np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head

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Hmm, that's true too. But tspikes are so pointless in UU that the only way you're going to get anything done is by stacking a shit ton of hazards, and even that's not going to be too effective since a lot that handles Flareon just fine. In that case I'd just go with Toxic, since I'm seeing it more as an "Oh shit moltres/alakazam/whatever" button than something like Steelix, which has the bulk and typing to sit there and scare out a lot of things.
 
Or instead use Slowking, with 80/80/110 defenses he works well at fending off Moltres as well as many of the threats that Slowbro generally covers.

Also, "Pokemon X having a movepool of X,Y, and/or Z with all possible EV spreads" is a pretty lame argument/ counter-argument.

The option to be versatile and/or the need not to be versatile is an example of a good argument, IMO. Looking at previous discussions...

Yanmega was a very versatile Pokemon having several sets such as LO, Reversal, Specs, and so on at his disposal. However, at the same time he could simply use the Specs Lens set and proceed to decimate teams. Garchomp, Latias (from my understanding), Shaymin, and Staraptor would be another example of a Pokemon in this category.

Cressalia on the other hand had versatility; which I believe brings up the "Pokemon X having a movepool of X,Y, and/or Z with all possible EV spreads" bullcrap. Cressalia didn't have 1 specific set that straight-up owned shit. She did however have access to several support options as well as a means to increase her attack stat. Having the correct support options (in Cress's case, as well as superior a superior stat spread) is all that it takes. Wobbuffet and Gallade would be an example of this class.

And then there are the ones with options but it would be almost insane to drift away from the standard. Honchkrow and Crobat, would be an example of these.

By no means am I implying that Crobat, Honchkrow, or Gallade are 'broken'.

With that said, lets refrain from attacking weak arguments with weak counter-arguments.
 
So, after actually abusing Froslass, I have discovered that the Scarf set is absolutely gold. Spikes/Trick/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt is really fun to use. I would normally just Spike the field even with my Scarf on, as Froslass can be a great revenge killer later. Stuff like Swellow and Rain sweepers never see Thunderbolt/Ice Beam coming, believing they are faster than me. I've even revenged Kabutops in the rain, because they go for the Waterfall instead of Aqua Jet.
 
I've been recently testing a trap team to set up a Swellow or Raikou sweep and it has really been working well for me. Honestly, Magneton is really underrated and is a huge pain in once it takes out Registeel/Steelix because oftentimes that is there only defensive backbone leaving a huge hole for my pokemon to sweep through.
 
Honestly, just use Dugtrio. It just may be me but when I use Magneton to trap shit like Registeel, the opposing Registeel always seemed to have S-Toss. Also, Dugtrio can trap Chansey which would aid in your Raikou sweep.
 
Magneton really makes no sense to use for Raikou; they share the same weaknesses except for Registeel....who Magneton can't switch into anyway. Chansey walls both. Why not use Dugtrio with Beat Up for Chansey?

It makes more sense for Swellow though, since you are going to be resisting basically all of Swellow's weaknesses and Chansey is a non-issue.
 
I don't think that versatility should be a direct factor in tier determination. One look at Clefable should sum up why I think this. The only reason I even mentioned Speed Boost earlier was that people tried to nominate it, too. Versatility is only a problem if it can actually take full advantage of the power of the main set. For example, Mixed Rayquaza probably wouldn't be as destructive as it is without the existence of Swords Dance Rayquaza, but because SD Ray exists, Mixquaza just about always gets a free kill. This is the kind of thing I would consider broken versatility, despite only two sets contributing to it.

(This wasn't meant to be an argument against banning Raikou per se. It could be argued that HP Grass Raikou takes advantage of the existence of HP Ice Raikou or w/e.)
 
capefeather said:
I don't think that versatility should be a direct factor in tier determination. One look at Clefable should sum up why I think this. The only reason I even mentioned Speed Boost earlier was that people tried to nominate it, too. Versatility is only a problem if it can actually take full advantage of the power of the main set. For example, Mixed Rayquaza probably wouldn't be as destructive as it is without the existence of Swords Dance Rayquaza, but because SD Ray exists, Mixquaza just about always gets a free kill. This is the kind of thing I would consider broken versatility, despite only two sets contributing to it.
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I guess the counter-argument would be that Clefable can't cover "almost every Pokemon" with its numerous sets. Like a Clefable with "every move and EV spread" can't beat something manly like Blaziken who OHKOes regardless. Cresselia and Raikou can just about cover everything.

I still stand by my point of it being logically inconsistent to ban Cresselia and not Raikou for essentially the same reasons. (this is where someone always says something like "but Cresselia can also run sets x,y, and z sooooooooooooo")
 
Hmm... i would use Registeel to set up myself instead of trapping him, considering that 90% of the time Registeel will try to Thunder Wave you. If you don't switch in directly into it, anything with Sub that isn't weak to steel attacks can do that.

Damn, even Whiscash works really well...
 
But you're not setting up ON Registeel... which it's a quite easy poke to set up against (provided you avoid Explosion).
Dugtrio will get rid of Registeel instead. Same to Magneton.
 
To the people who are mad at me for saying flame in many of my posts, I was not complaining about getting flamed. I was acting sarcastically towards the posts, so I was expecting to get flamed. So by defintion, I was trolling. It wasn't really trolling, but by definition it is. It was also reverse psychology. By saying you would flame me, you wouldn't actually flame me to prove me wrong. I realize I'm ranting, but I don't want you guys to be mad at me, so I'm just explaining.



I think Magneton is better at beating Registeel than Dugtrio. Like what was said, most Registeel run Iron Head and Seismic Toss. Magneton loses a bit more than a fourth of its health to Seismic Toss. Dugtrio will be almost dead after one Iron Head. If you want to beat Chansey, use Dugtrio. If you want to beat Registeel and/or Steelix, then use Magneton.
 
Lonewolf9196 said:
I think Magneton is better at beating Registeel than Dugtrio. Like what was said, most Registeel run Iron Head and Seismic Toss. Magneton loses a bit more than a fourth of its health to Seismic Toss. Dugtrio will be almost dead after one Iron Head. If you want to beat Chansey, use Dugtrio. If you want to beat Registeel and/or Steelix, then use Magneton.
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In other words: all down to preference
 
ZandgaiaX said:
In other words: all down to preference
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Not really. If you are using a Raikou or another special sweeper, use Dugtrio to remove all of your fat pink blob problems. If you're using Swellow or another physical sweeper, use Magneton to take out pesky Steels.
 
Lonewolf9196 said:
To the people who are mad at me for saying flame in many of my posts, I was not complaining about getting flamed. I was acting sarcastically towards the posts, so I was expecting to get flamed. So by defintion, I was trolling. It wasn't really trolling, but by definition it is. It was also reverse psychology. By saying you would flame me, you wouldn't actually flame me to prove me wrong. I realize I'm ranting, but I don't want you guys to be mad at me, so I'm just explaining.
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Holy shit.

Lonewolf9196 said:
If you are using a Raikou or another special sweeper, use Dugtrio to remove all of your fat pink blob problems. If you're using Swellow or another physical sweeper, use Magneton to take out pesky Steels.
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Yea, use Magneton to take out those Rock and Steel-types for Swellow....oh wait.

This is why Dugtrio is in fact better than Magneton with any sweeper (for trapping purposes), but Magneton is far more effective at doing things besides trapping and has a very interesting defensive typing.
 
Hmm... Magneton can't trap rock types.
But yeah, you know that.

Even then Duggie can't trap rock types properly - they are so bulky that they can survive a EQ sometimes (not you, Aggron).
Of course, Duggie takes off the weakened ones.

While Magneton can only trap Steels... but Magneton has a good attack unlike Dugtrio (really, 80 base attack?) and nice typing. It makes a nice Specs poke, that's for sure.
 
M BLADE said:
Hmm... Magneton can't trap rock types.
But yeah, you know that.

Even then Duggie can't trap rock types properly - they are so bulky that they can survive a EQ sometimes (not you, Aggron).
Of course, Duggie takes off the weakened ones.

While Magneton can only trap Steels... but Magneton has a good attack unlike Dugtrio (really, 80 base attack?) and nice typing. It makes a nice Specs poke, that's for sure.
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Unfortunately the latter is false. Magneton is outclassed as a Specs poke due to his "low" speed. Raikou is a better choice.

(In fact, Raikou is a "better" Choice for anything. One of the main reasons why I hate the pokemon)
 
PK Gaming said:
Unfortunately the latter is false. Magneton is outclassed as a Specs poke due to his "low" speed. Raikou is a better choice.

(In fact, Raikou is a "better" Choice for anything. One of the main reasons why I hate the pokemon)
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No, no. It isn't a matter of being outclassed or not.
Specs Magneton is nice. Ponto.
Being outclassed or not isn't my point.
 
Well Nasty plot Raichu is nice too. Base 100+ speed and 90 Base special attack is decent before boosting. After boosting is awesome though. It's a shame Raikou's Calm mind is almost always a better idea to use.
 
Well actually, Magneton isn't outclassed completely by Raikou as it has:

1) Higher special attack
2) Secondary STAB
3) Better defensive typing
4) Resistance to SR
5) Explosion
 
Ala said:
Well actually, Magneton isn't outclassed completely by Raikou as it has:

1) Higher special attack
2) Secondary STAB
3) Better defensive typing
4) Resistance to SR
5) Explosion
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Your being overly specific. Outclassed is bit harsh, but Raikou performs the set muuuuch metter.

1) Negligible.
2) Also negligible. Steel is horrible offensively, and Magneton has a much better time using Flash Canon.
3) True
4) True
5) Useless on a specs set

Raichu's Nasty plot pros over Raikou.
Note that the above true's don't really help THAT much on a specs user. Furthermore speed and bulk is important. (Magneton is actually pretty frail, taking a good chunk of damage even from resisted hits)

1) Stronger initially
2) Focus Blast and thus Raichu can damage steels
3) Focus Punch for Chansey and other special walls

Here I will counter my OWN points.

1) Negligible
2) It's shaky accuracy and the fact Raikou doesn't really need it (only for Registeel) makes that a situational pro. It is pretty nice though.
3) True, but do note that it's bad using Focus Punch is pointless due to Focus Blast being generally better against the rest of the metagame)


PS: Yes I am being pessimistic today.
 
is everyone just forgetting magnet pull or something which is like, the only reason to even use magneton ever?
 
SJCrew said:
is everyone just forgetting magnet pull or something which is like, the only reason to even use magneton ever?
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It's not even THAT good. Sure it traps Registeel but you lose if he runs Seismic toss (which should imo)

You trap Steelix, but that's one pokemon
Dugtrio really is the better trapper. Magneton is nice though.
 
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