CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 6 - Stat Rating Discussion

HD · Oct 9, 2009

familyguyman said:
You can easily make an Excellent stat spread without 90 in a few stats. Being Excellent won't make this a jack of all trades, unless we decide to do so. What it will let us do is, should we desire, take a Very Good stat spread and augment certain areas to help cover CAP9s big weaknesses, a reason I was against Ground to begin with. If we don't have defensively strong typing (CAP9 is mediocre), we will need good defensive stats or we risk compromising the competitive value of the Pokemon. If the community doesn't want super stats, they can still tone down the overall spread of an Excellent Pokemon to be that of a Very Good (420 = Excellent, 419 = Very Good).

If we're going to have a 400+ Pokemon who is Very Good, we might as well open up the possibilities by going Excellent. Bad defensive typing and decent bulk might not even be enough. For example, Cyclohm is a 418 Pokemon, moderate bias to defense but the Ground + Ice weaknesses greatly compromise this defensive spread. I don't want defensive typing to compromise a Pokemon again, even if CAP9 is far from a tank. If we "overboard" to compensate, then so be it. I think most here would rather have an overpowered CAP than a cool but impractical CAP.

Being excellent makes it have above average stats, with extra points in unneeded areas. These extra points. while they may be good, aren't needed. We need a sfar as fulfilling the concept, and a little more for a few extras. We need to fulfill the concept, and possibly a few extras. Excellent gives us a lot of unnessary things.
lol. Those are the boundries. We're not going to make a fucking excellent pokemon that can't go above 444 or some other shit. If it's excellent, we're not going to cut the range in half. Waht you ask for is going to be the FULL thing.
We want to make CaPs that fulfill there concept. We don't want to make an overpowered pokemon. OK? We just don't. Look at Syclant. We could waste a lot of time, only to nerf it later. And about the cool but impractical part. Our job is to explore the metagame. To do that, we make Pokemon that can either fulfill or fail there chosen job. We note the failure or success, and we learn whether that job is fit for the metagame or not. This is the purpose of CaP.

petrie911 · Oct 9, 2009

So you're saying that because we choose Excellent, we are obliged to make the BSR as close to 580 as possible? Because we really aren't. We are perfectly allowed to have a 460 or so BSR. In fact, considering that Plus chooses the spreads that will be voted on, it's quite likely that we would not have some 580 BSR Pokemon. Nevermind the fact that, with the taboo on putting BST above 555, it's actually rather hard to reasonably get the BSR that high.

familyguyman · Oct 9, 2009

HD said:
Being excellent makes it have above average stats, with extra points in unneeded areas. These extra points. while they may be good, aren't needed. We need a sfar as fulfilling the concept, and a little more for a few extras. We need to fulfill the concept, and possibly a few extras. Excellent gives us a lot of unnessary things.

Unneeded according to you. As for fulfilling the concept, it is a rather general concept to fulfill. IMO, it's basically established that CAP9 is to punish Trickers, stop some status and be aggressive against secondary users. Therefore, getting flat out walled by key Pokemon is totally unacceptable. By choosing Ground, we've opened ourselves up to some key weaknesses making hard countering Celebi, Latias, Starmie and some Rotom no longer a guarantee. If CAP9 can't dent Skarmory or do much to Forretress, it's going to need some awesome stats to even get used, let alone fulfill the concept.

lol. Those are the boundries. We're not going to make a fucking excellent pokemon that can't go above 444 or some other shit. If it's excellent, we're not going to cut the range in half. Waht you ask for is going to be the FULL thing.

I don't understand this point. My point is that if the community really wants to keep a more defined role, Excellent does not prevent this, it only opens more doors for us to explore.

We want to make CaPs that fulfill there concept. We don't want to make an overpowered pokemon. OK? We just don't. Look at Syclant. We could waste a lot of time, only to nerf it later. And about the cool but impractical part. Our job is to explore the metagame. To do that, we make Pokemon that can either fulfill or fail there chosen job. We note the failure or success, and we learn whether that job is fit for the metagame or not. This is the purpose of CaP.

Syclant was nerfed a looooooong time ago before Scizor got BP and everything and their mother started running Fire moves in response to this. It's hard to make an impact when the #1 used Pokemon hard counters you and the best counter to that Pokemon counters you; Superpower or not. My point is that if CAP9 can't even compete, we won't learn anything. We won't even know if it succeeded or failed. If CAP9 is overpowered, it can still not fulfill it's role if it's discovered it doesn't stop any secondaries and ends up doing other things like being a late game sweeper or something. If it's underpowered we might not be able to differentiate between not stopping secondaries and sucking in general. Either way, we will still be able to determine a success so why shouldn't we avoid the possibility of the whole process being invalidated because CAP9 just can't compete?

Erazor · Oct 10, 2009

I have a 550 BST, with 498 BSR, "Excellent" spread, and it does not look to be broken. Since Physical is the bias, I gave it 50 SpAtk and some solid bulk and attack power. I vote for Excellent - frankly, CAP 9 needs it to be able to deal with the multitude of secondary users. Being weak to some of the most common moves in the game, it needs bulk to avoid being one-shotted. And it needs speed to be able to scare of some of the faster users. Very Good confines it IMO.