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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Secondary Typing Discussion
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Just because you can kill some of the secondary users doesn't mean you stop them.
Just because the typing doesn't exist, doesn't mean we have a lot to learn from it. Lucario uses the Fighting/Dark attacking combo very often. There are no Dark/Ground types either, and that attacking combination isn't seen as often as Fighting/Dark. And yes Drapion and Skuntank are Dark/Poison typed but they are at 99 and 201 in usage respectively, so we can learn by making a viable Dark/Poison typing. And who says that our Dark/Poison will be anything like Drapion?
I currently support Dark/Poison, but Dark/Ground is great as well. I just see ABSOULUTLY NOTHING that Dark/Fighting has over either of the two.
Just because the typing doesn't exist, doesn't mean we have a lot to learn from it. Lucario uses the Fighting/Dark attacking combo very often. There are no Dark/Ground types either, and that attacking combination isn't seen as often as Fighting/Dark. And yes Drapion and Skuntank are Dark/Poison typed but they are at 99 and 201 in usage respectively, so we can learn by making a viable Dark/Poison typing. And who says that our Dark/Poison will be anything like Drapion?
I currently support Dark/Poison, but Dark/Ground is great as well. I just see ABSOULUTLY NOTHING that Dark/Fighting has over either of the two.
I see Dark/Ground doing very well in the Polls, but I still don't understand why that would be a good route to go. It has a total of five weaknesses: Ice, Grass, Water, Fighting, and Bug. None of these are particularly rare. And from what was learned during the Cyclohm, the presence of common weaknesses can really limit a Pokemon's potential. Thus, I can't see why we want to do that again with CAP9.
As for Fighting, I'm still liking it best. It gives us a nice Stealth Rock resistance though Ground gives us this as well), lets us have a chance of getting rid of Blissey should this thing be more of a special-attacker (remember, it's hardly set in stone yet that this thing will have an even passable Attack stat; it can still go either way, and we can't just assume that it will be a Physical-attacker or Mixed Sweeper right now), and gets good general offensive-coverage.
Fighting also gives us a STAB attack to hit most Steels for at least Neutral for. With Steels like Skarmory and Forretress (particularly the former of interest here, since Ground does get Forry) being present to set up Spikes, being able to stop them would be quite handy for this thing's concept. This is especially relevant if we're assuming this thing will be primarily a user of Physical attacks, since Steels like Skarmory have good Defense, and thus having a STAB attack to hit them for at least Neutral would be quite handy.
Plus, then we get back to weaknesses. Dark/Fight only has Fighting and Flying weaknesses, whereas Dark/Ground has Fighting, Bug, Grass, Ice, and Water weaknesses. Considering that both types, with a few exceptions, are going to be able to hit most of the same things, why go for Ground over Fighting? Yes, it picks up a T-wave immunity and a Sandstorm immunity. But is that really worth the additional three weaknesses? I just can't see it being so.
As for Poison, yes, it's nice defensively for the most part. But the type combo doesn't lend much confidence to being able to deal with Steels. With those like Metagross, Heatran, Brozong, Skarmory, and Forretress all being common users of stuff like entry-hazards and Status-effects (in the case of Brozong and Hypnosis), I can't see that being a very wise move. Ground will at least help us deal with most of them, but Poison is doing nothing there. Since several of these Pokemon are common leads, and the others not being all that rare, I can't see that being too good for CAP9.
Fighting, however, balances the aspects--it doesn't have too many weaknesses, only netting two and can still hit stuff like Steels pretty well. Thus, it seems the best way to go for me. Compared to Fighting, the cons the other two have make them look like they'll be giving CAP9 much more rough waters to have to tread through, IMO, and leaves me really iffy on them as a result.
As for Fighting, I'm still liking it best. It gives us a nice Stealth Rock resistance though Ground gives us this as well), lets us have a chance of getting rid of Blissey should this thing be more of a special-attacker (remember, it's hardly set in stone yet that this thing will have an even passable Attack stat; it can still go either way, and we can't just assume that it will be a Physical-attacker or Mixed Sweeper right now), and gets good general offensive-coverage.
Fighting also gives us a STAB attack to hit most Steels for at least Neutral for. With Steels like Skarmory and Forretress (particularly the former of interest here, since Ground does get Forry) being present to set up Spikes, being able to stop them would be quite handy for this thing's concept. This is especially relevant if we're assuming this thing will be primarily a user of Physical attacks, since Steels like Skarmory have good Defense, and thus having a STAB attack to hit them for at least Neutral would be quite handy.
Plus, then we get back to weaknesses. Dark/Fight only has Fighting and Flying weaknesses, whereas Dark/Ground has Fighting, Bug, Grass, Ice, and Water weaknesses. Considering that both types, with a few exceptions, are going to be able to hit most of the same things, why go for Ground over Fighting? Yes, it picks up a T-wave immunity and a Sandstorm immunity. But is that really worth the additional three weaknesses? I just can't see it being so.
As for Poison, yes, it's nice defensively for the most part. But the type combo doesn't lend much confidence to being able to deal with Steels. With those like Metagross, Heatran, Brozong, Skarmory, and Forretress all being common users of stuff like entry-hazards and Status-effects (in the case of Brozong and Hypnosis), I can't see that being a very wise move. Ground will at least help us deal with most of them, but Poison is doing nothing there. Since several of these Pokemon are common leads, and the others not being all that rare, I can't see that being too good for CAP9.
Fighting, however, balances the aspects--it doesn't have too many weaknesses, only netting two and can still hit stuff like Steels pretty well. Thus, it seems the best way to go for me. Compared to Fighting, the cons the other two have make them look like they'll be giving CAP9 much more rough waters to have to tread through, IMO, and leaves me really iffy on them as a result.
Which is exactly why everybody voted for something else. BECAUSE Fighting is too safe, and BECAUSE ALL the reasons you gave were because Fighting is good at resisting and covering weakness. Bringing back what Doug said, we don't need to make it perfect in every battle situation, the only thing about Fighting that fulfills the concept is a resistance to SR.
At least Ground covers that too, with Sandstorm immunity and an immunity to Thunder Wave, which are both necessary.
...And why exactly is being safe a bad thing all of a sudden (I'm pretty sure the connotation of "safe" is a positive one, last time I checked)? That's what gets me. Fighting's good, so we're going to go for something risky instead and just ignore Fighting because of that? That just doesn't compute to me. We already learned from Cyclohm that having common weaknesses is a really good way of keeping a Pokemon in-check, so why exactly are we going to go down that road again? Just because two CAPs are part Fighting already? Sorry, but I'd rather go down the safe road (especially considering the alternatives we have here): it's called safe for a reason.
We might be able to change a CAP's movepool or stats after playtesting should it completely bomb, but we won't be changing its typing. Thus, this is something I'd really prefer us going down the safe road on, as once we choose it, there's no going back on it. So, the "safe road" is really only the logical choice to me here, as if we mess up some of the other stuff, we can fix that, but we won't be able to fix this aspect of the cAP no matter what. Because of this, doing something like deliberately ignoring it just because it's "safe" doesn't add up for me for me in the least, as this is one of the most vital aspects of the CAP to get down-pact, and thus if we do it for nothing else, we should at least be picking the safe-bet for typing.
We might be able to change a CAP's movepool or stats after playtesting should it completely bomb, but we won't be changing its typing. Thus, this is something I'd really prefer us going down the safe road on, as once we choose it, there's no going back on it. So, the "safe road" is really only the logical choice to me here, as if we mess up some of the other stuff, we can fix that, but we won't be able to fix this aspect of the cAP no matter what. Because of this, doing something like deliberately ignoring it just because it's "safe" doesn't add up for me for me in the least, as this is one of the most vital aspects of the CAP to get down-pact, and thus if we do it for nothing else, we should at least be picking the safe-bet for typing.
Why should we intentionally handicap a Pokemon? I dislike this argument a lot, why not make it the best it can be? Fighting might be safe, but it works. It's not like making it Fighting will make it Uber, we still have a lot of work to do with it, but Fighting will make any direction feasible, Ground almost kills it defensively.
I don't know why we would intentionally handicap a Pokemon. Why don't you ask the other 120 people who voted for Ground? What i'm saying is, Fighting may be good, and its perfectly logical to pick it, but perhaps weaknesses to common attacks won't matter when the Pokemon you're switching into won't be using an attack anyways. We will have to wait and see.
And Ground hasn't exactly won yet, don't think its absolutely hopeless.
And Ground hasn't exactly won yet, don't think its absolutely hopeless.
Eh... Seems too risky for me (and especially with an aspect of the CAP like the typing). If it didn't have quite as many weaknesses, or if we were talking over something like Stats or Movepool here, then I might go for such a risk, but not this.
And Poison really isn't that great of an alternative for me (it's one weakness leaves it weak to one of the most common moves in the game, and its STABs don't boast most confidence over its performance against Steels, who commonly throw up Field Effects and other secondary effects), so I'm personally already getting shaky on how well CAP9 will actually be able to succeed, but I suppose we'll see.
And Poison really isn't that great of an alternative for me (it's one weakness leaves it weak to one of the most common moves in the game, and its STABs don't boast most confidence over its performance against Steels, who commonly throw up Field Effects and other secondary effects), so I'm personally already getting shaky on how well CAP9 will actually be able to succeed, but I suppose we'll see.
Naxte said:
My issue with Fighting, as I continue to bring up, is that what exactly does it bring to the table other than its offensive prowerss and defensive synergy? It doesn't follow the concept of 'Stopping the Secondary'. If this was 'Beat the Secondary Senseless', then I suppose Fighting would be garnering more attention.
Poison is at least immune to two types of secondary damage, while Ground resists one and is immune to another. What does Fighting stop? It doesn't stop anything. And before anyone reiterates the same point again, let me finish.
Dark: It was chosen as a main type due to its ability to threaten the common users of Trick. Meaning, it can come in reliably on a Trick, take the item, and then proceed to beat them through STAB Pursuit. What secondary move can fighting come in on, and subsequently prevent, with its STAB moves?
Fighting seems to be nothing more than: "It's safe, good, and a powerful hitter" so far to me.
EDIT: Also, seriously? People are still bringing up Poison's STAB? Have you looked at their movepools lately? I'm pretty sure no one cares about Poison's STAB (at least, that has absolutely nothing to do with why I picked it), when almost all of them learn Flamethrower/Fire Blast/etc. to hit those same Steel types, and almost always on their weaker Defense.
-Gives it a better shot against Skarmory and Forretress, two common users of Field Effects, without having Ground's five weaknesses, and without Poison's problem of finding some way of dealing with them without any STAB moves (which for it would be even more annoying should we end up going Physical, since Skarmory and Forretress have high Defense).
-Still gives us a shot against Blissey, another common spammer of Status, should we actually end up making this thing more of a Special-attacker.
IN other words, it allows us to actually deal with the Pokemon that are spamming secondary-effect moves, without having a buttload of weaknesses (Ground) or having a poor offensive-typing combination. Fighting may not actually give it any Status immunities, but there's still the Ability for that, so it's not too much of a problem. Whereas if we don't make sure we can actually switch in on them should we mispredict and they actually use an attack (Ground's problem), and actually be able to do something to them once we come in (Poison's problem; yeah, you'll be able to switch in on Toxics, but what after that? What's it going to be doing once in?), the status-immunities aren't going to really be meaning much comparatively. As a result, Fighting seems to have the best balance of pros and cons to me, and that's why I'm supporting.
In summary: Not every aspect of the CAP can be built around stopping some secondary-effect. It actually has to be able to come in on stuff other than secondary-effect moves, as those won't always be the moves used, and then actually do something once it's in. The typing-stage is a great spot to ensure this, due to how much of an effect it will have on the finished product. Thus, Fighting. It may not help in terms of actual status, but it still helps it to actually be able to come in (compared to Ground, due to fewer weaknesses) and do something once in it's in (compared to Poison). It may not have immunities to status, but there's still the ability for that, so it's alright. Thus, all things considered, Fighting appears to be the best choice to me.
Edit: As for the possibility of a Poison-type getting Stuff like Flamethrower, that's still relying on it's stat-build, which we can't be sure of yet. If it ends up getting a Special Attack of something like 40, even those won't help too much. Thus, I don't want to rely on that possibility too much right now, as I can't be sure that those attacks will actually be something that will work at this stage.
Both of which could easily be resolved by giving Poison a Fire type move, and a passable Special Attack Stat. Also, Fighting is only going to do more to Skarmory when it Roosts. Otherwise, it will just laugh at your attacks. (Assuming pure STAB here, since only Poison's STAB's keep being brought up.)
Blissey doesn't like any strong Physical Attack. As a matter of fact, Tyranitar can severely cripple it with STAB Pursuit, which our CAP Pokemon now has access too. We're talking about typing right now. Movepools and Stats will be strongly reflected by what types we choose. I seriously doubt that if Poison or Ground make it through, the entire community is going to leave them both wide open to Blissey. Why can't they both get Brick Break? Pretty much any Pokemon with arms gets it already.
Again, a Pokemon's movepool is not simply limited to it's STAB moves. A great OU example of this is none other than the offensive powerhouse itself, Salamence. When was the last time you saw a Salamence with a STAB Flying move? I can honestly say I never have. That's because Flying gives it an extremely useful immunity (Ground), but offers nothing really in terms of attack. It still does well however. Why? Because it can use Earthquake, Flamethrower, etc. That only reinforces my point behind Poison. It gives excellent resistances, an immunity, but you will most likely never attack with it.
So your whole arguement for a type that can't really stop any secondary moves is, "We'll fix that with the Ability"?
So, Poison is absolutely worthless once it switches in? I didn't realize that an entire type could do absolutely nothing outside of absorbing Toxic Spikes and Toxic status. Surely you aren't implying that Poison, once switching in on a mispredict, is utterly helpless. I can also safely assume that this CAP is going to be relatively bulky. It would not serve the Concept well at all if it ended up fainting after a hit or two.
Of course not. It will be foolhardy to even attempt that. However, that does not mean it should have no immunities at all, and in the end putting all the pressure solely on the ability.
And I should just assume that Dark/Fighting will automatically be able to function as well? What if it ends up with something like a 70 in Attack? Then how is it going to reliably threaten anything, STAB or not? Yes, I know that is an extreme example, and very unlikely to happen due to the fact that is was chosen as Dark for Pursuit. However, I was merely providing an example, with significant evidence to back it up. Assuming only goes so far for both parties. Until the actual movepool and stats threads come out, anything other than "This type offers this. This type offers this." is really a moot point, imo. (And I can be guilty of poll jumping easily as well.)
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