Hehe nice... The more the merrier dude. (Nice summary)
Yeah Raichu's decent I'm not going to argue that he's super viable. But if you want something new, give Raichu a spin.
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np: UU - Can't Touch This
- Thread starter reachzero
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Hehe nice... The more the merrier dude. (Nice summary)
Yeah Raichu's decent I'm not going to argue that he's super viable. But if you want something new, give Raichu a spin.
I've had much more success with CB Torterra than CB Rhyperior. Unlike Rock, Grass scores SE on a lot of the popular physical walls in UU, like Donphan, Claydol, Slowbro, Milotic, etc. etc. It's also faster than Rhyperior, meaning you don't have to invest in as much speed to outrun 0 speed base 70s (even being able to outrun up to 0 speed base 85s if you max speed), it has better overall bulk, and arguably better typing as well. The attack difference isn't too noticeable, as CB Wood Hammer from Torterra is actually stronger than CB Stone Edge from Rhyperior, while anything that you would use CB Earthquake on is gonna die anyway.
Not true. If you use nullflux's bulk and strength thing found on a thread somewhere in the 1st page of Stark, you'll see that CB Torterra's Wood Hammer is in fact stronger than Rhyperior's CB Stone Edge by about 0.4%.
Just as a proof:
CB Torterra: 0.00744 x 348 x 120 x 1.5 (STAB) x 1.5 (CB) = 699.0624
CB Rhyperior: 0.00744 x 416 x 100 x 1.5 (STAB) x 1.5 (CB) = 696.384
Divide Torterra's value by Rhyperior's value, multiply by 100, and you get about 100.38%, meaning that CB Torterra's Wood Hammer hits 0.38% harder; it's not a very big difference, but it's stronger nonetheless.
The kicker though is that Torterra can be comfortably walled by several Pokemon. Rhyperior cannot: the right move will always strip off at least two-thirds of the opponent's health, so even faster Reflect + recovery doesn't work as a foolproof answer.
He did exceed my expectations (that he would completely suck), but as a sweeper he barely has more power than Raikou (after only one boost at least). After testing different sets, I actually found the Sub Punch set to be far and away the best of the ones I tried. It has a number of advantages over other Raichu sets, as well as some unique perks:
Protection from Substitute prevents you from dying, and Leftovers lets you use Encore a lot more often.
Volt Tackle hits just as hard as a Life Orb Thunderbolt does, and Focus punch hits way harder than Hidden Power, so this Raichu is at least causing as much damage as the NP set would in all of those matches where it wouldn't get to set up (which is a lot).
It can foil Dugtrio with Substitute and KO it with Focus Punch.
As opposed to many other Focus Punchers, it has the speed to follow up Focus Punch with a pretty powerful Volt Tackle.
Also, it doesn't get outclassed by Raikou. It faces stiff competition from Poliwrath, but I think it has enough to differentiate itself (Speed). Certainly up for discussion.
The set is this (It's a little different on the site):
Raichu @ Leftovers
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe, Jolly / Adamant
~ Substitute
~ Focus Punch
~ Volt Tackle
~ Encore
This is the set I would most recommend. Jolly over Adamant IMO because Speed helps it use Encore effectively, and Encore is the only reason this set works.
"The kicker though is that Torterra can be comfortably walled by several Pokemon. Rhyperior cannot: the right move will always strip off at least two-thirds of the opponent's health, so even faster Reflect + recovery doesn't work as a foolproof answer. " Like what? From what I can tell, Wood Hammer, Earthquake, and Stone Edge get better coverage than Rhyperior's Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Megahorn. I can't think of any walls I've missed. And the speed really is a big deal, since things like Quagsire, Gastrodon, and even Cresselia can actually recover stall you if you use Stone Edge.
In UU, Torterra is walled by Weezing, Leafeon, Tangrowth and Cresselia. Bug is a FAR better coverage type than Grass alongside QuakeEdge. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Stone Edge remark, but Cresselia can recover stall Torterra whether made to be faster or not, and whatever the move.
Ah, fair enough. You're right, I forgot about those. I was suggesting that Grass offered better coverage due to its ability to hit a lot of physical UU walls SE.
I'm definetely going to try this set. (I should recommend it to a friend of mine)
Thanks a lot for testing Raichu.
The only problem I have with that set is that with Substitute and Volt Tackle along with entry hazards you're going to be losing a lot of health, and Raichu gets forced out by a lot of things like Donphan and even Steelix won't take much from that Focus Punch without STAB. You can either use Thunderpunch, or you can make it mixed by using Thunderbolt and changing the nature to Hasty. Raichu's frail anyway so it isn't going to be taking many hits anyway.
I'm kind of skeptical about Raichu as opposed to using Pikachu with Light Ball. Does the extra ten base Speed and bulk really help Raichu do his job that much better? I can't imagine that Raichu is taking many hits in the first place. The only thing I would never do with Pikachu, but possibly with Raichu is Volt Tackle, since Pikachu may actually OHKO itself if something like Chansey switches in.
Pikachu still has 90 base Speed, and both of his attacking stats are much higher (0 Attack EV Pikachu has more Attack than 252 Attack EV Raichu with Jolly, and only needs 16 Special Attack EVs to match Raichu's max Special Attack).
So I'd like to know if Raichu's 10 extra base speed and more bulk is more important than Pikachu's much higher attacking stats.
@below poster: Yes it can, and I meant if Chansey switched in, since most Pikachu focus on Special Attack so it would come in to try and wall it.
Pikachu still has 90 base Speed, and both of his attacking stats are much higher (0 Attack EV Pikachu has more Attack than 252 Attack EV Raichu with Jolly, and only needs 16 Special Attack EVs to match Raichu's max Special Attack).
So I'd like to know if Raichu's 10 extra base speed and more bulk is more important than Pikachu's much higher attacking stats.
@below poster: Yes it can, and I meant if Chansey switched in, since most Pikachu focus on Special Attack so it would come in to try and wall it.
Why would you volt tackle Chansey when you can Focus Punch? And can Pikachu even learn Focus Punch before it evolves?
The discussion about CB Torterra vs CB Rhyperior seems very interesting...
With Torterra you hit alot of UU phyiscal walls for super effective with just wood hammer but also leaving yourself open for other pokes to set up...IE: Venasaur/moltres
With Rhyperior you hit alot of pokes hard with Stone Edge even resisted and once all the ground resisters are out of the way spam EQ...(same goes for Torterra though too, but rhyperior has a higher attack)
Its very hard to choose from the two...but Rhyperior just seems overall better with a much higher attack power and better neutral coverage with its STAB...Torterra is hanging on by Wood Hammer, better typing, and better speed..
With Torterra you hit alot of UU phyiscal walls for super effective with just wood hammer but also leaving yourself open for other pokes to set up...IE: Venasaur/moltres
With Rhyperior you hit alot of pokes hard with Stone Edge even resisted and once all the ground resisters are out of the way spam EQ...(same goes for Torterra though too, but rhyperior has a higher attack)
Its very hard to choose from the two...but Rhyperior just seems overall better with a much higher attack power and better neutral coverage with its STAB...Torterra is hanging on by Wood Hammer, better typing, and better speed..
The biggest differences are that Raichu can survive a special attack and that it has Leftovers. With Leftovers, it can come in a lot more, especially if you're keeping it out of harm's way. That means a lot more Encoring can go on. Also, Volt Tackle + Substitute isn't as bad as you'd think, since you're mostly using Volt Tackle to finish off weakened things, and you're getting Leftovers recovery still. 100 base speed has it's perks too, such as reliably killing Moltres and getting up a sub or Encore against Uxie (and not getting it broken by U-turn). In fact Subbing against Uxie helps Raichu be a real big help vs. Rain teams. Encore the setup, sub up, and kill / encore whatever sweeper comes in. Also Volt Tackle is going to do a lot to Porygon - z and Houndoom (I think it might kill doom with SR).
Those are Raichu's advantages at any rate... I'm sure Pikachu would work well, too. His focus would be more on getting a couple of Encores and trying to Punch stuff really hard, while Raichu is more likely to stick around and be a constant threat to enemy stat-uppers. Don't underestimate the difference that bad (as opposed to non-existent) defenses and leftovers make, though.
Raichu has the added advantage of surviving a STAB move (minus EQ) Pikachu will die from nearly ANYTHING, it's defenses are THAT weak.
The speed loss can be pretty annoying, as there are a couple prominent speed+ 90 users, pikachu can only be brought in with perfect prediction. And the final torn in his side is his reliance on Lightball. He literally has no other item to use.
The speed loss can be pretty annoying, as there are a couple prominent speed+ 90 users, pikachu can only be brought in with perfect prediction. And the final torn in his side is his reliance on Lightball. He literally has no other item to use.
Yeah, but if you don't use Encore, Surf, Grass Knot, or Nasty Plot, (or possibly Volt Tackle) don't even consider Raichu. Use Electabuzz, dangit!
A pointless statement though, as every Raichu carries at least one of those moves anyway.
I used a lead LO Ampharos before. Being able to survive Fake Out+Return with 30% chance of paralizing Ambipom on each attack is cool, and Focus Blast is overkill against Ambipom... or you can also use Discharge for another 30% chance of para.
Paralizing Froslass is priceless. And those water starters aren't going to stay in and probably are going to switch, giving you a free HP Grass against the obvious ground switch. You also outspeed Rhyperior and HP grass it to death. And you survive those powerful Moltres attacks and Discharge it to death...
Unlike Raikou, Ampharos has something against Umbreon as well, 2HKOing it with Focus Blast,
You haven't seen Ampharos because of Raikou(which is way faster and slighty bulkier), so you need to focus on what Ampharos has to offer that Raikou can't. That's probably why i used it on the lead spot.
Things that Ampharos has that Raikou doesn't are:
Focus Blast
Heal Bell
Counter
Punch attacks(Focus Punch...)
Static ability
Possibility of a + sp.atk nature(Raikou NEEDS to beTimid)
Yeah... that pretty much summarizes it. If you don't use one of those, you have a inferior Raikou(just like the Raichu X Electabuzz discussion).
That's not really an asset over Raikou, well it is in a way, but more attributable to Static than anything else. Agree with almost everything else though.
In addition, I would stay that Ampharos doesn't really have a positively defining niche in the metagame anymore. It isn't the re-introduction of Raikou so much that, since Honchkrow's departure, there aren't any dominant Flying types left that Ampharos can reasonably check. Utilizing Static to the full means being defensive, but as far as that is concerned, there is currently no niche to fill that Ampharos wouldn't be outclassed at, and I would say it doesn't have enough offensive capabilities over Raikou to make up for the obvious drawbacks. Ampharos was great back in the first 1-2 testing periods with Crobat and Staraptor, but these days I just can't see a useful and unique role for it on my teams.
If I remember correctly, you can't be paralyzed by Static after using Fake Out, just like Earthquake. Apparently it's not a contact move, even if the damage is physical.
Actually Fake Out makes contact with the opponent, so it will be affected by Static.
I would say that it's more about the speed: if Ampharos was fast, it would use a +spd nature just like Raikou. But Ampharos isn't the fastest thing, making speed almost useless on it. So why invest in speed? Just go with Modest!
And yes, what you say is right: there's no unique niche to Ampharos.
The best i could do is to turn Ampharos into the lead(Only spot that could make Ampharos better than Raikou because of Static mainly... and because it doesn't mind random Thunder Waves like Raikou if it leads), but there are better pokes out there for leads.
Speaking of niches: why Nintendo doesn't give Recover to Muk? It would probably be the one of the best users of it, not serving only as a special wall, but also a Curser without fear of Toxics and Trick...
Right now, that's the niche of MUk... even if i have to rely on Rest for that(whick takes out the Toxic immunity argument)
Oh yes, it makes a good lead too with immunity to Trick , Shadow Sneak ,Explosion and enough bulk to take those pesky Ambipoms out.
Ok, as monthly status have just came out and now that people had enough time to adapt to the new pokés, I'm curious to know what are the overall thoughts about PZ are (I do know that we've already gone through this, but it's been almost a month the duck duo has been introduced and Porygon's seen much less discussion than it's relative Cresselia; and added to that I believe more people are able to judge it by now).
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