Well we're not building the perfect Pokemon, we're stopping the secondary. Steels don't usually have secondary moves they use.
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
CAP 9 CAP 9 - Secondary Typing Discussion
- Thread starter Plus
- Start date
- Status
Well we're not building the perfect Pokemon, we're stopping the secondary. Steels don't usually have secondary moves they use.
im showing support for Dark/Ground for his immunity to electric type attack and sandstorm, not to mention the SR resist.
If I recall correctly, there were two parts to this concept: being immune to certain secondary effects and punishing the users of these secondary effects. Typing and ability will allow CAP9 to fulfil the former and help a little to fulfil the latter while stats and movepool will only allow it to fulfil the latter with the exception of Safeguard. That is why I was originally saying any typing other than Fire, Ground, Poison and Steel was counterproductive.
That isn't what I meant. SD Lucario, Agiligross, and Agility Empoleon are all examples of dangerous Pokemon who would take advantage of our little Dark/Poison friend. Of course, outspeeding them and Taunting seems to be the ultimate way to stop ANY secondary move, so my argument was nullified before I even brought it up.
Also it seems Doug has flavor on his mind, but he's also right. He's right that we haven't learned by now that Fighting is too good. But that really won't stop the flood of Fighting supporters still gunnin' for the win.
Woah. I guess that's a really good point too. If we're going to make a completely new Pokemon with a new niche, why not go with a more exotic choice. I mean, something to break the mold, but still be competitive. Dark/Poison I'm against because Ground is probably the worst weakness to have. But what about Dark/Grass, which gives immunity to Leech Seed, and only really worries about Fire, Ice, Fighting, and Bug, while resisting Ground. Or, despite the SR weakness, Dark/Flying? Immunity to (Toxic)Spikes and Ground attacks, hits Grass types hard, and only worries about Ice, Electric, and Rock. I'm just exploring other possibilities here, but none of them seem sound compared to what we've been discussing. Maybe we should just go for Dark/Ground, although it isn't that defensively sound.
Or we could just do dark. No secondary type.
Pros: No 4x weaknesses! :D
Pros: No 4x weaknesses! :D
I am partially to either ground or poison. Ground's SR resistance and sandstorm are a nice bonus but I think T-Wave immunity is a big argument for it. Whatever this poke well end up doing movewise, T-Wave could be a huge liability either from it failing to act at an inconvient time or by letting it get killed before it can act due to a speed drop. I think speed will be a huge factor for making the concept work so this typing should definantly be considered.
Poison provides toxic immunity and provides protection agiainst a secoundary fleeing while hitting hard with U-turn. I think its biggest plus is auto removing T-Spikes. Besides speed, I think efficiency is another important factor, and being able to negate an entry hazord simply by coming in is as efficient as you can get.
Poison provides toxic immunity and provides protection agiainst a secoundary fleeing while hitting hard with U-turn. I think its biggest plus is auto removing T-Spikes. Besides speed, I think efficiency is another important factor, and being able to negate an entry hazord simply by coming in is as efficient as you can get.
Now that I think about it, maybe Dark/Ground's several weaknesses are actually a good thing for the concept. This way, since users of water, ice, grass and fighting moves are fairly common (as well as U-turners), people will focus more on using direct damage to take CAP9 out rather than relying on crippling it with secondary effects, therefore secondary effects will see less use, therefore CAP9 will have achieved its purpose.
Also, given how diverse we can make CAP9's movepool, STAB is a very insignificant argument, positive or negative, for any typing.
Also, given how diverse we can make CAP9's movepool, STAB is a very insignificant argument, positive or negative, for any typing.
I'm for Poison myself. Absorbs Toxic and Toxic Spikes, only one weakness (Ground), and Stealth Rock neutral. That leaves only paralysis, sleep and burn unchecked in terms of status effects, along with Spikes and Stealth Rock. Now, all of these could be fixed simply with an ability (Guts for burn, Levitate for Spikes, etc) or certain attacks (Rapid Spin being the big one).
As for Fighting, I think people are thinking too offensively with this CAP. STAB Brick Break isn't necessary to take out screens, and I don't think Stealth Rock resistance is absolutely necessary to this concept. Fighting does nothing to stop secondary damage, despite how good a typing Dark/Fighting is.
As for Fighting, I think people are thinking too offensively with this CAP. STAB Brick Break isn't necessary to take out screens, and I don't think Stealth Rock resistance is absolutely necessary to this concept. Fighting does nothing to stop secondary damage, despite how good a typing Dark/Fighting is.
I am set dead against Poison-type.
Offensively, it provides absolutely nothing that Dark couldn't do. It's a horrible offensive STAB. Defensively, it grants us one immunity and resistances to only rarely-seen types outside STAB, such as Grass, Poison and Ghost. Although it allows you to take on Psychic, Ghost and Dark attacks you could do that anyway with a pure Dark-type. Thus, Poison-type adds no real resistances defensively. It slightly weakens Fighting attacks at the expense of a Ground-type weakness - not really worth it, in my opinion, especially considering the prevalence of Earthquake in this metagame.
Second point, this could turn out as just another Drapion with a different ability. Drapion has reasonable Speed, a *usable* Attack stat for its STAB Pursuit, and good overall defensive stats. Personally, although others may feel differently, I think it would serve us better in learning about the metagame if we use a typing that doesn't correspond CAP9 to an already-existing Pokemon. The Poison and Toxic Spikes immunity is not really that important, especially if we intend to include an all-around status immunity from our ability, rather like the argument for Dark/Ground at present. It would also make Poison Heal an impossible choice, and since I feel it is one of the top contenders for the ability, I would vote against it, though again this comes back to personal preference again.
I would vote either for Fighting or Ground as the secondary type, simply because not only do they both provide a Stealth Rock resistance, but both give a load of other useful resistances, are both reasonable defensive types, and are relatively unexplored areas; though as Doug has said, Fighting-types have been explored before, so I'm leaning towards Ground at the moment.
Offensively, it provides absolutely nothing that Dark couldn't do. It's a horrible offensive STAB. Defensively, it grants us one immunity and resistances to only rarely-seen types outside STAB, such as Grass, Poison and Ghost. Although it allows you to take on Psychic, Ghost and Dark attacks you could do that anyway with a pure Dark-type. Thus, Poison-type adds no real resistances defensively. It slightly weakens Fighting attacks at the expense of a Ground-type weakness - not really worth it, in my opinion, especially considering the prevalence of Earthquake in this metagame.
Second point, this could turn out as just another Drapion with a different ability. Drapion has reasonable Speed, a *usable* Attack stat for its STAB Pursuit, and good overall defensive stats. Personally, although others may feel differently, I think it would serve us better in learning about the metagame if we use a typing that doesn't correspond CAP9 to an already-existing Pokemon. The Poison and Toxic Spikes immunity is not really that important, especially if we intend to include an all-around status immunity from our ability, rather like the argument for Dark/Ground at present. It would also make Poison Heal an impossible choice, and since I feel it is one of the top contenders for the ability, I would vote against it, though again this comes back to personal preference again.
I would vote either for Fighting or Ground as the secondary type, simply because not only do they both provide a Stealth Rock resistance, but both give a load of other useful resistances, are both reasonable defensive types, and are relatively unexplored areas; though as Doug has said, Fighting-types have been explored before, so I'm leaning towards Ground at the moment.
...What?
*Player switches out CAP9!*
*Opponent used one of five weaknesses!*
*CAP9 dies!*
*Opponent spams status everywhere!*
Yeah... Not seeing how that's supposed to work; CAP9 is just easily disposed of, and then things are easy-street. It won't be stopping anything, since it won't be able to stay alive long enough to do so.
Um, what?
-Heatran/Metagross (common leads here): Stealth Rock
-Skarmory: Spikes
-Forretress: Spikes, Toxic Spikes
-Brozong (another common lead): Stealth Rock, Hypnosis, Trick
Being able to actually touch Steels seems to be a pretty significant thing here. Thus, I'd prefer a type that doesn't let them come in and set up on you, so I'm not really liking Poison as a secondary typing.
Ground is the way to go. The only few pokemon who are commonly able to paralize ground types are Jirachi (Body Slam), Arbok (Glare) and Dunsparce (Body Slam, Glare). We should be fast enough to beat Dunsparce, and Ground STAB defeat Arbok easily and Jirachi somewhat easily. That, and Dark/Ground is a cool type.
Doug has already discussed why not to do fighting.
Want a pokemon to absorb T-Spikes? Why not use Fidget? He's (possibly) better.
Doug has already discussed why not to do fighting.
Want a pokemon to absorb T-Spikes? Why not use Fidget? He's (possibly) better.
What about Dark and Psychic? Bug isn't a terribly common attacking type and it would be the only weakness. Certainly better than a ground weakness....
And yes, it doesn't stop the secondary due to its typing, but I believe the ability can and probably will achieve that itself.
And yes, it doesn't stop the secondary due to its typing, but I believe the ability can and probably will achieve that itself.
U-Turn is one of the most common moves in the game. But I do get your point, the ability does seem to be the most important factor here.
Good point. I'm just saying, I think we could almost any direction with the typing because the concept can be fulfilled by the ability... and a poor typing will likely be balanced out by good stats, while a great typing will probably be balanced out by not-so-good stats. Meaning we have the freedom to choose something interesting.
I believe Ground is a better choice than poison. Not only is poison weak to earthquake, it is vulnerable to either burn or paralysis, but ground can take care of all three better than poison IF we gave it magic guard.
Exactly. ;)
Doug does raise a good point that we all knew but never really considered. I don't think we can just ignore Fighting though but I don't think more of a case needs to be made.
So now, I will push Poison.
Poison/Dark isn't as offensively inept as I previously thought. In OU, the only things that resist both would be CAP9 and any non-Psychic Steel type, of which there are 6 (hi Magnezone and Dugtrio?). That's certainly acceptable coverage, especially when we can do custom moves (probably a Dark type). Poison also stops secondaries quite well. It further limits Toxic Spikes (providing team support) and can absorb Toxic all day long.
Furthermore, having one key weakness will make for a fantastic Lure since so many things will love to switch into Earthquake/power.
I really think people have to consider exploitable weaknesses for Ground/Dark. Especially since some common Trickers use Surf (Latias, Starmie) or other Super Effective moves (Rotom-C, Rotom-W, Rotom-F, Celebi). Finally, a Bug weakness is exploitable by U-Turn (Jirachi).
Dark/Poison can take on any of those with little problem. Ground is counter intuitive to what Dark is supposed to do.
EDIT: Oh a btw, Dark/Psychic resists Psychic (immunity), so it balances the Bug problem perfectly :P
So now, I will push Poison.
Poison/Dark isn't as offensively inept as I previously thought. In OU, the only things that resist both would be CAP9 and any non-Psychic Steel type, of which there are 6 (hi Magnezone and Dugtrio?). That's certainly acceptable coverage, especially when we can do custom moves (probably a Dark type). Poison also stops secondaries quite well. It further limits Toxic Spikes (providing team support) and can absorb Toxic all day long.
Furthermore, having one key weakness will make for a fantastic Lure since so many things will love to switch into Earthquake/power.
I really think people have to consider exploitable weaknesses for Ground/Dark. Especially since some common Trickers use Surf (Latias, Starmie) or other Super Effective moves (Rotom-C, Rotom-W, Rotom-F, Celebi). Finally, a Bug weakness is exploitable by U-Turn (Jirachi).
Dark/Poison can take on any of those with little problem. Ground is counter intuitive to what Dark is supposed to do.
EDIT: Oh a btw, Dark/Psychic resists Psychic (immunity), so it balances the Bug problem perfectly :P
It has a whooping five weaknesses though (water, grass, ice, fighting, bug), with none of them being particularly rare. So, it might be immune to T-wave, but it will just be easy pickings for whatever offensive moves the opponent has. Not good.
And neither Ground, nor Poison, nor Fighting, does anything at all about Burns, so I'm not sure why you brought that up (Ground also doesn't resit Fire if that's where you were going--it's a neutrality. Going the other way, Ghosts are the most typical users of Will-o-wisp anyway compared to Fire types, and we already have the Dark type to deal with Ghosts).
I was saying that IF we gave Cap 9 magic gaurd, then a ground type would not be harmed by any of the effects, while poison would be slowed by paralysis.
And i realize there are many weaknesses, but we are trying to stop secondary, not build a wall.
And i realize there are many weaknesses, but we are trying to stop secondary, not build a wall.
Dark/Ground has an advantage over Dark/Poison and it is that it has immunity to Twave, Sandstorm and a resistance to Stealth Rock. If we use Dark, it's going to have an offensive direction which can be hindered greatly with Twave which Ground grants us immunity to. The immunity to Sandstorm and resistance to SR are nice little bonuses.
Dark/Fire may be picked over Dark/Ground for burn immunity if anyone wishes...
Dark/Poison is also quite nice. It has better resistances (and only 1 weakness) and immunity to Toxic. Dark/Poison is better for defensive playing if Dark is purely to punish Trickers and hurt ghosts. Absorption of Toxic Spikes sure is punishment too :)
Dark/Fire may be picked over Dark/Ground for burn immunity if anyone wishes...
Dark/Poison is also quite nice. It has better resistances (and only 1 weakness) and immunity to Toxic. Dark/Poison is better for defensive playing if Dark is purely to punish Trickers and hurt ghosts. Absorption of Toxic Spikes sure is punishment too :)
Dark/Poison doesn't necessarily have to be played defensively. Look at Lucario for example. It's Steel-type, but doesn't take a defensive direction whatsoever.
I mean, we could easily solve Dark/Poison's horrible offensive play by using Ground-type moves like Earthquake. That would just screw up Lucario, Heatran, Metagross, etc. that may like to switch into this to absorb the STAB attacks. Even though it may not have STAB on it, it doesn't "really" matter in my opinion.
I mean, we could easily solve Dark/Poison's horrible offensive play by using Ground-type moves like Earthquake. That would just screw up Lucario, Heatran, Metagross, etc. that may like to switch into this to absorb the STAB attacks. Even though it may not have STAB on it, it doesn't "really" matter in my opinion.
- Status