I probaly don't need to say much seeing the amount of support it has, but I say Mixed, possibly physical. As said before, the only reason really that we went with dark was pursuit, and Ground types typically launch strong EQs. We need it Mixy to take on many secondary users, like maybe Skarmory. Both Defence stats also need to be decent.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 5 - Build Bias Discussion
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Mixed, possibly Physical
As we have already decided the typing on good physical STAB, might as well, you know, make use of it. But this should not be treated to completely Physical, as most secondary users are Specially biased. I don't like having weakness in both typing AND move spectrum. Most of the other great reasons have been stated.
As we have already decided the typing on good physical STAB, might as well, you know, make use of it. But this should not be treated to completely Physical, as most secondary users are Specially biased. I don't like having weakness in both typing AND move spectrum. Most of the other great reasons have been stated.
One question, if we decided to go physical because we would like to deal alot of dmg with pursuit, what is to stop us going for mixed deffences because we will need it to take hits, and just have a realy poor SA
Nothing, and this is what we should be doing anyways.
Mixed, Possibly Physical, as CAP9 has to live up to its promise of stopping Trick through Pursuit and probably Crunch. But most secondary effect users that aren't already hit for Super Effective by Ground or Dark have high Defense but low Special Defense -- Skarmory, Hippowdon and Gliscor, for example. CAP9 would need to be able to use luring sets to eliminate those things, or prevent them from switching in in the first place, if it is to keep those Physical walls and tanks from setting up.
Advocating Physical to get the most out of stats.
Skarmory, Forretress, Gliscor, and Hippowdon are but a few of the secondary users we need to cover here. None of them carry SE attacks for CaP (except for Gliscor's U-Turn and the rare Hippo Ice Fang), and all are swiftly neutered by Taunt, Trick, Rapid Spin, or a competent special attacker (read: Starmie). I'm not too worried about the physical walls of OU at this point. The juicy STABs need strong stats to go with them while balancing out appropriate bulk to survive repeated switch-ins. There simply isn't enough room for SpA when all that is factored in (and, quite frankly, it doesn't need it).
Also, if this thing is physically biased, would the bias cap at 40 or could it go beyond that?
Skarmory, Forretress, Gliscor, and Hippowdon are but a few of the secondary users we need to cover here. None of them carry SE attacks for CaP (except for Gliscor's U-Turn and the rare Hippo Ice Fang), and all are swiftly neutered by Taunt, Trick, Rapid Spin, or a competent special attacker (read: Starmie). I'm not too worried about the physical walls of OU at this point. The juicy STABs need strong stats to go with them while balancing out appropriate bulk to survive repeated switch-ins. There simply isn't enough room for SpA when all that is factored in (and, quite frankly, it doesn't need it).
Also, if this thing is physically biased, would the bias cap at 40 or could it go beyond that?
The problem with giving it an extreme physical bias is that it won't be able to perform it's task against some physical walls that are extremely common in OU. By giving it a balanced offense, we allow it to do it's job to the best of it's ability: stopping the secondary. The only benefits of a straight physical bias are potentially more bulk and stronger Pursuit. A mixed spread helps achieve the majority of this CAPs goals.
As a comparison point, Toxicroak has 106/86 stats and is a big offensive force in UU thanks to Sucker Punch, Nasty Plot, Vacuum Wave, Cross Chop, etc. It's not a stellar move pool, or stats, it's having them just right to abuse.
Given that CAP9 is part Dark, there's a lot of ways we can go with Mixed stats, even if they appear unimpressive at first, if we pick a smart move pool. Besides, even if we go "somewhat physical", the upper bound of that is still pretty darn physical.
Either Mixed, possibly physical.
To punish Trickers, it isn't important to have overly high Attack since they generally have low Defense. To punish the likes of Skarmory, there is quite a need for Special Attack. Although it has been mentioned that a team mate can do the job too, that means a free set up for the opposition which is never good is they are secondary users.
To punish Trickers, it isn't important to have overly high Attack since they generally have low Defense. To punish the likes of Skarmory, there is quite a need for Special Attack. Although it has been mentioned that a team mate can do the job too, that means a free set up for the opposition which is never good is they are secondary users.
I vote for Strong Physical with S.def Bulk.
The nature of CAP9 is that it will switch in multiple times to stop/limit the impact of secondary effects. That's why I viewed a part-Ground typing as so important (immunity to SS and resistance to rocks). And it is therefore equally important that CAP9 has the defenses to take multiple attacks and live, which it cannot do if we also try to give it a good s.atk in addition to its good speed and attack.
Regarding being walled by skarmory/hippo, it's important to realize that this CAP is not meant as a wall-breaker. Its purpose is not to kill different types of walls, but to make them useless by forcing them to rely on direct damage attacks instead of secondary effect moves. It cannot accomplish this goal very well if, after forcing these walls to use direct damage attacks, it then takes a whole bunch of damage from them. We need to be able to take Blissey's ice beams, Celebi's grass knot/leaf storm (depending on the weight we settle on), Rotom's shadow balls, and even Latias' ice beam/draco meteor. This is especially important considering that if these pokemon can do enough damage by just staying in, they would have no reason to switch (making pursuit pretty pointless).
The nature of CAP9 is that it will switch in multiple times to stop/limit the impact of secondary effects. That's why I viewed a part-Ground typing as so important (immunity to SS and resistance to rocks). And it is therefore equally important that CAP9 has the defenses to take multiple attacks and live, which it cannot do if we also try to give it a good s.atk in addition to its good speed and attack.
Regarding being walled by skarmory/hippo, it's important to realize that this CAP is not meant as a wall-breaker. Its purpose is not to kill different types of walls, but to make them useless by forcing them to rely on direct damage attacks instead of secondary effect moves. It cannot accomplish this goal very well if, after forcing these walls to use direct damage attacks, it then takes a whole bunch of damage from them. We need to be able to take Blissey's ice beams, Celebi's grass knot/leaf storm (depending on the weight we settle on), Rotom's shadow balls, and even Latias' ice beam/draco meteor. This is especially important considering that if these pokemon can do enough damage by just staying in, they would have no reason to switch (making pursuit pretty pointless).
Hmm, I'm actually indesisve here, both have their benifits.
Physical will give Earthquake and Persuit as much power as possible. And Persuit is gonna need it to avoid being inferior to Scizor.
However, Earthquake and Persuit are not the only STAB options...
I'm making a yet unsupported choice, and going for Full Mixed (Yeah, it's not an option, but no more than 10 Bias physical)
While Earthquake and Persuit are decent moves, we have to remember, that Persuit isn't always gonna be useful. Not everything will switch out from CAP9. Also, most secondary users have one defence vunerable, unless they are called Celebi or Jirachi. (And even then, they invest in def, not sp.def) As a result, a mixed layout will allow use of Persuit, while allowing for the following STAB moves to be viable alone:
Physical:
Persuit
Night Slash
Earthquake
Crunch
Special:
Land Power
Dark Pulse
Then, adding things like Stone Edge, Elemental Punches (Maybe), Flamethrower/Fire Blast (Maybe), and you get a threat that can hit from either end of the spectrum.
This will make whichever side the CAP is hitting on hit harder. Best thing that can be done is make it unpredictable. Someone switches in a pokemon that is physically bulky. You use Dark Pulse on the switch. They can't wall special attacks. They either switch out, and get Persuited, or die to a second Dark Pulse, in the same vein that Tyranitar traps Latias.
Or, someone expects a special based CAP9, and the same holds true. Nothing like Blissey coming in, expecting a Dark Pulse, to be slammed by Crunch, and have it's defence lowered, or Earthquake. Blissey then switches out, and dies, or stays in, and dies.
Seeing as most of the secondary offenders are bulky, this is, I feel, the right way to go, especially as most walls pack defence EV's, while we want Persuit to actually do some damage.
Remember, most walls, once useless, will switch out. We need to have the power to make them want to switch out, not stay in, and stall to death, as they chip away our CAP's HP.
Physical will give Earthquake and Persuit as much power as possible. And Persuit is gonna need it to avoid being inferior to Scizor.
However, Earthquake and Persuit are not the only STAB options...
I'm making a yet unsupported choice, and going for Full Mixed (Yeah, it's not an option, but no more than 10 Bias physical)
While Earthquake and Persuit are decent moves, we have to remember, that Persuit isn't always gonna be useful. Not everything will switch out from CAP9. Also, most secondary users have one defence vunerable, unless they are called Celebi or Jirachi. (And even then, they invest in def, not sp.def) As a result, a mixed layout will allow use of Persuit, while allowing for the following STAB moves to be viable alone:
Physical:
Persuit
Night Slash
Earthquake
Crunch
Special:
Land Power
Dark Pulse
Then, adding things like Stone Edge, Elemental Punches (Maybe), Flamethrower/Fire Blast (Maybe), and you get a threat that can hit from either end of the spectrum.
This will make whichever side the CAP is hitting on hit harder. Best thing that can be done is make it unpredictable. Someone switches in a pokemon that is physically bulky. You use Dark Pulse on the switch. They can't wall special attacks. They either switch out, and get Persuited, or die to a second Dark Pulse, in the same vein that Tyranitar traps Latias.
Or, someone expects a special based CAP9, and the same holds true. Nothing like Blissey coming in, expecting a Dark Pulse, to be slammed by Crunch, and have it's defence lowered, or Earthquake. Blissey then switches out, and dies, or stays in, and dies.
Seeing as most of the secondary offenders are bulky, this is, I feel, the right way to go, especially as most walls pack defence EV's, while we want Persuit to actually do some damage.
Remember, most walls, once useless, will switch out. We need to have the power to make them want to switch out, not stay in, and stall to death, as they chip away our CAP's HP.
Mixed, possibly Physical.
As has been stated, in order to scare off physical walls such as Skarmory/Hippowdon/Gliscor/whoever, we need to give it a respectable Special Stat. It might not even be a problem , since we could even give it Nasty Plot(sorry for the slight poll jump). And it keeps a high attack stat for it's beloved Pursuit.
As has been stated, in order to scare off physical walls such as Skarmory/Hippowdon/Gliscor/whoever, we need to give it a respectable Special Stat. It might not even be a problem , since we could even give it Nasty Plot(sorry for the slight poll jump). And it keeps a high attack stat for it's beloved Pursuit.
Unless we start inventing moves or decide to not rely on STAB (in which case why the hell did we pick Dark as the main typing?), the special attack stat should be immediately disregarded. I'm thinking a mixed physical spread will allow CAP9 to work best with a combination of good physical attack and good HP/special defence, but either way, this thing is going to need gargantuan stats somewhere to work.
Since we went with somewhat offensive, I'm thinking we should make CAP9 easy to 2HKO with super effective hits but hard to OHKO.
Since we went with somewhat offensive, I'm thinking we should make CAP9 easy to 2HKO with super effective hits but hard to OHKO.
Wanting good Sdef doesn't mean we need to go mixed. If we make the Satk very low, around 60 or so, we can still give it the special bulk it needs while still being Physical. However, by no means should this guys be using any special attacks. He needs to be able to switch in, which necessitates having good defenses. Also, he needs to be able to switch in and punish, which is the whole premise upon which everyone chose the typing, which necessitates having good attack. So, if our CAP has two great stabs already, which are both Physical (EQ and Pursuit/Crunch) why should we sacrifice any stats to make it possible to go mixed? All that would happen is people would throw hydro pump or fire blast (if we gave him these) just so our CAP could dent Physical Defenders.
Further, most Physical Defenders only use entry hazards. Throwing taunt on out CAP (which almost EVERY dark pokemon learns) will help solve that problem. So, there's really no reason to give him Satk.
Further, most Physical Defenders only use entry hazards. Throwing taunt on out CAP (which almost EVERY dark pokemon learns) will help solve that problem. So, there's really no reason to give him Satk.
to the mixed, possibly physical people: Please try not to "bandwagon" here. Try and post only if you have something significant to contribute to the discussion. I'm hearing the same things as to why it should be picked, and quite frankly there are much less points that are being made compared to the amount of support it is getting.
because it's not going to be a wall breaker... if we try to make it be able to handle Skarmory and Forretress, it's going to compromise some other area, and ultimately it won't be as good as it could be if we just focused on Physical.
Going Physical will pretty much assure that we won't be able to touch Skarm, but it doesn't have to be able to have a definite answer to every secondary effect in the game, as long as it can shut down most of them.
I think the reason people want it to beat forretress and skarmory is because they aren't *just* walls, but they're secondary users. "wall" doesn't have much relevance to his case.
If CAP 9 has things that it cant beat, i.e Gliscor, Skarmory, Hippowdon, I think that we should be aware that attacking moves aren't the only solution to these pokemon. Rapid Spin is an example of stopping entry hazards; moves like taunt prevent these pokemon from setting up. I'm aware that admiral korski brought this up earlier, and I think it's a point that needs to be addressed further. I'm not saying that this method is obviously better than the mixed option, but mixed would make us lose out on some power we might need for the the sheer power of the pokemon itself, and not just to beat pokemon x y and z, which can be handled in another way.
Going Physical doesn't necessarily force a terribly low special attacking stat, and there are definitely ways to counteract this. Metagross, for example, is a pokemon that is Physically biased, yet has a 95 base Special Attack. Yeah, I know that Metagross has a 600 BST, but even if you take 10 base points from defense and special attack, and take off 20 from attack, you get 115/110/85 respectively, which still falls under physical.
SE moves can still do a number on some physical threats to this CAP; and it's not like this CAP is totally helpless against said pokemon. Who says it won't get something that helps against entry hazards? Hell, Skarm/Hippow/Gliscor probably won't be able to touch CAP 9 as much as CAP 9 can touch them.
EDIT: Since the discussion's a bit more even as opposed to last time, I'll give this thread a day extension.
Furthermore, just because we make it 100% physical doesn't mean it can't handle Skarmory and Forretress. Hariyama has base 120 attack and without any boosting items, it can 2HKO Skarmory after Stealth Rock with Focus Punch. By extension, this means a CB Machamp's DynamicPunch can achieve the same effect. While these may not be the ideal pokes to switch in to Skarmory, the point is that a purely physical mon is not always going to be walled by Skarmory/Hippowdon/Forretress. In fact, the only reason Skarmory would definitely wall CAP9 is resistance to one STAB and immunity to the other.
Physical for numerous reasons stated before, such as Pursuit and the fact that this pokemon is not a wall breaker.
Also important to realize, there are strong STAB special Dark and Ground moves, Dark Pulse and Earth Power which people seem to ignore and say EQ / Crunch STABS omg. Still Pursuit draws me to those vouching for physical, but lets acknowledge these moves' existences.
Also important to realize, there are strong STAB special Dark and Ground moves, Dark Pulse and Earth Power which people seem to ignore and say EQ / Crunch STABS omg. Still Pursuit draws me to those vouching for physical, but lets acknowledge these moves' existences.
Don't forget that the Physical/Special bias includes defenses. Snorlax is a powerful physical attacker that never uses special attacks. However, it is actually considered a specially biased Pokemon, due to its high sdef.
So, yes, we probably will need Mixed physical if we want this thing to have Special bulk.
Dark Pulse and Earth Power are ignored because they are the ONLY special STAB moves. Or are you suggesting that we invent another one with base power 120 and some kind of drawback?
Yes, taunt may temporarily stop Skarmory, Forry, and Hippo, but all they have to do is switch out and then switch back in, or hit us with a STAB Brave Bird/ EQ while we do nothing(Skarmory) or insignificant damage(Hippo). Really, the only way this could win against Hippo is to give it good Sp. Atk or give it reliable recovery, which would be kind of weird on an offensive pokemon. Sure, we can spin the hazards away, but that is a pretty much wasted movespace on CAP 9 and it would just be a never ending stall war. I think the only way to completely stop these secondary users is to get rid of them, as just scaring them off means they will just come back later.
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