Pokemon Philosophy: Is abusing the RNG cheating?

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Question 1: Is it in the game?

If Yes: It's Legal.

Is it moral?

Your mileage may vary.

For example, when I was trying to beat Stadium 1 and 2, I always multiplied vitamins and maxed out my pokemon before entering them. This was a legal exploit in RB and I used it to my advantage. If Gamefreak can't get their coding straight and I don't mind my "Hall of Fame" looking screwed up, it hardly matters. The game has no feelings or emotions, it is the sum of its code.

If its code allows for an otherwise "illegal" action, they should have coded better. Shigeru Miyamoto already has your $34.99, his intent is solely for you to buy his products.
 
Deck Knight, I liked your post until you mentioned Miyamoto. He doesn't have anything to do with the pokemon games. >:C
 
Riverside said:
The game allow you (via Pokesav) to have 252 EVs 31 IVs pokemon, I guess it's not cheating, no way.
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Pokesav also lets all ur stats be 999 and gives it any move and ability it wants... inclueding tonnes u couldnt get legit... pretty sure thats cheating.

Deck Knight said:
Question 1: Is it in the game?

If Yes: It's Legal.

Is it moral?

Your mileage may vary.
Click to expand...

I think that really sums it up... yes its legal, because you could have achieved the same things 'randomly'.

But it feels like cheating because of using outside information (or programs).


Like those walkthrough books you could buy from old video games that told you where all the secrets were. Other kids used to call that cheating all the time, simply because you, yourself, didnt do the work of finding/solving the secrets. I think thats exactly how this is
 
Did anyone read the OP?

The topic of this thread is "RNG abuse, is it cheating".

My point boiled down is "AR and RNG abuse (and yes any calculators/guides if you want to go there, but that's off topic) both require the use of external devices. Therefore if AR is "cheating" then RNG abuse is "cheating".

In today's battling arena you have to have pokes with at least near flawless stats just to be competitive at all, so I'm not saying either one is wrong, evil or whatever slur you want to call it. I'm just saying if you want to call AR "cheating" then you should probably call RNG abuse "cheating" because while they use different methods, they both use non-sanctioned external devices to acheive the exact same goal (shiny or flawless IV pokes, not L1 Jirachis). I like RNG. It is great. No argument about that. That is not what this thread is about. This thread is about is it "cheating" or is it not.

And about the Bulldozer/quick shortcut, apple/orange, #3/#16 arguments. Yes, AR is a bulldozer/apple/#3 and RNG is a quick shortcut/orange/#16, but they're both shortcuts/fruit/numbers. Are they different. Yes. RNG does not involve plugging a little black plastic thingy into your DS and physically changing the flow of electricity between the game and cartridge. But they both use non-sanctioned external devices to acheive a goal you could never achieve without them (flawless IV/shiny pokes quicker than you could breed for them). It's not that they are exactly the same. Pokesav and AR are different, but nobody would argue that they one is cheating and the other is not.

This post is already way too long.

My vote: it's cheating, but who cares. Shigeru's already got my cash!

;D XD

and BTW, riverside's post was on topic you just didn't get it.
 
Example:

I have a Shuca Berry Heatran out and my opponent has a Gliscor, and both has taken some prior damage. I want to see if I want to take an EQ from Gliscor and KO it back, but I'm using a DS with no access to computer. Therefore, I find a calculator nearby and plug in the numbers to find out whether I can survive Gliscor and whether I can do enough damage back to KO it. Is this cheating because I used a non-sanctioned external device? Keep in mind there is an alternative - I've simply played with Heatran for so long that I practically memorized the Heatran vs Gliscor scenario to know the damage.
 
For the record, I don't actually own a DS, I've never done any of those crazy time-consuming things you people do. I just play on Shoddy.

Regarding the "it took us a really fucking long time to figure it out" argument: I'm pretty sure I could spend less than an hour read big walls of text and be able to start churning out exceptionally IV'd Pokemon.

RNG abuse seems to be a lot like wavedashing in Super Smash Bros Melee, if you ask me. The more experienced players (the "pros") abuse it to its fullest and don't think twice about it. But the "scrubs" might have a problem with players abusing what they think is a glitch to give themselves an advantage (I'm not going to go into whether or not wavedashing was intended to be in Melee). I completely support wavedashing, though. Well, not so much "support" as "not mind", since I just do it instinctively.

GameFAQs is notorious for its crappiness. Needless to say, Smogon is much more educated in Pokemon than they are. It's natural for the more educated people to think differently from those who don't see the whole picture.

Also, regarding the "intention drum", which Jumpman mentioned: Nintendo did not intend for us to reset our games countless times, no. But did they know we would? Of course, anyone who wanted an advantage comptetetively would, and they knew it. Did they intend for us to tear apart the RNG? Of course not. But deep down, do you think they expected us to? Remember that Nintendo ignores "hardcore" gamers for the most part.

Lastly, regarding the whole debate over "random number generator" and "number generator": did Nintendo want it to be a RNG? Yep. Therefore, it should be treated as a RNG.
Wikipedia said:
In computing, a hardware random number generator is an apparatus that generates random numbers from a physical process. Such devices are often based on microscopic phenomena such as thermal noise or the photoelectric effect or other quantum phenomena.
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Do you guys think the DS uses any of these for randomly generating numbers? I don't.

Also, it would not really be plausible for the DS to use volume levels for its RNG, that would drain the battery.
 
The 198 said:
Pokesav also lets all ur stats be 999 and gives it any move and ability it wants... inclueding tonnes u couldnt get legit... pretty sure thats cheating.
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The game programation allows you to that (with pokesav you cant get 2 traits at the same time for example of what the programation DONT allow you to do, so that's cheating)

According to some post above it isnt cheating, isnt my fault the game is designed like that anyway :3
 
Personally, I don't view it as cheating.

But as for you "it's in the game.." folks..

What if by some freakish chance MissingNo. and other glitches were to appear in HGSS/Gen V/whatever, and these glitches were usable in WiFi? Would/Should they be allowed? They were in the game without the use of external devices.

GameFreak certainly wouldn't intend for glitch Pokemon to exist, but then again they didn't want their PRNG cracked open either. IVs and EVs have in-game hints (Effort Ribbon/Vitamins and IV hints/breeders). But secret ID? That's meant to be secret. The PRNG moreso.
 
RNG abuse is cheating. However, I don't really understand how the RNG works in wifi-battles, or exactly how it seeds during battle. Or really how to manipulate it. Until those issues are solved, then I don't think we can do much about it.

Obviously it is not cheating if you are only referring to pokemon capture.

Also, Deck Knight. This is really not the place for morality.
 
I can't seem to equate "PRNG abuse" with Action Replay. (It's not a true RNG so I won't call it a RNG.)

With Action Replay, you may know what that AR device does to manipulate code, but at the end of the day you still need that device in order to manipulate the code. With PRNG abuse, the only thing you absolutely "need," depending on what exactly you're doing, is a clock--a fucking clock! That shouldn't be too much to ask for anyone that plays Pokemon!

'What about the RNG Reporter?'

Okay, you need a computer, too. [/sarcasm]

Seriously, the RNG Reporter is just a bunch of calculators bundled into one program! We could use the formulas that the RNG Reporter uses to find seeds/spreads ourselves, but it's horribly inefficient to do it that way (especially when you have to start using the Mersenne twister) so we just use the program, but you don't actually "need" it. If you object to using it, then you should object to using IV and damage calculators, too; when you get down to it, they're all just calculators.

'We weren't meant to crack the RNG.'

Oh, let's not go down that road. Please. If you argue that the PRNG was supposed to remain hidden, then you also have to argue that other things in the game are supposed to stay hidden such as IVs, EVs, and how damage is calculated. I shouldn't have to tell you how ridiculous that sounds to any competitive player.

'It feels dirty manipulating the RNG.'

You're stopping the PRNG at certain points in time, just like you always do whenever you play the game normally, only you have a goal in mind. If you still think that's "dirty," then I don't know what else to tell you.
 
nintendo said themselves that EVs and IVs were put into pokemon to be used, so why not use them? and EVs and IVs were put into the games, like RNG, so if EVs and IVs aren't cheating, why should altering the RNG be?
 
Pretty much all games has a RNG like formula. If you can figure out the coding of the game, you can use it to your advantage. For example, FF VII has a duplicate item. So in the realm of gaming, it is legal because programmer will not be able to fix all of the programing problem. It just take away the fun of chance in the game.
 
CardsOfTheHeart said:
'We weren't meant to crack the RNG.'

Oh, let's not go down that road. Please. If you argue that the PRNG was supposed to remain hidden, then you also have to argue that other things in the game are supposed to stay hidden such as IVs, EVs, and how damage is calculated. I shouldn't have to tell you how ridiculous that sounds to any competitive player.
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(Warning: post contains facts supported by opinions)

There's more than one level of gaming. There's casual gaming, people who beat the Elite Four and call it a day. There's the "normal" gamers, who complete their Pokedex, dabble in Wifi, and quit. And then there's us. We go beyond all of that. The first two types of gamers were not "meant" to know about "IVs, EVs, and how damage is calculated." But Nintendo realizes that the hardcore would figure that out. I personally believe Nintendo intended for us to know every single thing about EVs, etc. But did Nintendo expect the hardcore gamers to crack the foundation of the game, the random number ganerator?
 
I said it once, and I'll say it again: If the RNG abusing is considered cheating because "it uses an outside device", then you should not play the game, since your mind is a device outside the game. Also, all strategy movesets, EVs, IVs, BSTs... ALL of those should be banned since you learned about them from another human, an "outside device" in itself. If infact this is true, then Humans should be banned from Wifi and all competitive battling. Will that ever happen? NEVER!

There has not yet been a pokemon found with a good nature, perfect IV's and shiny without hacking. You might find one or two of those (good nature, good IVs, shiny), or OCCASIONALLY all three (like Lorak's Kangaskhan), but even with the random number generator, it still is a problem finding pure gold in a pokemon game! It just helps you find silver, so as to help you along, because at the end of the day, pokemon is ment for having fun (actually, trading was the idea that started it all!).
 
wavedash said:
(Warning: post contains facts supported by opinions)

There's more than one level of gaming. There's casual gaming, people who beat the Elite Four and call it a day. There's the "normal" gamers, who complete their Pokedex, dabble in Wifi, and quit. And then there's us. We go beyond all of that. The first two types of gamers were not "meant" to know about "IVs, EVs, and how damage is calculated." But Nintendo realizes that the hardcore would figure that out. I personally believe Nintendo intended for us to know every single thing about EVs, etc. But did Nintendo expect the hardcore gamers to crack the foundation of the game, the random number ganerator?
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Why wouldn't they expect it? Given enough time and effort, anyone could have cracked it. To not expect the PRNG of a game this popular to be cracked would be foolish.
 
CardsOfTheHeart said:
Why wouldn't they expect it? Given enough time and effort, anyone could have cracked it. To not expect the PRNG of a game this popular to be cracked would be foolish.
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Well, first off, Nintendo is quite foolish. The only time they've acknowledged hardcore gamers recently that I can recall is with the VGC. But aside from that, I doubt Nintendo even thought about the RNG much. They found an (pre-existing?) algorithm, implemented it, and went on to something else.
 
Honestly, I don't think RNG abuse is cheating, but rather discouraging. I would prefer to have a 25+/25+/25+/25+/25+/25+ non-RNG abused pokemon than an RNG abused one because RNG is just a matter of exploiting numbers to get the pokemon you want(correct me if I'm wrong), and it DOES require an external device(s) to get the pokemon you want. Anything is possible on a computer nowadays and I think RNG abuse is just finding random numbers that wouldn't ordinarily occur from a computer to get a certain pokemon. And it's true, people might as well Pokesav because you are basically generating out of the ordinary "near perfect" pokemon. Sooner or later, there's going to be a program to get hex-flawless spreads that everyone will be using. I REALLY hope that there is not a method of RNG abusing in HG/SS because pokemon just isn't the same anymore. Since when was catching shinies and flawless pokemon just a matter of generating random numbers on a computer.The right way to play pokemon is to Soft Reset and Chain like people did in the old days. In my opinion a chained shiny is much better than an RNG abused shiny...Average pokemon players are able to open up a box and get playing like the game is meant to play. RNG abuse is just like figuring out a glitch in the game, which is kind of like cheating. Such as in games like Halo where you super-jump or something for people not to shoot you.(just an example).
 
BoozeVGC said:
Honestly, I don't think RNG abuse is cheating, but rather discouraging. I would prefer to have a 25+/25+/25+/25+/25+/25+ non-RNG abused pokemon than an RNG abused one because RNG is just a matter of exploiting numbers to get the pokemon you want(correct me if I'm wrong), and it DOES require an external device(s) to get the pokemon you want.
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Well, your preferences are your own, but saving in front of a legendary and resetting until you get what you want is also RNG abuse. You're still exploiting the fact that the pokemon is generated right when you talk to it, rather than being generated as soon as you start a file.

As for requiring an external device, all of the calculations that that program does can be done by hand. It would suck, but it can be done. Does paper and pencil count as an external device? What about a calculator? If your answer to either of these questions is "no", what makes the computer program so different?

Anything is possible on a computer nowadays and I think RNG abuse is just finding random numbers that wouldn't ordinarily occur from a computer to get a certain pokemon.
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Er, no, they'd occur ordinarily. This method can only produce Pokemon that the PRNG can legitimately generate, because the PRNG is legitimately generating them. All you're doing is setting things up so that said generation occurs when you want it to, rather than constantly soft resetting and hoping that said generation occurs when you want it to.

And it's true, people might as well Pokesav because you are basically generating out of the ordinary "near perfect" pokemon. Sooner or later, there's going to be a program to get hex-flawless spreads that everyone will be using.
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Again, resetting for high IVs also generates out-of-the-ordinary Pokemon. Also, IIRC, the current method of RNG abuse can already give hex-flawless spreads.

RNG abuse is just like figuring out a glitch in the game, which is kind of like cheating. Such as in games like Halo where you super-jump or something for people not to shoot you.(just an example).
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Using glitches in competitive games is fairly standard. While some glitches are banned in competitive play, this only occurs when they are broken, not because they are glitches. This is why the IC freeze glitch is banned in SSBM, but Ness's trapboxes are not.

Of course, PRNG abuse isn't even a glitch. It is painfully obvious that Game Freak deliberately used a PRNG rather than a true RNG, which is feasible, so saying that this is not how the game is supposed to work is foolishness.


Anyways, in conclusion, this is no less RNG abuse than soft resetting for good IVs/shinies. Both are methods to get the right timing to get the Pokemon you're looking for. One just happens to have a much higher success rate. That's all.
 
I always felt that ev training/iv breeding was the abuse of a game mechanic. I thought that game freak intended for your ev's to be random, they just figured nobody would realize what was happening, when after your machop faced 50 zubats, his speed stat went up alot.
 
Mr.Dreavus said:
I always felt that ev training/iv breeding was the abuse of a game mechanic. I thought that game freak intended for your ev's to be random, they just figured nobody would realize what was happening, when after your machop faced 50 zubats, his speed stat went up alot.
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Nope:
http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/6...atinum-Particle-Physics-Bridges-And-More.html

G4: Many people erroneously think that Pokemon games are just for children, but there are many complex features in the game like IVs, EV training, Hidden Power, and more. How did these features come about?

JM: The reason why we put things like IVs and EVs into the game is because we wanted to give players that are really into Pokemon battles much more to work with and much more to enjoy. We have a team that's dedicated to constantly enhancing and evolving the battle system. They have so many ideas and such a willingness to enhance the game. They're always thinking of ways to make battles more interesting. One example from this generation is that they separated moves into physical attacks and special attacks, which adds more versatility and strategy to both offense and defense. They always listen to player feedback and they battle a lot themselves. This team is the reason why Pokemon has such a rich battle system that's always evolving.

G4: Some G4 readers dismiss Pokemon as being just for kids. Do you have a message for them? Anything that might attract them to the game?

TK: I recommend that your readers try Battle Frontier in Pokemon Platinum. Although you can battle trainers and wild Pokemon in the storyline, Battle Frontier is the ultimate place for battling -- the place where people can enjoy the complexity of battles the most. One of the more complex parts of the game is raising Pokemon for battling, like you mentioned with IVs and EVs. Battle Frontier is the best place to enjoy that high level of battling and get the most out of the Pokemon you train.
Click to expand...
 
billymills said:
RNG abuse is cheating. However, I don't really understand how the RNG works in wifi-battles, or exactly how it seeds during battle. Or really how to manipulate it. Until those issues are solved, then I don't think we can do much about it.

Obviously it is not cheating if you are only referring to pokemon capture.

Also, Deck Knight. This is really not the place for morality.
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Indeed billy, I see your point. A discussion that revolves around whether something is cheating or not clearly has no moral element to it.

Arguing about legality is pointless in this topic. Any pokemon obtained through RNG abuse will be legitimate in a tournament. Therefore the argument in this topic is primarily whether the "unfair" advantage given to people who've taken the time to study the game's internal coding mechanisms is moral or immoral. Your argument that RNG abuse is cheating is a moral argument, not a legal one. You are, to put it bluntly, a scrub in this matter. You may as well be arguing Seismic Toss Blissey is cheating because it can't be obtained without someone possessing access to Emerald, and is thus harder to obtain and indeed, impossible, for someone confined to DPP. RNG abuse is actually less egregious than Seismic Toss Blissey because anyone who invests the time can make use of it within the confines of DPP itself.

Just like I can't be assed to spend hours breeding (or playing for that matter, I'm too engrossed in other games right now), I don't begrudge someone who spent 20 hours breeding when their pokemon kicks my pokemon into the ground, statistically.

Never mind calling it RNG "abuse" is itself inaccurate, because the RNG can be "abused" indefinitely with no system corruption or damage. You're not raping your wife, you're catching her in a good mood.
 
petrie911 said:
As for requiring an external device, all of the calculations that that program does can be done by hand. It would suck, but it can be done.
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Ha! XD I'd really like to see anyone do that!

You know I bet you can actually get hex flawless pokes by just tilting the cartridge like we used to do in the old days with N64 games too! I have no idea how you would do it, but I bet theres a way to get AR results without an AR. XD Does anybody remember slowly pulling up the Left side of the cartridge to get past Mido without a sword or shield in Ocarina of Time? Or maybe you could poke a thin paperclip down there while your encountering a wild pokemon or something? Back in the day we used to get all kinds of crazy results by cart-tilting and screwing with the power supply on 64 games and whatnot. I remember one time we got all our cars to fly in some "Beetle Adventure Racing" game. That was good stuff!

You might call that rediculous (I would call RNGing with only pencil and paper rediculous), but I'm pretty sure that since it worked in the past it could work (somehow) in this case. Just because no one has taken the time to figure it out doesn't mean it can't be perfected.

The point is...
  • AR is an external used device to get unusual results that you could get without it, just much faster
  • PRNG Reporter is an external device used to get unusual results that you could get without it, just much faster
  • Pokesav is an external device used to get unusual results that you could get without it, just much faster
Still sounds the same to me. If one's a cheat, the other's a cheat.

Please remember, I'm not trying to say PRNG is "bad". I'm just trying to say it's just like AR.

[edit]

man, I'd better stop posting about this, Mike's probably going to read it... =0
 
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