~~Team Sidewinder~~

Stylish Interval

In case anyone goes back through this, this is all4game's team and I'm working on making adjustments to it for myself. All changes are marked in Navy Blue.


Current Team:


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Starmie @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SpA | 252 Spe | 4 HP
  • Hydro Pump
  • Ice Beam
  • Thunderbolt
  • Trick
Why This Pokemon: This was one of the leads I tested and I love it. Most people don't realize it's scarfed so they either fall for the trick or their sweeper is revenged later.

Why This Set: I like being able to Trick opponents, it is a good check for things like Curse Swampert and Crocune and is a great weapon against stall. I also like that it can spin away rocks against things like Azelf. However I find that it's hard to chose between Ice Beam and Thunderbolt, so I'm considering replacing Rapid Spin with Thunderbolt for greater coverage.

Vs. Common Leads (Shamelessly stolen from Comp who stoke it from The Shiny Pidgey, and he shamelessly stole it from the smog)
Azelf - Trick, and they'll be stuck on Taunt or SR usually. Then Hydro Pump + Rapid Spin for the KO.

Aerodactyl - Ice Beam for the 2hko

Swampert - Trick. Usually they'll switch though. Meh.

Metagross - Hydro Pump for what is usually a 2hko.

Jirachi - I usually assume they're Scarfed, and use Hydro Pump. U-Turn hurts and it gets out a counter.

Infernape - Hydro Pump to break the sash, Ice beam or Rapid Spin to KO.

Machamp - Hydro Pump to at least hurt it while it usually KO's Starmie with payback. Send in Salamence to finish it off.

Roserade - Annoying. Switching to Heracross is probably the best move. Sometimes I'll stay in and ice beam to break the sash.

Tyranitar - Hydro Pump to attempt a 2hko, if it uses payback send in Salamence to revenge.

Gliscor - Will usually switch. I use Hydro Pump so things like Heatran can't come in like they would on an Ice Beam.

Heatran - Hydro Pump.

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Heracross @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
Nature: Careful
EVs: 252 HP | 40 Att | 216 SpD
  • Rest
  • Sleep Talk
  • Bulk Up
  • Megahorn
Why This Pokemon: This is the pokemon this team was built around.

Why This Set: This set has a lot of potential and can take down whole teams once Heatran or Skarmory is gone. It can set up on all of the bulky waters without worrying about Toxic, and after one bulk up it can 2HKO Vaporeon. It can also easily set up on Choice-locked Flygons, Tyranitars, Heatrans, Gengars, and many other things. However it is not without it's faults. It is walled and taken down but Skarmory, Heatran, some Zapdos, most Mence (if they play correctly), Crobat, and maybe a few others.

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Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
Nature: Naive
EVs: 4 HP | 252 SpA | 252 Spe
  • Fire Blast
  • Dragon Pulse
  • Earth Power
  • Explosion
Why This Pokemon: Heatran has great synergy with Heracross, and can come in on any Brave Birds or Fire Blasts directed at it, while Heracross can setup on the Bulky Waters that threaten Heatran.

Why This Set: Scarftran lets me at least tie with other heatran. This is important because opposing Heatran must be removed before Heracross can sweep. This heatran also allows me to revenge kill MixMence which is a threat to my team (any everyone else's...). I can also outspeed and Explode on +1 Gyarados which otherwise trouble my team.

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Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
Nature: Modest
EVs: 32 HP | 252 SpA | 224 Spe
  • Surf
  • Dragon Pulse
  • Hydro Pump
  • Draco Meteor
Why This Pokemon: On all4game's original team this was a MixMence but Salamence may be banned soon and I like Kingdra as a wall-breaker more than I like Salamence as one. More longetivity for the same power in my opinion. I guess I either just don't like Salamence or I can't play it right.

Why This Set: Water + Dragon is amazing coverage in just two types. Kingdra gets STAB with both so Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor are powered up to their max. With a Modest nature, Kingdra has 2 less points in SpA than Latias had when it was Timid Specs, meaning it maintains the same Dragon Power while improving the power of Water attacks. It also is not Pursuit weak. This set was introduced to me by Bologo when I was bringing up powerful Choice Specs users in the Suspect 3-4 Thread and I have fallen in love with it since.

I'm originally had Dragonite here and I can't say I'm completely happy with the switch. I feel like Dragonite had better Super Effective coverage, which made up for the lack of speed and less power.

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Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Relaxed
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
  • Stealth Rock
  • Ice Beam
  • Earthquake
  • Roar
Why This Pokemon: Swampert sort of holds my team together. I needed another check to DD Mence (who doesn't?), and something to set up SR. Swampert is as good as any other poke in both regards, and I get another Heatran check as well.

Why This Set: Stealth Rock is a huge benefit to this team. Some of the things that often switch in on Heracross like Zapdos, Salamence, and even Crobat take a lot from SR, which limits their ability to counter it for long. Ice Beam takes down and Dragons locked into Outrage and provides good coverage with Earthquake (the obligatory STAB move). EQ also helps with Lanturn although the SubChargeBeam set can 2hko with Hydro Pump. Roar is for scouting which is invaluable for this team, since Heracross has some very specific counters. It's also a last ditch effort to get rid of Crocune.


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Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
  • Earthquake
  • Stone Edge
  • Roost
  • Taunt
Why This Pokemon: Flygon was the 4th choice user on the team and I really didn't like it so I replaced it with this Aerodactyl. While I am losing a check to Dragon Dance Kingdra, I'm testing this to give myself a better late game sweeper and to give myself a better mid-game sweeper.

Why This Set: As mentioned, this set is a better late-game sweeper than Flygon was and can more easily clean up after Heracross. It can also come in after Kingdra has wrecked the opposing team mid-game and begin a sweep that Heracross could finish. Aerodactyl can heal on a switch if it needs to, but the way I'll be using it I'm not sure it will. Taunt provides a tool against Stall as well.


Currently Testing


Thoughts on Current Tests:

​


Tested
  • Life Orb Aerodactyl
Flygon was the 4th Choice User of the team and I personally did not like the way it handled itself. While it was alright late game I think that Aerodactyl will do better with it's solid high speed and attack. It will miss the Dragon STAB and ability to revenge kill Kingdra but I think this will be a great switch.​

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Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
  • Earthquake
  • Stone Edge
  • Roost
  • Taunt
Why This Pokemon: Flygon was the 4th choice user on the team and I really didn't like it so I replaced it with this Aerodactyl. While I am losing a check to Dragon Dance Kingdra, I'm testing this to give myself a better late game sweeper and to give myself a better mid-game sweeper.

Why This Set: As mentioned, this set is a better late-game sweeper than Flygon was and can more easily clean up after Heracross. It can also come in after Kingdra has wrecked the opposing team mid-game and begin a sweep that Heracross could finish. Aerodactyl can heal on a switch if it needs to, but the way I'll be using it I'm not sure it will. Taunt provides a tool against Stall as well.

  • Attacking Lead Machamp
Starmie is alright but I've wanted to test a new lead anyway. I recently played mess on the ladder and it was a pretty good match but my lack of a reliable way to beat SkarmBliss really wasn't good, so I've decided to use a Machamp lead to hopefully fix this. If it doesn't work than I'll test out Infernape over Swampert while moving Swampert to the lead position.​


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Machamp @ Lum Berry
Ability: No Guard
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 240 HP | 240 Atk | 16 SpD | 12 Spe
  • DynamicPunch
  • Bullet Punch
  • Payback
  • ThunderPunch
Why This Pokemon: Machamp is replacing Starmie mostly because of a weakness to SkarmBliss. I need a way to hopefully get around it because it's on most stall teams. Having a stall weak team isn't good for me. Machamp is a reliable way to beat most leads so hopefully it will not prove underwhelming for me in this test.

Why This Set: This is the standard Attacking Lead Machamp set, but with ThunderPunch in place of Ice Punch or Stone Edge. Hopefully it will be able to last until mid-game (which it should be able to) where I will utilize it to beat SkarmBliss. This, in combination with Aero, should help the original team's weakness to Stall while helping improve the team in general.

Old Members
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Flygon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
  • Earthquake
  • U-Turn
  • Dragon Claw
  • Outrage
Why This Pokemon: Flygon is my favorite pokemon. It has great typing and synergy with almost everything and everyone always assumes it to be scarfed, which I use to my advantage.

Why This Set: On All4game's original team, this was a Choice Band Flygon. But I need another check to Kingdra so I switched this to Choice Scarf, able to outspeed +1 Kingdra outside of rain.
 
Threat Lists

Log of Changes:

  • Switched Choice Scarf Flygon for Life Orb Aerodactyl.
  • Switched Rapid Spin on Starmie for Thunderbolt.
  • Switched Timid nature on Starmie for Modest.



Team Testing Notes:

-Currently the team listed in the OP is working very well. 3-0 with it so far.
-Make that 3-1. Breloom is a bitch to this team.
-Alright, up to 5-1 and Aerodactyl serves as a great Lucario check.
-More notes here: Have improved my CRE by 100 so far and this team is really doing well. I'm getting the hang of using Heracross but I'm not quite perfect with it yet. It's hard to sweep with it and I might change it for either Bulk Up 3 Attacks or SubCross.
-Hydro Pump is inaccurate. :/
-What the fuck I keep losing to random BP teams that get so lucky because I keep missing. Otherwise good team so far. Not noting any major weaknesses and mostly when I lose it's because I miss something (or it's Shuca Heatran what is that)
-New testing today and I've had a little trouble with Trick Room but they've been close matches. I think I can outplay them.
-This team cannot beat Yanmega at all lol. Lack of priority :/
-I played this guy with a Heracross-weak Hail Team twice in a row and he beat me both times. Reason was because he critted me with Fire Punch from Dusknoir both times after +2/+2 Heracross was about to rape him.



Okay this is a new day's worth of testing notes
-But there is only one lol. This team seems to be in general the best team available. Heracross can almost pull off last-mon Curselax type sweeps. It's pretty epic.
 
Hey, I got your pm.

You're team looks pretty good. I recommend changing Hidden Power Grass on Heatran to Dragon Pulse. This way, you can deal with dragons a lot easier, revenge killing them easier.

Looking at your salamence, I think you should change the EVs a little. Try this spread: 84 Atk / 216 SpA / 208 Spe. The given EVs allow Salamence to KO 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Cresselia on average with Stealth Rock damage by a combination of Draco Meteor on the switch-in and then two repeated Outrages. The Attack EVs also guarantee that Outrage 2HKOes the most defensive of Bold Blissey with Stealth Rock. 208 Speed EVs assure that Salamence outruns all Gyarados prior to a Dragon Dance. I also recommend a Rash nature, so Mixmence hits as hard as possible.

For your vaporeon, I recommend Ice beam over HP Electric. Your Metagross carries Thunderpunch, so you dont have to be redundant. Ice beam makes Vaporeon an excellent check to dragons like Salamence.

For swampert, you might consider Protect over Roar, as it helps ease prediction.

You also might consider replacing spiritomb with (ironically) Rotom-H.

"Spiritomb adds a Fighting and Normal resist, which are never not helpful, as well as a Psychic resist. It really helps against exploding Pokemon and Blissey."

According to your description, Rotom-A fits the bill, and is immune to ground type moves.


Rotom - H @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
~ Thunderbolt / Discharge
~ Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting
~ Overheat
~ Will-O-Wisp / Reflect

good luck with the team
 
frogbandit said:
Hey, I got your pm.

You're team looks pretty good. I recommend changing Hidden Power Grass on Heatran to Dragon Pulse. This way, you can deal with dragons a lot easier, revenge killing them easier.

Yes, I agree. Dragon Pulse does seem to be the superior option. I'll change that.

Looking at your salamence, I think you should change the EVs a little. Try this spread: 84 Atk / 216 SpA / 208 Spe. The given EVs allow Salamence to KO 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Cresselia on average with Stealth Rock damage by a combination of Draco Meteor on the switch-in and then two repeated Outrages. The Attack EVs also guarantee that Outrage 2HKOes the most defensive of Bold Blissey with Stealth Rock. 208 Speed EVs assure that Salamence outruns all Gyarados prior to a Dragon Dance. I also recommend a Rash nature, so Mixmence hits as hard as possible.

With Spiritomb, Cresselia isn't even a problem, so I see no reason to change the EVs. EQ + Outrage already KOs Blissey. I'll test it, but unless 2HKOs are changed to OHKOs I see no reason to give up a speed tie with other base 100s.

For your vaporeon, I recommend Ice beam over HP Electric. Your Metagross carries Thunderpunch, so you dont have to be redundant. Ice beam makes Vaporeon an excellent check to dragons like Salamence.

I don't think HP Electric is being redundant. I think it's covering a threat that is in Gyarados. Metagross cannot come in on Gyarados and go out unharmed, as a +1 Jolly EQ KOs Metagross. That means it cannot sweep, and ruins the point of the team. Vaporeon is far from a check to Salamence. It is KOd by a +1 Naive DD Mence's outrage 79% of the time. I know I already send it in to sacrifice it, so changing its purpose of taking care of Gyarados isn't doing me any favors.

For swampert, you might consider Protect over Roar, as it helps ease prediction.

Prediction against what? Azelf will go boom, covered by Spiritomb. Jirachi will Trick, done in by Heatran. Other Swampert will set-up, I'll hit them with either Swampert or Vaporeon. Roar allows me to move Pokemon around and scout out, versus your Protect allowing me to get Lefties recovery, possibly. Roar also allows me to get rid of Pokemon that have set up, such as Curselax or CM Cune, if they have not set-up to the point of the KO. Scenarios of where Protect is very useful would be nice.

You also might consider replacing spiritomb with (ironically) Rotom-H.

"Spiritomb adds a Fighting and Normal resist, which are never not helpful, as well as a Psychic resist. It really helps against exploding Pokemon and Blissey."

According to your description, Rotom-A fits the bill, and is immune to ground type moves.


Rotom - H @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
~ Thunderbolt / Discharge
~ Shadow Ball / Hidden Power Fighting
~ Overheat
~ Will-O-Wisp / Reflect

Spiritomb is also there to counter Rotom-A and other Psychic types that might pose a threat to my team, such as Azelf and Cresselia. Reasoning why you think Rotom-A would fufill the job better than Spiritomb would be great.

good luck with the team
Click to expand...

Thanks.
 
Give Swampert Ice Beam over Surf because it gets better coverage. The fact that mence leads are rare doesn't matter. Dragon Dance mence can set up Vaporeon or Heatran and right now your only way of stopping it is with roar.
 
cmurph said:
Give Swampert Ice Beam over Surf because it gets better coverage. The fact that mence leads are rare doesn't matter. Dragon Dance mence can set up Vaporeon or Heatran and right now your only way of stopping it is with roar.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure actually that after Mence uses Outrage I can handle it with one of two Steel-types. Now that that is addressed, the same Naive DD Mence (232 Atk EVs, Life Orb) that I used in an example earlier (which is less seen compared to the attack boosting ones) does 77%-90% to my Swampert with Outrage after a Dragon Dance. I would basically need to be at full health to take that hit, and I would be sacrificing Surf for a non-STAB move that won't help me hit anything that I couldn't already besides Salamence/Dragonite. Why you think I would send in Swampert against Salamence is beyond me. Scenarios of where you can prove this is helpful would be nice, but I don't think the calculations lie. Sending in Swampert would help counter salamence as much as Vaporeon would, that is to say it wouldn't.
 
PokeN3rd_Pwnz0r said:
I'm pretty sure actually that after Mence uses Outrage I can handle it with one of two Steel-types. Now that that is addressed, the same Naive DD Mence (232 Atk EVs, Life Orb) that I used in an example earlier (which is less seen compared to the attack boosting ones) does 77%-90% to my Swampert with Outrage after a Dragon Dance. I would basically need to be at full health to take that hit, and I would be sacrificing Surf for a non-STAB move that won't help me hit anything that I couldn't already besides Salamence/Dragonite. Why you think I would send in Swampert against Salamence is beyond me. Scenarios of where you can prove this is helpful would be nice, but I don't think the calculations lie. Sending in Swampert would help counter salamence as much as Vaporeon would, that is to say it wouldn't.
Click to expand...

I guess the gist of what I'm saying is, having an ice move is really important with all the Salamence and Latias running around, and, to a lesser extent, Flygon and Dragonite. Swampert has the defensive stats to take all of these things on, but can't if it has surf instead of ice beam. Ice beam gives better overall coverage

edit: I believe those 52 spa evs are so you can ohko mence with ice beam
 
cmurph said:
I guess the gist of what I'm saying is, having an ice move is really important with all the Salamence and Latias running around, and, to a lesser extent, Flygon and Dragonite. Swampert has the defensive stats to take all of these things on, but can't if it has surf instead of ice beam. Ice beam gives better overall coverage

edit: I believe those 52 spa evs are holdovers from the Garchomp era and allow you to ohko chomp with ice beam, those can be redistributed to special defense or defense or even attack depending on your preferences
Click to expand...

Thanks for the EV tip, I was wondering what those were there for lol.

Also about Swampert taking Latias: Latias has an already monstrous Sp.D, I don't think that Swampert can KO, much less take on, a Latias. It has Recover and Calm Mind in it's arsenal, and really I don't think using it to fight it would be that great. Spiritomb or Metagross would probably be greater choices, or even forcing it out with a threatening Explosion from Heatran. I guess it might be able to take Flygon, but one rather uncommon Pokemon really isn't enough to change my mind.
 
hey, nice team, but i do see some things that could be improved upon. my first concern is the lack of a solid electric resist. shit like lolatias and specs or lo jolt really is a big concern to your team, both being able to either ohko or do an upwards of 75% to your sole resist in swampert. the other big problem is that you dont really eliminate metagross' counters per se. i mean you kinda have them covered with one individual pokemon, but they can still come in on the majority of your team. something like rotom + swampert will be extremely difficult for you to break, because your only "answer" to rotom is heatran, and salamence to an extent. defensive comboes in general really love your team. a good partner to agiligross is something like ddgyara. if you use taunt, he's an excellent stallbreaker, and he loves luring out bulky waters and rotom and putting a nice dent in them. offensive gyarados is an option, but it really dies too quickly and opens you up to stall too much.

gyarados @ leftovers
184 spe / 156 hp / 96 def / 172atk

~ waterfall
~ dragon dance
~ taunt
~ stone edge

imo put it over salamence. you can't afford to have two stealth rock weaks on a team with no spinner, and all the other members of yuor team are too valuable to lose. that doesnt help with your scarf rotom / specs jolt weak, but honestly if you are half decent you should be able to predict around that with heatran and swampert eating tbolts and hp grasses / shadow balls. hope i helped with the team, good luck in the future
 
OK looking at the main counters to Metagross i think swampert/hippowdon/gliscor and Rotom so this team needs to be able to handle these before Metagross shows itself. Firstly you need to change Swampert moveset. Change Surf for Ice Beam. This is considered the better option as it has similar coverage but it also allows you to OHKO salamence and Gliscor the latter you definitely need to hit hard to allow you to on the other hand surf doesnt really help and just makes swampy set up fodder for Mence.

The other thing that counters gross is Waters, most of which are only 2hkoed by Tpunch for this reason you need an easy switch into them which can threaten them. For this reason i suggest you use a Latias either a Specs or Life Orb variant will do nicely. Latias pretty much covers the same stuff as Vaporeon anyway bar Gyarados who you can cover with Metagross to a certain extent.
The reason i think Latias works so well is because it provides you with another Draco Meteor allowing you to wreak havoc on the enemies steels allowing one or the other to sweep and an easy switch into what metagross fears. Of course losing vaporeon does make you weaker against rain dance and kingdra but you should be able to handle them offensively now.

This is the latias set:

252spe/252spa
timid

1.Specs:Surf/Draco Meteor/Trick/Dragon Pulse

Specs allows you to 2hko standard TTar and scizor with surf with sr. Trick works to crap on blissey and 2 trickers (with rotom see later is more likely to get the bitch)

2. Life Orb:Recover /Surf /Draco Meteor Tbolt/Hp fire

You say you need spiritomb to rid you of Rotom but i disagree you aready have both Heatran and 2 Dragons (with my changes) who can practically OHKO it with DM while it cant do much back. For this reason i think it may be an idea to change Spiritomb to a Rotom yes it opens you up to azelf and gengar but on the other hand you have a good answer to gyarados. I would run the rest talk set. With WoW and Tbolt as the attacking options. This also gives you a nice switch into status.

This may work:

Rotom - H @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
~ Thunderbolt
~ Will-O-Wisp
~ Rest
~ Sleep Talk

The other option to do with Rotom is slightly more complicated. I suggest you cahnge rotom and Heatran's roles around. Slap the scarf on rotom and make Heatran into a toxic sub variant this way you have a surefire way of weakening Metagross's counters whilst you still have a check to jolly gyarados something you currently lack.

Rotom - H @ Scarf
Timid
252 Spe / 252spa
~ Thunderbolt
~ Shadow Ball
~ Overheat
~ Trick

Heatran @Leftover
Timid
252spe/252spa
fire blast/flamethrower
Earth Power
Toxic
Sub

Hopefully these chages will help you pull off plenty of metagross sweeps.
Good luck and thanks for the pm.
 
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