NP: UU - Bye Bye Bye

[Heysup]

Ok I owe you guys some elaboration.

I'll start with the two easy ones: Milotic and Moltres (since some people actually borderline agree).

Milotic:

The reason I want to nominate Milotic is that it is consistently the hardest Pokemon to take out, but that our current defensive characteristic makes it too hard to nominate. We have nominated and banned Pokemon such as Cresselia, who may have been broken under the defensive characteristic, but I still think it was mainly banned because of the SubCM set. Milotic doesn't have some crazy stat boosting move to sweep a team with, so Cresselia is not the best comparison despite their similarity as mainly defensive Pokemon.

I think we should look at Milotic compared to Crobat. Crobat was banned even though there wasn't really a definite characteristic for them (we just called it support and offensive). Crobat checked an absurd amount of Pokemon and could pull off a sweep late game. Milotic isn't that different. It exchanges its ability to sweep to check even more Pokemon across the board, where as Crobat only checked specific ones (even if it was a lot). Crobat was destroyed by Pokemon such as Regirock. The only offensive Pokemon that can safely switch into Milotic is Synthesis LO Venusaur, otherwise it's base 100 SpA hits too hard for others, or they risk getting hit by Toxic. So with Crobat in mind, I think Milotic should be the first Pokemon to be nominated purely under the defensive characteristic.

Why now? Well Raikou's gone and easy Spikes are gone. Those were the two things keeping Milotic at bay in my opinion.

Moltres:

There's not much I can say about Moltres that isn't common knowledge, but its combination of bulk, Speed, and power is simply too much. I think we should compare it to Shaymin. The similarities of Moltres's most powerful set and Shaymin's most powerful set are too hard to ignore, they both ran a 120 BP STAB move, Air Slash, a coverage move, and a recovery move accompanied by Life Orb. In fact, it's hard to argue that Shaymin was that much better than Moltres. Let's look at their relevant base stats:

HP / Def / SpA / SpD / Speed
Moltres: 90 / 90 / 125 / 85 / 90
Shaymin: 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100

While Shaymin has a mere 10 base stat points over the majority of Moltres's utility stats, Moltres packs a whopping 25 Base SpA points over Shaymin. This is amplified by the fact that STAB Fire moves are far better than STAB Grass moves, and Moltres's Air Slash hits even harder because it gets STAB (in addition to the 25 extra Base SpA). Shaymin is obviously tougher to take down and poses a major threat with Seed Flare's secondary effect, but it is hard to argue that Moltres isn't close behind.

The main thing holding Moltres back is Stealth Rock, but this round Rapid Spinning got much easier. There is no effective way to run Spikestack + Double Ghost, and in my opinion it's simply not worth it for just Stealth Rock. The fastest Spin Blockers are undeniably frail, and Spiritomb is still Spiritomb, it's going to lose to the same Pokemon as it always does, and it's hit by Spikes.

With Shaymin in mind, I think Moltres deserves another nomination under the offensive characteristic.

Why Now? Moltres's main check, Raikou, is no longer around to stop it from destroying offense, and stall is still semi-easy to Spike against.

Torterra:

Torterra deserves a mention at the very least because it functions a lot like Raikou for me (which sounds stupid, but let me explain). Raikou was too hard to stop because it set up Calm Minds on special attacks, and physical priority moves don't even 2HKO it. Torterra has exceptional bulk, moreso than Raikou, and it takes even less damage from priority. Torterra has many chances to set up Rock Polish, and after this there are far too few Pokemon who can beat it on offense. This was the issue with Raikou, you were forced to use stupid shit like Scarf Venusaur Earthquake to beat it. While Scarf HP Ice Rotom isn't as stupid as Scarf Venusaur, it is not a hard argument to make that HP Ice Rotom is dumb.

I mean, I don't think I'd actually vote Torterra BL, but I would kind of like to discuss why Torterra always seems to be the most dangerous sweeper in the metagame, as if it's anti-metagame.

I'll respond to some counter-arguments:

I'm fine with Torterra who isn't getting past Leafeon and Tangrowth... ever.

Listing two Pokemon that are easily passable through other means does not mean much (think: Raikou).

And for offensive Moltres checks, like it or not Manetric and Raichu force it out every single time. (so that's something) and I think Zam and Guts Swellow have the power to do so as well. CB Azumarill is a given.

Forcing Moltres out isn't really that big of a deal, but Raikou could switch in and KO it, or come in on the revenge kill and actually set up on it. None of these Pokemon can do that. Even if you predict right, Manectric is still 2HKOed by Moltres. Fire Blast OHKOes all of the Pokemon you listed, unlike Raikou. CB azumarill is the only exception, but if you've used it you really dislike using CB Aqua Jet as a crutch.

As for Milotic? You can always pull 1-2 combo with Venusaur and Dugtrio. Weaken it enough so it can switch out, and trap it on the next switch in. Speaking of Milotic sets, I don't bother running physically defensive. SD Ken is an awesome lure as it literally cries.
I'd run a physically bulky teammate like Leafeon or Torterra.

You listed one Pokemon that can switch into Milotic safely and force it out. I don't see how this proves anything against Milotic.

 

[Thund91]

I would've quoted this but on my iPad it's annoying.

Cape, each meta is different then the one that comes before it, either because of something being banned (Yanmega), or new drop downs (Zam, Perior). And sometimes new Pokemon that were overlooked become popular (Torterra) and it shakes the game up a bit. Looking at the teams from a couple months ago, a RP Torterra could 6-0 90% of them, but people adapt and nowadays sweeping with RP Torterra is significantly harder.

And Yanmega centralized UU far more than even Cresselia did. Offense was useless because Speed Boost wrecked it, and nothing liked switching in on Specs boosted attacks. Stall was dominant because it's only counters were on it (Chansey, Registeel, and SpD Milotic), unless you wanted to use something like Soundproof Electrode or Mr.Mime.

 

[PK Gaming]

had some massive success with modest manectric. This thing is honestly mental, it's not so different from raikou. The top three pokemon of ou, moltres, milotic and venusaur, are handled really well. I just run a standard LO set with a modest nature. Thunderbolt takes the first two, while overheat fries venusaur. Just fill in the other slots with hp ice, for altaria and torterra, and some other thing, he doesnt need anything else. I just gave him TWave to paralyze stuff when he forces a switch, and noone sees it coming. The beauty is his 105 base speed, meaning with a modest nature he outruns even timid moltres. TWave helps with thing faster than him like sceptile who switch in. Duggy is his only real enemy

Modest Manectric (while strong) is a bad idea. You get outspeed by + based base 95's and base 100's. I mean how lame is that? Gotta say that the specs set is pretty fucking awesome and people have got to try it out. (honest)

Manetric isn't even comparable to Raikou. Sure he's slower and weaker by a tad but he's got nowhere near the bulk and no boosting moves. That's what (imo) holds Manetric back from straight up sweeping and makes him rely on Charge beam.

 

[M BLADE]

Pokemon that can safely switch into Milotic is Synthesis LO Venusaur

I disagree with this one. LO Milotic does KO Venusaur switching into Hydro Pump + Ice Beam.
If you meant the defensive ones... ok, forget this.

Other than that: banning Milotic would severely improve AND hampers the metagame IMO.

Milotic ckecks a lot of pokes, it's true. So does Registeel.
Do you think Registeel is worth suspect? (it's only a question, don't misunderstand).

About Moltres: well, i don't care about Moltres lol. If it goes or if it stays, it's fine by me.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well I tried. Anywho

Listing two Pokemon that are easily passable through other means does not mean much (think: Raikou).

Fair enough.

Forcing Moltres out isn't really that big of a deal, but Raikou could switch in and KO it, or come in on the revenge kill and actually set up on it. None of these Pokemon can do that. Even if you predict right, Manectric is still 2HKOed by Moltres. Fire Blast OHKOes all of the Pokemon you listed, unlike Raikou. CB azumarill is the only exception, but if you've used it you really dislike using CB Aqua Jet as a crutch.

What are you talking about? Raikou can't even switch in because Fire Blast does a staggering (77.3% - 91.3% Timid) that outright cripples Raikou. It's suicide just to switch in on Fire blast, and force it when it's obviously going to switch.

And did you forget that Raichu learns Nasty plot? He can force out Moltres and set up on the revenge kill. (just like Raikou could)

Erm... I hope you mean that Manetric can only switch into Moltres' air slash twice right?

You listed one Pokemon that can switch into Milotic safely and force it out. I don't see how this proves anything against Milotic.

There are plenty of others. Ludicolo laughs at it, Jolly Torterra can switch into defensive surf and force it out with Wood Hammer. Lanturn scares it out, Toxicroak sets up on it, Poliwrath sets up on it etc.

Why now? Well Raikou's gone and easy Spikes are gone. Those were the two things keeping Milotic at bay in my opinion.

Moving back to Electric types. (god I love them) using them is a great way of dealing with Milotic. Now before you bust me, I concede that Raichu and Manetric aren't that great switch in's. (They take some bad damage from surf and they HATE toxic)

but Ampharos laughs at Milotic all day long. Defensively is was quite similar to Raikou, and it hits hard enough to force it. It's speed is a let down but what Milotic is going to stay in on Ampharos?

Why Now? Moltres's main check, Raikou, is no longer around to stop it from destroying offense, and stall is still semi-easy to Spike against.

Again, a point to the electric types Raichu and Manetric. They can do just that. Sure they can't switch in but that's what a check is right? In fact Raichu gains some nice momentum into forcing this pokemon out (unless they stay in which has happened to me lol)

I mean, I don't think I'd actually vote Torterra BL, but I would kind of like to discuss why Torterra always seems to be the most dangerous sweeper in the metagame, as if it's anti-metagame.

But isn't this applicable to Rock Polish Rhyperior? Sure it gets stopped by Milotic and other bulky waters but it gets by bulky grass types with Megahorn. Aggron does the same thing (gets stopped by bulky waters but beats down bulky grass types) but yeah Torterra is easily the best. Not being scared of the tier's best physical wall is surely something.

 

[GMLW]

Wat/

You can see the poke -Milotic- engraved there in my post, right?
Ludicolo is the best answer to Milotic, but hates Toxic.
Along with Venusaur, which it's also the best answer for Milotic, which takes some mean damage from LO Ice Beam.

My bad, it was a very confusing post. I thought you meant that Ludicolo checks Venusaur, and I was proving it wrong.

The only offensive Pokemon that can safely switch into Milotic is Synthesis LO Venusaur, otherwise it's base 100 SpA hits too hard for others, or they risk getting hit by Toxic.

It seems like you're saying Milotic can use Ice Beam, Surf, HP Grass/Electric, and Toxic all at once while the opponent switches. With some prediction, you can safely get in a counter/check on the non-threatening move and force Milotic out/beat it.


On comparing Milotic to Shaymin: I know I wasn't here for the Shaymin metagame, but by looking at past nominations, complaints, etc. about it, I can see that Moltres is nowhere near comparible to Shaymin. I know you mentioned this, but Seed Flare's second effect was devastating to anything that tried to wall it. Also, Moltres does not have a full recovery move like Shaymin's Natural Cure-Rest. Shaymin also has 10 base higher speed, and while that might not be much, any little bit of speed helps in UU (or any metagame really).

 

[dbcb]

Eh... from playing the only one that *seems* like you could be considered is Milotic. It just seems to wall EVERYTHING, but the defensive characteristic definition is so shitty? faulty? That I don't think you could really ban anything using it unless it is just stupid (aka Cresselia). The definition is really "walls a significant portion AND isn't considered set up bait" or shit like chansey (which walls 99% of special attackers) would be gone a long time ago.

From playing, Moltres just seems like a really good poke.. not broken. It's rock weakness and low speed hurt it in the broken argument. It was much more broken with last period and it wasn't banned...

And from playing, Torterra will own you if you forget about it when making a team IMO. If you really treat it like the top threat it is, it is once again a really good poke but not broken.


In theory, I could see all three being banned... but it seems in theory and with words you can make a lot of things fit the definition. Hell we got damp rock and dugtrio nominated using theory and in practice I dont' think either was even close...



And I think the 10 higher speed for shaymin and the non-stealth rock weakness + seed flare makes moltres and shaymin non comparable at all.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Regarding Milotic: I would be open to arguments suggesting that she's broken (definitely more so than fucking Dugtrio >_>) because no matter what kind of teams I build at least half of it is completely stopped by Milotic. But even then, I usually get past it, so maybe it's not that big of a deal at all...of course, I usually stopped Raikou from sweeping me too, so maybe I'm just amazing and the argument does bear more consideration.

Regarding Moltres: Moltres and Shaymin will never be a good comparison until Fire Blast starts dropping SDEF 2 stages 40% of the time and until Moltres takes 12% from Stealth Rock. If you want to compare Moltres to something, compare it to Yanmega. If you do, though, you'll see that it's much easier to wall than Yanmega because Moltres doesn't get to ignore the typing chart. I've slowly come to conclusion that Moltres just isn't broken.

Regarding Torterra: Unboosted Wood Hammer isn't even enough to ohko Milotic, and even LO Wood Hammer doesn't ohko Slowbro 100% of the time. And this is Pokemon that are actually weak to its STAB! Torterra has too many reliable stops in Weezing, Tangrowth, Leafeon, Sceptile, Venusaur, and other Torterra that I just can't see it being broken.

 

[Heysup]

For the record, I'm using Surf, Toxic, HP Grass/Ice Beam, Recover for Milotic. Yea I get a slash because Cresselia got an infinite amount of them.

I disagree with this one. LO Milotic does KO Venusaur switching into Hydro Pump + Ice Beam.
If you meant the defensive ones... ok, forget this.

Reread my post, I'm sure you can figure out whether or not by saying Milotic is broken under the "defensive" characteristic I meant defensive Milotic or LO Milotic. :P

What are you talking about? Raikou can't even switch in because Fire Blast does a staggering (77.3% - 91.3% Timid) that outright cripples Raikou. It's suicide just to switch in on Fire blast, and force it when it's obviously going to switch.

It's not suicide because it survives and you're going to be switches Raikou into an Air Slash anyway. Fire Blast is just the worst case scenario. Best case scenario: you set up on Moltres after taking an Air Slash or Hidden Power or coming in on Roost. Worst case scenario: Raikou takes a Fire Blast and still forces Moltres out. That's a pretty decent check if you ask me.

Regarding Milotic: I would be open to arguments suggesting that she's broken (definitely more so than fucking Dugtrio >_>) because no matter what kind of teams I build at least half of it is completely stopped by Milotic. But even then, I usually get past it, so maybe it's not that big of a deal at all...of course, I usually stopped Raikou from sweeping me too, so maybe I'm just amazing and the argument does bear more consideration.

The precedent for the defensive Characteristic hasn't really been set. "Walling and checking a stupid amount of Pokemon" sounds like a decent argument for nominating it in my opinion.

ps u suck

Regarding Moltres: Moltres and Shaymin will never be a good comparison until Fire Blast starts dropping SDEF 2 stages 40% of the time and until Moltres takes 12% from Stealth Rock. If you want to compare Moltres to something, compare it to Yanmega. If you do, though, you'll see that it's much easier to wall than Yanmega because Moltres doesn't get to ignore the typing chart. I've slowly come to conclusion that Moltres just isn't broken.

Fire Blast makes up for not having the SpD drop by being a much better attcking type. The metagame is filled with 4x grass resists, and Fire resists are either Milotic, or have trouble taking Fire Blast anyway.

Roost and Synthesis are what make me feel Moltres and Shaymin are closer than Moltres and Yanmega. Roost and bulk put it into a completely different catagory than Yanmega.

Regarding Torterra: Unboosted Wood Hammer isn't even enough to ohko Milotic, and even LO Wood Hammer doesn't ohko Slowbro 100% of the time. And this is Pokemon that are actually weak to its STAB! Torterra has too many reliable stops in Weezing, Tangrowth, Leafeon, Sceptile, Venusaur, and other Torterra that I just can't see it being broken.

Life Orb Wood Hammer destroys both Milotic (105.3% - 124.2%) and Slowbro (85.3% - 100.5% - practically guaranteed with SR). The trouble with Weezing, Tangrowth, and Leafeon is that you get the "oh well it has a couple checks that are easily passable" argument that applies to Raikou.

fuck yea discussion

 

[PK Gaming]

fYou're tenacious bastard Heysup (not an insult!!!)

It's not suicide because it survives and you're going to be switches Raikou into an Air Slash anyway. This is just the worst case scenario. Best case scenario: you set up on Moltres after taking an Air Slash or Hidden Power or coming in on Roost. Worst case scenario: Raikou takes a Fire Blast and still forces Moltres out. That's a pretty decent check if you ask me.

True, true. It's not like I can't switch in Raichu or Manectric against said moves either. I'll survive and force the bird out. Worse case Scenario... I lose a pokemon but this was also applicable to Raikou too. For starters you had a chance of being OHKO with SR and even if you DIDN'T die, your allowed one shot.

-
While I won't say Raichu sucks, as that is not my point, you seem to be forgetting that Moltres can still OHKO Raichu after a Nasty Plot while Raikou's Calm Minds actually help it take Fire Blast.

Only an idiot would keep his Moltres in on Raichu. Thunderbolt is a clean KO, and your literally only staying to stop it from setting up. That's suicide. Furhermore, Raichu can a lot more sets than just NP. Your staying in JUST to semi-fuck with the NP set. Which normally I would isn't a wholly terrible idea, but you fail to realize that Raichu isn't even close to standard.

Ludicolo: Who's doing more laughing, the user of Ludicolo or the user of Milotic that the opponent is using Ludicolo just for Milotic? Anyway, there's nothing really offensive about Ludicolo besides when it is being boosted by the Rain, and that's another story.

It's still a counter, like it or not. It forces it out if it lacks Toxic.

Jolly Torterra: Before or after it gets nailed by Ice Beam? Not a safe switch in the least.

It can always switch into anything OTHER than Ice beam... Yeah my bad... bad switch in.

Lanturn: Nothing offensive about this really. It also can't switch into Toxic.

Restalk/Heal bell varients can and they can beat Milotic down with (weak) Thunderbolts.

Poliwrath: Can't switch into Toxic.

True, but if it doesn't run Toxic it's a clean counter.

Does Raichu even OHKO Milotic with an LO Thunderbolt? Lol it does 65.6% - 77.9% with no SpD investment by Milotic. It can't switch in, take a Surf, and then take another Surf (does like 48% minimum).

Wow, to harsh. This is applicable to pretty much all Electric types save Specs Manetric. (84% - 99.2%)
(Who I admit can't even switch in. Still, that's a clean force out.)

and Ampharos (65.6% - 77.9% for Lefties set)
It can even take Surfs like a champ (30% - 35.7%)
Let's face it, Milotic has got insane Special walling capabilities.

Even the mighty Raikou couldn't flat out OHKO (77.9% - 91.6% against standard Bulky set)

And I still wouldn't keep Milotic in on Raichu if it comes in on the revenge. Your fighting a losing battle just to damage one pokemon? Not. Worth. It.

Hide

(Curse Nintendo for giving Raichu base 90 SpA)

I'm annoyed at all of these electric comparisons to Raikou. None of them have the ability to switch into Moltres and potentially end the match like Raikou. None of them are major threats to the metagame.

They're better than nothing. And you can still switch into a AirSlash with Raichu/Manetric and (in Raichu's case and sometimes Manetric with CB) can also set up. They aren't as good obviously, but they are the most tangeable substitutes we've got.

Checking a Pokemon is only an argument against the "brokenness of a Pokemon" if the checking Pokemon actually poses more of a threat than the Pokemon it's forcing out. This applies to Raikou, it does not apply to any other of those Pokemon.

I see.

They don't set up as easily, and Rhyperior / Aggron are not going to sweep through bulky Grass-types like Tangrowth either. The main thing that Torterra has is the ease of set up and lack of viable options to stop it. Rhyperior is pretty slow, even a Modest Scarf Venusaur can outsped and revenge kill it. Aggron is pretty squishy from the special side, so you don't even need a special Hidden Power to stop it. Blaziken and Azumarill both beat them with priority.

Torterra on the other hand forces you to use stuff like Scarf HP Ice since Ice Shard is very rare. Even Donphan's Ice Shard won't save it from being OHKOed by Wood Hammer.

Good point. (I'll come back to this...)

 

[M BLADE]

Reread my post, I'm sure you can figure out whether or not by saying Milotic is broken under the "defensive" I meant defensive Milotic or LO Milotic. :P

I didn't read everything, so i missed that part.
Still:

I believe (my opinion) that a poke should be seen as a whole.
Even though it's nominating under the defensive characteristic we should consider everything said poke can offer.
LO Milotic isn't defensive (duh), but it's still a Milotic set. If we did "ban" Milotic under the defensive characteristic, we're banning LO Milotic as well, right?

My opinion.
Do you think this opinion is nonsense, or do you "somewhat agree"?

And about Registeel? Does if fall under the defensive characteristic for you as well (since is walls a lot of pokes like Milotic)?

Only an idiot would keep his Moltres in on Raichu. Thunderbolt is a clean KO, and your literally only staying to stop it from setting up. That's suicide.

Disagree. This is called prediction, not idiocy.

 

[PK Gaming]

Disagree. This is called prediction, not idiocy

Really now? Your staying on a pokemon that cleanly OHKO's just to stop it from setting up? I mean come on. That's just silly. That Raichu could be any of the other sets that will utterly destroy you. Not worth it.

Hide

Trying to find a parallel so I can look cool

 

[Thund91]

Life Orb Wood Hammer destroys both Milotic (105.3% - 124.2%) and Slowbro (85.3% - 100.5% - practically guaranteed with SR). The trouble with Weezing, Tangrowth, and Leafeon is that you get the "oh well it has a couple checks that are easily passable" argument that applies to Raikou.

With that attitude we might as well ban Mismagius, because once that easily passable Registeel or Spiritomb dies than it's broken.

And Pokemon like Miltank and physically defensive Venusaur also counter RPTorterra, and I find them kind of hard to rid of (especially Miltank, so annoying).

 

[M BLADE]

Really now? Your staying on a pokemon that cleanly OHKO's just to stop it from setting up? I mean come on. That's just silly. That Raichu could be any of the other sets that will utterly destroy you. Not worth it.

Hide

Trying to find a parallel so I can look cool

Yes. Prediction.
You know many Raichu carries Nasty Plot, and you take your chances:

Moltres getting Thunderbolt'd to death is misprediction. You took your chance, and you paid for that.
If it Raichu NP your predict was right, and you got rid of a potential Moltres check/revenge killer.

If it's worth or not, it's up to you.

If you have a poke who can take NP Raichu, play safe of course. There's no need to risk a poke (i believe that's what you meant).

PS: unless you're facing a noob that plays like Ash on the anime (never switches pokes until they are KOed...)

PS2: stop switching your avatar dammit!

 

[PK Gaming]

Yes. Prediction.
You know many Raichu carries Nasty Plot, and you take your chances:

Moltres getting Thunderbolt'd to death is misprediction. You took your chance, and you paid for that.
If it Raichu NP your predict was right, and you got rid of a potential Moltres check/revenge killer.

If it's worth or not, it's up to you.

If you have a poke who can take NP Raichu, play safe of course. There's no need to risk a poke (i believe that's what you meant).

Sure. My main point was that Raichu can force out Moltres similarly to Raikou. Sure Raikou is guaranteed to live it's Fire Blast if Raikou stays in and CM's and Raichu can't but... it's kinda of whatever. It's really a one a million chance that Moltres will stay in. Same thing applies to Moltres. (Unless it wants to be a douche and take the switcheroo)

PS: unless you're facing a noob that plays like Ash on the anime (never switches pokes until they are KOed...)

Lol.

PS2: stop switching your avatar dammit!

It's Dean from Venture Bros. Dean>Hope.

 

[Meru]

The amount of sucker punch mindgames I've had to deal with this round is becoming increasingly annoying @___@

 

[shrang]

I don't think have much to fear. I mean, if Heysup is going to be the only one nominating, then they probably won't end up being Suspects anyway. If he's not, well it doesn't look like there will be many nominations anyway (Apart from NO SUSPECTS). Even if one of them does become a Suspect, who's to say that they'll get an >50% vote to get them banned anyway??

 

[Fiction]

Thats what mono dark teams are for lol. All seriousness I still stand my no suspects however I think that you have to think about certain pokemon before building a team. Moltres, Milo, Torterra all being some of them. I find that the Viability Thread is very useful for this as it gives an idea of a poke's potential from skilled players.
Congrats Heysup on mod status

 

[dbcb]

Has anyone been using Qwilfish as a way to take advantage of milotic?

It easily comes in on surf, ice beam, recover, toxic, hp grass (do they even still run this) or rest. It just can't come in on hp psychic or hp electric. And can set up spikes in its face or explode on it which OHKO's bold max max milotic.

 

[asdfrozen]

Anyone else try Occa Torterra with Rock Polish and Swords Dance?
Switch in on a resisted/immune hit -> RP on the switch -> SD on the fire move -> Sweep with EQ/SE
I chose Occa over Yache because of the lack of ice punch/beam carrying switch-ins.

 

[dbcb]

I don't think torterra needs SD to do its job if it is carrying life orb (or to a lesser extent expert belt)


Plus, occa doesn't have much of a use IMO. After a rock polish fire types are going to be scared to death of you anyway with torterra running RS and EQ. Yache at least will allow you to set up on a bulky water if they decide to stay in and ice beam you. of if sceptile switches in and hp ices you or something.

Even with an SD... is it going to get past bulky grasses or Weezing, or sceptile?

 

[asdfrozen]

You're probably right about the berry. I was debating between Yache and Occa.
After a SD it 2HKOs Leafeon but gets walled by Tangrowth (damn you leftovers!). Weezing takes around 50%, I believe.
Scarf Blaziken can revenge it, if it's Jolly.

 

[dbcb]

The offensive version I take it? In that case it is going to take 2 returns (37.2% - 43.8%) to the face from leafeon to get off the SD and also stone edge will have to hit 2x in a row.

 

[jamashawalker]

I haven't played much this metagame(been too busy) and the only thing ive noticed is the increase in toxicroak, houndoom, torterra, leafeon usage..but I'm curious what the dominate playingstyle is? Stall, offensive, Balance, Rain?

 

[Draco Zephyr]

I haven't played much this metagame(been too busy) and the only thing ive noticed is the increase in toxicroak, houndoom, torterra, leafeon usage..but I'm curious what the dominate playingstyle is? Stall, offensive, Balance, Rain?

Even now that we're getting into this metagame, I still don't see a really dominant playstyle. I'm running a standard Sunny Day team which has being doing quite well under an alt. Stall seems like the most prevalent (most prevalent does not mean it is rampant; rather, it's the most effective) playstyle, because it's quite effective at countering HO and balanced. Rain, on the other hand, has experienced a large drop in usage (at least from what I've seen). After about 10 battles today, I haven't see a single rain team. I'm not sure exactly what's causing the drop in Rain, but stall and balanced seem like the way to go in this metagame.