Salamence Theorymonning

[DevilinDenial]

This is an interesting enough day to come back...

I think the Latias ban was a long time coming. I'm going to miss it's amazing versatility on several of my teams, but it is honestly too good-still. I was just about to use a Choice Specs version, since the only thing it isn't promised to beat is Blissey.

Salamence, on the other hand, does not seem Uber to me. I cannot say anything too strongly, since, after all, this is theorymon and only the ladder can determine what is truly too good- and whether the people I've played and the teams I used are good enough protection from the "Uber" Salamence.

Who said Scizor was a Mence counter? I've been using FatMence and it's the exact opposite, and that's one of the more tame sets. SpecsMence, like SpecsLati, rips it, and an LO Outrage does a lot(37% min) on even bulky variations of Scizor without a DD. Sending in a Scizor on a Mence is throwing oil into a flame.

 

[VulcanFenrir]

I'm glad about Latias being switched out of OU to Ubers.

But about the topic at hand. Salamence is way too cheap. I've only had one counter for him who doubled as my Latias counter. Who is this you may ask? It's Scarftar. The only problem is after one DD Salamence would wreck my TTar and then proceed to sweep my team.

As stated above there is no true hard counter to Salamence which isn't the problem, the problem is the lack of counters it has period. I can't stand it when someone switches in Mence and forces a switch which ends with a DD and a sweep. There's almost no way to prevent it's sweep as Fire Blast kills all Steel and Ice types that try to switch in on it, and Outrage finishes off the rest. Honestly I hope this thing gets put into Ubers.

 

[Zippo]

@shlomer
actually Mence has higher speed than a rayquaza, beats Dialga and gets the speed tie with Palkia, Kyogre without Scarf is beaten as well, groudon is beaten in speed by mence too and Giratina loses the matchup too
i dont see where is the mediocre speed

 

[Yehom]

I don't really get the hate for Latias. In my opinion, it wasn't broken at all. It has it's checks(Blissey, ScarfTar), so I'm not really getting it. Too bad half of my teams are useless now.

About Salamence: sure it's unprectable and some great viable sets, but let's be honest. Stealth Rock, LO recoil and Standstorm/Hail makes Salamence anything but durable. It is pretty much countered by Swampert or Rotom. Starmie outspeeds and has Ice Beam, Jolteon outspeeds and can kill it with HP Ice or if it's weakend Thunderbolt. Scizor is a check, if it can get a free switch. Surprisingly nobody has mentioned Weavile yet. The biggest check on Salamence. Although not a lot of people use it, Weavile can easily kill Salamence with Ice Shard or Ice Punch

 

[SJCrew]

Legendary pokemon are never getting on my team, they're too cheap. But after using Salamence for a while I understand it has massive power as well. It's only cripple is twave, and if it comes in on an infernape lead it can DD on the scare and sweep the whole damn world. I'm not sure of how well it would fare in Ubers however, because of it's average speed (in Ubers) and mediocre defenses. It can be revenged killed fairly easily with a scarfed dragon or ice move, especially with SR on the field. Even in OU a max speed Gengar with HP Ice will tear it up (before a DD ofc). Specially Bulky's Dragon Claw will not OHKO a Gengar (if somehow it doesnt outspeed it!), and being locked into outrage leaves it open to a revenge kill from Scizor.

I may be just defending this out of selfish purposes alone, but I don't think putting it in Ubers will not do much good. Heatran, Celebi, and Jirachi should be looked at before this Salamence, and having all three on your team should be illegal.

ok, this is not the kind of mindset we need in this thread. I'm sure a hundred people have at least explained to you why the title "legendary" doesn't make a Pokemon auto-broken, especially since there are some whose stats/movepool are far too poor to make them worth using even in OU or UU (Regice, Articuno, Entei).

Salamence is the biggest threat in OU because of its bulk, Intimidate, immense power on both the physical and special spectrum, awesome Dragon STAB, perfect coverage with high BP moves, and Dragon Dance giving it little no consistent checks or counters.

Heatran is blocked by Water types and is 4x weak to EQ, Celebi has plenty of weaknesses to exploit with weak STABs and no offensive versatility, and Jirachi can be countered by the likes of Heatran, Swampert, Magnezone, Metagross, and Brozong well enough, depending on the set it's running. Celebi, Heatran, and Jirachi have neither the same power nor versatility to get past their checks and sweep teams as marvelously as Mence does, so they're not even on the chopping block.

It has it's checks(Blissey, ScarfTar)

Right, but it's still perfectly capable of beating them and doesn't really have to go out of its way or lose effectiveness against other Pokemon to do it. Fighting Latias was always one big struggle because between Specs and CM, it always manages to ruin just about every attempt you make to get rid of it, while still having enough fight left in it to beat your team. If you got rid of it with Scarftar, Blissey, and Scizor most of the time, then good for you. But if you think about the prospect of having those guys on every one of your teams, and how Blissey, Scarftar and Scizor can be predicted pretty well between Surf or Trick, and subsequently taken out, you'd see why higher levels of ladder play (or if you're already there, other players) would have such immense trouble with it.

 

[Ericcc]

Putting in my two cents' worth;
Latias if fine in OU. It has plenty of counters, and is completely destroyed by TTar.

I could see why some people have problems with Salamence, but I have none whatsoever because I've built my team to counter many Mences. DD Mence - of course once it gets a Dragon Dance up, you're close to being sweeped, but with all those Banded Bullet Punches and Scarfed Draco Meteors flying loose (that are probably on your team anyway), how could you not possibly have a counter to it? I understand that some of the amateur players complain about Salamence a lot, but that's because they don't have that much practice. Salamence does have counters (I'll not get into that), and it's not over-centralizing the metagame, in any way. It's a big threat, yes. But absolutely not a threat that can't be handled.

And Latias being put into Ubers is absurd.

 

[i try]

weavile is a sally check and im happy about latias. im going to miss sally. and when i play ubers i havent seen much chomp use ever considered bring him down?

 

[Despotar]

So long Latias! But I don't think mence should be banned.. Has anyoen noticed how it's going? First Chomp, Then Latias, Mence, OH GOD DRAGONITE LOOK OUT! No dragon types shall survive! I look forward to laddering like this!

 

[BuddyBlueBomber]

You can't be a check against something if you're OHKO'd on the switch in.

Edit: I think it's come to the point where we can just safely ban any Dragon type that has a BST of 600 or more not named Dragonite.

 

[PK Gaming]

You can't be a check against something if you're OHKO'd on the switch in.

Edit: I think it's come to the point where we can just safely ban any Dragon type that has a BST of 600 or more.

Dragonite says hi. But I can see it being a lot more manageable than Mence. People fail to realize that Intimidate means that Mence often has more physical bulk than Dragonite >_>.

 

[firecape]

weavile is a sally check and im happy about latias. im going to miss sally. and when i play ubers i havent seen much chomp use ever considered bring him down?

This is a very common misconception, OU is based on usage, but ubers is a ban list, it wont move down from ubers if it isn't used, thats not how it works.

 

[Griffard]

I really hope Mence is banned. I typically had to sac a pokemon to bring in Mamoswine to threaten a shard-kill, which is basically a waste of two spots on a team. I support the move to ubers for Salamence. I think it's much more of a problem than Latias was.

 

[SJCrew]

and it's not over-centralizing the metagame, in any way.

What the hell kind of metagame have you been playing? The reason Steel types are mandatory on almost every single team is because of Salamence and Salamence alone, or have you not been noticing the Draco Meteor/Outrage spam crumbling your walls and killing your sweepers? I've been playing this game for a while, and I sure as hell notice all the times I've tried to check it with a scarfer/wall, thinking it's DD, only to take a Draco Meteor to the face. And remember Cressy, the universal wall that used to stop it? Scizor and TTar have booted the damn thing out of OU, leaving practically nothing to stop it without taking down one or two Pokemon every match.

The only way to win vs. Mence is to predict and predict well, because a 50/50 chance of it hitting you off the bat with a really strong physical attack or really strong special attack or DDing doesn't really leave open room for "counters".

 

[firecape]

I definately think that mence should be banned, it would definately make the current metagame way more enjoyable. A lot of people have make sure a moveslot of something in there team has a move to beat mence, which i think isn't right.

I mean at this point in time its pretty much part of the team making checklist to have a mence check, which sometimes makes people reconstruct multiple members.

 

[VKCA]

What the hell kind of metagame have you been playing? The reason Steel types are mandatory on almost every single team is because of Salamence and Salamence alone, or have you not been noticing the Draco Meteor/Outrage spam crumbling your walls and killing your sweepers? I've been playing this game for a while, and I sure as hell notice all the times I've tried to check it with a scarfer/wall, thinking it's DD, only to take a Draco Meteor to the face. And remember Cressy, the universal wall that used to stop it? Scizor and TTar have booted the damn thing out of OU, leaving practically nothing to stop it without taking down one or two Pokemon every match.

I wouldn't say that salamence alone is the reason for the "steelsteelsteeldragondragondragon" kind of team. Scizor certainly has something to do with it, and latias. But with latias gone, it remains to be seen if those kinds of teams will stick around. Might also get more steel heavy, considering how many people used latias as a check for the damn thing.
I'm definitely all for him getting banned.

 

[Ericcc]

What the hell kind of metagame have you been playing? The reason Steel types are mandatory on almost every single team is because of Salamence and Salamence alone, or have you not been noticing the Draco Meteor/Outrage spam crumbling your walls and killing your sweepers? I've been playing this game for a while, and I sure as hell notice all the times I've tried to check it with a scarfer/wall, thinking it's DD, only to take a Draco Meteor to the face. And remember Cressy, the universal wall that used to stop it? Scizor and TTar have booted the damn thing out of OU, leaving practically nothing to stop it without taking down one or two Pokemon every match.

The only way to win vs. Mence is to predict and predict well, because a 50/50 chance of it hitting you off the bat with a really strong physical attack or really strong special attack or DDing doesn't really leave open room for "counters".

I've been playing a metagame with very few DD Mences in it, truthfully, and I'll get to that later.
As for counters to Salamence, what ever happened to BP Scizor, Scarf Latias, or even an Ice Beam from Vaporeon/Swampert? -__- I agree that the use of steels in the current metagame IS for the common dragons like Latias, and Salamence, but that's why they're there. Choice Scarf Heatran with HP Ice deserves a mention. Also, the fact that Mence is weak to Stealth Rock, and takes damage from Sandstorm help wear it down pretty fast. This is one of the prime reasons that Mence has trouble setting up. Once it comes in, it automatically gets 25% of its HP chopped off. If you're having severe problems with Mence that it comes down the the fact that your team is swept after it gets a DD up, then you have some reconsidering and team building to do.

 

[SJCrew]

I've been playing a metagame with very few DD Mences in it

And I think your judgment is a little eschewed in this matter because of it. If you were to play a little more or get a rating of around 1400, where other average to above average players are, you'll see Salamence on every other team, with there being a 50/50 chance of it being DD/Mixmence. Even server statistics will attest to that fact.

Bulky Waters and random scarf Pokemon with Ice moves are not really counters when you consider they're either facing a DD, Draco Meteor, or Fire Blast. After that, they either have to take another Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Fire Blast, or Outrage in order to live and beat it with their Ice move (this is not BS moveset theory btw, at least three of those moves are found on every single Salamence set, and it can use any combination of them to beat the Pokemon in or the Pokemon comingin). These are extremely risky stakes to be hinged on a coin flip, and plenty of players realize that by now, which is why this thread exists to begin with.

 

[Dragonknight!]

Alright, This is ridiculous. At this rate, the main OU dragon will be Gible soon, and everybody will still be screaming SUSPECT TEST SUSPECT TEST OMGOMGOMG. Sure, you pretty much have to sacrifice a pokemon in order to kill salamence, but after salamence goes (if it does indeed), people will just find another pokemon to overcentralize the metagame, and eventually all of the actually "overused" pokemon will be uber and everybody will play ubers as standard rather than OU, in which then there would be suspect tests within ubers for things that will be "superuber", and the cycle would just continue. the current "OU" would just be called "uber" and the current "uber" would be called "super ubers"

I think that building a team with salamence in mind is part of the reason why OU is so much fun. For the last 4-5 months, I have never used a salamence, and never have had trouble with them. This is because I've gotten used to either sacrificing a pokemon, or just outpredicting. And I know the opponent would most likely have a way of killing my salamence, and for some reason, I've just never been successful with it. Salamence is good, and it kills many things, but its just not enough to be moved to ubers. I think that it should stay in the ouOU section, and skulk as everybody packs things to kill it with.

 

[Ericcc]

Alright, This is ridiculous. At this rate, the main OU dragon will be Gible, and everybody will be screaming SUSPECT TEST SUSPECT TEST OMGOMGOMG. Sure, you pretty much have to sacrifice a pokemon in order to kill salamence, but after salamence goes (if it does indeed), people will just find another pokemon to overcentralize the metagame, and eventually all of the actually "overused" pokemon will be uber and everybody will play ubers as standard rather than OU, in which then there would be suspect tests within ubers for things that will be "superuber", and the cycle would just continue. the current "OU" would just be called "uber" and the current "uber" would be called "super ubers"

I think that building a team with salamence in mind is part of the reason why OU is so much fun. For the last 4-5 months, I have never used a salamence, and never have had trouble with them. This is because I've gotten used to either sacrificing a pokemon, or just outpredicting. And I know the opponent would most likely have a way of killing my salamence, and for some reason, I've just never been successful with it. Salamence is good, and it kills many things, but its just not enough to be moved to ubers. I think that it should stay in the ouOU section, and skulk as everybody packs things to kill it with.

Amen
OU is fun because of Mence.
And building a team which counters Mences gives you a sense of high rank. What would OU be without it anyway?
EDIT;
Agreeing with rvstar V

 

[rvrstar12]

I know everyone says things about Suspect Testing Salamence, and it may just be because i play more Wifi than Shoddy, but mence hasnt ever been that much of a problem. Sure he'll rpae you if you let him set up, but doesnt most set up sweepers do that?

 

[Boondocker]

While im not sad to see latias go, i do question whether or not its truely uber. I guess its one of those things that can go either way. I think i read in one of haunters posts that the metagame is too dragon/steal heavy, but banning latias is not the way to solve this. I agree with that 100% and i think some people voted uber because of the way teams look with her in ou. ITS NOT ALL HER FAULT. However i believe salamence to be more uber than latias, so if latias goes i think salamence should go to. Like others have said its pretty much a 50/50 coin toss as to witch set your facing, and a wrong guess can easily lose you the match.

I know everyone says things about Suspect Testing Salamence, and it may just be because i play more Wifi than Shoddy, but mence hasnt ever been that much of a problem. Sure he'll rpae you if you let him set up, but doesnt most set up sweepers do that?

Yes, but not allowing him to set up means building a team of 6 pokes that can 1hko him (and outspeed if you dont want to risk dying) and thats not always practical. And the only things that can revenge him suck, so dont even bring up that arguement (weavile, donphan, mamoswine). I guess scarf starmie is ok but a psychic locked into an ice move is never good. The other problem is you can switch your starmie into a draco meteor, and then bam no more starmie. Salemence basically FORCES you to sacfrifce something to find out witch set its running and thats just too much for ou.

 

[0n1l1nk.]

Now that there's only one real dragon in OU that can fire draco meteor / outrage (not talking about kingdra / dragonite / flygon), the metagame is going to change. It's a bit too early to judge salamence, because the metagame doesn't change that fast. (4 weeks till the result!)

In my opinion, salamence isn't uber. I'm happy about Latias, but I don't consider salamence as uber. I won't discuss about its pro/cons right now because imo we still need to wait seeing the metagame change before spouting those arguments and decide if Salamence is uber. (That and the fact that I never really have problems with it, but meh :p)

 

[Saital]

Well now that Latias is out, Mence should go with her. The two served as good checks for each other, but now that one is Uber, the metagame balance will now completely shift toward Salamence. Ever since Garchomp, people have been way overcautious about banning certain Pokes. But the problem is, by banning a Pokémon, you're not just removing a threat, you're removing a counter to other Pokémon. This is exactly what's happening with Latias. Now that she is gone, Mence will take over OU unless he's banned as well. This isn't decentralizing, it's recentralizing somewhere else.

I would rather have a metagame that has a wide variety of Pokémon including a handful of powerful Pokémon that can be countered by each other plus actual strategy, than one where anyone that stands out is banned so that all it takes to play well is one hand and an internet connection.

 

[Elevator Music]

Alright, This is ridiculous. At this rate, the main OU dragon will be Gible soon, and everybody will still be screaming SUSPECT TEST SUSPECT TEST OMGOMGOMG. Sure, you pretty much have to sacrifice a pokemon in order to kill salamence, but after salamence goes (if it does indeed), people will just find another pokemon to overcentralize the metagame, and eventually all of the actually "overused" pokemon will be uber and everybody will play ubers as standard rather than OU, in which then there would be suspect tests within ubers for things that will be "superuber", and the cycle would just continue. the current "OU" would just be called "uber" and the current "uber" would be called "super ubers"

This is pretty non sequitur and I find it really hard to agree with. Do you really think all the competitive players here (or at least the ones making these decisions) will fall down this imaginary slippery slope?

Also, you can't ban things from Ubers... I'm trying not to be insulting but that really isnt helping your argument at all...


(Your second paragraph is less wrong though)

 

[SJCrew]

Alright, This is ridiculous. At this rate, the main OU dragon will be Gible soon, and everybody will still be screaming SUSPECT TEST SUSPECT TEST OMGOMGOMG. Sure, you pretty much have to sacrifice a pokemon in order to kill salamence, but after salamence goes (if it does indeed), people will just find another pokemon to overcentralize the metagame, and eventually all of the actually "overused" pokemon will be uber and everybody will play ubers as standard rather than OU, in which then there would be suspect tests within ubers for things that will be "superuber", and the cycle would just continue. the current "OU" would just be called "uber" and the current "uber" would be called "super ubers"

Before you go on a tangent about how we're going to ban everything, look at what's going on in UU. We had to remove a long string of suspects just to reach a stable metagame where any viable strategy and coherent teambuilding has a chance of succeeding, and I think we've finally reached that point. From the way things look right now, there aren't any more plans to ban UU suspects.

We're undergoing the same process with the OU metagame, but approaching it in a different way. A lot of testing and debating has gone on before we've taken big steps like this, to the point where we've tested what were once decidedly Uber Pokemon like Garchomp, Manaphy, and Latias multiple times; they failed consistently and received a well-deserved axe.

If we wanted to be more lenient about certain Pokemon having severely limited checks/counters, getting a free kill every time they come out, and terrorizing teams to the point where otherwise impractical sets have received immense spotlight (look no further than Scarf Tyranitar), then we'd be seeing plenty more Uber drops and reverting to square one.

At this point, it's simply a matter of achieving the most balanced and desirable metagame possible. Salamence is causing some obvious imbalances, and we're discussing them here. If you'd pay a little more attention to the bureaucracy going on around here, you'd realize this is not an arbitrary ban spree enacted by the community, but rather a well-organized process that decides what's truly best for the competitive metagame we as players seek to achieve.

There will naturally be some Pokemon more versatile than others and functioning more effectively as a result. But nothing has the same amount of power and influnece that Mence does, where two equally effective sets are capable of destroying the entire metagame and require very little prediction, garner easy setups, and mispredicting one could cause you the match in virtually all cases.