Do we really need the Uber tier (Question for Standard)??

[shrang]

Since 5th gen is rapidly approaching, I feel this question (the one in the title) needs to be addressed. Currently, we have Ubers, OU, BL, UU, NU, and NFEs. However, what do those tiers actually mean?? Are they more than just a label given to different Pokemon?? My point is, do we really need to ban all the Ubers??

While most of you see this question and go "Oh my God you're an idiot", I don't see why we need to. OU is the current "Standard metagame", and Ubers are simply Pokemon who are too good for that "Standard metagame". However, do we really need to make OU Standard?? Why don't we make Ubers the Standard metagame?? Then, there would be no Pokemon that are too good for Standard and less shifting around (Latias getting banned and shifting the metagame was a massive example). Basically, all we would be doing is the change the labels of the tiers. So, if we follow this idea, "Ubers" would become the new "OU", and "OU" becomes "UU", and you so on and so forth. If we want to play with Pokemon like Gyarados and Zapdos and stuff like that, we would play UU, if we want to play with Moltres and Milotic, we play NU, and whatever NU Pokemon can be categorised into even more subtiers (NNU, NNNU, etc, etc).

Many of you would probably go "But Ubers is a very broken metagame, it's too centralised around stuff like Kyogre, and there wouldn't be much variety since most Pokemon would not be viable". However, if you look at our current metagame, are there any significant differences?? Not really. The OU metagame is currently revolved around Salamence and steels, and overcentralisation is easily found in OU as well. The classic example would be Scizor. How many special attacking Pokemon run HP Fire just to deal with Scizor?? How many teams need to run Steels to deal with Mence?? How many teams have you seen that is successful with a Pokemon like Jynx, who is actually usable in UU and utter crap in OU?? Now we can apply the same style of questions for Ubers. How many teams run Latias/Palkia/Water Absorber to deal with Kyogre?? How many teams run a Steel just to resist the multitude of Dragons running around there?? How many team have you seen that is successful with a Pokemon like Togekiss?? Now, I know a lot of people don't like playing with Ubers because they're cheap, but what is to say Tyranitar/Scizor/<Insert OU Pokemon here> isn't cheap?? Next, people say Ubers isn't fun, but why is it that the current OU metagame is more fun?? Can anyone explain this without saying Ubers are broken, because you can apply the same arguments to OU.

If we look around the 3.5% mark for which (around about) is where OU/UU cutoff is, we see for Feb/Mar (I'm ignoring April because of the Magikarp stunt skewing the Ubers stats), the OU ladder had about 46 Pokemon above the cutoff, and Ubers had about 30-31. That isn't TOO much of a difference, especially if we go down the usage stats and look a few more Pokemon that could be viable for Ubers as well. We have (According to March): Skarmory (33), Bronzong (34), Shedinja (35), Kabutops (36), Heracross (37), Registeel (38), Deoxys-D (39), Salamence (43), Abomasnow (44), Weavile (45), Gengar (49), Deoxys (50), Magnezone (53), Celebi (56), Cresselia (57), Infernape (59), and so on. These, added on with the Top 30 or so of Ubers, can easily form a diverse enough metagame.

Now, we will have people calling out: Outclassed Pokemon like Salamence can easily come down and curbstomp the new "UU" because Rayquaza pretty much kicked him out of Ubers. Well, that's why we would actually use our banlists and ban him from UU, so Salamence would be BL, if you will. We would have the same Suspect tests and everything, although we wouldn't have to worry about "OU" so much because we're not banning things from there any more.

Am I the only one who has this sentiment?? I'm very free to arguments for and against this, so just shout out if we want to say something.

 

[Efemera]

So your suggestion is just to rename all the tiers in a way that doesn't make any sense? Well, that changes everything.

"Hey guys, if we rename OU to UU, then we don't have to worry about whether OU is balanced, diverse, and enjoyable anymore! It won't be!"

 

[jErry07]

Different tiers are not based on the same thing.

Ubers are based on power, they were put into "Uber" because they're overpowering pokemons in OU. OU, the overused tier, is based on their usage.

OU tier is the standard metagame because they're OVERUSED. They're OVERUSED because many use them. Many use them because they're popular/strong. Now why would you make Uber a standard metagame it only have 20-25 pokemons and while you can't simply put pokemons in the lower tier to battle with the 'ubers'?

 

[Jackos]

If I understand what you're saying merely implies a name change on all tiers right? Because the Latias ban would have happened with OU being called "OU" or being called "UU", I don't see the point on doing that at all, everything stays the same IMO.

On the other hand if you're questioning why is OU the standard its merely based on what the community and the games have established as standard (certain legends being forbidden at battle tower and such) though the Ubers ban tier was born because of RBY Mewtwo (the most broken thing that ever saw the light of day if we consider the advantages he had on its time) and Mew (could do practically everything) so its natural that the standard metagame was created from the more "diverse but usable" pool of pokémon rather than being based around the two "powerful ones" which would result on everyone running at least Mewtwo.

Looking one gen later, on GSC, it was a very stally metagame with little offensive options that could bypass the defensive ones, and again with a handful of ubers (only 5) so there was no reason to change this at all.

As you can see this is mostly due to the tradition of banning the "overpowered ones" that resulted due to the low ammount of ubers, now with the coming of new generations it has become a much wider list that makes ubers a playable metagame rather than a mere banlist.

All in all renaming Ubers to OU and OU to UU wouldn't change a thing.

 

[shrang]

Yet, if you make Ubers the standard metagame, you'd be sure those Ubers are "Overused" as well. The current Ubers list have 24 Pokemon because we've only banned 24 Pokemon, while in reality, if you actually play Ubers, there are definitely more viable Pokemon than just them. It can easily become a standard metagame with 30-40 Pokemon, and there are lower tier Pokemon that have certain niches that allow them to be used in that metagame. The same can be applied to OU now. Tentacruel is in itself, a UU Pokemon, but in response to the rampages of NP MixApe, it found itself to be Stall's weapons against the Ape. Now you can picture something like Quagsire or something. Pokemon like Quagsire has the niche to switch into any non-Specs Kyogre with near impunity, and Quagsire is a solid NU Pokemon. I've even seen Yanmega and Gyarados being used quite effectively in Ubers. It's unwise to put a lower tier Pokemon in Ubers, which is true, but the same is true for OU. I mean, you're not going to use something like Meganium in OU now would you??

EDIT: This is not merely a renaming, it is changing of what is Standard. Renaming Ubers to OU means Ubers is now the accepted metagame, not a banlist.

 

[Relictivity]

Actually, this wouldn't be too shabby of an idea, but it probably would have to start after this new generation comes in. If we start from scratch, things might become somewhat easier. And since we don't know how the new meta-game might come out, I would be curious as to how this one would.

 

[Efemera]

So it's a renaming, plus you're telling everyone to play Ubers instead of the current OU.

Ubers isn't just more centralized than OU. It's an environment full of 1-turn setup sweeps and isn't balanced at all. If you want to play in an environment like that, play Ubers. Most people prefer playing the current OU.

 

[Relictivity]

So it's a renaming, plus you're telling everyone to play Ubers instead of the current OU.

Ubers isn't just more centralized than OU. It's an environment full of 1-turn setup sweeps and isn't balanced at all. If you want to play in an environment like that, play Ubers. Most people prefer playing the current OU.

Nah, it's not a renaming, it will change the current OU, because some things currently in OU, will be bumped up to Ubers, hopefully creating a more balanced meta-game.

1-Turn Setup Sweeps, I agree, are bad, but you can do a similar thing in OU with a Trick-Block-Pass lead (not many people run it, but I'm developing something with it currently).

 

[shrang]

I don't know why, but I always find a metagame where anything can come out next turn and one-turn setup sweep you to be more exciting and puts you on guard a lot more than now (I mean, I don't really like the games where there are counters to absolutely everything, it just makes the games boring - "In comes sweeper X, in comes wall Y, nothing really happens, it gets slow and boring"). These days, stuff like DD Mence, even DD Gyara can do it if you're not careful.

 

[Aqueos]

NAMES ARE LABELS do you really think what something is called is that important? Making 50 tiers is stupid people will just play at the highest one of the category, (nu) nnnu nnnnu If you like ubers play ubers don't rant......

 

[shrang]

In the purest sense, what they are called is not important, but the implications of the name is very important. Again, this is not a pure renaming, it is a changing of what is accepted and standard. In Apartheid South Africa, the "Black" South Africans had significantly different rights to the "White" South Africans. Yes, in the purest sense, what is "Black" and what is "White" mean nothing, but when used in the context of different rights, it was extremely important. For this thread, I am basically proposing that the Ubers metagame become Standard, not a banlist, not just a renaming.

 

[Unholy]

How is that going to prevent people from eschewing the new "standard" and choosing to play the new "underused" metagame instead? If you have more people playing "underused" than "standard," than aren't the tier or metagame names inaccurate?

You seem to think (or are implying, at any rate) that most users currently don't play in the uber metagame because it wasn't designated the "standard" to begin with, not because the uber metagame is generally viewed as unbalanced, not diverse, or whatnot and therefore rarely played. Now, even though Smogon has utmost control over naming metagames, I highly doubt that Smogon would have the ability to influence player's perceptions enough to make ubers the new "standard," as far as usage goes.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I have kind of wondered how the tiers would shape up if you removed the ban lists (Uber, BL) entirely and just categorized everything by usage with no subjective voting process. Basically, just keep the OU/UU usage thresholds the same as it is now, but with every Pokemon allowed in OU.

It could be interesting, but I doubt it'd be any better than the current set up in the end.

 

[Luminary]

I assume you're not advocating the abolishment of the Uber tier. That ban-less option is already available to us because we have the opportunity to play that highest tier.

I assume that you are suggesting that there are enough Pokemon between the higher OUs and the lowest Ubers to make a playable tier. This is a completely logical suggestion. It is what we did during the UU suspect process. We relieved a completely bloated tier, taking it from ~50 Pokemon to the current 11. Of course, ubers has only 24 Pokemon in it, so there isn't quite the same need for a "revamp". Not to mention, we did this to a degree with the suspect process.

It is also worth mentioning that variety naturally bottlenecks around the OU-Uber line we have already established. Think about this. There are 33 Pokemon with base stat totals between 600 and 720, a range of 120. There are ~133 Pokemon with base stat totals between 480 and 600, the same difference of 120. Yeah, yeah, BST is worthless. And it is. But I do this to illustrate that there are literally fewer Pokemon available when you look for options with such high quality standards. Until this amount of Pokemon gets fleshed out, what I believe you are suggesting will not be necessary.

 

[khz]

Is uber that desparate for players that they want to make it the new "standard?" O.O

 

[Chileno4Live]

Imo I think this is a good idea. I'm totally with this guy actually. OU has become a boring metagame as it is now, and it makes me play a lot less than I played D/P metagame. But I'm fine either way.

 

[ginganinja]

@Khz
You are actually quite right in some respects. The Uber ladder is barren and their are retards who run 6 magikarp for a joke. However I don't think that uber players would sink so low to do something this drastic to get more players

 

[Erebyssial]

What on earth would be accomplished by making the by far least popular, most centralized metagame the new "standard"? Standard is named as such because it's the most balanced metagame with the most Pokemon possible allowed, hence why it's the most popular. When a new player wants to start competitive battling, they want to play what's considered standard - it would be very discouraging and misleading if that was such a centralized tier, and should not be what represents the whole game.

You're basically asking to ditch what has been widely accepted for 4 gens, and for a metagame that, according to April stats, takes up less than 3% of total battles exluding Unrated to become what we call Standard, when it would everything but that. If Ubers was played and enjoyed almost as much as OU, the idea would be bit more plausible, but even then would still make no sense to me at all.

 

[General_Norris]

Ubers will never be the most played metagame because, as a whole, people don't like brokeness and prefer a slower format. You can see a similar trend in Magic: The gathering, for example.

 

[SunnyDay]

I'm kinda having trouble understanding what you mean. Are you saying that Ubers should be played again in Meta-Game? There is way too many broken Pokes for them to even be "Un-Banned" or "Uber". Don't Get me wrong I like this Idea its not too bad as the OU has become quite boring.

 

[cantab]

It seems that there are a few distinct propositions here.

If you intend to make 'standard' have no Pokemon banned, that's not going to happen. The whole reason for banning Pokemon from standard is to create a metagame we deem better than that without the bans.

If, on the other hand, you intend to make 'standard' contain a large number of the current Ubers, but retaining the option of a small banlist, then that is far more viable. I don't think it could quite work in DPPt, but it may be viable in BW.

One arguement against having a lot of current Ubers in standard is to think of cartridge play. Ubers is legendary-heavy, and it's much harder to get legendaries than it is to get normal Pokemon. Thus, if standard play is full of 680BST legendaries, then the cartridge metagame is liable to become even more slowly changing than it is today. Given that it's likely to be entirely subjective whether the Shoddy metagame is 'better' or 'worse' with or without 680BSTs, I feel we ought to give consideration to cartridge play, and look to promote a healthy and dynamic metagame there also, not something where it's impossible to change your team without owning a zillion games or using Action Replay.

 

[shrang]

I'm just saying Ubers would become the new OU, therefore the new Standard. I remember when I was like 10 me and my friends would abuse the crap out Lugia and stuff like that, and no-one cared (At least in my friendship group). While Ubers does have an extremely steep learning curve at the start, it could well be the most familiar to new players who don't follow the kind of the rules we have here.

 

[Shadowheart]

This is certainly an interesting idea and it would serve as a way of revitalising the derelict Uber metagame. However i dont see how the merging of the 2 metagames (to some extent) would change the nature of the Ubers metagame for the better, or indeed change it much at all. I don't see how the usage statistics will be changed, it will still be centralised around the same pokemon that it is now.

I'm not saying that I'm worried that every team is gonna be packed with 6 "Ubers" because that isn't even the case now. As has already been stated, there are plenty of pokemon viable in Ubers who aren't even in UU (i.e. Quagsire) I just don't see what the change is going to acheive or change other than to increase the amount of players playing the current Uber tier and make certain other pokemon obsolete (i.e. Salamence as mentioned in OP.)

For me, one of the major goals of the tiering system is to create a number of metagames where as many different pokemon can be used viably. While this new system would create an opening for new pokemon in the "new UU" (the current rejects of OU: Zapdos, Heracross, Dragonite and the like) which I, of course, advocate fully, it would also serve as a death to many pokemon who are not completely viable in Ubers but too strong in the new UU.

 

[ginganinja]

@General Norris
What do mean "A slower Format", OU can be very fast paced depending on the teams being used.

And in regards to the whole "No-one plays Ubers because uders a Broken argument", stop and think for a moment.
For a pokemon to be considered broken it is generally regarded as being too overpowered for OU or the standard metagame. However this is no reason to not play ubers since (at face value) their is no pokemon broken in Ubers (except for Arceus) therefore your excuse that no-one plays ubers de to them being broken has no value whatsoever since they are only broken outside of ubers.

 

[Efemera]

@General Norris
What do mean "A slower Format", OU can be very fast paced depending on the teams being used.

And in regards to the whole "No-one plays Ubers because uders a Broken argument", stop and think for a moment.
For a pokemon to be considered broken it is generally regarded as being too overpowered for OU or the standard metagame. However this is no reason to not play ubers since (at face value) their is no pokemon broken in Ubers (except for Arceus) therefore your excuse that no-one plays ubers de to them being broken has no value whatsoever since they are only broken outside of ubers.

That isn't true. The entire uber tier is broken. When you play Ubers, you are playing "anything goes". Just because Wobbuffet is allowed in Ubers doesn't make it counter-able. That is why Ubers are banned and we play standard.