CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 5b - Ability Poll 2

[beej]

Down to Intimidate and Trace. Choose the ability you think will best fulfill the concept.

Intimidate - Lowers the opponent's Attack stat by one stage (original stat multiplied by 2/3) upon switching in.

Trace - Copies the ability of the foe upon switching in.

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105

• As always, your posts MUST have substance to them. No "I voted for x" posts. This is a discussion thread.

 

[Rhys29]

Intimidate doesn't support diversity and customization. There will be no need for a second ability if Intimidate goes through since every physical threat is handled and with the right investment so is every special threat. In fact it doesn't even have to invest too much into Def in order to deal with a large array of Attack based set up sweepers.

Trace Intimidates two important opponents and provides excellent switches against a very limited number of opponents. Spreads built to counter special threats won't also be able to soft counter tons of physical threats via ability alone. Trace is also about 100x more versatile.

 

[Vaz]

Intimidate provides better bulk for the pokemon so it can then focus more on investing into its Speed which is vital against defeating the chosen pokemon. With that said it still does not provide greatness against pokemon such as Latias, Rotom-A and even Metagross so it shall require a second ability to tackle the other pokemon in which this ability does not. Trace just seems to gimmicky and will not work well against all pokemon.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

To be fair if Trace win the polls, you probably would't need for a second ability as they're nothing that could be any more useful than Trace...unless Intimidate appears again. Anyway I voted for Intimidates based on reasoning from people like Rising_Dusk and ShavrenP. Versatility, diversity, and creativity are being blown way out of proportion within this project.

 

[SJCrew]

The problem I have with Trace being its primary ability rather than its secondary, is that it's simply not has helpful as Intimidate. Intimidate may be a little widespread, but the most important thing about it is that it actually helps CAP counter Pokemon who may otherwise be too strong for it to deal with.

Tracing Intimidate helps against Mence and Gyarados, but what about the other OUs? If I come in on Dragonite or Lucario, I trace Inner Focus, which doesn't help me at all because they'll have already used a boosting move by the time I come in and will OHKO before I can take them out. CAP10 will face similar problems with other OUs as well, such as Scizor, Machamp, Kingdra, Tyranitar, Infernape, and Heracross.

We have to stop looking at the cool or novelty factor for a moment and start thinking about which of these ideas might actually help CAP function as a utility counter. Its inherent defenses simply arent enough to counter everything in the OU metagame, so it needs something in its favor to cushion the blow. For this reason, I believe Intimidate is the clear choice.

 

[Deck Knight]

We have to stop looking at the cool or novelty factor for a moment and start thinking about which of these ideas might actually help CAP function as a utility counter. Its inherent defenses simply arent enough to counter everything in the OU metagame, so it needs something in its favor to cushion the blow. For this reason, I believe Intimidate is the clear choice.

The concept of this CAP is inherently based in *not* countering everything in the OU metagame at once, which is exactly what Intimidate does. ShravenP's post on what a 252/252 CAP with Intimidate does basically turned every physical attack that wasn't STAB EQ into a 4HKO. That's ridiculous for this concept. If we wanted an all purpose wall then Intmidate would be the clear choice.

Intimidate is not a cushion, it is generally excessive. It adds basically the entirety of non-Ground physical Attackers into CAP10's "hard-countered" list.

 

[SJCrew]

The concept of this CAP is inherently based in *not* countering everything in the OU metagame at once, which is exactly what Intimidate does.

Intimidate makes it capable of countering a variety of OU threats, but it still has to tailor its EVs and movepool to the Pokemon in specific it wants to counter. There are still a good number of special attacker or walls that don't care a lick about Intimidate. Even on the physical spectrum, it has to decide between running speed or defenses, as Intimidate isn't enough to deter some of the strongest physical attackers unless you've invested in enough defense to take a follow-up attack.

If you're running speed and Sp. Def to counter MixMence, then you won't be able to take on Lucario or Choice Banders. If you run all defense for DD variants, it won't help you against Latias. There's absolutely no way for CAP10 to counter everything or even most things with one set.

The concept of CAP10 isn't to make it as limited and gimmicky as possible or it won't be useful and nobody's going to bother with it. It's supposed to be able to counter a wide variety of OUs, but having only four moveslots, limited defensive capabilities, and only so many EVs to work with do well enough to keep it at bay. Its stats are modest enough that we don't have to impose yet another handicap to make it even worse.

Oh, and you totally should have addressed this part of my post:

the most important thing about it is that it actually helps CAP counter Pokemon who may otherwise be too strong for it to deal with

To add to that, CAP doesn't have any good physical resists to work with and it's weak to EQ, so it really does need the help.

 

[Deck Knight]

Intimidate makes it capable of countering a variety of OU threats, but it still has to tailor its EVs and movepool to the Pokemon in specific it wants to counter. There are still a good number of special attacker or walls that don't care a lick about Intimidate. Even on the physical spectrum, it has to decide between running speed or defenses, as Intimidate isn't enough to deter some of the strongest physical attackers unless you've invested in enough defense to take a follow-up attack.

Let's say you're running speed and Sp. Def to counter MixMence, then you try to use that same Pokemon to counter Lucario.

"sup lucario i have intimidate"
"k"

*OHKOs with +1 CC*

or perhaps Scizor

"oh hi scizor can i ohko you with surf"
"no"

*kills with +1 Bug Bite and Bullet Punch*


The concept of CAP10 isn't to make it as limited and gimmicky as possible or it won't be useful and nobody's going to bother with it. It's supposed to be able to counter a wide variety of OUs, but having only four moveslots, limited defensive capabilities, and only so many EVs to work with do well enough to keep it at bay. We don't have to impose yet another handicap to make it even worse.

Dayum, how will I argue with an uncalced argument wherein a MixMence countering CAP10 with Spe and SpD (by your own admission) is outsped by Lucario (slower than Mence) using Close Combat after getting in Swords Dance, and an SD Scizor that somehow finishes CAP10 off with an 4x resisted Bullet Punch after Bug Bite.

Hint: Use Flamethrower, not Surf.

I assure you it can already counter a wide variety of OUs with stats and some basic coverage moves alone. I submit to you that CAP10 would function just fine with no ability at all. But as Abilities are part of Pokemon we should choose one that fits our concept the best, which in this case is custom tailoring a mon that can counter a wide variety of threats, but not all at once.

The only one suggesting CAP10 would be limited or gimmicky without Intimidate is you, using the weakest unbacked reasoning I have seen yet. If you wanted to counter Salamence, Lucario, and Scizor why wouldn't you have run Flamethrower? I submit if CAP10 is gimmicky in your scenario its because you have gimped its ability to counter what you want. Ice Beam and Flamethrower cover all 3 pokemon in your scenario. Hardly a case of 4mss, you still have room for STAB and Recovery.

 

[familyguyman]

Going with Trace again. A customizable Pokemon will benefit from a variable ability. It might not be "customizable" but it can be applied to specifically counter a few things while also being a diverse ability.

 

[ShravanP]

I voted Intimidate. I understand the arguments against it, but I've said everything in the other thread.

tl;dr: Yes, Intimidate lets it tank better, but without the right moveset, it's a very fat sitting duck. And it's precisely this reason that ensures that Intimidate doesn't turn it into a general-purpose counter. There's nothing wrong with being generally tough to take down, as 4 moveslot syndrome will pretty much ensure that CAP10 becomes impotent when faced with something it's not meant to face.

 

[SJCrew]

Hint: Use Flamethrower, not Surf.

We don't know if it has that yet, so I assumed Surf.

I submit to you that CAP10 would function just fine with no ability at all.

No, it absolutely will not because DD Gyara and Mence will stomp its ass with +1 EQs no matter what it runs. Those are two of the most important sweepers in OU, and there's no way it's going to be useful if it can't at least counter those two. Trace might help it counter them, but what about DD TTar? DD Dragonite? DD Kingdra? SD Infernape or Lucario? CB anything? That's way too many OU threats left unchecked. If you can seriously say it can take all of those guys on without Intimidate, then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Rhys29]

No, it absolutely will not because DD Gyara and Mence will stomp its ass with +1 EQs no matter what it runs.

Why is everyone so convinced nothing besides Filter and Levitate will stop CAP10 from being OHKO'd from Earthquake? A simple Shuca Berry will provide a turn for CAP10 to counter just about everything that pumps out incredibly dangerous Earthquakes.

 

[Shock Trooper]

Honestly, the CAP project is made to learn. There are no Trace users commonly seen in OU outside of the occasional Porygon2. I feel creating a new Pokemon that utilizes Trace will be a great way to learn more about the metagame. We already have several users of Intimidate in all fields of the metagame bar Uber.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

I voted Intimidate. I understand the arguments against it, but I've said everything in the other thread.

tl;dr: Yes, Intimidate lets it tank better, but without the right moveset, it's a very fat sitting duck. And it's precisely this reason that ensures that Intimidate doesn't turn it into a general-purpose counter. There's nothing wrong with being generally tough to take down, as 4 moveslot syndrome will pretty much ensure that CAP10 becomes impotent when faced with something it's not meant to face.

Hi I'm CAP10. I run Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/*insert coverage move here". Look, with Intimidate, even if you tailor it specifically to fight off DDmence, this set would be able to take down almost any physical attacker in the metagame. Say the additional coverage move was Flamethrower. Oh look you can now kill off Scizor, Physical Mence, Tyranitar, Infernape, Gyarados, Jirachi, Lucario, the list goes on, with just one set. If you EV CAP 10 defensively, you can now counter ALL of these Pokemon. I do not think 4mss will be a problem at all.

Trace is more versatile, it gives you a better answer to some of the top special attackers (Heatran) and does not counter the entire physical portion of the metagame. And as an above poster said, Trace would be more of a learning experience. Porygon2 is rare, yet Gyarados and Salamence are in the Top 10.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Hi I'm CAP10. I run Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/*insert coverage move here". Look, with Intimidate, this set would be able to take down almost any physical attacker in the metagame. Say the additional coverage move was Flamethrower. Oh look you can now kill off Scizor, Physical Mence, Tyranitar, Infernape, Gyarados, Jirachi, Lucario, the list goes on. If you EV CAP 10 defensively, you can now counter ALL of these Pokemon. I do not think 4mss will be a problem at all.

With base 83 SpA, you're not "taking down" every physical attacker in the game - not even a majority of them. Intimidate in no way helps the offensive prowess of CAP10, rather it specifically makes physical Pokemon it switches into hit softer so that it can check more threats and be generally more useful over the course of a match. Note, the keyword there is check, not counter. Intimidate is not letting CAP10 soft counter the entire physical metagame.

Without Intimidate, you cannot reliably switch into Machamp, Lucario, Infernape, Heracross, or Tyranitar. Intimidate lets you check a lot of threats you couldn't otherwise, and generally keeps CAP10 from being useless against threats it isn't designed to beat and teams that lack its targets.

People seem to consistently forget that Intimidate only acts upon the Pokemon you switch into. This means that if CAP10 can even possibly conceive "walling" anything physical, it has to switch into it. As soon as the opponent switches out, Intimidate is lost. That means that if you think you're being brilliant and using 252 HP/252 SpD EVs, you'll likely be forced out the turn after you switch in by something that threatens to rip you apart. That isn't "walling a significant portion of the metagame." If anything, it keeps CAP10 from having to serve as death fodder against threats like Breloom or Mamoswine if it absolutely has to switch into them. I would much rather Intimidate for its reliability, as opposed to intentionally and substantially reducing the general viability of CAP10 for no better reason than "Trace is an uncommon ability in OU!"

Trace is more versatile, it gives you a better answer to some of the top special attackers (Heatran) and does not counter the entire physical portion of the metagame.

What is Heatran doing to you anyways? Heatran's Fire Blast is doing 24.9% - 29.2% to a 252/0 neutral-natured CAP10. Even when Flash Fire boosted it fails to 3HKO CAP10 considering Leftovers. The only special attacker that is better handled with Trace in all of OU is Jolteon, whereas Intimidate helps you check numerous more threats without being too potent.

 

[benthenoob]

I don't often post on these anymore, and when I do, it seems I get some sort of warning for only lurking.

With that in mind, it seems Intimidate goes directly against the entire idea of "This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time." Stat spread and movepool depending, all of the sudden, you can switch in on any physically-based sweeper with impunity.

Again, stat spread and movepool depending, Trace more effectively meets the goal of being customized to take on a limited range of Pokemon without being able to effectively shut down an entire "genre" of offensive pokes.

Besides, if EQ is such a threat, secondary abilities (like levitate) actually promote the idea of being able to take on some pokes but not others.

It's pretty clear, if creating a quality poke is the goal, Intimidate is the path to take. But that isn't the goal.

Frankly, I wish neither were an option.
But, since this is what we've been provided with, IMO, it's not much of an argument.

 

[Raikaria]

Most of what I am saying is agreeing with Deck Knight.

This CAP is suppposed to be tailorable to be able to counter specific threats, but not large numbers at one time. So far... CAP 10 has 0 customisability. With Intimidate... it still has 0, because since OU is physically dominated, Intimidate will be the selected ability every single time... and it counters too much of OU to be in line with the concept, especially with CAP10's defensive stats.

Trace can be used to help CAP 10 counter specific threats. I mean, sure, you have Trace for Salamance, but if you want CAP10 to be a Mance counter, it'd probobly need Sp.Def as well. You wouldn't need this [As much] with Intimidate.

Trace has uses outside of countering what it's sent out against. Send out CAP10 against a weakened Rotom, finish it off, oh look, you have Earthuake immunity! Trace could develop a lot more stratagy with CAP10 then Intimidate ever could.

Also, as I'm stated many times prior to this, Intimidate will compound the 'OMG Retreat' and then 'CAP10 gets torn apart by hazards for nothing'. Trace, at least there's some lasting benifit if you trace Levitate, Volt Absorb, ect.

Finally, CAP is supposed to be about investigateing OU. There's more than enough Intimidaters. There are no OU tracers. So, Trace helps fufill CAP's mission better too.

As such, I'm voting for Trace.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

In the earlier days of the metagame, Porygon2 was used for sucking up Heatran's Fire Blast, and Salamence and Gyara's attacks with Trace. It went into NU after more reliable things were discovered, but it was quite good at it nevertheless. I support bringing back Trace into the active metagame.

 

[Azule]

Going with Trace because it's sticking to the concept. Intimidate seems like a way to ensure it'll be useful even after its taken down the Pokemon it's meant to, imo.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Voted for Intimidate.

To those who think Trace is better than Intimidate: I'm just going to make this simple because it's really really late (or early). Here is a partial list of Pokemon we will counter with Intimidate that we will not be able to counter with Trace:

DDTar (you know that popular sweeper thing that any utility counter should probably be able to deal with)

CBTar (assuming no instant recovery, even if we do have it TTar wins through Crunch DEF drops/Stone Edge crits/Earthquake)

SD Ape (we outspeed Luke yay too bad Infernape has nearly the same ATK stat and can actually kill us before we touch it..and have fun tracing Blaze)

DD Dragonite (ha I can just trace Intimi-oh fuck)

Kingdra (you get to trace Swift Swim and still be slower than it while it gets to smack you around with +1 Outrages while you fire neutral attacks off 83 SATK or use useless status moves against a susbtitute...or you can Intimidate and comfortably stall it out)

Mamoswine (pretty self-explanatory here)

I could go on, and there are plenty more examples.

Now, to those who think Intimidate is too good: Please note that all it does is give us the ability to actually counter the things that we want it to counter. We still need to run specific devoted moves and possibly stat spreads to counter special Pokemon; try to use the same Surfs on TTar that you would on Infernape and you'll quickly get your ass handed to you. Intimidate does let CAP10 counter a large number of physical threats, but it does not do so automatically; it only does so if CAP10 is equipped to deal with the things its taking hits from in the first place, which fulfills the concept of a Utility counter just fine. Like, if you try to use a 252HP/252DEF spread meant to counter Dragon Dancers to counter something like Sand Veil SD Gliscor, you are NOT going to have a fun time, Intimidate or no.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Okaaay...



Reasons Intimidate is not the be-all-and-end-all of everything:

1. Metagross and Gliscor aren't affected by it.
2. Earthquake is an immensely common move. From what I can see, if you aren't running the move to deal with a threat (eg. Ice Beam for Salamence, Grass Knot for Swampert etc.) you'll be trampled on regardless of whether you Intimidate them, and ESPECIALLY if they got a boost beforehand, or you aren't also running full defensive EVs. This means that SD Breloom, DD Tyranitar and DD Salamence among others are left unaccounted for.
3. As Rising_Dusk said, Intimidate only allows us to counter what we switch in on, that is to say, it doesn't somehow mash up its defensive stats to ridiculous levels. So it becomes a lot less useful once it has done the business of countering - And for some reason some people in this thread (ominous nod) have been first arguing that Intimidate is broken for yada yada reason, and then that Trace is 'better' as it has a lasting benefit. So... does that mean that Trace is more broken?

Also, what's wrong with defensive versatility in the most general sense? A Pokemon geared to counter Gyarados is almost certainly going to counter Feraligatr as well; I can't see why so many people are arguing against Intimidate on the basis that "It should be useless after finishing the Pokemon it was intended to counter". Now, I'm no genius, far from it, but what the hell is the point of that? If this Pokemon is simply dead weight on a team once its job is done, what's the point in using it over something that isn't? It's not really defensive versatility in the true sense, whatever the wording of the concept was. Regardless, CAP10 is almost certainly going to soft counter at least a quarter of OU Pokemon just by existing on the field, and Intimidate doesn't increase that number; it just increases resilience against these Pokemon, and means it isn't immediately crippled by the rest; to actually stop the rest of the metagame requires a different ability, different EVs, different moveset. To those who want Trace, it is FAR too late to make it a perfect counter to only one Pokemon at a time - Deck Knight's stat spread makes sure of that. I made a table in the Concept Assessment thread with reference to the fact that CAP10 would inevitably end up in the role of dealing with different 'groups' or 'factions' of Pokemon - dealing with individuals, without an EXTREMELY volatile ability, or *perhaps* Multitype, is quite impossible given the circumstances.


There is a reason that Porygon2 and Gardevoir are NU. They are pretty much useless for anything except the most specific of options; neither of them have that much customisability, either. Result? The depths and bottomless holes of infamy. Even if we give it a better second ability, will anybody besides the fanboys seriously use Trace competitively?

Voting Intimidate.

 

[Deck Knight]

We don't know if it has that yet, so I assumed Surf.


No, it absolutely will not because DD Gyara and Mence will stomp its ass with +1 EQs no matter what it runs. Those are two of the most important sweepers in OU, and there's no way it's going to be useful if it can't at least counter those two. Trace might help it counter them, but what about DD TTar? DD Dragonite? DD Kingdra? SD Infernape or Lucario? CB anything? That's way too many OU threats left unchecked. If you can seriously say it can take all of those guys on without Intimidate, then you're sadly mistaken.

Aside from say, Choice Scarf (IBeam or Tbolt can OHKO) or Shuca Berry?

Myopia is the biggest problem here. If you think Intimidate is specifically going to stop CBTar or Groos spamming Earthquake you're mistaken as well. Why do Kingdra and Infernape keep coming up? Thunder Wave is the only way you're dealing with DD Kingdra, Thunderbolt doesn't come close to addressing it, and since I've demonstrated you can build a spread to survive +1 Naive LO Mence Outrage at the outset, I'm fairly certain you can take +1 LO Kingdra Outrage as well. (Bonus: Trace helps you counter RD Kingdra better, but that's neither here nor there.) It's the same with Infernape. Honestly, people are pointing to Infernape in the first place? When did Infernape lose it's paper defenses and weakness to Water? Assuming you aren't running Scarf, what stops us from just running Aqua Jet to pick it off. We can't assume ANY attack, INCLUDING Surf at this point, so that argument is irrelevant.

If there's an uptick in Dragonite usage over Mence because Trace does so much better against Mence and DNite has much better SpD, I'd mark that as a victory for CAP10 (Dragonite has it's own weaknesses to exploit). Intimidate blanket covers anything that uses physical attacks. There's no reason not to use another OU viable Intimidator with Attack diversity, no matter whether it counters something your team has trouble with or not.

The fact Intimidate supporters are treating Intimidate as an easy mode stop to all physical attackers is the point. They're even silly enough to list Mamoswine who STILL comfortably 2HKOs you with Earthquake, or OHKO with CB or LO. That's the kind of mentality I want to avoid. It makes our concept more akin to "CAP10: A Pokemon you can slap on any team to offer a third Intimidate user to a Salamence/Gyarados/CAP10 offensive core."

 

[Objection]

Versatility, diversity, and creativity are being blown way out of proportion within this project.

As much as I agree, the fact is: there is no existing ability that embodies the concept of being able to counter a lot but only a little at once* so we have to think outside the box a little. I know an ability along the lines of trapping only one specific pokemon was suggested, and while I believe that it was a rather extreme idea, it definitely embodies the concept more than Intimidate and maybe more than Trace too. The good news is, both abilities are only effective against certain pokemon, so whichever one wins, the second ability should only be effective against the pokemon that the first one wasn't. If Intimidate wins, then a similar ability that lowers either special attack or a defensive stat would pair nicely. If Trace wins, then we'll have to compile a list of top OU threats that Trace isn't beneficial against, and consider what sorts of ability would work well against those but not against the likes of Gyarados and Flygon and Jolteon.

*Right, I'm sick of this overly subjective definition so I'm gonna throw out a random number in an attempt to make the definition more objective: CAP10 should be able to counter no more than 6 of the top 20 OU threats with any given moveset. Disagreement expected.

 

[ShravanP]

It's probably a bit late to swing the vote now, but the argument that "oh we've got Shuca berry, why do we need Intimidate?" is absurd. You've got Shuca berry? Wonderful, switch in once, use up the berry, and watch in disdain as the opponent just switches out to come back at a later time. And when they do, where's your shuca berry now?

 

[Str0ngbad]

OK, honestly, how many times do you have to force a threat out to be considered a soft counter? First off, no one can use Mence as an argument as he is dealt with exactly the same with trace as he is with intimidate. Furthermore all this talk of "how will you survive so-and-so's +? (insert attack name)?!" is retarded. This thing has 105 speed. What physical threats outspeed you AND go +? Salamence, Gyarados, Tyranitar, and Kingdra. Salmaence and Gyarados are treated the same way with either ability, Kingdra will need to be T-waved either way and will not be OHKOing at +1 anyway, and that leaves Tyranitar and if you wanted to counter +speed pokes then you should be running a set with a scarf. Everything else will be outsped and hit first. Shuca berry could be helpful but look at the calcs again; almost nothing can OHKO this thing with EQ even without a berry. These crazy concerns of Lucario pounding you with a +2 close combat... We outspeed him so unless you are retarded he shouldn't get to use Close Combat on you after you switch in. Find a Tyranitar, Lucario, Infernape set that this CAP cannot be tailored to beat without intimidate and you'll get my attention.

To summarize: Intimidate is retarded and destroys the concept. Period.