Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

[Rysta]

I'm saddened about how low of tier Luigi is, ever since the first time I used him, no matter who I used, I couldn't win as much as I did with Luigi, even with plenty of practise with other characters.
Though the coin punch isn't very amusing since it takes a while to recover but by pressing the same buttons you can do a much more powerful one xD. The >2 attack which is a karate stab thingy is a very powerful charge move that doesn't take long, the >1 attack can be used which takes longer and is slightly less powerful but can get running enemies.

The smash attack doesn't look amusing but with the >2 attack, putting the opponents to sleep is lethal. After using the smash, most sleeping opponents will be dead from one of those attacks even from 0% since the damage from the smash really helps, even though it doesn't do much, it still does enough, the sleeping usually lasts long enough to get 3KOs, which I usually get if I get the smash of near all of my opponents.

At least he isn't too low...

 

[Steeler]

zelda has like NO approach at all. every move she has is punishable. her grab sucks. din's fire is not very good, it's easily avoided.

zelda is bad, i think she's worse than the tier list projects her.

also i predict PT will be top of mid tier eventually. or even bottom of high if enough people pick him up. but he's not a very friendly pick up and play character so he'll always be lower than he should be. imo. ;)

 

[DiamondDust]

In my opinion, Zelda is one of the most powerful characters in the game if played skillfully. A lot of the attacks have crazy knock-back including two attacks that can hit critically. And she can deflect projectiles which is a plus. The one thing that I think puts her down is her recovery b/c it seems very unreliable.

Hey gais, i don't know if anyone remembers me, dwc.

ANYWAYS, you obviously have no idea about smash.
Most powerful? i don't think that having "power" makes a character good bar ganond- oh wait ganondorf sucks non-existant rob dick, i almost forgot.

Hit critically? what is this nonsense. her sweetspot for her fair/bair has been annihilated. her attacks are predictable, her approach is impossible, and while approaches aren't necessary in brawl, she really doesn't have any good camping options because dins fire doesn't work too well.

Not even a good player playing a decent player will win with zelda, period.

also i predict PT will be top of mid tier eventually. or even bottom of high if enough people pick him up. but he's not a very friendly pick up and play character so he'll always be lower than he should be. imo. ;)

did you know that he is at the very very bottom of the japan tier list? interesting, no?
he is in last place in tiers
really?
yes.
I don't know why, to be honest.

 

[Teh_1337ness]

zelda has like NO approach at all. every move she has is punishable. her grab sucks. din's fire is not very good, it's easily avoided.

zelda is bad, i think she's worse than the tier list projects her.

also i predict PT will be top of mid tier eventually. or even bottom of high if enough people pick him up. but he's not a very friendly pick up and play character so he'll always be lower than he should be. imo. ;)

^This is all that needs to be said about why Zelda is so bad.
I'm not sure how high PT can get. It's been a while since I played SSBB, but charizard was too slow and didn't have amazing close range options. Bulbasaur sucks because his recovery sucks. Edgehog just kills him.
Squirtle IMO is the best of the three. He's got the most options because most of his moves are pretty fast. But he is pretty light.

Hey gais, i don't know if anyone remembers me, dwc.

did you know that he is at the very very bottom of the japan tier list? interesting, no?
he is in last place in tiers
really?
yes.
I don't know why, to be honest.

The Japanese have a whole different metagame then the Americans do. The Japanese tend to play a whole lot more carefully (ugh, sometimes whole matches are just camping wars) and we play flashier. At least, that's what I remember.

 

[DiamondDust]

^This is all that needs to be said about why Zelda is so bad.
I'm not sure how high PT can get. It's been a while since I played SSBB, but charizard was too slow and didn't have amazing close range options. Bulbasaur sucks because his recovery sucks. Edgehog just kills him.
Squirtle IMO is the best of the three. He's got the most options because most of his moves are pretty fast. But he is pretty light.
Erm, actually, charizard isn't too slow. slowness doesn't bring down a character as much as it did in melee, and in some cases, it doesn't at all. close range options? as far as i know, he can't hit you from long range either... I played PT for a little while and found that his dtilt is amazing for spacing and that charizard is only brought down by having to switch and being weakened by being out for too long.
bulbasaur does suck, I agree, but it is more than his recovery. his moves just fall short.
squirtle and charizard are pretty tied for me. squirtle is fast, but that doesn't mean anything. falcon is pretty fast, after all... his aerial capabilities are great but he can't do much on the ground.



The Japanese have a whole different metagame then the Americans do. The Japanese tend to play a whole lot more carefully (ugh, sometimes whole matches are just camping wars) and we play flashier. At least, that's what I remember.
sorry but that's wrong. they play an extremely aggressive/technical game, while doing what isai does (dont get hit, of course), but let us not digress into arguing how a race of people play a video game.

steeler, I don't see PT going any higher at this point, unfortunately.

 

[Ashitaka]

Hey gais, i don't know if anyone remembers me, dwc.

ANYWAYS, you obviously have no idea about smash.
Most powerful? i don't think that having "power" makes a character good bar ganond- oh wait ganondorf sucks non-existant rob dick, i almost forgot.

Hit critically? what is this nonsense. her sweetspot for her fair/bair has been annihilated. her attacks are predictable, her approach is impossible, and while approaches aren't necessary in brawl, she really doesn't have any good camping options because dins fire doesn't work too well.

Not even a good player playing a decent player will win with zelda, period.

Dude, its just my opinion on Zelda, no need to get pissy at me.

About PT though, I think ivysaur is the best out the the three. Most of his attacks have fair range and damage. His bullet seed is really spam-able for quick damage and his grabs are the best.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Dude, its just my opinion on Zelda, no need to get pissy at me.

About PT though, I think ivysaur is the best out the the three. Most of his attacks have fair range and damage. His bullet seed is really spam-able for quick damage and his grabs are the best.

Ivysaur's grab is very punishable if it misses, though, do to lag. And Ivysaur's biggest problem is his awful recovery that gets destroyed by edgehogging. Even so, the Razor Leaf is a good projectile.

 

[viperGTS]

I hope not to start an argument or anything (hopefully i dont sound stupid either), but i believe that C. Falcon's recovery move is WAY better than wario's. But that's just me.

 

[TheMantyke]

I hope not to start an argument or anything (hopefully i dont sound stupid either), but i believe that C. Falcon's recovery move is WAY better than wario's. But that's just me.

Your right about one thing, wario's Up-B does suck. However, It's not too big a hinderance for wario since he can just jump off his bike for an amazingly high jump.

Also DWC, according to this thread, Ganondorf is at the bottom of the japanese tier list. PT's just hovering in the middle of low.

 

[got milk?]

Personally, i think Ness is a pretty good brawler too. His pk rocket and pk fire is far superior to Lucas'. Even though Ness is better statistically i still play as Lucas more often. WHY ARE THEY BEING RANKED THE BOTTOM OF MIDDLE TIER >=[

 

[Surf116]

Personally, i think Ness is a pretty good brawler too. His pk rocket and pk fire is far superior to Lucas'. Even though Ness is better statistically i still play as Lucas more often. WHY ARE THEY BEING RANKED THE BOTTOM OF MIDDLE TIER >=[

I like using Lucas better than Ness also. I think they are ranked that low due to their rather unreliable recoveries and the short ranges on their melee attacks.

 

[got milk?]

I like using Lucas better than Ness also. I think they are ranked that low due to their rather unreliable recoveries and the short ranges on their melee attacks.

I agree with the range on their melee attacks however, pk rocket isn't that hard to recover with much better than Ike's recoveries :)

 

[Ashitaka]

I agree with the range on their melee attacks however, pk rocket isn't that hard to recover with much better than Ike's recoveries :)

Ness and Lucas's pk rockets require some skill and concentration in order to get back onto the platform in tight situations, which makes it a harder recover. It also sucks b/c they are also very vulnerable after they shoot out their pk thunder. Ike's recovery isn't THAT bad. He lacks a good horizontal recovery, but his vertical recovery is pretty reliable.

 

[got milk?]

In my opinion if you want to win you require skill, and if you have skill it is very simple to get back onto the stage with pk rocket. Also it maybe extremely difficult but if used correctly surely Ike could use his >B to horizontally recover

 

[~Eon~]

i use lucas and i think im pretty good with him imo. I think lucas is better than ness because his pk thunder is better. Ness gets owned when trying to recover with a pikmin attached. Great knockback especially for messing with captian falcon/ganon/links recoverys. And he doesnt get molested by marth...as much....

Are there smogon tournys? Id love to join one, maybe have some lucas dittos with someone.

 

[got milk?]

I think im pretty good as lucas too :)

But i recently decided to experiment with the wiring of my gamecube controllers. 2 points for the person that guesses what happened next

I'd love to lucas ditto with you but GCCs are dead >=(

 

[UberMunch]

Your right about one thing, wario's Up-B does suck. However, It's not too big a hinderance for wario since he can just jump off his bike for an amazingly high jump.

Also DWC, according to this thread, Ganondorf is at the bottom of the japanese tier list. PT's just hovering in the middle of low.

This is the best discussion lately (japanese shit). I am not sure, but i thought that ganon wasn't actually the worst, and that they just moved him to his own "G" tier cause it was funny.

I think PT isn't as high over there because of the different playstyles of japanese versus north american. (i speculate that it is due to different cultural mindsets and customs that spawn the differences in national playstyles, but whatever blah blah blah).

Another interesting thing to note is how far the japanese have developed link(among other things). They have been able to utilize his strengths and try to work around his weaknesses (shit recovery). Its not like he is high tier or anything, but I think we could respectively learn a lot from eachother's brawling. I am personally fascinated with the differences between the japanese brawl scene and our own.

 

[Steeler]

i change my mind

pt is right below top tier

 

[got milk?]

I think PT isn't as high over there because of the different playstyles of japanese versus north american. (i speculate that it is due to different cultural mindsets and customs that spawn the differences in national playstyles, but whatever blah blah blah).

Another interesting thing to note is how far the japanese have developed link(among other things). They have been able to utilize his strengths and try to work around his weaknesses (shit recovery). Its not like he is high tier or anything, but I think we could respectively learn a lot from eachother's brawling. I am personally fascinated with the differences between the japanese brawl scene and our own.

Very interesting idea about how culture may affect the mindset of which you play brawl with. CHILLAX brawl is just a game even at professional level i don't think we need to have a deep philisophical discussion about it. Next we'll be discussing if brawl is linked to the lunar and solar eclipses :P

 

[~Eon~]

I think im pretty good as lucas too :)

But i recently decided to experiment with the wiring of my gamecube controllers. 2 points for the person that guesses what happened next

I'd love to lucas ditto with you but GCCs are dead >=(

I use the nunchucks O_O

 

[got milk?]

EWWWWWWW

 

[Mr.E]

Another interesting thing to note is how far the japanese have developed link(among other things). They have been able to utilize his strengths and try to work around his weaknesses (shit recovery). Its not like he is high tier or anything, but I think we could respectively learn a lot from eachother's brawling. I am personally fascinated with the differences between the japanese brawl scene and our own.

I think the most interesting thing is that Pit is top tier there, because of one their top players is a Pit, but he's only mid-tier in NA. Despite his potential, we simply don't have any notable Pit players here.

 

[HotGarbage]

Heh, that really is an anomaly. I see Pit as a pretty mediocre character myself.... I would sooner believe that this particular Pit player is extraordinarily talented when compared to his competition than that Pit himself has any kind of "untapped potential".

 

[Steeler]

Pit is a pretty good character. i play with KY on a regular basis. Pit doesn't have any huge weaknesses. he's got great damage racking, an annoyingly good ledge camp, a REALLY good shield, a versatile and difficult to gimp recovery on stages where he can pass under the platform with either his glide or his up b, decently disjointed hitboxes (and the ability to play defensively against characters that outrange him in that respect), and a good projectile plus TWO reflectors. Pit's a little short on KO moves but it's something you can easily work around with his defensive game and gimps (mirror shield gimps are a bitch).

 

[UberMunch]

I agree, Mr.E. I was just pointing one difference in our metagames, but there are so many. Pit is a really interesting example, i agree that he has some untapped potential.

But, there is some merit to the argument that he is so high on the tier list over there because one of the best players mains him. It is a similar situation here with m2k. Both in that that player personally bumps up the character's tourney wins (and therefore spot on the tier list), but also that he "advances" that characters metagame and inspires others to pick up that character.

Who knows, if the best player in NA was a PT (or any other lower tier character) main, maybe PT would be high tier?