an otherwise meaningful sequence of bits (e.g. 10101010101010) to a song, would that algorithm be illegal? To say that data is property is inane. Any sequence of bits can have several meanings, any sequence of bits can be produced in a wide variety of ways. Hence, any form of protection on "data" ought to be approximate and ambiguous, unlike protection on physical objects.

To me, that's just a technicality. It's almost saying something like "You might have written this book but you have no rights over it because you wrote the manuscript and I, the publisher put it on a book form". The point should be considered is the content.

Why is IP "necessary"? Ideas and works of art can be made profitable by holding either production or distribution until an up front payment is made. They can be made profitable with donations. They can be made profitable with subsidies. They can be made profitable by merchandizing physical representations. Why is IP "the answer"? I have not seen any reasonable argument that could not be resolved otherwise or does not involve disproportionate returns on investment.

Without IP anyone can merchandise physical representations. "Official" won't mean much when pirates (no longer hindered by "illegality") can put some effort in and compete with official companies and undercut them. This then goes back to my first point.

But now? An artist can record a song, publish it on the Internet and get thousands of listens within days and an unerasable recognition of his or her work in the community. Setting up an infrastructure for people to pay him or her to produce more songs is trivial and immune to piracy. A donations model can also be made extremely easy by the Internet - easier than it could ever have been before, and instantaneous too. If you want to make a t-shirt of your band, you can do it within a couple minutes and reap benefits in an extremely short time. That, also, never was possible to that extent before.

What about people like me, who hold no particular loyalty except for the quality of the music? I'm definitely not going to pay an artist who might suck the next album, for one. I presume that this is the case with a majority of listeners. The point is that you are turning all musicians and such into an untaxable public good (since they can't sell anything, they're not a firm anyway). Public goods tend to have certain problems such as being underfunded. I somehow doubt artists will be able to receive enough from donations to cover costs, and i doubt artists enjoy such uncertainity.

For the T Shirt issue - see Reason #1. How do you know a site is official, when I can register the name of the band beforehand, and just mirror the content on the official site, make a better site and steal donations/music? Without IP, how do you protect artists from this?
 
The only reason firms can initially provide goods that pirates cannot is due the fact that the pirates don't have their hands on the creative work yet. Once that is done, the firm has no advantages over it.

So first-to-market advantage doesn't exist, or is irrelevant, is that what you're saying? Without IP, and assuming there are no breaches of contract, the firm will always have the first-to-market advantage.

There are many models that legal firms can adopt that many many people can use, whether it be "pay 20 dollars and you can download as many songs as you want" models. Will people still pirate? Sure. But will many people prefer this legal option? Yes - assuming that the quality/service they offer is good. But this model, again, is only possible under IP model again anyway.

Untrue...the whole point of these services is to provide an incentive for consumers to pay a cost over zero. IP is not needed to deny access to a particular server, where data can only be streamed, for instance. Firms that deal in infinitely reproducible products need to sell products that cannot be put under the direct control of users without payment.

It does not contradict. The only thing I am saying is that within the current business model of many firms, this is the case, and this is why they are against piracy so much. This is why copyright is enforced in such a fruitless manner. My second point is that firms should find a better business model, mostly because the current model is again, outdated. As we have it now, copyright is used to protect outdated models - which then can be interpreted as a bottleneck for innovation.

Essentially, you undermine the economic case for copyright, then state that they're still neccesary. Of course, I'm sure you will attempt to obfuscate the issue by painting it as "simplistic analysis"...but only because it does not take anything more than that to see the flaws in your analysis.

However, this doesn't mean copyright itself is bad, it just means that copyright has failed to update with technology, along with business models. that's the issue, not the idea of a copyright itself.

And again, I feel that copyright is inherently illegitimate from a natural law/rights theory standpoint - once a person buys a product, he should own the product, not some limited right to use it.

Without IP anyone can merchandise physical representations. "Official" won't mean much when pirates (no longer hindered by "illegality") can put some effort in and compete with official companies and undercut them. This then goes back to my first point.

People will not buy pirated merchandise of non-creators. Buying merchandise is an expression of loyalty to the creators, thus, merchandise buyers will either pay extra for "legit" merchandise, or not pay at all. Furthermore, the extent to which merchandise can be pirated en masse is extremely limited - not only must one perfectly reproduce, say, a band logo, but they have to invest money in actually producing shirts, AND sell a product for less that is more scarce than the official product. And this doesn't even get into things like wallpaper, toys, and other forms of merchandise.

What about people like me, who hold no particular loyalty except for the quality of the music? I'm definitely not going to pay an artist who might suck the next album, for one. I presume that this is the case with a majority of listeners.

This is wrong of course - the majority of American listeners buy music based on name value just as much as on quality. The lack of IP won't change people's consumption habits, methinks.

The point is that you are turning all musicians and such into an untaxable public good (since they can't sell anything, they're not a firm anyway). Public goods tend to have certain problems such as being underfunded.

This goes back to finding alternative means of raising revenue than simply selling the music itself.

I somehow doubt artists will be able to receive enough from donations to cover costs, and i doubt artists enjoy such uncertainity.

Donations + merchandising + touring (the latter two are more how artists make money even with IP).

For the T Shirt issue - see Reason #1. How do you know a site is official, when I can register the name of the band beforehand, and just mirror the content on the official site, make a better site and steal donations/music? Without IP, how do you protect artists from this?

Until the band puts out a statement that bandname.com is not the real site, please go to bandname.net? Yeah, pirates are really going to go to the trouble to pretend to be a band.
 
Brain, in regareds to your junk data argument, wouldn't that apply just as much to physical books we've had for years? You could just put in a bunch of junk at the end, but that wouldn't change that the book was still stolen.

IP isn't just something I'd associate with the RIAA and fat cat suits. I absolutely detest the way things are set up now. The IP should however belong to the artists. If they have created something, they should be the ones who profit from it. Their creation should not be taken by someone else and sold with no reimbursements made to the original creator.

As far as
People will not buy pirated merchandise of non-creators. Buying merchandise is an expression of loyalty to the creators, thus, merchandise buyers will either pay extra for "legit" merchandise, or not pay at all. Furthermore, the extent to which merchandise can be pirated en masse is extremely limited - not only must one perfectly reproduce, say, a band logo, but they have to invest money in actually producing shirts, AND sell a product for less that is more scarce than the official product. And this doesn't even get into things like wallpaper, toys, and other forms of merchandise.
Until the band puts out a statement that bandname.com is not the real site, please go to bandname.net? Yeah, pirates are really going to go to the trouble to pretend to be a band.
You should visit China. It's a nice place.

---

As far as sharing goes, I really think that if we took the Steam model and add the ability to transfer items from one account to another (you lose the product, the person you sent it to gains it), we'd have a very good digital rights management product. For those who don't use it, Steam allows you to buy something with your account and tie it to that account. You are then able to download it as many times as you want onto as many computers as you want. You can access it by merely logging in. You can only be logged into one computer at a time obviously. The last computer you logged on can also access the files offline (I'm not sure how they do this) so if you have no net access you don't lose access to your product. You can also buy some retail products, add the key, and get the same functionality for it. I actually prefer a game on Steam to a game without any DRM whatsoever because Steam makes everything more accessible for me. I can go to any computer at school and download Steam and use it to retrieve my product. All it needs is the ability to sell/buy used files and it would be perfect. Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon because that's the main draw of Steam to Publishers right now who are already pissing off retailers by moving to digital distribution.

I really wish iTunes worked in this way. I just went through hell trying to transfer my things from my old hard drive to my new one thinking it was as simple as this.
 
How does this really differ practically from pirating? All I'd have to do is ensure I had a physical copy on my machine, then transfer my account to someone...obviously it wouldn't be as efficient as torrents, but it would still permit sharing of software.

I think the main draw of Steam > pirating is the interactivity and community aspects, similar to how XBox Live is a paid service (btw, XBox360 games are easily pirated, but then consoles are different because consoles which allow easy pirating sell more than consoles which don't)

Also, third world countries have significantly reduced access to "legit" merchandise (less computer access, less money - they may not be willing to buy a t-shirt at 20, but are willing to buy it at 5).
 
So first-to-market advantage doesn't exist, or is irrelevant, is that what you're saying? Without IP, and assuming there are no breaches of contract, the firm will always have the first-to-market advantage.

How does first to market advantage actually exist when you can instantly duplicate and distribute works? Hell, it already doesn't work. Look at the instances of leaked copies of recordings/movies/books being released before the official? So no, the firm will not always have first to market, and in the cases where they do it can literally be reduced to minutes.

Untrue...the whole point of these services is to provide an incentive for consumers to pay a cost over zero. IP is not needed to deny access to a particular server, where data can only be streamed, for instance. Firms that deal in infinitely reproducible products need to sell products that cannot be put under the direct control of users without payment.
Sounds to me like you are advocating DRM. Which tends to be broken fairly quickly. There are systems in place that work well for games which require access to a central server for multi player, but this is a pretty narrow area of coverage. How well does it apply to music and movies?

And again, I feel that copyright is inherently illegitimate from a natural law/rights theory standpoint - once a person buys a product, he should own the product, not some limited right to use it.
Eh, OK. Sounds like you just want free stuff, but whatever.

People will not buy pirated merchandise of non-creators. Buying merchandise is an expression of loyalty to the creators, thus, merchandise buyers will either pay extra for "legit" merchandise, or not pay at all.
Are you kidding me? People will buy whatever is cheaper (and has a respectable level of quality). If no one can tell the difference between the real thing and the "fake" no one is going to dumb enough to buy the fake. It's naive to think they will.

Furthermore, the extent to which merchandise can be pirated en masse is extremely limited - not only must one perfectly reproduce, say, a band logo, but they have to invest money in actually producing shirts, AND sell a product for less that is more scarce than the official product. And this doesn't even get into things like wallpaper, toys, and other forms of merchandise.
Um. Considering that selling a good of the same quality for less money will actually allow you to completely supplant the "official" version I would certainly expect it to happen. I mean, hell, even with the laws we have now (and the penalties associated) people/companies still produce counterfeits. I'm just really not sure why you think that without protections companies won't pop up with the express purpose of doing high quality knock offs, especially when you consider that since they will have to own NONE of the IP and will have to pay NO licensing fees.

Do you think the major record labels own T-Shirt manufacturing plants? No. So what happens is whatever company in china they outsource to simply hires a graphical artist and creates knock offs. No licensing fees, yay!

This is wrong of course - the majority of American listeners buy music based on name value just as much as on quality. The lack of IP won't change people's consumption habits, methinks.
It will when no one is producing anything worthwhile.

This goes back to finding alternative means of raising revenue than simply selling the music itself.

Donations + merchandising + touring (the latter two are more how artists make money even with IP).
Donations. Heh. Yeah, no.

Mechandising? Already mechandising product manufactures in place and with the infratructure to do that bit themselves. Any now they just don't have to share the profits. So, again no.

Touring. Yes, still money to be made here. In fact live performances will probably be about the only way to actually make money and to fund future recordings. The idea of a studio band goes out of the window, though.

Until the band puts out a statement that bandname.com is not the real site, please go to bandname.net? Yeah, pirates are really going to go to the trouble to pretend to be a band.
Yeah, they are. If there is money involved. I've got people pretending to be banks trying to send me emails all day long. And people pretending to be sons of disposed leaders of small african countries with huge sums of money for me, if only I will put up for lawyers fees.

It take all of a few minutes to automate downloading every linked page/file on a website and setting up a mirror. And another few minutes to put up "No, we're the real thing!".
 
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