Gengar (Gen 4, Sub + Pain Split)*

[Philip7086]

Hello again, C&C peeps. I've been abusing this Gengar for a while now, but it's time for me to stop being greedy w/ sets and share it with the community (expect to see more sets from me in the near future). Anyways, this is the best Gengar set in DPP IMO, but you can judge for yourself!

Status: Done and ready to upload. Thanks for the help everybody!

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gengar

[SET]
name: Substitute + Pain Split
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Pain Split
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With the release of HeartGold and SoulSilver came a new toy for Gengar to play with: Pain Split. By utilizing a combination of Substitute and Pain Split, Gengar becomes nearly impossible to wall, even by Blissey. Pain Split also allows Gengar to safely run Substitute and Life Orb at the same time, all the while taking damage from sandstorm and hail; in fact, taking so much residual damage only increases the amount of HP that Gengar sucks away from its opponents. Gengar is also notorious for its ability to sweep, with its massive Special Attack stat and 110 base Speed. Although this set loses some super effective coverage due to the lack of attacking moveslots, Gengar still maintains perfect neutral coverage with the unresisted Fighting- and Ghost-type combination. A combination of base 130 Special Attack and high-powered moves ensures this Gengar is still a terrifying sweeper.</p>

<p>The combination of Substitute and Pain Split allows Gengar to take out Pokemon it normally would not be able to, most notably Blissey. After Substitute and two Pain Splits (or one if sandstorm is in effect), Blissey’s health will low enough so that Focus Blast is a 2HKO. This means that Blissey will be forced to constantly heal herself or risk being KOed. Pain Split has 32 PP, while Wish and Softboiled have 16, meaning that Gengar can easily stall Blissey out. If Blissey does not use a healing move to conserve PP, then she is at huge risk of being 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Finally, most Blissey are unable to break Gengar's Substitutes, meaning it can usually come out of the duel unscathed.<p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>One of the biggest drawbacks to using any Gengar set is how fragile it is. Gengar is OHKOed by a Choice Band Bullet Punch from Scizor, and takes a huge hit from a Choice Scarf Tyranitar's Pursuit, making it very hard for Gengar to sweep for long. The use of Substitute effectively solves this problem, though, as Gengar can provide itself with a safety blanket to switch out of harm’s way without getting hit by Pursuit. Substitute also protects Gengar from nasty status effects, namely paralysis, which can immediately stop its sweep. Substitute also eases the prediction required for Gengar to effectively sweep, by allowing it to scout the opponent's switch-in and attack appropriately. The combination of Substitute and Life Orb is generally not recommended due to how quickly Gengar ends up killing itself, but is mitigated by Pain Split.</p>

<p>Since Gengar does such a great job of luring in and beating Blissey, it is recommended that this set be paired up with Pokemon who are normally walled by Blissey but do a fantastic job at sweeping otherwise. This includes Pokemon like offensive Suicune, Substitute + Agility Empoleon, offensive Starmie, and Heatran, among many others. Although this set can sweep on its own, the fact that it can also clear the way for other sweepers like this should be exploited to its fullest.</p>

<p>Due to Gengar's paper-thin defenses, it is usually very risky to switch it in on an attack; even though it packs impressive immunities, a misprediction can be enough to end Gengar's sweep before it begins. However, there are ways to “guarantee” a safe switch in for Gengar by using Pokemon such as Heatran with Substitute. Gengar can come in safely on the Fighting- and Ground-type attacks Heatran lures; people generally do not try to predict switch-ins against Pokemon who have a Substitute up. As a bonus, Gengar does not have to worry about switching in on something like a Thunder Wave from Blissey when using this strategy, which is one of the biggest concerns when contemplating whether or not to switch Gengar in. This strategy can be used with other Pokemon who have similar weaknesses, like Tyranitar or Empoleon. Tyranitar in particular is recommended, as the sandstorm that it provides makes it significantly easier for Gengar to beat Blissey. For extra insurance against Blissey in worst-case scenarios, Toxic Spikes should be considered. As with any set utilizing Substitute, Toxic Spikes can prove to be even more potent than usual, forcing Pokemon to usually take two turns of damage minimum should you choose to attack then switch out.</p>

<p>Gengar also makes a great partner for Swords Dance Lucario, as Gengar is almost guaranteed a free switch in against Gliscor, the premier Lucario counter. Gengar is immune to Ground-type attacks and Toxic, and boasts a 4x resistance to U-turn, meaning Gengar does not fear any of the common moves that Gliscor carries. Gengar can then start hitting hard every time someone relies on Gliscor to beat Lucario.</p>

<p>The ability to give all team archetypes trouble makes this one of the most useful Gengar sets. Offensive teams do not like facing fast and heavy hitters, and defensive teams do not like Pain Split, which keeps Gengar alive. Because of this, Substitute + Pain Split Gengar makes a great addition to any team.</p>

 

[Fuzznip]

[SET]
name: Sub + Pain Split
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Focus Blast
move 4: Pain Split
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With the release of Heart Gold and Soul Silver came a new toy for Gengar to play with: Pain Split. By utilizing a combination of Substitute and Pain Split, Gengar becomes nearly impossible to wall, even with Blissey. Pain Split also allows Gengar to safely run Substitute and Life Orb at the same time, all the while taking damage from sandstorm and hail, as he can easily just heal himself back to good health when he is low; in fact, taking so much residual damage only increases the amount of HP that Gengar sucks away from his opponents. Of course, Gengar is notorious for his ability to sweep, with his massive Special Attack stat and base Speed of 110. Although this set loses some super effective coverage due to the lack of attacking move slots, Gengar still maintains perfect neutral coverage with the unresisted Fighting- and Ghost-type combination. The fact that both Shadow Ball and Focus Blast have an effective Base Power of 120, thanks to STAB, coupled with Gengar’s base Special Attack stat of 130, makes Gengar just as effective of a special sweeper as ever, while maintaining more survivability and the ability to break walls better thanks to Pain Split.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>One of the biggest drawbacks to using any Gengar set is how fragile he is. Gengar is OHKOed by a Choice Band Bullet Punch from Scizor, and a Choice Scarf Pursuit from Tyranitar, making it very hard for Gengar to sweep for long. The use of Substitute effectively solves this problem, though, as Gengar can provide himself with a safety blanket and easily switch out of harm’s way without fearing Pursuit. Substitute also protects Gengar from nasty status effects, namely paralysis, which can immediately stop Gengar’s sweep. Substitute also eases the prediction required for Gengar to effectively sweep, by allowing him to scout which Pokemon his opponent switches in, before deciding what to attack it with. The combination of Substitute and Life Orb is generally not recommended, due to how fast you end up killing yourself, but with Pain Split, this becomes a nonissue.</p>

<p>The combination of Substitute and Pain Split allows Gengar to take out Pokemon he normally would not be able to, most notably Blissey. After Substitute and Pain Split, Blissey’s health will be diminished low enough to where Focus Blast is a 2HKO. This means that Blissey will constantly need to be healing herself after each Pain Split, or else risk being KOed. This is where Pain Split’s 32 PP comes into play: Blissey can only heal herself 16 times from Wish or Softboiled, meaning that you can easily stall those moves out. If Blissey does not use a healing move to conserve PP, then she is at huge risk of being 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Finally, most Blissey do not carry an attacking move that can break Gengar’s Substitute, meaning Gengar can usually come out of the duel unscathed.<p>

<p>Since Gengar does such a great job at luring and beating Blissey, it is recommended that this set be paired up with Pokemon who are normally walled by Blissey, but do a fantastic job at sweeping otherwise. These include Pokemon like offensive Suicune, Substitute + Agility Empoleon, offensive Starmie, and Heatran, among many others. Although this set can sweep on its own, the fact that it can also clear the way for other sweepers like this should be exploited to its fullest.</p>

<p>Due to how fragile Gengar is, it is usually very risky to switch him into an attack, as even though he packs impressive immunities, a wrong prediction can end Gengar’s life before he even sees any action. However, there are ways to “guarantee” a safe switch in for Gengar by using Pokemon such as Heatran with Substitute. Because Heatran draws in Fighting- and Ground-type attacks, Gengar can come in safely while Heatran switches out from behind a Substitute; people generally do not try to predict switch-ins against Pokemon who have a Substitute up, so it is very likely that they will use whatever is super effective against Heatran while he is behind a Substitute. This strategy can be used with other Pokemon who have similar weaknesses too, like Tyranitar or Empoleon. As a bonus, Gengar does not have to worry switching into something like a Thunder Wave from Blissey when using this strategy, which is one of the biggest concerns when contemplating whether or not to switch Gengar in.</p>

<p>Gengar also makes a great partner in crime with Swords Dance Lucario, as Gengar is almost guaranteed a free switch in against Gliscor, the premier Lucario counter. Gengar is immune to Ground-type attacks and Toxic, and boasts a 4x resistance to U-turn, meaning Gengar does not fear any of the common moves that Gliscor carries. Gengar can then start hitting hard every time someone relies on Gliscor to beat Lucario.</p>

<p>The ability to give all team archetypes trouble makes this one of the most useful Gengar sets. Offensive teams do not like facing fast and heavy hitters, and defensive teams do not like Pain Split which keeps Gengar alive. Because of this, Substitute + Pain Split Gengar makes a great addition to any team.</p>

Really cool set, Phil. Just a few things to keep in mind:

1. The proper order of EV spreads is as follows: HP / Atk / Def / SpA / SpD / Spe. Therefore, your 4 Defense EVs should be listed first.

2. Sandstorm and hail should not be capitalized, unless you are referring to the actual move, which you were not. Same goes for saying rain and sun, they are not capitalized unless you are referring to Rain Dance and Sunny Day, respectively.

3. Super effective shouldn't be capitalized.

4. Base Power should be capitalized.

5. Status effects, like paralysis and burn, are not capitalized.

6. Do not add an 's' when referring to multiples of a Pokemon. Just like if you were to say five sheep, you don't say five sheeps. Blissey > Blisseys.

7. The 't' in U-turn shouldn't be capitalized.

Great job!

 

[whistle]

even though Pokemon are people, don’t assume a gender—use “it” instead of “he”

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With the release of Heart Gold and Soul Silver came a new toy for Gengar to play with: Pain Split. By utilizing a combination of Substitute and Pain Split, Gengar becomes nearly impossible to wall, even with Blissey. Pain Split also allows Gengar to safely run Substitute and Life Orb at the same time, all the while taking damage from sandstorm and hail, as it can easily just heal itself back to high health when he is low; in fact, taking so much residual damage only increases the amount of HP that Gengar sucks away from its opponents. Of course, Gengar is notorious for its ability to sweep, with its massive Special Attack stat and base Speed of 110. Although this set loses some super effective coverage due to the lack of attacking move slots, Gengar still maintains perfect neutral coverage with the unresisted Fighting- and Ghost-type combination. The fact that both Shadow Ball and Focus Blast have an effective base power of 120, (thanks to STAB on Shadow Ball), coupled with Gengar’s base Special Attack stat of 130, makes Gengar just as effective of a special sweeper as ever, while maintaining more survivability and the ability to break walls better thanks to Pain Split.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>One of the biggest drawbacks to using any Gengar set is how fragile it is. Gengar is OHKOed by a Choice Band Bullet Punch from Scizor, and a Choice Scarf Pursuit from Tyranitar (CS Pursuit only does ~75%), making it very hard for Gengar to sweep for long. The use of Substitute effectively solves this problem, though, as Gengar can provide itself with a safety blanket to easily switch out of harm’s way without getting hit by Pursuit. Substitute also protects Gengar from nasty status effects, namely paralysis, which can immediately stop Gengar’s sweep. Substitute also eases the prediction required for Gengar to effectively sweep, by allowing it to scout which Pokemon the opponent switches in, before deciding what to attack it with. The combination of Substitute and Life Orb is generally not recommended, due to how fast Gengar ends up killing itself, but with Pain Split, this becomes a nonissue.</p>

<p>The combination of Substitute and Pain Split allows Gengar to take out Pokemon he normally would not be able to, most notably Blissey. After Substitute and Pain Split, Blissey’s health will be diminished low enough to where so that Focus Blast is a 2HKO. This means that Blissey will constantly need to be healing herself after each Pain Split, or else risk being KOed. This is where Pain Split’s 32PP comes into play: Blissey can only heal herself 16 times from Wish or Softboiled, meaning that you can easily stall those moves out. If Blissey does not use a healing move to conserve PP, then she is at huge risk of getting 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Finally, most Blisseys do not carry an attacking move that can break Gengar’s Substitute, meaning Gengar can usually come out of the duel unscathed.<p>

<p>Since Gengar does such a great job of luring and beating Blissey, it is recommended that this set be paired up with Pokemon who are normally walled by Blissey, but do a fantastic job at sweeping otherwise. These include Pokemon like offensive Suicune, Substitute + Agility Empoleon, offensive Starmie, Heatran, among many others. Although this set can sweep on its own, the fact that it can also clear the way for other sweepers like this should be exploited to its fullest.</p>

<p>Due to how fragile Gengar is, it is usually very risky to switch it into an attack,; as even though it packs impressive immunities, a wrong prediction can end Gengar’s life before it even sees any action. However, there are ways to “guarantee” a safe switch in for Gengar by using Pokemon such as Heatran with Substitute. Because Heatran draws in Fighting- and Ground-type attacks, Gengar can come in safely while Heatran switches out from behind a Substitute; people generally do not try to predict switch-ins against Pokemon who have a Substitute up, so it is very likely that they will use whatever is Super Effective against Heatran while he is behind a Substitute. This strategy can be used with other Pokemon who have similar weaknesses too, like Tyranitar or Empoleon. As a bonus, Gengar does not have to worry switching into something like a Thunder Wave (space) from Blissey when using this strategy, which is one of the biggest concerns when contemplating whether or not to switch Gengar in.</p>

<p>Gengar also makes a great partner in crime for Swords Dance Lucario, as Gengar is almost guaranteed a free switch in against Gliscor, the premier Lucario counter. Gengar is immune to Ground-type attacks and Toxic, and boasts a 4x resistance to U-turn, meaning Gengar does not fear any of the common moves that Gliscor carries. Gengar can then start hitting hard every time someone relies on Gliscor to beat Lucario.</p>

<p>The ability to give all team archetypes trouble makes this one of the most useful Gengar sets. Offensive teams do not like facing fast and heavy hitters, and defensive teams do not like Pain Split keeping Gengar alive. Because of this, Substitute + Pain Split Gengar makes a great addition to any team.</p>

 

[Philip7086]

Thanks Fuzznip and Whistle!

@Fuzznip: thanks for the little tip at the end of your post. I'll keep all those in mind from here on out.

@Whistle: I didn't take out the part about attacking Heatran with a super effective move, as that's the selling point of using Sub Heatran. Otherwise, people might try to predict a switch and not use a Ground or Fighting-type attack.

Edit: alright whistle, makes sense, lemme fix it.

Also edit: I never realized that I was using ttar on the same team as Gengar, making it easier for Gengar to Pain Split Bliss effectively. Added more detail about it in.

 

[whistle]

the reason I took it out was because you said "Heatran draws in Fighting- and Ground-type attacks" in the previous sentence then said that people don't usually predict against a substitute, so the part I cut out felt like a foregone conclusion.

 

[UncleSam]

I can't help but wonder if HP Fighting might be a decent slash-in on this Gengar set, as it is designed to stay in for a long time. I know it loses some KO's, but given Pain Split and Substitute it seems unlikely that opposing Pokemon will remain at full health for very long when facing it. It seems to me it deserves a mention in additional comments at least. Just a noob's opinion. Really cool new set overall, by the way.

 

[Fuzznip]

Hidden Power Fighting is a poor option on this set in my opinion.

If Gengar is no longer running Focus Blast, it will be harder for it to combat Blissey and Tyranitar, as well as other Pokemon like Scizor and Heatran. Gengar will miss out on dealing enough damage to Blissey to beat it, while Choice Scarf Tyranitar is capable of surviving a Life Orbed Hidden Power Fighting (just barely) and can destroy Gengar with Pursuit. Tyranitar that invest in HP, such as Choice Band Tyranitar, could survive Hidden Power Fighting with a bit more health left too. Blissey takes a measly 17.96% - 21.31% from HP Fighting, but 30.75% - 36.23% with Focus Blast which helps Gengar KO her. 0/0 Heatran takes 58.20% - 68.73% from a Life Orbed Hidden Power Fighting, whereas Focus Blast will OHKO (100.31% - 118.27%). Finally, Scizor takes 34.69% - 41.11% from HP Fighting, but is 2HKOed by Focus Blast (59.48% - 70.26%).

Also, the worst part about running Hidden Power Fighting is that you'll be sitting at 349 Speed instead of 350. You're now vulnerable to opposing Latias and Gengar that aren't running a -Speed Hidden Power.

 

[UncleSam]

Hidden Power Fighting is a poor option on this set in my opinion.

If Gengar is no longer running Focus Blast, it will be harder for it to combat Blissey and Tyranitar, as well as other Pokemon like Scizor and Heatran. Gengar will miss out on dealing enough damage to Blissey to beat it, while Choice Scarf Tyranitar is capable of surviving a Life Orbed Hidden Power Fighting (just barely) and can destroy Gengar with Pursuit. Tyranitar that invest in HP, such as Choice Band Tyranitar, could survive Hidden Power Fighting with a bit more health left too. Blissey takes a measly 17.96% - 21.31% from HP Fighting, but 30.75% - 36.23% with Focus Blast which helps Gengar KO her. 0/0 Heatran takes 58.20% - 68.73% from a Life Orbed Hidden Power Fighting, whereas Focus Blast will OHKO (100.31% - 118.27%). Finally, Scizor takes 34.69% - 41.11% from HP Fighting, but is 2HKOed by Focus Blast (59.48% - 70.26%).

Also, the worst part about running Hidden Power Fighting is that you'll be sitting at 349 Speed instead of 350. You're now vulnerable to opposing Latias and Gengar that aren't running a -Speed Hidden Power.

My point was that against something like Heatran, you would not need to OHKO because you would be doing damage apart from the fighting attack. However, I completely forgot about the speed drop, and you are absolutely right, Gengar cannot survive without every speed point available to him. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Zach]

well i'm pretty much sold on this set but would you mind providing some logs?

 

[franky]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/gengar[SET]
name: Sub + Pain Split
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Pain Split
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With the release of Heart Gold and Soul Silver came a new toy for Gengar to play with: Pain Split. By utilizing a combination of Substitute and Pain Split, Gengar becomes nearly impossible to wall, even with Blissey. Pain Split also allows Gengar to safely run Substitute and Life Orb at the same time, all the while taking damage from sandstorm or hail, as it can easily just heal itself back to high health; in fact, taking so much residual damage only increases the amount of HP that Gengar sucks away from its opponents. Of course, Gengar is notorious for its ability to sweep, with its massive Special Attack stat and base Speed of 110. Although this set loses some super effective coverage due to the lack of attacking move slots, Gengar still maintains perfect neutral coverage with the unresisted Fighting- and Ghost-type combination. The fact that both Shadow Ball and Focus Blast have solid Base Powers of 120 (thanks to STAB on Shadow Ball), coupled with Gengar’s base high Special Attack [cut out '130' for redundancy], makes Gengar just as effective of a special sweeper as ever, while maintaining more survivability and the ability to break walls with Pain Split.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>One of the biggest drawbacks to using any Gengar set is how fragile it is. Gengar is OHKOed by a Choice Band Bullet Punch from Scizor, and takes a huge hit from a Tyranitar's Choice Scarf Pursuit, making it very hard for Gengar to sweep for long. The use of Substitute effectively solves this problem, though, as Gengar can provide itself with a safety blanket to switch out of harm’s way without getting hit by Pursuit. Substitute also protects Gengar from paralysis [removed 'nasty status' since Gengar is only bothered by paralysis], which can immediately slow down [more appropriate] Gengar’s sweep. Substitute also eases the prediction required for Gengar to effectively sweep by allowing it to scout which Pokemon the opponent switches in before deciding what to attack it with. The combination of Substitute and Life Orb is generally not recommended due to how fast Gengar ends up killing itself, but with Pain Split, this becomes a nonissue.</p>

<p>The combination of Substitute and Pain Split allows Gengar to take out Pokemon he normally would not be able to, most notably Blissey. After Substitute and two Pain Splits (or one if sandstorm is in effect), Blissey’s health will low enough so that Focus Blast is a 2HKO. This means that Blissey will constantly need to be healing herself after each Pain Split, or else risk being KOed. This is where Pain Split’s 32 PP comes into play: Blissey can only heal herself 16 times from Wish or Softboiled, meaning that you can easily stall those moves out. If Blissey does not use a healing move to conserve PP, then she is at huge risk of being 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Finally, most Blissey do not carry an attacking move that can break Gengar’s Substitute, meaning Gengar can usually come out of the duel unscathed.<p>

<p>Since Gengar does such a great job of luring and beating Blissey, it is recommended that this set be paired up with Pokemon who are normally walled by Blissey, but do a fantastic job at sweeping otherwise. These include Pokemon like offensive Suicune, Substitute + Agility Empoleon, offensive Starmie, and Heatran, among many others. Although this set can sweep on its own, the fact that it can also clear the way for other sweepers like this should be exploited to its fullest.</p>

<p>Due to Gengar’s paper-thin defenses [more flow, I guess], it is usually very risky to switch it into an attack; even though it packs impressive immunities, a wrong prediction can end Gengar’s life before it sees any action. However, there are ways to “guarantee” a safe switch in for Gengar by using Pokemon such as Heatran with Substitute. Because Heatran draws in Fighting- and Ground-type attacks, Gengar can come in safely while Heatran switches out from behind a Substitute; people generally do not try to predict switch-ins against Pokemon who have a Substitute up. As a bonus, Gengar does not have to worry switching into something like a Thunder Wave from Blissey when using this strategy, which is one of the biggest concerns when contemplating whether or not to switch Gengar in. This strategy can be used with other Pokemon who have similar weaknesses, like Tyranitar or Empoleon. Tyranitar in particular is recommended, as the sandstorm that he provides makes it significantly easier for Gengar to beat Blissey.</p>

<p>Gengar also makes a great partner in crime for Swords Dance Lucario, as Gengar is almost guaranteed a free switch in against Gliscor, the premier Lucario counter. Gengar is immune to Ground-type attacks and Toxic, and boasts a 4x resistance to U-turn, meaning Gengar does not fear any of the common moves that Gliscor carries. Gengar can then start hitting hard every time someone relies on Gliscor to beat Lucario.</p>

<p>The ability to give all team archetypes trouble makes this one of the most useful Gengar sets. Offensive teams do not like facing fast and heavy hitters, and defensive teams do not like Pain Split which keeps Gengar alive. Because of this, Substitute + Pain Split Gengar makes a great addition to any team with the right support.</p>

---

Gj, changes in bold, most of the changes are subjective anyways. I've seen this set in action, good job with the innovative stuff! again..

 

[Zeyre]

Could Focus Punch be mentioned in here somewhere?
It can provide an easier way to take out Blissey since Focus Blast has only 8 PP and Focus Punch, correct me if I'm wrong, can have over 30.

Just a thought

 

[MetaNite]

Could Focus Punch be mentioned in here somewhere?
It can provide an easier way to take out Blissey since Focus Blast has only 8 PP and Focus Punch, correct me if I'm wrong, can have over 30.

Just a thought

There is already a Substitute + Focus Punch set on site. On top of that, there is already a purely Special Attacking Substitute set. To be honest, I really don't think this deserves its own set.

To get technical here, most Blissey actually do carry a move to break Gengar's Substitutes (otherwise why would they switch in). If you combine Ice Beam's usage plus Flamethrower's, you get more than 50% of Blissey carrying an attacking move.

Also, isn't it quiet likely you will run out of Focus Blast PP trying to 2HKO Blissey? Yeah sure you can stall it out with Pain Split, but I don't think a Blissey would even risk that unless totally necessary. Hidden Power Fire is also a lot better than Pain Split on a Substitute set. Scizor is a lot higher in usage than Blissey, and as such I'd rather have a move to beat Scizor than one that may beat Blissey. In conclusion, I feel you can just easily slap Pain Split onto the Special Attacking "additional comments" and make Life Orb an option. A lot of the comments are actually repeated from other sets, for instance how Shadow Ball and Focus Blast get perfect neutral coverage, how Substitute gives you a shield against Scizor and Tyranitar, as well as how Heatran makes a good partner to Tyranitar. This set just seems unnecessary especially since we seem to be trimming down analyses =/

 

[Philip7086]

There is already a Substitute + Focus Punch set on site. On top of that, there is already a purely Special Attacking Substitute set. To be honest, I really don't think this deserves its own set.

To get technical here, most Blissey actually do carry a move to break Gengar's Substitutes (otherwise why would they switch in). If you combine Ice Beam's usage plus Flamethrower's, you get more than 50% of Blissey carrying an attacking move.

Also, isn't it quiet likely you will run out of Focus Blast PP trying to 2HKO Blissey? Yeah sure you can stall it out with Pain Split, but I don't think a Blissey would even risk that unless totally necessary. Hidden Power Fire is also a lot better than Pain Split on a Substitute set. Scizor is a lot higher in usage than Blissey, and as such I'd rather have a move to beat Scizor than one that may beat Blissey. In conclusion, I feel you can just easily slap Pain Split onto the Special Attacking "additional comments" and make Life Orb an option. A lot of the comments are actually repeated from other sets, for instance how Shadow Ball and Focus Blast get perfect neutral coverage, how Substitute gives you a shield against Scizor and Tyranitar, as well as how Heatran makes a good partner to Tyranitar. This set just seems unnecessary especially since we seem to be trimming down analyses =/

I was considering trying to make this an additional part of the Substitute Special Attacker, but the fact of the matter is, they play almost completely differently. Putting Life Orb as an option on that set is just not a good idea, as it should ONLY be used in conjunction with Pain Split. Also, HP Fire is great on Gengar, but I wouldn't say it's superior to Pain Split, ever. The fact that you lose the speed tie versus Latias and other Gengar is reason alone to second-guess the use of HP Fire. As for Blissey, I have never faced a Blissey and lost with this set. Flamethrower and Ice Beam only do a maximum of 30.9% to Gengar, meaning they can't KO you, and you can keep Pain Splitting. Finally, you have to realize that the instant Blissey does not use Wish or Softboiled after a Pain Split, and you use Focus Blast, the Blissey loses. That's it. It's too late. Because of that, Blissey HAS to heal or else die, and you can just keep Pain Splitting to drain it of its Wishes/Softboileds. On top of it all, the extra power gained from Life Orb is insanely beneficial for Gengar, which is lacking in the standard Substitute special attacker set. With this set, you get the best of all worlds basically: the ability to hide behind a sub, the ability to hit extremely powerfully, and the ability to beat Blissey. Can you now honestly tell me that this can just be slashed into the Substitute set?

If more people agree that this set doesn't add anything to the Gengar analysis, then that's fine, I'll close this topic. However, I will completely disagree with you. I use Gengar on a lot of teams, and believe me, this set has been much more effective than any other Gengar I have tried, ESPECIALLY since the rise of Scarf TTar, making MYSTCGar (the previous best Gengar set) a lot less useful.

 

[DJXO9]

Normally I would proofread this, but multiple people but me to it. So, I'm posting just to vouch for this set. I've seen it used many, many times, and have used it a few times myself. It plays a lot differently than the other sets, and is extremely effective lategame.

 

[Golden Sun]

Normally I would proofread this, but multiple people but me to it. So, I'm posting just to vouch for this set. I've seen it used many, many times, and have used it a few times myself. It plays a lot differently than the other sets, and is extremely effective lategame.

It is really effective lategame and the thing I like about this set is the ability to beat Gengar's most common switch scarftar (providing you sub as they switch it in)

 

[Colonel M]

Hm, is it possible to withstand a Blissey Ice Beam without losing much of its EV figure? By the way, if people use the WishBliss EVs, Blissey breaks Gengar's Substitute (26.1% - 31%).

 

[Fuzznip]

Gengar will have to use up a lot of EVs in order to withstand Blissey's Ice Beam. It needs well over 110 EVs in Special Defense to take 21% - 23% - 26%, which makes it significantly weaker offensively. I don't think it's worth it.

 

[Philip7086]

Hm, is it possible to withstand a Blissey Ice Beam without losing much of its EV figure? By the way, if people use the WishBliss EVs, Blissey breaks Gengar's Substitute (26.1% - 31%).

I can probably try to mess w/ the EVs to take an Ice Beam or Flamethrower from Blissey, but I don't think the set will appreciate the decrease in Special Attack. Blissey doesn't usually get a chance to attack Gengar, though, cause this is how the match usually plays out:

Gengar switches in on something and uses Substitute as opponent switches in Blissey.
Blissey uses Ice Beam to break sub while Gengar Pain Splits.
Now Blissey has to heal or die, so Gengar can sub again and start it all over.
etc.
etc.

Keep in mind, you're also faster so your Subs go up before Blissey can attack, and if Bliss keeps breaking subs, then you can just Pain Split to full heath again easily.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

There is already a Substitute + Focus Punch set on site. On top of that, there is already a purely Special Attacking Substitute set. To be honest, I really don't think this deserves its own set.

It's a legit set with a different item, different playstyle, and a VERY important different move. It gets its own set for the same reason that Focus Punch got split off of the general Substitute set.

EDIT:

This set just seems unnecessary especially since we seem to be trimming down analyses =/

It's important to note the difference between "trimming down analyses" and "trimming down sets". We want each set to be as readable as possible, but we also want to cover all viable and effective sets. Project: Concise isn't about "removing words", it's about "removing unnecessary words". A completely viable set is pretty much the definition of "necessary words".

 

[diinbong]

<p>The combination of Substitute and Pain Split allows Gengar to take out Pokemon it normally would not be able to, most notably Blissey. After Substitute and two Pain Splits (or one if sandstorm is in effect), Blissey’s health will be low enough so that Focus Blast is a 2HKO. This means that Blissey will constantly need to be healing herself after each Pain Split, or else risk being KOed. This is where Pain Split’s 32 PP comes into play: Blissey can only heal herself 16 times from Wish or Softboiled, meaning that you can easily stall those moves out. If Blissey does not use a healing move to conserve PP, then she is at huge risk of being 2HKOed by Focus Blast. Finally, most Blissey do not carry an attacking move that can break Gengar’s Substitute, meaning Gengar can usually come out of the duel unscathed.<p>

<p>Since Gengar does such a great job of luring and beating Blissey, it is recommended that this set be paired up with Pokemon who are normally walled by Blissey, but do a fantastic job at sweeping otherwise. These include Pokemon like offensive Suicune, Substitute + Agility Empoleon, offensive Starmie, and Heatran, among many others. Although this set can sweep on its own, the fact that it can also clear the way for other sweepers (remove "like this") should be exploited to its fullest.</p>

<p>Due to Gengar's paper-thin defenses, it is usually very risky to switch it into an attack; even though it packs impressive immunities, a wrong prediction can end Gengar’s life before it sees any action. However, there are ways to “guarantee” a safe switch in for Gengar by using Pokemon such as Heatran with Substitute. Because Heatran draws in Fighting- and Ground-type attacks, Gengar can come in safely while Heatran switches out from behind a Substitute; people generally do not try to predict switch-ins against Pokemon who have a Substitute up. As a bonus, Gengar does not have to worry about switching into something like a Thunder Wave from Blissey when using this strategy, which is one of the biggest concerns when contemplating whether or not to switch Gengar in. This strategy can be used with other Pokemon who have similar weaknesses, like Tyranitar or Empoleon. Tyranitar in particular is recommended, as the sandstorm that he provides makes it significantly easier for Gengar to beat Blissey.</p>

hey Phil. Great writeup-very few complaints from me.

 

[Justinawe]

Just wanted to say I have used this set on a team with Toxic Spikes support, and this can 6-0 teams all by itself. Very great set Phil, and definitely worthy of being added to the analysis!

 

[Darkmalice]

[/COLOR][/COLOR] [SET]
name: Sub + Pain Split
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Pain Split
move 3: Shadow Ball
move 4: Focus Blast
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With the release of Heart Gold and Soul Silver came a new toy for Gengar to play with: Pain Split. By utilizing a combination of Substitute and Pain Split, Gengar becomes near impossible to wall, even with Blissey. Pain Split also allows Gengar to safely run Substitute and Life Orb at the same time, all the while taking damage from sandstorm and hail, as it can easily just heal itself back to high health; in fact, taking so much residual damage only increases the amount of HP that Gengar sucks away from its opponents. Of course, Gengar is notorious for its ability to sweep, with its massive Special Attack stat and base Speed of 110. Although this set loses some super effective coverage due to the lack of attacking move slots, Gengar still maintains perfect neutral coverage with the unresisted Fighting- and Ghost-type combination. The fact that both Shadow Ball and Focus Blast have an effective Base Power of 120 (thanks to STAB on Shadow Ball), coupled with Gengar’s base Special Attack stat of 130, makes Gengar just as effective of a special sweeper as ever, while maintaining more survivability and the ability to break walls better thanks to Pain Split.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>One of the biggest drawbacks to using any Gengar set is how fragile it is. Gengar is OHKOed by a Choice Band Bullet Punch from Scizorremove "," and takes a huge hit from a Tyranitar's Choice Scarf Pursuit, making it very hard for Gengar to sweep for long. The use of Substitute effectively solves this problem, though, as Gengar can provide itself with a safety blanket to switch out of harm’s way without getting hit by Pursuit. Substitute also protects Gengar from nasty status effects, namely paralysis, which can immediately stop Gengar’s sweep. Substitute also eases the prediction required for Gengar to effectively sweep by allowing it to scout which Pokemon the opponent switches in before deciding what to attack it with. The combination of Substitute and Life Orb is generally not recommended due to how fast Gengar ends up killing itself, but with Pain Split, this becomes a nonissue.</p>

Didn't do a full grammar check, because everyone else seems to have picked up on the other mistakes. To make up for this, I'll give some advice like Fuzznip did:

The red word seems to be describing "impossible", so "near" would be better. Should you want "nearly," it would be placed in front of "becomes."

2. No comma, because the subject (Gengar) does not change and is not mentioned in that phrase.

Anyways, I like this set. Pain Split really needs more love! Well written too.

 

[Theorymon]

Maybe its just me, but I feel that the last paragraph is sort of uneeded. If anything, the stuff in the last paragraph could be mentioned in the first paragraph.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Just wanted to say I have used this set on a team with Toxic Spikes support, and this can 6-0 teams all by itself. Very great set Phil, and definitely worthy of being added to the analysis!

^Id just like to confirm this.

Toxic Spikes are great to support this set and i feel they could be mentioned in set comments at least. They destroy Blissey and make this Gengar all the more annoying.

 

[Optimusje]

Posting to say this is a great set (I think I posted this in some social group a few months ago as well). Also mentioning toxic spikes somewhere would help, as it provides great support for this gengar.