VGC Speed Tiers

[Alaka]

So speed tiers are just as important in VGC as anywhere else, so I'm gonna take a shot, please help me. The intro paragraphs from the other speed tiers should work fine again for VGC. I'm going to accumulate all of the speeds before dividing them up into separate tiers. Remember that all the speeds listed are at level 50, which is why they seem so low.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Getting Started

To begin with, find the maximum Speed of the Pokemon you're building. You can find this information on our analysis pages for each Pokemon. After you've found your maximum Speed, use the following tables to see how much Speed the threats you wish to outspeed have, and EV your Pokemon accordingly. Keep in mind that when calculating your maximum Speed stat, you need to take into account your Pokemon's Speed IV.

For example, +Speed natured Crobat can hit a maximum Speed of 200. No Pokemon in Crobat's Speed tier has greater than 194 Speed (Weavile). You can therefore safely run 195 Speed, which only requires 220 EVs as opposed to 252, and still allows Crobat to outrun all necessary threats.

Speed Boosts

To calculate your necessary starting Speed when factoring in Agility, Rock Polish, Chlorophyll or Swift Swim, all you need to do is add one to the Speed of the Pokemon you wish to outspeed, divide it by two and round up the result. In practice, for example, should you decide that you want your Groudon to outspeed Modest +2 Ludicolo after using Rock Polish to avoid the faster Grass Knot, you just add one Ludicolo's Speed, giving you 255. Dividing this in half and rounding up the result (from 127.5 to 128) gives you your desired starting Speed.

VGC Specifics

Remember that in VGC all Pokemon are level 50 and so speeds are lower, and it takes more EVs to increase your Speed stat. Also, in VGC Speed altering mechanics such as Icy Wind and Trick Room, are more prevalent and so there are more things to worry about when deciding what speed to run.

+1 Base 95s and Greater

356 / Jumpluff / 110 / +Speed / +2 / 252
322 / Electivire, Yanmega / 95 / +Speed / +2 / 252
312 / Groudon / 90 / +Speed / +2 / 252
294 / Electivire, Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / +2 / 252
290 / Shiftry / 80 / +Speed / +2 / 252
284 / Groudon / 90 / Neutral / +2 / 252
274 / Azelf / 115 / +Speed / +1 / 252
274 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / +2 / 252
268 / Ludicolo / 70 / +Speed / +2 / 252
264 / Shiftry / 80 / Neutral / +2 / 252
250 / Palkia, Zapdos / 100 / +Speed / +1 / 252
246 / Groudon / 90 / Neutral / +2 / 100
244 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / +2 / 252
241 / Electivire, Yanmega / 95 / +Speed / +1 / 252
234 / Kyogre, Dialga, Giratina, Moltres, Ho-Oh / 90 / +Speed / +1 / 252
228 / Palkia, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / +1 / 252
226 / Rotom-A / 86 / +Speed / +1 / 252
220 / Electivire, Yanmega / 95 / Neutral / +1 / 252

+Speed Base 90s to Neutral Scarf Base 90s

213 / Kyogre, Dialga, Giratina, Ho-Oh, Moltres / 90 / Neutral / +1 / 252
211 / Heatran / 77 / +Speed / +1 / 252
208 / Smeargle / 75 / +Speed / +1 / 252
207 / Rotom-A / 86 / Neutral / +1 / 252
201 / Breloom, Metagross / 70 / +Speed / +1 / 252
200 / Crobat, Mewtwo / 130 / +Speed / +0 / 252
194 / Weavile / 125 / +Speed / +0 / 252
193 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / +1 / 252
184 / Abomasnow / 60 / +Speed / +1 / 252
183 / Azelf / 115 / +Speed / +0 / 252
183 / Breloom, Metagross / 70 / Neutral / +1 / 252
178 / Froslass, Gengar, Jumpluff, Latios, Lugia / 110 / +Speed / +0 / 252
176 / Infernape / 108 / +Speed / +0 / 252
169 / Garchomp / 102 / +Speed / +0 / 252
168 / Abomasnow / 60 / Neutral / +1 / 252
167 / Azelf / 115 / Neutral / +0 / 252
167 / Palkia, Zapdos / 100 / +Speed / +0 / 252
161 / Electivire, Rayquaza, Yanmega / 95 / +Speed / +0 / 252
156 / Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Moltres / 90 / +Speed / +0 / 252

Icy Winded +Speed Base 100s to Neutral 252 EV 100s

152 / Palkia, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / +0 / 252
151 / Rotom-A / 86 / +Speed / +0 / 252
150 / Toxicroak / 85 / +Speed / +0 / 252
147 / Electivire, Yanmega, Rayquaza / 95 / Neutral / +0 / 252
145 / Shiftry / 80 / +Speed / +0 / 252
142 / Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Moltres / 90 / Neutral / +0 / 252
141 / Heatran / 77 / +Speed / +0 / 252
139 / Smeargle / 75 / +Speed / +0 / 252
138 / Rotom-A / 86 / Neutral / +0 / 252
137 / Kingdra, Toxicroak / 85 / Neutral / +0 / 252
135 / Honchkrow / 71 / +Speed / +0 / 252
134 / Ludicolo, Metagross / 70 / +Speed / +0 / 252
133 / Crobat, Mewtwo / 130 / +Speed / -1 / 252
132 / Shiftry / 80 / Neutral / +0 / 252
130 / Lugia / 110 / Neutral / +0 / 0
129 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / +0 / 252
129 / Weavile / 125 / +Speed / -1 / 252
123 / Abomasnow / 60 / +Speed / +0 / 252
123 / Honchkrow / 71 / Neutral / +0 / 252
123 / Groudon / 90 / Neutral / +0 / 100
122 / Breloom, Ludicolo, Metagross / 70 / Neutral / +0 / 252
120 / Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / +0 / 0
118 / Froslass, Gengar, Latios, Jumpluff, Lugia / 110 / +Speed / -1 / 252
117 / Infernape / 108 / +Speed / -1 / 252
112 / Garchomp / 102 / +Speed / -1 / 252
112 / Abomasnow / 60 / Neutral / +0 / 252
111 / Palkia, Zapdos / 100 / +Speed / -1 / 252

Icy Winded 252 EV Neutral Base 77s to 0 EV Base 90s

110 / Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh / 90 / Neutral / +0 / 0
107 / Electivire, Rayquaza / 95 / +Speed / -1 / 252
106 / Rotom-A / 86 / Neutral / +0 / 0
105 / Cresselia / 85 / Neutral / +0 / 0
104 / Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Moltres / 90 / +Speed / -1 / 252
101 / Palkia, Zapdos / 100 / Neutral / -1 / 252
100 / Toxicroak / 85 / +Speed / -1 / 252
100 / Togekiss / 80 / Neutral / +0 / 0
98 / Electivire, Rayquaza / 95 / Neutral / -1 / 252
94 / Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, Giratina, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Moltres / 90 / Neutral / -1 / 252
94 / Heatran / 77 / +Speed / -1 / 252
92 / Shedinja / 40 / Neutral / +0 / 252
92 / Smeargle / 75 / +Speed / -1 / 252
91 / Toxicroak, Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / -1 / 252
90 / Ludicolo, Hitmontop, Metagross, Poliwrath / 70 / Neutral / +0 / 0
88 / Shiftry / 80 / Neutral / -1 / 252
86 / Lugia / 110 / Neutral / -1 / 0
86 / Heatran / 77 / Neutral / -1 / 252

Minimum Speed Base 90s and Less

85 / Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, Giratina, Ho-Oh / 90 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
81 / Breloom, Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / -1 / 252
81 / Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / +0 / 0
80 / Clefable, Abomasnow / 60 / Neutral / +0 / 0
75 / Blissey, Machamp / 55 / Neutral / +0 / 0
73 / Kyogre, Groudon, Dialga, Giratina, Ho-Oh / 90 / Neutral / -1 / 0
73 / Heatran / 77 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
72 / Smeargle / 75 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
67 / Metagross, Poliwrath / 70 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
59 / Tyranitar / 61 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
58 / Abomasnow / 60 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
54 / Machamp / 55 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
54 / Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / -1 / 0
45 / Dusknoir / 45 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
42 / Kyogre, Groudon / 90 / -Speed; 0 IV / -2 / 0
40 / Tyranitar / 61 / Neutral / -2 / 0
36 / Heatran / 77 / -Speed; 0 IV / -2 /0
34 / Bronzong / 33 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
31 / Parasect, Snorlax, Sunflora / 30 / -Speed; 0 IV / +0 / 0
29 / Tyranitar / 61 / -Speed; 0 IV / -2 / 0
27 / Machamp / 55 / -Speed; 0 IV / -2 / 0
26 / Abomasnow / 60 / -Speed; 0 IV / -2 / 0
5 / Smeargle / 75 / -Speed; 0 IV; Level 1 / +0 / 0

 

[Diesel]

This is way way way too large. It needs to be narrowed down, similar to the UU version of this thread, so that it actually reflects the metagame. Also, it's kinda tough to have a good list when you're covering two metagames. 09 and 10 should be split.

Removals:

All Electivire, Latias, Sunflora, Flygon, Heracross, Slowbro, Dugtrio, Tropius, Scizor, Poliwrath, Sableye, Lickylicky

All -2 Speed
All -1 Speed (except Iron Ball users)
All Base 90s or above with a +Speed and a Scarf
Scarf Azelf, and similar pokemon that shouldn't have scarves.
Neutral / No boost Jolteon, Mewtwo, Latios, Gengar, Infernape, Typhlosion
Level 1 Kangaskhan

 

[eric the espeon]

When we talked about this before they were written Alaka said he thought Icy Wind was sufficiently common to justify -1 Pokemon being included. As for the size, when all of the same speed+same base speed spreads are moved to single lines (many have 5-10 lines which will become one), it will cut down the size significantly, and splitting it up into actual tiers should make it less wall of texty. But, of course, if there are uncommon or non-viable Pokemon they should not be included.

 

[Diesel]

When we talked about this before they were written Alaka said he thought Icy Wind was sufficiently common to justify -1 Pokemon being included.

I disagree with this. It is somewhat common, but you're basically doubling the size of the speed tiers to include it, since it only "doesn't matter" for extremely slow pokemon like Snorlax (and it's still listed for those Pokemon for some reason). This isn't necessary at all considering that people are able to calculate it on their own with ease if they feel it is important, since it only matters for a few pokemon.

As for the size, when all of the same speed+same base speed spreads are moved to single lines (many have 5-10 lines which will become one), it will cut down the size significantly, and splitting it up into actual tiers should make it less wall of texty. But, of course, if there are uncommon or non-viable Pokemon they should not be included.

This is true, although I still think that using a +Speed nature with a Scarf is complete overkill, since you beat Mewtwo easily with a neutral nature. Same goes for +Speed Swift Swim/Chlorophyll pokemon, which need all the power they can get. But yea, I see your point about it looking much bigger than it will turn out to be.

Also wondering if there should be a separate Speed Tiers for VGC '09 and '10? It might be deceptive if people think that pokemon like Garchomp and Gyarados are actually used in the VGC10 metagame.

EDIT:

Additional Removals:
205 / Qwilfish / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 252
205 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 252
201 / Ludicolo / 70 / +Speed / +1 / 252
198 / Kabutops / 80 / Neutral / +1 / 252
198 / Shiftry / 80 / Neutral / +1 / 252
183 / Ludicolo / 70 / Neutral / +1 / 252
175 / Exeggutor / 55 / +Speed / +1 / 252
172 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 76
160 / Exeggutor / 55 / Neutral / +1 / 252
160 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / +1 / 16
160 / Infernape / 108 / Neutral / +0 / 252
162 / Gengar / 110 / Neutral / +0 / 252
162 / Froslass / 110 / Neutral / +0 / 252
162 / Latias / 110 / Neutral / +0 / 252
162 / Latios / 110 / Neutral / +0 / 252
46 / Tangrowth / 50 / Neutral / -1 / 0

Could you explain these:
107 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / +0 / 16
115 / Kingdra / 85 / Neutral / +0 / 76
170 / Lugia / 110 / +Speed / +0 / 196

 

[Alaka]

The +1 Swift Swim/Chlorophyll Pokemon fall in the Icy Wind catagory.

I'm going to get them all together then decide what to remove and if there is anything else to add, I challenge some of those removals however. We can chat about them if you'd like.

 

[Alaka]

Ok, finished adding all the Pokemon, merged all the same base speed pokemon, and separated them into tiers, now I'm open to changes to the tier breakdown, or sets to remove or add.

 

[Diesel]

The +1 Swift Swim/Chlorophyll Pokemon fall in the Icy Wind catagory.

I'm going to get them all together then decide what to remove and if there is anything else to add, I challenge some of those removals however. We can chat about them if you'd like.

Yea I know, that's why I thought they should be removed. :P

I don't see why people can't just calculate Icy Wind themselves. If they fear Icy Wind, they can just calculate the -1 speed stats of the 6 members of their team (it will describe how to do this at the top of the article). Pretty simple. If they want to use Icy Wind, then they can just select a Pokemon that falls just beneath their own pokemon's speed stat then say "okay, everything from here up still outspeeds me, everything else is slower". To me this is comparable to listing all the speed stats of paralyzed pokemon in singles.

And yea lemme know what you think should stay or feel free ask why I think something should go. You know the meta better than I do.

Also still curious about some of the questions I posed earlier. Sorry to be such a pest, you ARE in peer edits though. :P Thanks for your time. :)

EDIT: There's a mistake on Weavile - it says its Base Speed is 194 instead of its EVs.

 

[eric the espeon]

Also wondering if there should be a separate Speed Tiers for VGC '09 and '10? It might be deceptive if people think that pokemon like Garchomp and Gyarados are actually used in the VGC10 metagame.

I was thinking this would probably just be for the '10 metagame, and maybe if a good place for more VGC info is made on site older versions could be made.

As for Icy Wind, I can see the points both sides. Would a comprimise like only show the few most common Pokemon's -1 Speed make sense? Those would probably be relatively common, but Pokemon which are only just about common enough to make it onto the list will be even rarer as -1 'mons.

 

[Diesel]

I was thinking this would probably just be for the '10 metagame, and maybe if a good place for more VGC info is made on site older versions could be made.

I guess I was kinda confused as to whether or not Alaka was listing both metas in this list. From the pokemon listed (Electivire, Gyarados, Mamoswine, Flygon) it would appear he is. Not sure though.

As for Icy Wind, I can see the points both sides. Would a comprimise like only show the few most common Pokemon's -1 Speed make sense? Those would probably be relatively common, but Pokemon which are only just about common enough to make it onto the list will be even rarer as -1 'mons.

Yea I think this would make sense. This list should only comprise the absolute most popular and relevant (in terms of speed stats) Pokemon and movesets, though. That should be too hard to narrow down considering how centralized the meta is.

 

[Alaka]

I was intending this only for 2010 play, though not the most common, those Pokemon are still around in that metagame. I'll make another sweep through and eliminate some stuff, and the less important Icy Wind speeds. Also, I don't see much reason for removing Pokemon like Flygon, who aren't prevalent but seen, when they add no new lines to the list, but are simply part of others.

 

[eric the espeon]

Having too many lines is not the only thing to avoid, adding too many rare Pokemon makes it harder to read and judge as a whole quickly. Pokemon which are not common or viable should not be included even if they add no new lines (not commenting on specific examples).

 

[Alaka]

Alright, I went ahead and dropped a lot of stuff, including a couple based on your last post. Does it look more like an approachable length now?

 

[Diesel]

It's getting there.

I think this post is something that needs to be cited, and I'm surprised ete hasn't done so considering he made the post :P

@Diesel: I think that the current OU Speed tiers can be used as a reasonable guideline, they include all of the threats you are likely to encounter reasonably often of may have to prepare for, but don't include the extremely rare or outclassed Pokemon. It's not a watertight basis for choosing whether every single Pokemon should be in or not, but some degree of subjectivity is to be expected unless we want to base them purely of usage stats and update them every month.

Basically, threats that it would be useful for UU players to be able to see should be listed. And the list should be as short as possible in order to be easy to navigate and read. So, remove anything not relevant to the metagame, add anything that is. Use common sense to decide how relevant is relevant.

Also, when comparing this article to the OU or UU Speed Tiers, you'll see it's about twice as long, yet the other two metagames are probably 5+ times as diverse. Anyway, I'll shut up for now.

 

[Alaka]

Well, they may be overall more deverse, but VGC has a ridiculous amount of speed altering stuff that lengthens it. Between constant Rain and Sun, Trick Room, and Icy Wind, the list is stretched out a lot.

 

[eric the espeon]

Just checking the numbers, OU has 128 lines and currently VGC has 148. OU has 234 Pokemon (counting each time a Pokemon comes up), VGC has 302. OU has 81 different species, VGC currently has 82. Given that VGC is apparently significantly more centralised, it probably makes sense to have fewer species than OU. But, having a fair number more lines is understandable with all the speed changing effects running around.

If a few people check and agree that everything up there is either somewhat common or actually viable, then it could be uploaded in the current state (tier names/positions are slightly odd), but I'd like to cut it down a bit if possible.

 

[Diesel]

Well, they may be overall more deverse, but VGC has a ridiculous amount of speed altering stuff that lengthens it. Between constant Rain and Sun, Trick Room, and Icy Wind, the list is stretched out a lot.

This is absolutely true, but my point was more about what I bolded in ete's statement below than sheer speed numbers.

Just checking the numbers, OU has 128 lines and currently VGC has 148. OU has 234 Pokemon (counting each time a Pokemon comes up), VGC has 302. OU has 81 different species, VGC currently has 82. Given that VGC is apparently significantly more centralised, it probably makes sense to have fewer species than OU. But, having a fair number more lines is understandable with all the speed changing effects running around.

If a few people check and agree that everything up there is either somewhat common or actually viable, then it could be uploaded in the current state (tier names/positions are slightly odd), but I'd like to cut it down a bit if possible.

This is what I'm getting at. There shouldn't even be close to as many species. Think about it; each team of four has TWO ubers, from which there are only NINE pokemon to choose. That alone produces massive centralization, and doesn't even take into account how centralized around the ubers the rest of the meta is. You're practically guaranteed to see a Latios, Metagross, Ludicolo, Abomasnow, Tyranitar, or Togekiss on any given team.

So, my point is that the speed tiers should reflect the metagame and how centralized it is, not present all these pokemon that you almost certainly won't encounter.

Or, think about it this way. Someone trying to build a team who is new to the metagame looks at these speed tiers and says "Holy shit, Alaka, I have to worry about all these pokemon?!?!" Would you say "yep!" or "well, not really, just the ubers and pokemon x, y, and z, mostly"?

 

[eric the espeon]

Alaka tells me he's had a few VGC people look over it, so I'll be HTMLising this and getting it on site. If anyone wants spreads/pokemon added or removed, feel free to suggest them in this topic.