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np: UU - Higher Ground
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I've been playing around with Houndoom a lot recently. I don't know if it's just because I've never used him before but he is really good in this metagame. STAB Dark Pulse is quite useful for taking on Uxie (who has become popular recently) and Slowbro while Fire Blast hits things hard. Even Chansey has a hard time walling Houndoom because Nasty Plotted LO Fire Blast 2HKOs (she has it even worse without Leftovers). Base 95 Speed is also quite nice because it outspeeds Roserade and Moltres who have become rather common.
The main problems for Houndoom are faster Pokemon with super-effective attacks and Milotic because she isn't hit SE by Dark Pulse. Usually if I Dark Pulse Milotic on the switch it brings her down to ~55%. I can get a free Nasty Plot as Milotic Recovers (because no one wants to be left with a 20% Milotic) then hit her for 70%+ as I get killed which opens up a hole in the other team for something like Azumarill. Even with no Attack EVs Sucker Punch is a nice choice in the last slot because it has a decent chance of OHKOing Dugtrio and can also take away the last few % of a Yanmega or Mismagius. This is why Sub LO Dugtrio is good. It stops your revenge killing from being foiled by Sucker Punch from Nidoking and Houndoom and also lets you get a free Substitute if lets say something is at 7% and you predict the Sucker Punch then use your own Sucker Punch to KO them the next turn. Free Subs are cool.
Scarf Rotom is pretty great. It has nice typing which allows it to serve as a pinch Yanmega and Swellow check and Scarfed Will-o-wisp is surprisingly effective. Oh yeah and it outspeeds Modest +1 Yanmega and Adamant +2 Torterra (although most Yanmega are smart and don't stay in against Rotom if they're only at +1). The abundance of Rotom inspired me to try out Pursuit over Nasty Plot on Houndoom (because the only times I have really used Nasty Plot are for Chansey and Milotic). If you manage to get a Dugtrio in against Rotom the Rotom is probably going to Will-o-wisp because it's afraid of Pursuit and Sucker Punch. Houndoom is immune to burns which is pretty cool and can Pursuit away Rotom so someone else can sweep. Dunno I guess that's pretty hardcore theorymon but it's cool when it works.
The main problems for Houndoom are faster Pokemon with super-effective attacks and Milotic because she isn't hit SE by Dark Pulse. Usually if I Dark Pulse Milotic on the switch it brings her down to ~55%. I can get a free Nasty Plot as Milotic Recovers (because no one wants to be left with a 20% Milotic) then hit her for 70%+ as I get killed which opens up a hole in the other team for something like Azumarill. Even with no Attack EVs Sucker Punch is a nice choice in the last slot because it has a decent chance of OHKOing Dugtrio and can also take away the last few % of a Yanmega or Mismagius. This is why Sub LO Dugtrio is good. It stops your revenge killing from being foiled by Sucker Punch from Nidoking and Houndoom and also lets you get a free Substitute if lets say something is at 7% and you predict the Sucker Punch then use your own Sucker Punch to KO them the next turn. Free Subs are cool.
Scarf Rotom is pretty great. It has nice typing which allows it to serve as a pinch Yanmega and Swellow check and Scarfed Will-o-wisp is surprisingly effective. Oh yeah and it outspeeds Modest +1 Yanmega and Adamant +2 Torterra (although most Yanmega are smart and don't stay in against Rotom if they're only at +1). The abundance of Rotom inspired me to try out Pursuit over Nasty Plot on Houndoom (because the only times I have really used Nasty Plot are for Chansey and Milotic). If you manage to get a Dugtrio in against Rotom the Rotom is probably going to Will-o-wisp because it's afraid of Pursuit and Sucker Punch. Houndoom is immune to burns which is pretty cool and can Pursuit away Rotom so someone else can sweep. Dunno I guess that's pretty hardcore theorymon but it's cool when it works.
The surge of Houndoom leads is rather odd. All they do is Sucker Punch my SashTrio for a decent chunk of damage then die horribly. In fact it is so predictable that I can occasionally Stealth Rock safely first, either way it is normally a losing battle for them and they are 'doom'ed from the start. I personally don't see what the appeal is.
I've barely seen any Yanmega leads so far, oddly enough. Not seen many Slowbros either. I guess everyone has a couple of oddballs like that.
I've barely seen any Yanmega leads so far, oddly enough. Not seen many Slowbros either. I guess everyone has a couple of oddballs like that.
Houndoom leads are pretty good against just about every common lead except Ambipom, so it's not because you are the only one who uses a lead that totally beats him that he is bad.
Uxie: Dark Pulse for the 2HKO, doesn't mind a Trick, Lum Berry for Thunder Wave.
Ambipom: You lose.
Roserade: Fire Blast OHKO, Lum Berry means Sash or Scarfed versions can't sleep it, Scarfed Sludge Bomb doesn't OHKO.
Moltres: HP Rock is almost a guaranted OHKO while Life Orb Modest Air Slash can't OHKO, and you are faster. I guess Scarfed versions have a chance to flinch but most times you should easy win.
Yanmega: Can't OHKO you and is OHKO'd back by HP Rock or Fire Blast, Sucker Punch finnishes it if it has a Sash.
Electrode: Dark Pulse on the Rain Dance, Sucker Punch on the Explosion and it's dead.
Arcanine: HP Rock is a 2HKO and you are almost always faster. Non-life orb Extremespeed fails to 2HKO.
Steelix: OHKO'd.
Hippopotas: OHKO'd. So it either gets Rock down or kills Houndoom.
Typhlosion: You lose, but at least you can be sure it isn't using Eruption, which makes it a lot easier to switch into.
Well, I've been using Houndoom on my HyperOffensive team for almost a month or so. Except I've been using the Mix Doom set as it is hands down the most effective way of using Houndoom. I personally use Pursuit/ Sucker Punch/ Fire Blast/ Dark Pulse and with that set he can deal with soooo many threats...
Registeel loses 3/4+ Hp from Fire Blast, Most slow bros i've seen were OHKO'd, Pursuit Takes down annoying Rotom, Sucker Punch does around 94-108 damage to Standard Dugtrio, Fire Blast 2hko's Dophan... ya.. he's good.
Registeel loses 3/4+ Hp from Fire Blast, Most slow bros i've seen were OHKO'd, Pursuit Takes down annoying Rotom, Sucker Punch does around 94-108 damage to Standard Dugtrio, Fire Blast 2hko's Dophan... ya.. he's good.
In a world where stealth rock, chansey, aqua jet azumarril, milotic, and technitop exist; houndoom may never sweep. On the other hand; I'm pretty glad it's seeing some good use as a lead as its proven it does well against most of them.
p.s I feel like a complete nutbag for saying the nidoking thing.
p.s I feel like a complete nutbag for saying the nidoking thing.
mix or NP houndoom with NP toxicroak (Sludge Bomb, Vaccum Wave, Dark Pulse) Together on a team is offensively SICK..
Flash Fire + Houndoom's Dark typing + Dry Skin and immunity to Toxic is a sick immunity combination as well
Flash Fire + Houndoom's Dark typing + Dry Skin and immunity to Toxic is a sick immunity combination as well
I've been using this, but with Focus Blast > Vacuum Wave. I like how Chansey and the Regi's are OHKO'd by it.
Shit accuracy and no priority kinda make it less worth it.
HP Fighting is better than Focus Blast. 2HKOs Chansey at +2, and if Chansey doesn't have Thunder Wave, you can always get a 2nd plot up while she Stosses you.
I'm not sure why, but ever since the reset, my win record has gotten a lot worse with my stall team. I've noticed an increase in the amount of Rain Dance teams used on the ladder, which is incredibly annoying. I've also noticed a slight increase in the amount of set-up sweepers used in the metagame, such as SD Sceptile among other things. Mainly, the worst problem for me at the moment has been hard heavy hitters opening up holes in my team that another team member takes advantage of, but there's not much I can do about that. Getting hax hasn't made my laddering attempts any easier either, for those of you who know me as the "Prince of Hax". ;)
For those of you with more experience that myself, which type of team would you say works best on the ladder and why? From my own pesperctive, it seems that offensive teams are quite good at this metagame, especially those that are particularly good at stall breaking. I've been considering using balanced stall, as I know some of the better ladderers in the tier use that type of style, but I have yet to experiment in the UU tier, so some suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
For those of you with more experience that myself, which type of team would you say works best on the ladder and why? From my own pesperctive, it seems that offensive teams are quite good at this metagame, especially those that are particularly good at stall breaking. I've been considering using balanced stall, as I know some of the better ladderers in the tier use that type of style, but I have yet to experiment in the UU tier, so some suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
HP Fighting works really well if you feel threatend by the Regis and Chansey but at +6 Vaccum Wave can do a good number on them. VW is too good to pass up and allows you to still do damage to others after being paralyzed by Chansey. Running Leftovers means you can NP while taking seismic tosses while doing +6VW 43.47% - 51.14% to Chansey
If you need to drop anything drop Dark Pulse for HP Fighting. and hope that you have some residual damage on SlowBro to KO it with Sludge Bomb (74.11% - 87.56% with leftovers but 96.70% - 113.71% with life orb.)
Fighting/Dark is better than Fighting/Poison.
I run a NP Toxicroak with NP/HP Fighting/Shadow Ball/Vacuum Wave, works wonderfully. HP Fighting is definately more reliable than Focus Blast as your main attacking move, and Vacuum Wave is of course for those annoying Dugtrios. I also prefer Shadow Ball over Dark Pulse because it hits opposing Toxicroaks neutral.
I run a NP Toxicroak with NP/HP Fighting/Shadow Ball/Vacuum Wave, works wonderfully. HP Fighting is definately more reliable than Focus Blast as your main attacking move, and Vacuum Wave is of course for those annoying Dugtrios. I also prefer Shadow Ball over Dark Pulse because it hits opposing Toxicroaks neutral.
I briefly used a Mix NP Toxicroak that was something like this, IIRC:
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Rash
Dry Skin
8 Atk / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Nasty Plot
~ Vacuum Wave
~ Dark Pulse
~ Cross Chop
The other attacks hit on the special side of the spectrum. With its handy Toxic and Water resistances, Toxicroak gets a lot of free NPs. It can also give a false impression of being a pure special attacker and lure Chansey in. That's where Cross Chop comes in. It OHKOs Chansey 100% of the time with or without SR with the 8 Atk EV's. It also 2HKO's Registeel.
Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Rash
Dry Skin
8 Atk / 248 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Nasty Plot
~ Vacuum Wave
~ Dark Pulse
~ Cross Chop
The other attacks hit on the special side of the spectrum. With its handy Toxic and Water resistances, Toxicroak gets a lot of free NPs. It can also give a false impression of being a pure special attacker and lure Chansey in. That's where Cross Chop comes in. It OHKOs Chansey 100% of the time with or without SR with the 8 Atk EV's. It also 2HKO's Registeel.
I've also been using a NP Toxicroak on my current team. I've tried HP Fighting before, and despite its reliability I found that it didn't get many of the necessary KOs that Focus Blast could, especially after setup. It means that you need to be extra careful about how much previous damage you have taken before setting up, given that you have almost 0% chance of killing anything over two turns. That said, my luck has been pretty bad with Focus Blast lately, so I may give HP Fighting another try soon.
I would never use Leftovers over Life Orb in this environment however, the main reason being that +2 Vacuum Wave has no chance of OHKOing Dugtrio after SR with no boost. With Life Orb you have around a 70% chance after Dugtrio switches into SR once.
I would never use Leftovers over Life Orb in this environment however, the main reason being that +2 Vacuum Wave has no chance of OHKOing Dugtrio after SR with no boost. With Life Orb you have around a 70% chance after Dugtrio switches into SR once.
I might be to blame for the Houndoom leads, i posted an analysis on a lead Doom set, it got locked cause a nother one is coming out soon + i have terrible grammer, but it can beat ANY Roserade lead if it doesnt get Haxxed by a crit or a FB Miss, and it deals with Uxies, Moltres, and Yanmega leads well too
I'm gonna have to say hyper-offensive, because ever since august let me use his HO team, I've barely been losing to stall teams at all, which seems to be pretty popular now. Though, you might want to make sure you have a Toxic Spikes absorber and a bulky Rapid Spinner.
Dugtrio is doing really bad right now, though I'm pretty sure we could expect a comeback from it if some of the current BL Pokemon (Froslass, Raikou) become UU.
Oh, and what are good ways to counter Toxicroak? (both NPCroak and Subpuncher)
Nidoqueen can take on both sets. Weezing can do awesome against the subpuncher but boosted Shadow Balls hurt. Muk does decent as well. Poison types are pretty much Toxicroaks bane.
I still think Stall Teams rule the UU metagame. Its the safe "option" to this tier. Rain Dance teams are a trouble, I have to admit, but most people won't expect them. They tend to tweak teams after they encounter one, opening the gates to plenty more threats if the next opponent you face is not Rain Dance. Overall, offensive teams are alright in this metagame, but Rain Dance team is still that "forgotten threat".
As for your question, most people are packing Rotom for their spin blockers. Donphan is a great Rapid Spinner and can 2HKO Spiritomb with Earthquake and 2HKO Rotom with Assurance. Chansey wields Shed Bell, so using Trick on it would be great. People add Dugtrio on their stall teams (from my experience). Overall, people are trying new things, and people seem to find counters for one. I would say packing Dugtrio would create a "balance stall". Its almost like a staple on teams, grabs the free KOs on weakened Pokemon.
Where has queen Roserade disappeared to? I haven't seen a single Roserade so far. Ambipom has been non-existent as well.
Donphan has the makings of a top-tier UU right now.
Speaking of which, is Seed Bomb a decent choice on the CB set? I run max HP and attack, with Seed Bomb, EQ, Rapid Spin, Ice Shard.
Donphan has the makings of a top-tier UU right now.
Speaking of which, is Seed Bomb a decent choice on the CB set? I run max HP and attack, with Seed Bomb, EQ, Rapid Spin, Ice Shard.
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