np: UU - The Boys Are Back in Town

[Random Pizzaman]

Gallade has no true counters, he does however have several viable checks.
Raikou can be countered and checked in a variety of ways.
Alakazam is countered by a handful of Pokemon and checked fairly well as well.
Rhyperior hates all the Water/ Grass moves being tossed around...
Honchkrow has no counters, but checking him isn't that hard.
"Overcentralization" in the lead spot is such a bs statement against Froslass. Ambipom creates that more than anything. "Sure you can take on Lass, whoever, whoever, ect... but Ambipom rapes it."

threats that demand very specific counters

Perhaps I'm just being foolish... please let me know who these threats and specific counters are.

Well, for one, Spiritomb is everywhere and now running Shadow Sneak and attack EVs, and Tauros and Swellow are actually switching into Gallade, something which I'd call specialized to beat Gallade.
Silly things like Camerupt keep popping into discussions about Raikou counters, but Raikou I'd say doesnt have specialized counters.
Alakazam- See Gallade.
Honchkrow are running HP Grass to beat Rhyperior.
Super Bulky Arcanine and 3 other physical walls now constitute stall.
And things like Cloyster w/ Rock Blast, Sceptile, Anti-Lead 'Lass and even MORE Ambipom are popping up to beat Froslass.

Sure, not "overly specific", but you cant say the metagame hasnt developed specialized sets to beat those Pokemon.

 

[Mattman324]

Silly things like Camerupt keep popping into discussions about Raikou counters, but Raikou I'd say doesnt have specialized counters.

Umm... don't you remember Advanced? Camerupt was known as the best Raikou counter back then, so much that some would run HP Water! The only thing different now about his countering is that Crunch is Physical, so Raikou has to rely on Shadow Balls and Hidden Powers.

 

[M BLADE]

-Blog mode on-

I just fought a noob that insisted that Aggron Head Smash wouldn't KO Walrein... oh my god...
Even worse is that he compared Scizor Bullet Punch with Head Smash saying that "it can even survive a Bullet Punch from Scizor and put a Sub, so you wouldn't KO it with Aggron without a crit"...
Lol like Scizor Bullet Punch is even close to Head Smash Aggron's power...

-Blog mode off-


Ok, any thoughts on a lead Ampharos? 115 base attack and nice bulkyness can make Ampharos quite a nice lead. Especially with Discharge at his disposal, giving you a 30% chance to not die from Destiny Bond, and giving you the edge against the likes of Coyster, Omastar, Ambipom and even Alakazam leads...
I use a Specs one. Only problem is that he's going to be locked on Discharge giving the enemy a chance to set up with Ground types.

Other than that, it even hurts Uxie leads with Signal Beam...if it Tricks a Scarf, you're free to attack while Uxie has to switch.
AND to top it off it can take the fire leads too(Arcanine and especially Moltres thinking Overheat KO this thing)

Any thoughts?

 

[Stagnant]

I can see where you are coming from, Heysup. However in the case of Chansey, Chansey can hurt or cripple Gallade with S-Toss or T-Wave. T-Wave kills any speed advantage he has and S-Toss rips off over a third of his health. It's not like prediction is needed to do either of the two.

Anyways, I don't feel like diving to deep into arguments but I'll make some comments....

Specializing to beat a top threat isn't any thing new.

You can't compare Yanmega to anything in UU right now. However, if you would like to compare him to another Pokemon that has been in UU, albiet breifly, would be Staraptor. However, I'd assume that they were nominated under the wrong charecteristic. Should of been under support but it was probably Offensive.

That lead Ampharos made me regret not using a Ground Type- Poke...

 

[M BLADE]

I can see where you are coming from, Heysup. However in the case of Chansey, Chansey can hurt or cripple Gallade with S-Toss or T-Wave. T-Wave kills any speed advantage he has and S-Toss rips off over a third of his health. It's not like prediction is needed to do either of the two.

Anyways, I don't feel like diving to deep into arguments but I'll make some comments....

Specializing to beat a top threat isn't any thing new.

You can't compare Yanmega to anything in UU right now. However, if you would like to compare him to another Pokemon that has been in UU, albiet breifly, would be Staraptor. However, I'd assume that they were nominated under the wrong charecteristic. Should of been under support but it was probably Offensive.

That lead Ampharos made me regret not using a Ground Type- Poke...

I remember lol

You were using a Corsola lead... probably with Rock Blast...Sucker Punch...Mirro Coat? Dunno...

Anyway, i feel that Raikou gives me more problems than Gallade... why? Basically speed. And my sucky predictions of his Hidden Power.
But yes, speed is the main problem i have with Raikou. Basically, sort of a UU CM Latias.

Most Gallade are only problematic to me late game where i tend to leave slow pokes for last. He's too slow and can't use a stronger priority(anything not weak to ghost and faster will finish Gallade off IF IT STAYS. Most aren't going to stay logically. Looks like Heracross, which destroys stall through brute force, not needing to go mixed or things like that.

And Honchrow is annoying. I almost always have to sacrifice one poke to see if it's Scarfed or not. It's like the Salamence of UU.

And finally, Froslass. Rarely seen outside of the lead position, it's like the UU Aerodactyl. It was born to be a suicide lead. It has some use outside of that, but rarely people uses it(maybe because there's Mismagius, who's way better than Froslass outside of the lead position).

I would appreciate if they go back to BL(that makes UU more stable), but if they don't, i just have to deal with it. Oh well...

 

[Thund91]

Ok, any thoughts on a lead Ampharos? 115 base attack and nice bulkyness can make Ampharos quite a nice lead. Especially with Discharge at his disposal, giving you a 30% chance to not die from Destiny Bond, and giving you the edge against the likes of Coyster, Omastar, Ambipom and even Alakazam leads...
I use a Specs one. Only problem is that he's going to be locked on Discharge giving the enemy a chance to set up with Ground types.

Other than that, it even hurts Uxie leads with Signal Beam...if it Tricks a Scarf, you're free to attack while Uxie has to switch.
AND to top it off it can take the fire leads too(Arcanine and especially Moltres thinking Overheat KO this thing)

Any thoughts?

I've used Specs Amphy but never in the lead position. It was one of my favorite things to use. Definately one of those pokes that adds color to your team without beind dead weight.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

If using a Specs Ampharos, you have to be dead sure that you are not using a set completely outclassed by Raikou. Raikou has the same special attack and physical bulk, along with slightly more special bulk and TONS more speed. Focus Blast seems to be the only decent selling point for a Specs Ampharos, so you have to make sure you are getting the maximum value out of that particular move if using it over Raikou. Focus Blast is certainly a good move for Registeel / Umbreon etc that Raikou would love to have as an option, but the miss rate and free setup potential for big threats like Mismagius can be offputting.

I guess Static can be occasionally useful for Ambipom / Honchkrow etc, but it is a situational advantage at best. Focus Blast is the only real reason I'd pick Amphy over 'Kou for a Specs set.

 

[M BLADE]

If using a Specs Ampharos, you have to be dead sure that you are not using a set completely outclassed by Raikou. Raikou has the same special attack and physical bulk, along with slightly more special bulk and TONS more speed. Focus Blast seems to be the only decent selling point for a Specs Ampharos, so you have to make sure you are getting the maximum value out of that particular move if using it over Raikou. Focus Blast is certainly a good move for Registeel / Umbreon etc that Raikou would love to have as an option, but the miss rate and free setup potential for big threats like Mismagius can be offputting.

I guess Static can be occasionally useful for Ambipom / Honchkrow etc, but it is a situational advantage at best. Focus Blast is the only real reason I'd pick Amphy over 'Kou for a Specs set.

On a lead position:
Static+Discharge means a good chance of paralizing thr enemy. Focus Blast to take any weird lead(Umbreon, Steelix and the like). HP grass to hit Omastar/Cloyster leads(it's better than trying to Discharge them, since grounds are almost always switching into Ampharos)
Overall bulkyness means it can take some strong attacks
Low speed means it can lure the leads to attack Ampharos. With Raikou they would just switch out.
Focus Blast. Main reason of why Ampharos is better for leads.(There's Power Gem too, but WTF who uses that? Waste of moveset lol)
And finally: Ampharos can afford to go Modest while Raikou can, but it wouldn't be so effective as it would be with a Timid nature.
So it, theorically speaking, gives Ampharos a little more power than Raikou leads.

Ampharos is better than Raikou in a lead position IMO.
The position i use it.

Outside of the lead position:
Raikou is WAY better than Ampharos, there's no doubt of that.
Even with Focus Blast, Ampharos won't sweep. NEVER.
Raikou is easy to set up and gets lots of sweeps.


Don't misunderstand, Raikou IS better, but in i can assure that Ampharos is more suited to be a lead than Raikou. Even if it has only 2 things going for it, those 2 things are the key to success for Ampharos leads.

Outside of leads? Specs Raikou is better. Non-Specs Raikou is better. Scarf Raikou is better. Toxic Orb Raikou is better...ok, no.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Well defensive support Ampharos has Heal Bell and Seismic Toss to distinguish it from Raikou, and makes better use of Static. But those are obviously out of place on a Specs set, which is what we're referring to.

I was just making sure that you actually have a good use for Focus Blast, as otherwise it wouldn't be worth overlooking Raikou's obvious advantages.

I have actually used a Raikou lead before, but that was for Screens rather than as a Specs attacker.

 

[Heysup]

Raikou beats Froslass, Ampharos loses vs Froslass. That's all you need to know in order to decide which one is more suited for the lead position, because losing to Froslass is ALWAYS bad.

 

[M BLADE]

Raikou beats Froslass, Ampharos loses vs Froslass. That's all you need to know in order to decide which one is more suited for the lead position, because losing to Froslass is ALWAYS bad.

Discharge means 30% chance of winning.
Also Raikou won't beat Ambipom lead. Ampharos at least has Focus Blast... and Static. AND it can be Modest to hurt more than Raikou.
Raikou needs to be Timid to beat Froslass and to at least get some chance to beat Ambipom. Tiny chances.
Unless you try to use a bulky Raikou... and Ampharos, again, is best to take this task(even if Raikou is a little bulkier)

 

[FlareBlitz]

I've had some success with a lead Azumarill:
Azumarril @ Leftovers
Adamant, Max atk with the rest of the EVs suited towards maximizing physical defense (don't remember them right now and don't feel like getting on Shoddy).
-Waterfall
-Aqua Jet
-Superpower
-Toxic

It handily kills Frosslass with Waterfall + Aqua Jet, can survive an LO Fake out + Return from Ambi and ohko with Superpower. If up against a bulky lead it can't really deal with on its own (Uxie), it can Toxic them and still serve as an effective revenge killer and bulky water later on. I'm thinking about switching around Toxic with Ice Punch to offer better coverage and Leftovers for Lum Berry so I can stay in on Spiritomb without fearing burn, but the current set seems to work very well.

 

[Thund91]

You can always try Encore to screw up set up leads.

 

[Heysup]

I'm getting absolutely owned by my own Froslass set :(. All of the nay-sayers need to try it.

 

[BurtonEarny]

I'm getting absolutely owned by my own Froslass set :(. All of the nay-sayers need to try it.

I have been using it on a team for a little while... I like it better than the standard one in almost every way since, lets face it, destiny bond was never incredibly difficult to play around. However, I still feel like people prepare for her like crazy which drastically reduces her effectiveness no matter the set/ spread.

 

[Heysup]

I have been using it on a team for a little while... I like it better than the standard one in almost every way since, lets face it, destiny bond was never incredibly difficult to play around. However, I still feel like people prepare for her like crazy which drastically reduces her effectiveness no matter the set/ spread.

Yea, but for example, I prepared for "just" the max Speed variant (U-turn then Dugtrio for the KO), and you set spikes up on me, which made my team cry after a couple turns :(.

Lots of people only prepare for the max Speed variant actually. Anyone with Spiritomb or Ambipom as a lead basically gets screwed when they meet Proslass.

 

[A.P.]

Lol, I don't prepare for either, and still pwn them.

ScarfMoltres is brilliant as a lead, so long as those pesky Ambipoms aren't there.

Cloyster, Rhyperior are OHKO'd, both Tomb and Lass are 2HKO'd, and can't do anything back.

Alakazam may be a mild problem, but I haven't met any yet.

 

[LonelyNess]

I used a Scarf Moltres as a lead a while back, and you will actually kill most Ambipoms after only taking like 30% from Fake Out because they all assume they outspeed.

Hi

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Anyone with Spiritomb or Ambipom as a lead basically gets screwed when they meet Proslass.

To be honest with you, those normal lead Spiritombs with Shadow Sneak and Pursuit suck hard. If not using TrickBand, lead Spiritomb should go mixed with Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball (if sticking with Pursuit). A lot of people also seem to think that Spiritomb's Pursuit capabilities are essential for every team, which isn't always the case.

Froslass and the like aside, other common leads like Cloyster and Uxie also get virtually free setup against such pathetic offensive output. Just not worth it IMO.

 

[A.P.]

I used a Scarf Moltres as a lead a while back, and you will actually kill most Ambipoms after only taking like 30% from Fake Out because they all assume they outspeed.

Meh, it would be worth it with a spinner, but it's a lot harder without one, since you only get one switch into SR. But how much bulk did your ScarfTres run? I don't have access to my team right now, but I know mine ran enough to outspeed Jolly +2 Rhyperior, and consequentially neutral-natured +1 Base 80s. After maxing out Special Attack, I dumped the rest into HP, save 4 EVs which I allocated back into speed, to have an odd HP. It was somewhere around 252 SpA/80 HP/172 Spd, but a few EVs this way or that for Spd/HP.

To be honest with you, those normal lead Spiritombs with Shadow Sneak and Pursuit suck hard. If not using TrickBand, lead Spiritomb should go mixed with Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball (if sticking with Pursuit). A lot of people also seem to think that Spiritomb's Pursuit capabilities are essential for every team, which isn't always the case.

Froslass and the like aside, other common leads like Cloyster and Uxie also get virtually free setup against such pathetic offensive output. Just not worth it IMO.

Lol, LeadTomb is pretty bad, IMO. It's set-up bait for so many Pokémon, and a free switch for that many more.

And to continue that Shiftry discussion we were having earlier, the SD set really works. : )

But it needs a major amount of support. I've gotten to 1400 in a short while on an alt, but I've lost far too many battles. The few games I swept the entire team with Shiftry, I nearly cried (lol). I may be encouraged to try a CB set, though, as it has a fairly good movepool (Seed Bomb, Sucker Punch, Low Kick, Explosion).

And to continue my blogging mode, Swellow is ridiculously good, as far oo many people underestimate its capabilities, and send out stuff like Weezing and Milotic (assuming that their Rock/Steel is dead), only to take like 60% from boosted Facade. Its ridiculous speed is an excellent check to much of the metagame. It takes a little balls to fully abuse it, but if you can get it in on stuff like Missy and Rotom Shadow Balls (BB does > 50% on the second, w/ Guts), or an EQ, your opponent will be hard-pressed to stop your rampage.

 

[Heysup]

To be honest with you, those normal lead Spiritombs with Shadow Sneak and Pursuit suck hard. If not using TrickBand, lead Spiritomb should go mixed with Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball (if sticking with Pursuit). A lot of people also seem to think that Spiritomb's Pursuit capabilities are essential for every team, which isn't always the case.

Froslass and the like aside, other common leads like Cloyster and Uxie also get virtually free setup against such pathetic offensive output. Just not worth it IMO.

Well then what does that tell you about the situation that the lead slot has come to? Lead Spiritomb is a desperate, but some times necessary gesture. You either beat Froslass or lose. In order to beat Froslass, you will often get absolutely forked versus other leads (such as Cloyster, Omastar etc). The only "realistic" and best counter for Froslass and spikes in general is to just carry a hard hitting Rapid Spinner, such as Kabutops or even Hitmonlee.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Well then what does that tell you about the situation that the lead slot has come to? Lead Spiritomb is a desperate, but some times necessary gesture. You either beat Froslass or lose. In order to beat Froslass, you will often get absolutely forked versus other leads (such as Cloyster, Omastar etc). The only "realistic" and best counter for Froslass and spikes in general is to just carry a hard hitting Rapid Spinner, such as Kabutops or even Hitmonlee.

No I didn't mean it like that, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you were so quick to twist it that way. I was saying that a lot of people are using lead Spiritomb badly. They should really be running a more powerful and reliable STAB attack like Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse so that they have some decent response to the likes of Cloyster, Omastar, Uxie and more unorthodox Froslass builds like yours. The Shadow Sneak / Pursuit / WoW / Pain Split or similar set I see so often is a right pile of shit from a lead perspective, and almost completely wasteful.

Speaking of Froslass, I have been trying out a Modest LO Froslass as a lead on my new team. Though there is nothing possibly broken about this set, she is very useful in a lot of situations. Beats the most common Froslass builds handily, as well as most Ambipom, with Ice Shard finishing off. Can also do massive damage to Cloyster and Omastar leads with Shadow Ball, allowing her to pull her weight offensively for the team even when the situation makes Spikes setup difficult.

 

[Heysup]

No I didn't mean it like that, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that you were so quick to twist it that way. I was saying that a lot of people are using lead Spiritomb badly. They should really be running a more powerful and reliable STAB attack like Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse so that they have some decent response to the likes of Cloyster, Omastar, Uxie and more unorthodox Froslass builds like yours. The Shadow Sneak / Pursuit / WoW / Pain Split or similar set I see so often is a right pile of shit from a lead perspective, and almost completely wasteful.

Speaking of Froslass, I have been trying out a Modest LO Froslass as a lead on my new team. Though there is nothing possibly broken about this set, she is very useful in a lot of situations. Beats the most common Froslass builds handily, as well as most Ambipom, with Ice Shard finishing off. Can also do massive damage to Cloyster and Omastar leads with Shadow Ball, allowing her to pull her weight offensively for the team even when the situation makes Spikes setup difficult.

I know what you meant, but come on, that was a pretty valid claim. It is a known fact that Spiritomb (shitty as it is), is a common lead "just" because it can deal with Froslass, regardless of how shitty it is. Spiritomb is a prime example of "over-specialization". Anyway, this stuff belongs in the Froslass thread :O

 

[Stagnant]

'Overcentralization' in the lead spot is such a bs statement against Froslass. Ambipom creates that more than anything. "Sure you can take on Lass, whoever, whoever, ect... but Ambipom rapes it."

This. I just don't understand why "overcentralization" is used to argue against Froslass. Because as I stated a few posts ago Ambipom centralizes the lead portion of the metagame more so then any other Pokemon and has been doing so for a long time.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

And I was under the impression that Spiritomb was used as a lead to beat Ambipom and Alakazam leads too, the former being far more common. Otherwise there would be little advantage to running it there over one of the many other good leads capable of beating Froslass.

I guess that's just me being idiotic and ignorant once again.