Time to storm the ladder! (OU RMT)

[Delko]

Time to Storm the Ladder!​

Introduction:

Hello

As most of you might know, I am Delko (previously BlackScizor). I have made a decent amount of teams (as you can see in my signature) but they never seem to get to high on the ladder (my highest CRE is barely 1400). So I made my mind up and I was determined to make a team that could do better (I wanted to reach the 1500’s). With that in mind I started with building this team.

From experience I know that the most dangerous threat in OU is definitely Lucario (with the SD set of course). The only Lucario I ever used in a team is a Choice Specs Lucario. After some eye witnessing at the destructive power that the SD set could be, I made my mind. Lucario shall be the core in my team to storm the ladder.

So I made this team in order to support Lucario, that makes him able to sweep late-game but hopefully sooner. I started with exploring opposing teams to see how my opponents try to counter Lucario. I’ve came up with the conclusion that following pokemon are used to counter Lucario:

- Gliscor
- Gyarados
- Jirachi
- Salamence
- Rotom
- Metagross
- Hippowdon

*Note: this are the most common counters. I did not listed pokémon the occurred just in a few battles (Celebi, Bronzong, …).

After this list I knew who could Lucario ice-cold. Although the solution, having a counter for all of these threats, is not as simple as I though at first. I do not only need a counter for all these but also pokémon that lures them out. It is vital I know my opponents entire team before I try to set up with Lucario. Therefore my other member should be reasonably bulky (on both sides) and to avoid gimmick sets, a back-up is not a luxury. With this all in mind I started building my team.

In depth view:

Gliscor @ leftovers/ jolly/ sand veil
252 HP, 36 Def, 220 Spe​

- Taunt
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Roost​

Why this pokemon:​

Gliscor is the ideal lead for this team. Lucario appreciate the support of entry hazards and Gliscor is able to set Stealth Rock up most of the time while preventing slower leads from doing so with Taunt. With Roost it has some form of reliable recovery. Earthquake is my sole attack move and while it’s STAB’ed, it still is resisted by all flying types and pokemon with the Levitate ability, not to mention types that resist it (grass, bug). Nevertheless it is a solid option to counter the majority of possible opposing leads (Heatran, Metagross, …). Although I had considered Aerial Ace and U-turn in his moveslot, I’ve kept it plain and simple with the anti-stall Gliscor set from the analysis. Gliscor is bulky enough to come in later in the game to set SR up again (if they might have been spinned away), or to take on dangerous threats like opposing Lucario. It is his ability to come in again and again why I have opted for the Sand Veil ability. With Sandstorm support from Tyranitar, his evasion is raised by one level. This way he can come out of tricky situations unharmed (eg. against Tyraniboah with Ice Beam). His other ability, Hyper Cutter is completely useless because the two most common pokémon with Intimidate are Gyarados and Salamence, both immune to my only attack move, Earthquake. Although Gliscor is quite bulky with the given EV’s and his ability to Roost he can still use the little Leftovers recovery every turn.

What to do against opposing leads:​

: I’ll switch to Tyranitar who breaks its Sash due to Sandstorm and I Pursuit it the next turn if he either Taunts me or if he uses SR. If it is one of those Dual Screen leads it will probably stay in so Crunch will be my best option here. I always hope it doesn’t carry Explosion or U-turn.

: I can Taunt but most opponents expect that so I might use Earthquake instead or try to set up my own Stealth Rocks.

: Same as Metagross, I can Taunt but most opponents expect that so I might use Earthquake instead or try to set up my own Stealth Rocks

: I’ll switch to Gyarados on the predictable Draco Meteor who can threaten it with Stone Edge. If Dragonite is not packing Fire Blast/ Flamethrower I’ll go to Forretress to set up.

: Since most of them have almost the same moveset as me (Roar over Taunt, Slack Off over Roost) they can’t really harm me. I’ll Taunt and go to Gyarados.

: I’ll go to Gyarados to take the Fake Out and scarf it away with letting them believe I’m trying to set up on ape with DD, only to launch a powerful Waterfall.

: Most Roserade leads carry HP ice these days to counter anti-lead nite as well as outspeeding their HP fire comrades. So if they are without HP Fire I’ll go to Forretress to set up. After Gliscor is put to sleep of course.

: Can’t actually touch Gliscor, but I can’t touch him neither. My safest bet is Rotom-c here to Will-o-wisp it (or another possible switch-in) and if I get Taunted, Discharge will work as well.

: A dangerous enemy, although they will lay down Rocks first most of the time. Those who are scarfed must switch after that, so I can lay down my own Stealth Rocks or go with a STAB’ed, super effective Earthquake. If they Iron Head, trying to flinch me to death, I’ll go to Gyarados.

: They will be expecting the Taunt in most occasions, so instead I go to Rotom-c. Opponents will think that because I switched to the cutter form Rotom I will probably go for a Leaf Storm and switch out. But they are wrong. I Will-o-wisp the incoming counter (who more then often is indeed a Tyranitar) what will cripple it.

Synergy:​

: Suicune​

: Scizor, Suicune, Lucario​

Changes:​

I've give Gliscor 4 extra EV's in Spe (taken from Def) so it can outspeed opposing Gliscor. Credits go to Tenzuku!

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Tyranitar @ expert belt/ hasty/ sandsteam
252 Atk, 48 SAtk, 208 Spe​

- Pursuit
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Super Power​

Why this pokemon:​

As listed above you can see that Lucario has a lot of counters. So I needed something to lure them out. After some tests (obviously with a a large number of different teams, both heavy offensive and heavy stall) I noticed that one pokemon in particular was luring out almost the some pokemon that are used to counter Lucario. That pokemon was Tyranitar.

The first time I tested Tyranitar in this team it was the Choice Band version. But after some battles I concluded that the lack of being able to switch between moves was giving me a hard time to keep Tyranitar alive (my opponents always seem to overpredict me, forcing me to switch Tyranitar out again, which causes another member of the team to take some damage or even worse, status). So I was thinking, what if I was to use the Bait Tar set from the analysis. It lures in the counters that Lucario has (Expert Belt let’s people believe Tyranitar is actually the CB’er) but it also gives him a fair chance of countering them. It is also worth to mention that Lucario appreciate weather support (of course Sandstorm to which he is immune) and coincidence or not, Tyranitar offers this through his ability Sand Stream.

Tyranitar’s most common switch-ins (Scizor, Tyranitar (probably a real CB’er or DD’er) and Breloom) always came in after I Pursuit’ed something to death, trying to get an easy set up, only to be disappointed and slaughtered by Bait Tar. I outspeed Scizor who could threaten me with Super Power or U-turn and get an easy OHKO with Flamethrower. Opposing Tyranitar will be switch-ins after Pursuit as well. Trying to force me out and do some serious damage to another member or to get a DD-up. CB-tar is outspeed and OHKO’ed by Super Power. DD-tars will try to get a Dragon Dance of and experience the same faith as the CB’ed brothers. Breloom comes out often as well trying to get a Spore or Substitute of. Adamant Breloom will be outsped and OHKO’ed by Flamethrower. I used to have Ice Beam but since this Tyranitar is able to outspeed the defensive Rotom-a form (and Pursuit is not a OHKO) Crunch offered me better damage before being completely crippled by a Will-o-wisp or Thunder Wave. I also tried Fire Blast over Flamethrower but the loss of accuracy (and so giving some important misses) isn’t worth it. Most pokemon that died from Fire Blast do so to from Flamethrower.

Synergy:​

: Suicune​

: Gliscor, Rotom-c​

: Scizor, Rotom-c, Lucario​

: Gliscor, Rotom-c​

: Gliscor, Scizor, Lucario​

: Scizor, Lucario​

Changes:​

Crunch has been replaced by Dark Pulse so I don't get suprised by random burns. Dark Pulse can also make people believe I'm carrying Specs. so they'll bring out Blissey only to get ownder by Super Power. Credits go to DarkCyberElf.

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Suicune @ leftovers/ bold/ pressure
252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe​

- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Rest​

Why this pokemon:

Originally I had Choice Band Gyarados here but after a variety of suggestions I replaced him with Suicune. Gyarados had the job to lure out counters for Lucario (Rotom-a, …). Suicune does almost the same the same job but instead of KO’ing them or scare them away Suicune can set up on them. And to be honest it does so relatively well. Both Rotom-h and Latias are set up bait for Suicune since the best the can muster is Trick me, and this won’t even mind me after a couple of Calm Minds. Scarfed Rotom is OHKO’ed by a +1 Surf and Ice Beam will hopefully 2HKO Latias. Suicune also has an easier time switching in and out again due to Stealth Rock neutrality. While with Gyarados I had to relay on Forretress and his Rapid Spin to get a safe switch-in. I also had a problem with Salamence and after Stealth Rock Gyarados had the risk of OHKO’ed by Draco Meteor or Outrage. Suicune survives a Draco Meteor and a +1 Outrage and can OHKO Mence with Ice Beam.

Suicune also doesn’t mind his place in a team with Sandstorm support, as Leftovers neutralize SS damage. With Rest Suicune is hard to take down and he will most likely stay around for a very long time. The Suicune – Gliscor combination also makes sure that enemy Tyranitar will have a hard time staying around. Gyarados couldn’t get a safe switch-in out of fear for Stone Edge, while Suicune doesn’t mind switching in on it. Gyarados was immune to Toxic Spikes and with Rest so is Suicune. I often miss the Intimidate ability of Gyarados, especially when facing a strong physical sweeper as Scizor. But Pressure has his positive sides too. Machamp will be running out of Dynamic Punch more easily and Stone Edge from Tyranitar will be ran out of PP quickly as well.

Synergy:​

: Scizor, Lucario​

: Gliscor, Rotom-c​

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Scizor @ choice band/ adamant/ technician
248 HP, 252 Atk, 8 Spe​

- Bullet Punch
- Pursuit
- U-turn
- Super Power​

Why this pokemon:

With the disappearing of Gyarados, I needed a strong physical attacker. Choice Band Scizor seemed like the perfect candidate since Gyarados was also my Choice Bander. Scizor is the most used pokemon in OU and for a reason. With Technician, a Choice Band, his high attack stat and and a STAB’ed priority move that can KO al lot of threats in one hit. His can also spam incredible powerful U-turns that dent’s hardly everything. Only one weakness and reasonable defences also benefit him. Standard EV’s are used on the Standard CB set.

Scizor most common counters are almost the same as those for Lucario. Rotom-a, Heatran, Gyarados all stand a decent chance against Scizor. While Scizor lures them out so I have awareness that my opponents carries a counter for Lucario I can counter them in return. Rotom-a and Heatran are set up bait for Suicune and Gyarados is countered by my own Rotom-w, even Dragon Dance versions. Since I lack a decent revenge killer Scizor is my main man at countering things like DD-mence and DD-tar. If Lucario fails hit duty for some weird reason, my opponent will be weakened enough to be finished of by Scizor. The same goes the other way around.

Scizor has replaced Forretress, which Toxic Spikes had the wrong effect on the team (I can no longer Will-o-wisp strong physical attackers like Tyranitar). The only bad thing I have noticed is that without the Shed Shell Magnezone is a little more dangerous. The change of Forretress - Scizor has changed the type of team from rather semi-stallish to a little more offensive orientated.

Synergy:​

: Suicune, Tyranitar​

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Rotom-c @ leftovers/ bold/ levitate
252 HP, 252 Def, 6 Spe​

- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Will-o-wisp
- Thunderbolt​

Why this pokemon:​

With Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock support which will help Lucario is his sweep, it is necessary that those entry hazards are kept on the field. This can only be done by using an anti-spinner. From regular tests I also noticed that a good status absorber would be nice on my team as well. So a good anti-spinner that could apply the Rest-talk strategy isn’t a hard one to find. Rotom-a is the perfect guy for this job. First I had the heat form just to scare away Scizor. But since I have Will-o-wisp, it’s not that good to scare Scizor away. If he comes in on a Thunderbolt, trying to Pursuit me (or U-turning, anticipating a switch) I cripple it with Will-o-wisp. As you all might know, a burned Scizor is useless. Rotom-h also tended to lure in Heatran (expecting Overheat), so I could cripple them with Discharge (hopefully a Paralysis). Rotom-c lures less Heatran out but I can scare of bulky waters and bulky grounds by letting them believe I have Leaf Storm. This will also scare away Swampert leads that could have gotten their Stealth Rock up (so when I switch-in, I’m at full health. This way my opponent can not see I have Leftovers) and makes my opponent go to a Scarf Rotom counter (most likely this will be CBtar trying to go for a Puruit). I did use Leaf Storm at first but because I ran out of moves I decided to drop it. Discharge and max HP gives me a good Gyarados counter (although +1 Gyarados will flee most of the time expecting scarf. I guess they didn’t notice Leftover recovery). I had Thunderbolt at first but seeing as Discharge has 20% more chance of paralysing, I went with Discharge (the drop of power isn’t that too big of a deal).

Although I don’t have a change to Rotom-a directly, the SDef EV’s allows me to switch into it much easier (and scaring it away). Scarfed Latias trying to Thunderbolt Gyarados is another thing I could switch into with relatively ease. Latias will be forced to switch out, allowing me burn (or paralyse) the incoming counter. With a Sand Stream on the field I opted for Leftovers as the hold item. This will neglect the Sandstorm damage every turn. Of course the Rest + Sleep Talk combination will allow Rotom-c to be healthy for a long time, while not being completely useless and stuck in to turns of sleep. While Sleep Talking I’ve 60% chance to attack with my double status moves, making my opponent think twice before trying to set up on Rotom-c.

Synergy:​

: Tyranitar, Scizor, Lucario​

: Tyranitar, Scizor, Lucario​

Changes:​

Changed Rotom-c to Rotom-w. This will lure out less Heatran (they fear Hydro Pump) so Will-o-wisp could cripple more. Because Heatran is a less common switch-in now, Discharge has been replaced by Thunderbolt for the extra damage. Credits go to ThePowerWithin.

SDef EV's has been added to Def to make a better Gyarados counter. Credits go to MetaNite.

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Lucario @ life orb/ adamant/ inner focus
252 Atk, 4 Def, 252 Spe​

- Sword Dance
- Close Combat
- Extreme Speed
- Crunch​

Why this pokemon:​

The star of the team and late game sweeper. Lucario is often the last pokemon that my opponent sees before it’s game over. All the other pokemon in this team makes sure that Lucario has been given the best possible situation to set up an SD and sweep. With two powerhouses on the physical side of the attack spectrum (Tyranitar and Gyarados), bulky physical walls will be weakened enough to be knocked flat by Lucario.

I switch Lucario in when he has a chance to pull an SD off. Even if the opponent decides to attack Lucario can take at least one non super effective hit and still get an SD off. Sword Dance boosts his already high attack so it can whipe the floor with the remainders of the enemy team. Close Combat get's STAB and after an SD or 2 it almost a OHKO on everything that's not immune. With Extreme Speed and Bullet Punch (also STAB'ed) I get priority so I will not get a suprise knock out by anything faster. Bullet Punch is used over Crunch so that I will not get outspeed and KO'ed by the likes of Focus Blast Gengar. I do not always get an SD of so Life Orb can give me that extra boost to still get the KO. Inner Focus is used over Stead Fast because it's better not to flinch then to benefit from it.

With his counters lured out, Lucario still has problems with bulky physical walls like Suicune and Swampert. Thats were Toxic Spikes comes in handy. This will slowly wear them them down. Leaving them at low health for Lucario to finish them off. Weather support also comes in handy here as it neglect the Leftovers recovery.

Synergy:​

: Gliscor, Rotom-c​

: Suicune, Tyranitar​

: Gliscor, Rotom-c​

Changes:​

With the addition of CB Scizor Bullet Punch is no longer needed to counter things like DD-tar. So it has been replaced with Crunch. This was a suggestion posted by mulitple people.

Conclussion:

Well this was the team. As you have read like a thousand times, this team is designed to get Lucario sweeping. This is done by luring out Lucario's most common counters, weather support (Sandstorm) and entry hazzard support. The lack of a dragon type pokemon has not been unbeneficial. While making this team I took the greatest current threats in OU and made sure I had a decent counter against them. Of course Stall is a big threat as well but with moves as Taunt and my own 2 set up sweepers (one physical and one special) will give that a hard time too.

Rates are always welcome!

~ Delko

 

[Delko]

Threatlist!​

Black is no problem
Orange is a minor problem
Red is a big problem​

Defensive Threats:​

Blissey - My team is full over powerfull physical attackers. She can't do nothing but status me.​

Bronzong - Do they still exist? Gliscor can Taunt it before it does anything gay and Tyranitar can deal a sh*tload of damage to it.​

Celebi - Tyranitar can Pursuit it or Suicune set up on the ones without Leech Seed​

Cresselia - Tyranitar owns it.​

Donphan - Although it's quite bulky Suicune can still set up on it.​

Dusknoir - Again Tyranitar comes in handy.​

Forretress - Flamethrower cooks it. Or Suicune has set-up bait.​

Gliscor - Leads are outsped and Taunted. Anoying Sword Dancers can be a slight problem if they can get an easy set up.​

Gyarados - Rotom is designed to switch into it and burn it or KO with Thunderbolt.​

Hippowdon - If get's Taunted by Gliscor and burned by Rotom-a.

Rotom-A - Tyranitar bait.​

Skarmory - I set up with Forretress first. Rotom can T-bolt it or Tyranitar can fire a Flamethrower in it's face.​

Snorlax - Tyranitar whipes this fatso with Super Power.​

Suicune - Rotom is my best option. My own Suicune can try and stall the ones with HP Electric.​

Swampert - Rotom burns it or if for some reason they don't carry Roar, it's an easy set up for Suicune.​

Tentacruel - Rotom can trow T-bolts at it and when low on health Gliscor will finish it of with Earthquake.​

Tyranitar - Super Power from my own Ttar, Earthquake from Gliscor or a Suicune.

Vaporeon - Same as Suicune but slightly easier due to the fact that as good as none carry Rest.​

Zapdos - Rotom can burn and stall it. Otherwise I have to scare it away with Tyranitar while it looses 25% every time it switches in due to Stealth Rock.​

Offensive Threats:​

Azelf - Tyranitar takes care of it.​

Breloom - Tyranitar outspeeds Adamant Breloom and Flamethrower is a OHKO. It also dislikes Intimidate.​

Dragonite - Suicune has Ice Beam and Scizor can Bullet Punch for the revenge.​

Dugtrio - If he traps Tyranitar or Forretress they will die most of the time, Suicune can set up. They aren't as common lately.​

Electivire - Gliscor is my main counter.​

Gengar - Tyranitar can beat all but the Life Orb ones with Focus Blast, same goes for Scizor and HP fire.​

Gyarados - Rotom-w will scare it away, cripple it with Will-o-wisp or kill it with Thunderbolt.​

Heatran - Suicune.​

Heracross - Rotom-w can Will-o-wisp Gutless ones. After Atk drop it's not so scary anymore. Otherwise Gliscor can scare it away letting them believe I have Aerial Ace. Tyranitar can Flamethower. The Scarfers need prediction though.​

Infernape - Suicune can Surf or Gliscor can take on those without HP ice. ​

Jolteon - Gliscor can do well.​

Latias - Bait for Bait Tar.​

Kingdra - Suicune is my main counter. If it's physical Rotom.

Lucario - Gliscor of course.​

Machamp - Rotom goes for the burn and keep T-bolting it, Rest-talk versions are quite difficult. Gliscor can also do well if not for confusion hax.

Magnezone - Tyranitar does well with Super Power. Gliscor fair reasonable as well.​

Mamoswine - Suicune is my first choice. Otherwise Rotom burns it first.​

Metagross - Gliscor Earthquakes it.​

Salamence - Suicune with Ice Beam can take on a +1 Salamence.

Scizor - Bait Tar is designed for this one. Gyarados is number one switch-in.​

Starmie - Scizor can U-turn against it. Suicune also does well.​

Togekiss - Scizor can use powerfull Bullet Punches.​

Tyranitar - My own Tyranitar does well, Rotom can burn it and Lucario buttrapes it.​

Weavile - Choiced version I try to burn. Suicune can switchin relatively easy.​

Yanmega - Stealth Rock rapes it. Rotom resists all of it's attacks and can T-bolt it.​

Zapdos - Rotom can burn and stall it. Otherwise I have to scare it away with Tyranitar while it looses 25% every time it switches in due to Stealth Rock.​

 

[jc104]

Who, apart from Gengar and Scarf Tyranitar, does bullet punch take out that Espeed couldn't? Surely Mach Punch would have more merit? I would recommend Crunch anyway.

Good luck

 

[SlottedPig]

Minor Nitpick:

Considering Will-O-Wisp is the move you'll use most often with Rotom, I recommend switching to Rotom-W. This disheartens Heatran from switching in, fearing a Hydro Pump.

Thunderbolt should be used over Discharge because it's essentially a status move if you're using it over T-Bolt. And you've already got Will-O-Wisp. Not even special attackers like Latias can be "safe" from the burn (unless of course said Latias has Refresh, but why would she switch in?), as Burn + Sandstorm means she's taking a whopping 12% damage from the switch-in - that's if she has Leftovers and Stealth Rock isn't up! So you're potentially dealing 30%, almost 1/3rd of her entire lifespan, in a single move. The extra damage might not seem as good as the potential paralyzation, especially when she can Recover, but bear in mind that other special attackers may not (Rotom) or are simply weaker to Stealth Rock.

 

[SandslashPWNS]

You have a pretty solid team here, and presentation is excellent. The only thing I see is that you have a Mence weakness. He has the potential to sweep your entire team if he's a Dragon Dancer, and if he's a Wall Breaker, he has potential to keep switching in and firing STAB boosted Draco Meteors at your entire team, as nothing you have can take a Draco Meteor+Fire Blast/Earthquake/Outrage combination. For this, I suggest a Scarf Latias, as it checks Infernape, Salamence, Rotom-A (to an extent), Hippowdon, Gyarados, Flygon, and Heatran. That part is easy, but what to replace is difficult. I don't really like Forretress on this Offensive Team too much, although the Toxic support is always a plus. I would replace him with a Scarf Latias.

 

[Tenzuku]

Hmm...

What I think you should do first is change Rotoms Discharge into Thunderbolt since you already have a status which is burn on Will O Wisp.

For Gliscor you might want to change to speed EVS into 216 to 220 to outspeed regular Gliscor leads so just take those 4 EVS from Defense and put it in speed.

For Lucario I think you should be changing it into Crunch rather then Bullet punch since you'll get hurt really bad from Rotom, since you have nothing to throw against it.

For Tyranitar you might want to change Flamethrower into Fire Blast to do more damage to things that are weak to Fire types and definitly go for the OHKO.

That's pretty much it, Good day.

 

[MetaNite]

Hey there!

I see you've got a fairly big weakness to Dragon Dance Tyranitar as well as MixMence (one Lucario counter you have not addressed). To help remedy this, although not really a perfect counter to Tyranitar, Suicune would serve you much better than Gyarados I feel. (Between Gliscor and Suicune you will have Tyranitar beat for sure).

Suicune @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold / EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
~ Calm Mind / Surf / Ice Beam / Rest

Suicune also lures in Rotom-A and Latias pretty well, and can weaken them or even defeat them with Surf or Ice Beam (especially if they try to Trick you). After a single Calm Mind, you can hit Rotom-A hard with Surf and hopefully 2HKO Latias with Ice Beam. Suicune has a lot more staying power than Gyarados and is not weak to Stealth Rock, which means it serves a bit better as an Infernape counter (albeit Close Combat hurts a lot more). Suicune also acts a Salamence check, surviving a +1 Outrage, as well as a Draco Meteor, and OHKOing most likely with Ice Beam.

Something else for you to chew on is a Forretress lead. Replace Pain Split (not very reliable) with Stealth Rock and make it your lead. You can then replace Stealth Rock on Gliscor with Toxic, U-turn, or even Ice Fang if you truly fear Salamence. I suggest Toxic however, as it wears down incoming Gyarados and Suicune, both of which may stop a Lucario sweep. You may also want to give Tyranitar Ice Beam if you want to lure and kill Gliscor, who is Lucario's best counter probably. I'm not sure which move to use it over however. If you don't find you are using Superpower much, than that, or if you aren't Pursuiting very often then replace that.

I also suggest moving Rotom-C's SpD EVs into Defense, as a Life Orb Gyarados can actually OHKO you with Waterfall after a Dragon Dance, doing 80% absolute minimum. Once Rotom-C is gone you are in big trouble. I really would not take that risk.

Good luck!

 

[Delko]

Who, apart from Gengar and Scarf Tyranitar, does bullet punch take out that Espeed couldn't? Surely Mach Punch would have more merit? I would recommend Crunch anyway.
Good luck

If I was to use Mach Punch, ghost types can switch in with ease. Bullet Punch (also STAB'ed btw) does a fair amount of damage after an SD. I tried Crunch but things I used it against always outsped me and KO'ed before I could attack (Focus Blast Gengar, ...). Bullet Punch even KO's Rotom-a if he has taken prior damage.

Minor Nitpick:

Considering Will-O-Wisp is the move you'll use most often with Rotom, I recommend switching to Rotom-W. This disheartens Heatran from switching in, fearing a Hydro Pump.

This is not a bad suggestion, okay I'll chance. Thanks ^^

Thunderbolt should be used over Discharge because it's essentially a status move if you're using it over T-Bolt. And you've already got Will-O-Wisp. Not even special attackers like Latias can be "safe" from the burn (unless of course said Latias has Refresh, but why would she switch in?), as Burn + Sandstorm means she's taking a whopping 12% damage from the switch-in - that's if she has Leftovers and Stealth Rock isn't up! So you're potentially dealing 30%, almost 1/3rd of her entire lifespan, in a single move. The extra damage might not seem as good as the potential paralyzation, especially when she can Recover, but bear in mind that other special attackers may not (Rotom) or are simply weaker to Stealth Rock.

Since with the washer form lures out less Heatran, Thunderbolt might be the better option here so I'll go with that.

You have a pretty solid team here, and presentation is excellent. The only thing I see is that you have a Mence weakness. He has the potential to sweep your entire team if he's a Dragon Dancer, and if he's a Wall Breaker, he has potential to keep switching in and firing STAB boosted Draco Meteors at your entire team, as nothing you have can take a Draco Meteor+Fire Blast/Earthquake/Outrage combination. For this, I suggest a Scarf Latias, as it checks Infernape, Salamence, Rotom-A (to an extent), Hippowdon, Gyarados, Flygon, and Heatran. That part is easy, but what to replace is difficult. I don't really like Forretress on this Offensive Team too much, although the Toxic support is always a plus. I would replace him with a Scarf Latias.

Okay, Ill test Latias. Standard set I suppose?

Hmm...
For Gliscor you might want to change to speed EVS into 216 to 220 to outspeed regular Gliscor leads so just take those 4 EVS from Defense and put it in speed.

For Tyranitar you might want to change Flamethrower into Fire Blast to do more damage to things that are weak to Fire types and definitly go for the OHKO.

I like that suggestion for Gliscor, so that is something I will most certainly do. Thanks

About Fire Blast, Tyranitar must hit Scizor for OHKO, if I miss Scizor will do severe damage with Super Power or U-turn (most will not use Bullet Punch since they expect me to switch out) especially with a -Def nature, so I can affort to miss. ^^'

Hey there!

I see you've got a fairly big weakness to Dragon Dance Tyranitar as well as MixMence (one Lucario counter you have not addressed). To help remedy this, although not really a perfect counter to Tyranitar, Suicune would serve you much better than Gyarados I feel. (Between Gliscor and Suicune you will have Tyranitar beat for sure).

Suicune also lures in Rotom-A and Latias pretty well, and can weaken them or even defeat them with Surf or Ice Beam (especially if they try to Trick you). After a single Calm Mind, you can hit Rotom-A hard with Surf and hopefully 2HKO Latias with Ice Beam. Suicune has a lot more staying power than Gyarados and is not weak to Stealth Rock, which means it serves a bit better as an Infernape counter (albeit Close Combat hurts a lot more). Suicune also acts a Salamence check, surviving a +1 Outrage, as well as a Draco Meteor, and OHKOing most likely with Ice Beam.

You may also want to give Tyranitar Ice Beam if you want to lure and kill Gliscor, who is Lucario's best counter probably. I'm not sure which move to use it over however. If you don't find you are using Superpower much, than that, or if you aren't Pursuiting very often then replace that.

I also suggest moving Rotom-C's SpD EVs into Defense, as a Life Orb Gyarados can actually OHKO you with Waterfall after a Dragon Dance, doing 80% absolute minimum. Once Rotom-C is gone you are in big trouble. I really would not take that risk.

Good luck!

DD-tar can only set up on Forretress or Gyarados stuck on Payback. That's where Bullet Punch on Lucario comes in handy. But I will definitly try Suicune. I'll even test it over Forretress (my team weakest link) to see what is does.

If Scizor switches intin Tyranitar he will most likely use Earthquake so I can go to Gyarados with relative ease, so Ice Beam is not really needed.

You've made a good point with Rotom's EV's. I'll switch that.

Thanks for your suggestions!

 

[BLAAK.]

Hi.
Since you have no decent revenge killer, maybe Explosion could be used on Forretress, over Pain Split.
Since MetaNite said you have a weakness to DD-tar, maybe Earthquake can be used over Payback on Forretress as well.
Maybe Substitute could replace Crunch on Tyranitar.
Scizor is OHKO'ed by Flamethrower but so are you by Bullet Punch.

 

[jc104]

I apologise for the brevity of my first post. I also wrote a rate and lost it, so this will be more brief than planned as well.
Regarding the choice of final move for Lucario, here is a list of pokemon whom you might use your final move against. The moves are shown in order of preference, with those you would never use omitted. Percentages/KOs in brackets are with a boost. Do with it what you wish:
EDIT: Sorry. You definitely want CRUNCH anyway. I just asssumed that it would learn it, and it certainly would seem appropriate if it did. Here is the edited list.
Gengar: Bullet Punch (OHKO with SR or Sandstorm), Crunch
Tyranitar (scarf): Bullet Punch
Rotom: Crunch (OHKO on defensive), Bullet punch (20-23% for defensive, about 35% for scarf)
Jirachi: Crunch (extremely limited use - only if it tries “subs for defence drops”)
Aerodactyl: Bullet punch (OHKO),
Celebi: Crunch
Dusknoir: Crunch, bullet punch (about 30% iirc)
Cresselia: Crunch.

I don't rate Ice Punch at all - everything you would use it on is faster and will OHKO.

I hope you understand, that against almost all of these threats, if you do not KO before they move, you die. I am still recommending Crunch by the way. IMO Crunch>Bullet punch.

This team is generally solid, but it has a few weaknesses. The most obvious of these is to Salamence. Dragon dance salamence is capable of OHKOing every member of your team bar Forretress with outrage after a DD. Forretress is 2HKOed, and does pathetic damage with payback. Lucario Espeed does under 50%. At the moment I assume you are relying on residual damage. Scarf latias would sort of solve this problem, as would putting more defence and gyro ball on Forretress. Mixmence is equally devastating. He is, pretty much, guaranteed a KO every time he switches in, provided he uses Draco Meteor. There are no good counters to this unfortunately, and Latias would make this problem worse.

If Gliscor falls or is weakened to below 50%, you could be swept by DDtar. It OHKOs every member of your team, will likely survive an unboosted bullet punch from Lucario, particularly with Babiri Berry. Scarf Latias makes this problem worse as well, although trick could end a sweep. Scarf Gengar with hp ice (or icy wind) can revenge kill both of these, but is frail, and is pursuit-bait.

Suicune as suggested above would act as a partial solution to most of these problems, but comes at a cost of entry hazards and rapid spin if used over Forretress, and is unable to counter multiple threats at once, due to lack of reliable recovery. As he suggested, you probably ought to use him over Gyarados.

Good luck again with the team.

 

[Aquamentus]

Lucario doesn't learn Mach Punch, just Bullet Punch.

...Yeah, I don't know why either. It's the same way with Machamp, Hariyama, and Toxicroak.

 

[Delko]

Hi.
Since you have no decent revenge killer, maybe Explosion could be used on Forretress, over Pain Split.
Since MetaNite said you have a weakness to DD-tar, maybe Earthquake can be used over Payback on Forretress as well.
Maybe Substitute could replace Crunch on Tyranitar.
Scizor is OHKO'ed by Flamethrower but so are you by Bullet Punch.

Hmmm, Earthquake over Payback on Forretress is an idea. Especially with my relative big DD-tar weakness. I'll do that thanks ^^

I hope you understand, that against almost all of these threats, if you do not KO before they move, you die. Being able to do no damage to Gengar is really not much different from how the current set performs against scarf Heatran and Magnezone. I am still recommending Crunch by the way. IMO Crunch>Mach Punch>Bullet punch.

This team is generally solid, but it has a few weaknesses. The most obvious of these is to Salamence. Dragon dance salamence is capable of OHKOing every member of your team bar Forretress with outrage after a DD. Forretress is 2HKOed, and does pathetic damage with payback. Lucario Espeed does under 50%. At the moment I assume you are relying on residual damage. Scarf latias would sort of solve this problem, as would putting more defence and gyro ball on Forretress. Mixmence is equally devastating. He is, pretty much, guaranteed a KO every time he switches in, provided he uses Draco Meteor. There are no good counters to this unfortunately, and Latias would make this problem worse.

If Gliscor falls or is weakened to below 50%, you could be swept by DDtar. It OHKOs every member of your team, will likely survive an unboosted bullet punch from Lucario, particularly with Babiri Berry. Scarf Latias makes this problem worse as well, although trick could end a sweep. Scarf Gengar with hp ice (or icy wind) can revenge kill both of these, but is frail, and is pursuit-bait. Mach punch would be a 100% reliable way to kill it.

Suicune as suggested above would act as a partial solution to most of these problems, but comes at a cost of entry hazards and rapid spin if used over Forretress, and is unable to counter multiple threats at once, due to lack of reliable recovery. As he suggested, you probably ought to use him over Gyarados.
Good luck again with the team.

Aquamentus is right that Lucario doesn't learn Mach Punch (unfortunately). I'm considering to put Crunch back on Lucario.

I have now traded Payback to Earthquake on Forretress. That way DD-tar will be less threatening. It can only set up on Gyarados stuck in Payback (which is a rare sight to be honest) so I'm not that afraid of Tyranitar. Salamence, however, is mentioned a couple of times to be threat to this team. My main plan to stop it though is to Intimidate it enough so that Rotom could take a hit and burn him. Of course the casualties will be numerous, but it's not an unavoidable menace.

I am currently testing Suicune over Gyarados. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[mite b cool]

Alright well as I see it Lucario dosent really need Bullet Punch over Crunch, its only useful for hitting Gengar. Generally you want crunch to hit Rotom with becasue you cant switch anything in to Rotom at all, Luke, Tar and Gyara get burned, and your rotom cant touch it in return. Your best bet is probably to taunt it with Gliscor then pursuit it with Tar, which is probably what you are doing. i think maybe Scarf Tyranitar could help you: it pursuits Gengar who get cocky and try to stay in with focus blast, also pursuits latias and rotom etc which somewhat aids a lucario sweep. You have already a few counters to Scizor so scarfing Tar wouldnt be such a bad idea, Rotom and Gyara stop him cold, and Gliscor to a lesser extent.

I think Suicune could help over Gyara, like you ust mentioned. It can set up on Swampert etc and dosent mind toxic spikes

 

[Delko]

Alright well as I see it Lucario dosent really need Bullet Punch over Crunch, its only useful for hitting Gengar. Generally you want crunch to hit Rotom with becasue you cant switch anything in to Rotom at all, Luke, Tar and Gyara get burned, and your rotom cant touch it in return. Your best bet is probably to taunt it with Gliscor then pursuit it with Tar, which is probably what you are doing. i think maybe Scarf Tyranitar could help you: it pursuits Gengar who get cocky and try to stay in with focus blast, also pursuits latias and rotom etc which somewhat aids a lucario sweep. You have already a few counters to Scizor so scarfing Tar wouldnt be such a bad idea, Rotom and Gyara stop him cold, and Gliscor to a lesser extent.

I think Suicune could help over Gyara, like you ust mentioned. It can set up on Swampert etc and dosent mind toxic spikes

Okay, I'm testing this Suicune over Gyarados:

Suicune @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold / EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
~ Calm Mind / Surf / Ice Beam / Rest

I recently noticed that Toxic Spikes worked against me when I'm able to Will-o-wisp threats like Tyranitar. So does anyone has a suggestion to trade places with Forretress?

 

[george182]

With rotom, you don't need gyrados, just ev's rotom to outspeed lucario. Then swap gyrados with a scarf latias, with 40 ev's in HP, latias is garunteed to take a sword dance lucario's extreame speed and if its a jolly lucario it doesn't stand a chance. Latias is also pursuit bait, and lucario 4 times resists pursuit, :) free set up :)

Next I suggest spikes on forretress, you have very few stallers and you can force loads of switches racking up spikes damage. But the main reason is for Lucario, as with spikes and stealth rock he can OHKO forretress, hippowdon, suicune which he cudnt do before, tyraniar may not be able to lure and take these pokes out. Spikes also take tole on u-turning scizor, and can get him bellow 40% and into extreame speed range. Toxic spikes are also fairly useless in OU, on average 5/6 pokes are imune to toxic spikes on a person's team. Take your own team for example, only tyranitar is affected by toxic spikes, and he won't mind them too much as he likes to switch. While spikes affect 3 of your pokes and on average teams have 2 levitators/flyers, so 4/6 pokes are affected by spikes. Toxic spikes are also remevoed by poisen types, like roserade, tentacrueel, toxciroak, venusaur, nidoking etc.

Thus on an offensive team, Spikes > toxic spikes. Toxic spikes are only needed if you have a blissey weakness, and are sweeping with empoleon, or you have a swampert weakness and are sweeping with Jirachi, or if you have a stall team, using pokes like torment tran and blissey. You have none of them and spikes can be very benificial.

 

[Delko]

With rotom, you don't need gyrados, just ev's rotom to outspeed lucario. Then swap gyrados with a scarf latias, with 40 ev's in HP, latias is garunteed to take a sword dance lucario's extreame speed and if its a jolly lucario it doesn't stand a chance. Latias is also pursuit bait, and lucario 4 times resists pursuit, :) free set up :)

Next I suggest spikes on forretress, you have very few stallers and you can force loads of switches racking up spikes damage. But the main reason is for Lucario, as with spikes and stealth rock he can OHKO forretress, hippowdon, suicune which he cudnt do before, tyraniar may not be able to lure and take these pokes out. Spikes also take tole on u-turning scizor, and can get him bellow 40% and into extreame speed range. Toxic spikes are also fairly useless in OU, on average 5/6 pokes are imune to toxic spikes on a person's team. Take your own team for example, only tyranitar is affected by toxic spikes, and he won't mind them too much as he likes to switch. While spikes affect 3 of your pokes and on average teams have 2 levitators/flyers, so 4/6 pokes are affected by spikes. Toxic spikes are also remevoed by poisen types, like roserade, tentacrueel, toxciroak, venusaur, nidoking etc.

Thus on an offensive team, Spikes > toxic spikes. Toxic spikes are only needed if you have a blissey weakness, and are sweeping with empoleon, or you have a swampert weakness and are sweeping with Jirachi, or if you have a stall team, using pokes like torment tran and blissey. You have none of them and spikes can be very benificial.

I gave Rotom max HP and Defense so that he takes about 40% from a +1 LO Gyarados' Waterfall. Besides Gliscor is one of the best Lucario counters there is. In fact that's the reason I have him on my team instead of frailer, defensive weaker leads.

I am testing Suicune over Gyarados right now. Gyarados lures out Rotom-a and Latias so I can go for a quick KO with Payback (on the switch). But Suicune can set up relatively easy on both Rotom- and Latias.

Another thing I am testing is Scizor over Forretress. This will lower my stall capabilities (which apparently you liked ^^) a little. But if I am to replace Gyarados I loose my biggest counter to Salamence and Tyranitar (not really a counter, but Intimidate really helps). Gyarados was also the main reason I had a spinner on the team so I don't really have need for Forretress any more. CB Scizor or SD Scizor is the question. I'm testing both and both have their positive and negative sides, so I'm still debating there.

Comments?

 

[Delko]

Update​

Gyarados has been replaced by Suicune. After some suggestions I realised that Suicune is more beneficial to my team.​

Forretress has been replaced by Scizor. Although not a direct suggestion, I realised that Forretress was holding my team back. I also needed another CB user since Gyarados was taken out. Scizor also has amazing synergy with Lucario as their countered are almost identical.​

 

[DarkCyberElf]

The mention of "no revenge killer" brought to mind something that would help Lucario to no end. A Scarf Tyranitar might suffice over your current one, but you would certainly lose the surprise factor. Dark Pulse can be used over Crunch on your current Tyranitar on the note that Will-O-Wisp from Rotom formes don't completely cripple you the rest of the game aside from Flamethrower. Dark Pulse does more damage to Swampert, Salamence, Gliscor, and many other... switch-ins, as well as the extra speed and Hasty nature you run providing a neutrality and Dark Pulse's flinch rate might come in handy. Dark Pulse also suggests to your opponent you are Specs, so Blissey assumes it can come in and say "hi". To its dismay, it gets SuperPowered in its bitch ass, never to wall or threaten status again.

Scizor's set, in response to your inability to properly check Latias due to Tyranitar's lack of bulk, should be more specially bulky. A spread of 52 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe / 200 SpD retains your power (Adamant nature remains), while making sure Latias' LO Draco Meteor only averages around 45%, while you Pursuit its ass with half your health still intact. The speed drop may prove to be not to your liking, but the bulk is quite useful. If you want, you can say "what the hell" and go even bulkier, use a Careful nature, the whole sch-bang (whatever the fuck that is).


Well, that's enough from me, since I can't imagine changing too much without going over the line and making your reject the suggestion.

 

[Lord Blood]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Heracross rarely, if ever, carries Swarm. Guts is, almost, always the better option due to being able to switch into Wil-O-Wisp, Toxic, Thunder Wave (to an extent, better with Choice Band) and Spore/Sleep Powder (only if you have Sleep Talk.)

You might want to consider updating your threat list since you have Suicune over Gyarados.

 

[Delko]

The mention of "no revenge killer" brought to mind something that would help Lucario to no end. A Scarf Tyranitar might suffice over your current one, but you would certainly lose the surprise factor. Dark Pulse can be used over Crunch on your current Tyranitar on the note that Will-O-Wisp from Rotom formes don't completely cripple you the rest of the game aside from Flamethrower. Dark Pulse does more damage to Swampert, Salamence, Gliscor, and many other... switch-ins, as well as the extra speed and Hasty nature you run providing a neutrality and Dark Pulse's flinch rate might come in handy. Dark Pulse also suggests to your opponent you are Specs, so Blissey assumes it can come in and say "hi". To its dismay, it gets SuperPowered in its bitch ass, never to wall or threaten status again.

Scizor's set, in response to your inability to properly check Latias due to Tyranitar's lack of bulk, should be more specially bulky. A spread of 52 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe / 200 SpD retains your power (Adamant nature remains), while making sure Latias' LO Draco Meteor only averages around 45%, while you Pursuit its ass with half your health still intact. The speed drop may prove to be not to your liking, but the bulk is quite useful. If you want, you can say "what the hell" and go even bulkier, use a Careful nature, the whole sch-bang (whatever the fuck that is).

I'll change Crunch to Dark Pulse. EV's can stay the same I suppose?
I'm currently testing the EV's spread for Scizor. Thank you ^^

You might want to consider updating your threat list since you have Suicune over Gyarados.

Done!