The First Smogon Council - Salamence

[JonTheRed]

As long as we're talking about Dragonite, the only thing Salamence doesn't completely outclass it in is support. Then again, Salamence does get access to Wish somehow; if it could pick up Heal Bell from the move tutors, why, there'd be no reason to use Dragonite ever, because then you'd have Salamence being the best offensive Pokemon in OU and a great support Pokemon.

But that's not important; what's important is that Dragonite is so much easier to stop, even with its great defenses, just because so many things can outspeed it and lay on the hurt. Salamence already starts at base 100 speed, which outspeeds a lot of OU as it is.

Executive summary: Dragonite has good defenses because it needs them to take hits from faster threats. Salamence's defenses aren't that much worse, but what does Salamence care when it can KO pretty much anything as it switches in? (Also, Intimidate.)

 

[Revolution.Z]

Intimidate says "hi." Yeah, Intimidate means that if Mence switches in on something (or after a KO), then his physical bulk exceeds Dragonite's. Until the switch, of course. But that reduces KO chances drastically. Also, Dragonite can be revenged more easily. Mence's speed means that he cannot be so easily revenged. So, they are not as similar as you make it seem, though I guess they can be compared.

Dragonite seems to have dropped in popularity, recently, as far as I can tell. Unless it rose in the last 2 days when I was gone, that is. And yes, I have seen more variety and more stall. Though it is not as close to omnipresent as it was earlier.

Intimidate of course but Nite has more general bulk. Let's put it this way. Say Mence and Any pokemon was in say Breloom they both came in on switches so no damage has been done etc. Intimidate activates clearly. The trainer switches out Breloom to any check etc. Mence's intimidate does not effect anything here so almost loses most of it's physical bulkiness whereas Nite does not face this issue. But yes point taken it does have more physical bulkiness perhaps than Nite.

I wouldn't go to the extent that mence is less easier to revenge due to the fact that most revenge killers are somewhat over a base 100 Spe Stat. Whether that be scarf or in general just higher. Also I would like to bring to your attention that intimidate does not help here :P lol.


And I didn't say nite was popular I'm just saying we are discussing possible alternitives to mence I dont understand where you understood that I said Nite was popular in OU.

 

[JonTheRed]

Intimidate of course but Nite has more general bulk. Let's put it this way. Say Mence and Any pokemon was in say Breloom they both came in on switches so no damage has been done etc. Intimidate activates clearly. The trainer switches out Breloom to any check etc. Mence's intimidate does not effect anything here so almost loses most of it's physical bulkiness whereas Nite does not face this issue. But yes point taken it does have more physical bulkiness perhaps than Nite.

Not only that, but the Salamence owner definitely knows they have the opponent in a situation where they must switch. Intimidate may not last long, but it buys time for the Salamence to accrue Dragon Dances or even just straight-up through a Draco Meteor onto whatever's coming in.

 

[Revolution.Z]

Not only that, but the Salamence owner definitely knows they have the opponent in a situation where they must switch. Intimidate may not last long, but it buys time for the Salamence to accrue Dragon Dances or even just straight-up through a Draco Meteor onto whatever's coming in.

Yes but if your opponent is smart enough he would switch in a salamence counter...???

 

[Jaxx]

Yes but if your opponent is smart enough he would switch in a salamence counter...???

Every Mence set has a different counter. How could you guess which one it is?

 

[Misa]

Dragonite hits 246 with 200 EVs and a neutral nature. (Mixnite set)
Salamence hits 328 with 252 EVs and a boostin nature. (New Mixmence set)

Between these numbers, here are notable Pokémon that Salamence can outrun: Gyarados, Skarmory, Gliscor, Suicune. This hampers Dragonite at wall breaking, as is it is slower than some walls it needs to take out. On top of this, Salamence is faster than a lot of offensive threats, such as Mamoswine, meaning that stopping it is harder, as revenge killing is limited in what will work, whereas Dragonite could be beaten by the likes of Lucario and other base 90s. Also, Salamence's ability to neuter some Pokémon with Intimidate, causing kills on him to become harder to achieve.

Usually, bulky variants of the notable Pokemon you mentioned are usually slower compared to the Mixnite set (who usually runs 246 speed). That means that Dragonite still outspeeds Gyarados, Skarmory (who Dragonite still outruns), as well as defense Suicune (offensive Suicune is dangerous btw). Mamoswine being slower than Salamence doesn't matter too much since Mamoswine will usually carry Ice Shard to eliminate Mence no matter how fast he is.

It's risky to switch Mence into something since he really gets hampered by SR and sandstorm damage, which means that he loses over (1/3) of his overall health. Dragonite loses the same amount of health, but he's a bit more bulkier compared to Mence, which could allow nite to survive more hits.

It's important to also note that most mixed-sweepers such as Dragonite, Infernape, and Salamence hardly has any counters since they are able to take on the majority of the metagame, although in different ways. For example, Dragonite could run superpower/draco meteor/dragon pulse/fire blast and he could probably 2HKO most of the walls in the standard metagame with the given aforementioned moves

 

[ThirdXavier]

Well, by the looks of this thread, 'mence is going to be Uber. This sucks. Of course, what do I have to say? I spend a lot of my time on shoddy, yet I almost never post in the forums, and I guess that automatically makes my word worth nothing.

'mence really isn't uber. At least he has one pokemon that counters him 100% of the time (cress), who's best counter (ttar) is stupid to pair with 'mence anyways. I guess he would "OPEN UP NEW OPPORTUNITIES" (that's spanish for complete theorymon) and judging the by the suspect ladder, the only pokemon that gets new opportunities is dragonite. I really don't think it's worth moving a pokemon to uber just to give breathing room to another pokemon. pokemon have always dominated tiers, and always will. If 'mence is removed then somebody else will come take its place, and the metagame will remain largely unchanged.

 

[Misa]

Well, by the looks of this thread, 'mence is going to be Uber. This sucks. Of course, what do I have to say? I spend a lot of my time on shoddy, yet I almost never post in the forums, and I guess that automatically makes my word worth nothing.

'mence really isn't uber. At least he has one pokemon that counters him 100% of the time (cress), who's best counter (ttar) is stupid to pair with 'mence anyways. I guess he would "OPEN UP NEW OPPORTUNITIES" (that's spanish for complete theorymon) and judging the by the suspect ladder, the only pokemon that gets new opportunities is dragonite. I really don't think it's worth moving a pokemon to uber just to give breathing room to another pokemon. pokemon have always dominated tiers, and always will. If 'mence is removed then somebody else will come take its place, and the metagame will remain largely unchanged.

Salamence doesn't always have to be paired up with T-tar. Mence/Gross pairing also works as well since Gross takes ice attacks aimed at mence and mence can switch in on incoming Earthquakes with ease. Note that Gross counters Cresselia without a problem.

Then again, Salamence is an important pokemon in having to deal with heavy-stall, and getting rid of Mence will probably not do this metagame any favours.

 

[Acritter]

Well, by the looks of this thread, 'mence is going to be Uber. This sucks. Of course, what do I have to say? I spend a lot of my time on shoddy, yet I almost never post in the forums, and I guess that automatically makes my word worth nothing.

'mence really isn't uber. At least he has one pokemon that counters him 100% of the time (cress), who's best counter (ttar) is stupid to pair with 'mence anyways. I guess he would "OPEN UP NEW OPPORTUNITIES" (that's spanish for complete theorymon) and judging the by the suspect ladder, the only pokemon that gets new opportunities is dragonite. I really don't think it's worth moving a pokemon to uber just to give breathing room to another pokemon. pokemon have always dominated tiers, and always will. If 'mence is removed then somebody else will come take its place, and the metagame will remain largely unchanged.

I don't think Salamence is Uber, but your statement here is flawed. The removal of Salamence HAS proven to open up opportunities for Grass-types like Shaymin and Celebi, and there is no Pokemon that does Salamence's job anywhere near the level that Salamence does it at.

 

[Misa]

I don't think Salamence is Uber, but your statement here is flawed. The removal of Salamence HAS proven to open up opportunities for Grass-types like Shaymin and Celebi, and there is no Pokemon that does Salamence's job anywhere near the level that Salamence does it at.

Infernape and Gengar would like to disagree. Both pokemon outspeed Mence and are more unpredictable compared to Mence, especially Gengar.

Also, Mence's SR weakness really hampers his ability to come into things imo (this includes Life Orb damage. CB and CS Mence sets are relatively uncommon so there's no point in discussing those sets for Mence's brokenness).

I'm saying salamence is broken, and if you ban him no pokemon would replace him and become the next suspect.

You sure about that? People thought that Garchomp was not even considered broken in the beginning of D/P, and look what happened to him now.

 

[Efemera]

I'm tired of people talking about Pokemon that are nowhere near as deadly as Salamence. Neither Infernape nor Gengar has a Dragon STAB, and Gengar doesn't even have access to a 120 power STAB attack. Scizor can come in on anything but an HP Fire (which you would only use when blindly predicting a Scizor coming in - Gengar has little reason to fire a HP Fire on just anything) and 1hko with Bullet Punch (or Pursuit, just to mix things up). ScarfTar comes in on anything but Focus Blast (lol 70% accuracy) and 1hkos with Pursuit. Umbreon tanks all of Gengar's moves and 1hkos with Payback. Calm Blissey walls Gengar and only fears Trick. Vaporeon and Suicune wall it unless it has Thunderbolt. Did I mention that Focus Blast has the worst accuracy ever?

Infernape has a great movepool but it lacks perfect coverage. Bulky waters like Vaporeon and Tentacruel give it a lot of trouble. Starmie can switch in on most of its attacks and threaten to 1hko. Infernape also has a much harder time switching in in the first place, since it has no immunities and no Intimidate. Its poor defenses gets it 2hko'd by most neutral attacks.

Salamence is more predictable than both of those Pokemon, but even when you know what set it's running, it can still put a massive dent in your Pokemon, thanks to its perfect mixed coverage, 100 base speed. The entire discussion has been about the brokenness of two sets. Salamence also has access to Roost, Brick Break, Hydro Pump, Wish, and a few other moves that are very usable, but go largely unused because those two sets are so good. Infernape can't run ThunderPunch, Hidden Power Ice, Close Combat, Overheat, Grass Knot, Mach Punch, Vaccuum Wave, Stone Edge, and U-turn at the same time. The only moves Salamence needs to choose between are Dragon Dance and Draco Meteor. Infernape can have 20 sets, and it still won't be as dangerous as Salamence.

 

[Revolution.Z]

Infernape and Gengar would like to disagree. Both pokemon outspeed Mence and are more unpredictable compared to Mence, especially Gengar.

Also, Mence's SR weakness really hampers his ability to come into things imo (this includes Life Orb damage. CB and CS Mence sets are relatively uncommon so there's no point in discussing those sets for Mence's brokenness).


You sure about that? People thought that Garchomp was not even considered broken in the beginning of D/P, and look what happened to him now.

Yes nape and gengar would like to disagree but cant.

They have easily counterable typing thats why they are inferior to mence. Theres only 3 types that can hit mence for SE damage and with it's decent bulk and 1 of them
(Rock) is one of the least used types of attack. It can take other attacks I wouldnt say fairly easily but can take them. Heres
the problem with nape and gengar.

Nape and Gengar have less bulk by far even being KO'ed by non SE attacks. They have less coverage than Mence STAB DM 140 Base even steels cant take that easily. Coupled with Hydro Pump, Outrage, Earthquake, Fire Blast, Brick Break and Even and HP if you wanted it has basically perfect coverage.

Feel free to disagree with nape but still it doesn't have perfect coverage and in general Gengar is easily walled by Blissey and other Sp. Walls unless running Sub+Focus Punch which is VERY uncommon. Also they're type resistances give them nothing tbh, whereas dragon has numerous resistances.
Theres the problem with them their frail at least mence had something to work with and mences pool was better.
And Arguably it could hit both spectrums hard (DM, Fire B etc) whereas Gengar obviously not and Nape yes it can but
it requires large EV investment into both as its Base is good but not exceptional like mence 130 and 110.

 

[Baldafor]

This probably won't add much to the discussion, but anyway, the Pokemon you mentioned (Gyara, Skarmory, Gliscor, Suicune) aren't going to stop MixNite any time soon (Maybe Suicune might, but eh). Roaring Gyara and Skarm don't run a lot of speed, so Dragonite can outspeed and 2HKO them just like Salamence would. Gliscor is going to take hammering from DM, and would be finished off by Extremespeed. Suicune is probably the only thing that can take two hits, but Crocune can't do anything back to Dragonite, and your typical Offensive Suicune takes a beating from DM + Extremespeed as well.

EDIT:


Dragonite and Mamoswine have the same Base Speed, and why would you run Ice Fang when Ice Shard OHKOs anyway??

Dragonite does not have Draco Meteor/Extremespeed/Fire Blast/Earthquake/Roost/Heal Bell/Superpower as a moveset with 252 speed and a + nature, 252 attack with a + nature, and 252 special attack with a + nature every fight, with Yache Berry and Life Orb and Leftovers as held items. You have to pick one or the other. In order to get those 2HKO's, you have to put EV's into special attack, which means Mamoswine does indeed outspeed you, for example. Salamence doesn't need to have all of those things to function, and often times uses the same nature and ev's for both sets, just changing Dragon Dance for Draco Meteor.

From your post, I garner that Dragonite would need a separate set to deal with each of the pokemon properly to guarantee a kill. This is not the case with Salamence at all.

Also, I would like to see what your counter is for Salamence when it is at 75% health, that takes a Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Earthquake (which you can't pick), then returns to do the same later when you are in the exact same situation but Salamence is at 34% or so.

 

[Misa]

I'm tired of people talking about Pokemon that are nowhere near as deadly as Salamence.
Instead of looking pokemon at a negative point of view, talk about their strengths. Infernape and Gengar both have traits that makes them extremely dangerous (plus no one uses Payback umbreon anyways).

Infernape has a great movepool but it lacks perfect coverage. Bulky waters like Vaporeon and Tentacruel give it a lot of trouble. Starmie can switch in on most of its attacks and threaten to 1hko. Infernape also has a much harder time switching in in the first place, since it has no immunities and no Intimidate. Its poor defenses gets it 2hko'd by most neutral attacks.
You ever tried SD Nape? Takes care of almost every counter that Infernape is weak to, including Vappy and Tentacruel (Gyaradoes dies with Thunderpunch). As for switching in, Salamence has a hell of a time switching in since SR takes 25% of his health everytime he switches in (and that's excluding the damage he'll take from resisted attacks). Also note that Infernape's unique speed tier allows him to avoid having to encounter speed ties unlike Salamence (who often have problems with Jirachi, Flygon).

Salamence is more predictable than both of those Pokemon, but even when you know what set it's running, it can still put a massive dent in your Pokemon, thanks to its perfect mixed coverage, 100 base speed. The entire discussion has been about the brokenness of two sets. Salamence also has access to Roost, Brick Break, Hydro Pump, Wish, and a few other moves that are very usable, but go largely unused because those two sets are so good. Infernape can't run ThunderPunch, Hidden Power Ice, Close Combat, Overheat, Grass Knot, Mach Punch, Vaccuum Wave, Stone Edge, and U-turn at the same time. The only moves Salamence needs to choose between are Dragon Dance and Draco Meteor. Infernape can have 20 sets, and it still won't be as dangerous as Salamence.
Infernape has more usable movesets compared to mence, which makes infernape that much more unpredictable and dangerous. For example, I could run a CB or a Physically-based mix for Infernape, and it could take out your infernape counter that is specifically designed for a NP ape. Since Salamence only has two moves to choose from, he becomes more predictable, which means that finding counters for Mence becomes much easier compared to Ape.

Also Infernape has 108 Base Speed which allows him to outspeed base 100s. (which means no speed ties with Jirachi, Flygon, opposing Mence, etc)

 

[SJCrew]

You ever tried SD Nape?

Yep, and it was incredibly difficult to set up with because Infernape's defensive typing is crap and it can't switch in on anything. Also, good luck getting past those Scarfers or Starmie because they're still going to counter you pretty hard.

As for switching in, Salamence has a hell of a time switching in since SR takes 25% of his health everytime he switches in

EQ immune, Bug/Grass (4x)/Fighting/Fire/Water resists, Intimidate, Intimidate, Intimidate. I have a fast Taunt lead or a spinner, and you have a slow, bulky lead or an anti-lead. Where are your rocks? It could go both ways, of course, but it's just as easy for me to assume SR is not up for the sake of the argument. You can't keep using that as a crutch to make Salamence easier to deal with.

Also note that Infernape's unique speed tier allows him to avoid having to encounter speed ties unlike Salamence (who often have problems with Jirachi, Flygon).

Having your own speed tier doesn't mean anything. The consequences of speed tying with Salamence are more dire than speed tying with anything else because it's going to OHKO you if you lose and fuck up the rest of your team. You might as well run Scarf Starmie and two bulky Steels on your team to keep your team from getting Outraged to death.

Infernape has more usable movesets compared to mence

Salamence only needs two to beat all of its counters and nothing in OU can beat them both. You can assume SD Infernape to beat Vappy, then NP Ape to beat Suicune, then Scarf Ape to beat Gengar, but he's generally going to lose to all of them with a standard mixed set (which is the most practical, most used, and most effective set by far, regardless of whether it's physical or special). Salamence has two equally effective sets that beat all of OU and can get in twice as easily to do it. Infernape is not broken at all, you can beat it with pretty much anything if it's faster or a wall not weak to any of its moves.

 

[Misa]

getting past those Scarfers or Starmie because they're still going to counter you pretty hard.

You realize that Scarfers and starmie scare off Mence more often than not other than the DD set right? (this is assuming you are not facing a DDmence).

From your post, I garner that Dragonite would need a separate set to deal with each of the pokemon properly to guarantee a kill. This is not the case with Salamence at all.

Dragonite could run a DD set just like Salamence and still be successful with it since he has the same capabilities as Salamence does, except that Mence has higher attack stats but lower defensive stats. It would take a Scarfed poke to properly stop a Nite that has DD'd once (and Mamo, but Mence also gets killed off by Ice Shard anyways).

 

[Baldafor]

To all you people who say "Don't compare Salamence to Dragonite" - why not? We are trying to determine what makes Salamence Uber, and Dragonite is as similar to Mence as you're going to get. It's a perfectly valid comparison. If the arguments for Salamence being uber are x, y, and z, then we have to see if x, y, and z are applicable to Nite as well. And if not, why?

The entire process of banning a pokemon to ubers involves taking a pokemon, in this case Salamence, and removing it and adding it to the system to test the viability of that pokemon in the metagame. It does not take into consideration that pokemon's replacements, as with Garchomp we saw that there is no direct replacement for that fills the same role. The pokemon's replacements, after all, are not the pokemon in question, and they would receive their own suspect test. Is that not true? Let's move on.

Dragonite is not Salamence. Is that not true? Let's move on.

If Dragonite were, at some point, to be considered an ubers suspect, it would be relevant to discuss Dragonite as it would be the suspect, and that discussion would have zero relevance to Salamence because Salamence is not Dragonite. Is that not true?

We do not compare pokemon to one another to determine whether one can fill the role of the other if they are banned. That is not how the process works. The procedure is to test whether the pokemon meets the uber characteristics, not whether another pokemon ALSO meets those characteristics.

Logic is very basic. If Dragonite is suspect, or uber, that doesn't mean Salamence is or isn't. Dragonite is irrelevant to the discussion of whether Salamence is uber or not because it is indeed not Salamence.

 

[Efemera]

Uh, so far in this thread we've only found two counters for Salamence - Regirock with Sandstorm support, and Cresselia.

SDnape can be a surprise to fight, but it has more counters than the mixed sets. It's still stopped by Suicune, and running a purely physical set means giving up the wallbreaking ability that MixApe has. You're obviously going to have to SD first, at which point your opponent knows you don't have Grass Knot or HP Ice, and you can be stopped by a physical wall. Mence can run Earthquake / Fire Blast / Outrage on both sets because it doesn't need to surprise anyone. It hits everything in the game for neutral damage. I don't deny that Infernape and Gengar are good Pokemon. I'm focusing on the negative traits to show what stops them from being broken. They have lists of Pokemon that will beat them 9 times out of 10 and they have to use sets that are tailored to get around those Pokemon if they want to beat them.

I run Wish / Heal Bell / Curse / Payback Umbreon as a cleric/curser/special wall. It stops status abusers like Dusknoir, Blissey, and Rotom in their tracks, and is a very good check to Gengar. Umbreon is popular enough to be in OU, however close to the line it is, so that's a pretty ignorant argument.

Edit: Oh yeah, Infernape is definitely harder to switch in than Salamence. Salamence may take 25% from SR, but it has a Ground immunity and Intimidate, allowing it to take minimal extra damage from whatever its opponent used on the turn it switched in. Infernape has no immunities, and generally has a hard time switching into anything that it doesn't resist without dying or having enough health to make use of its attack stats without dying to a priority attack or even just Life Orb recoil.

 

[SJCrew]

You realize that Scarfers and starmie scare off Mence more often than not other than the DD set right? (this is assuming you are not facing a DDmence).

That sounds cool until you realize that most of them can switch directly into Infernape without being OHKOed or 2HKOed because it doesn't have a strong 140 base attack that's only resisted by one type....and you have to assume Mence isn't running DD, which it will be about 50% of the time. :P

except that Mence has higher attack stats but lower defensive stats.

Defenses and attack have nothing to do with it. It's all speed and Intimidate. Speed stops Dragonite from checking, setting up on, or beating all the stuff Salamence does. I've made a fairly comprehensive list of things Salamence beats that Dragonite doesn't a while ago and it's more than just 1 or 2 Pokemon; anything that's faster than Dragonite poses a decent threat to it, or even just its ability to set up and sweep, making it reasonable enough to deal with under most circumstances.

 

[Misa]

Bronzong counters the DDset just fine since he does OHKO with Gyro Ball after Mence takes SR damage. He might not counter the Mixed set as well as the DD set but shouldn't Zong be considered a counter?

For example, Regirock and Cresselia both fall to Metagross (which is one of Mence's better teammates), which allows Mence to sweep easier, but how is Gross going to counter Bronzong? If it can't, Mence is stuck between a rock and a hard place, which means that Bronzong is more of a counter for Mence compared to Cresselia and Regirock.

Btw has anyone tried to use specially-defensive Suicune to stop a Mixmence? If EV'd properly a Mixmence's Draco Meteor shouldn't 2HKO.

 

[Efemera]

Bronzong counters the DDset just fine since he does OHKO with Gyro Ball after Mence takes SR damage. He might not counter the Mixed set as well as the DD set but shouldn't Zong be considered a counter?

For example, Regirock and Cresselia both fall to Metagross (which is one of Mence's better teammates), which allows Mence to sweep easier, but how is Gross going to counter Bronzong? If it can't, Mence is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Btw has anyone tried to use specially-defensive Suicune to stop a Mixmence? If EV'd properly a Mixmence's Draco Meteor shouldn't 2HKO.

No, because if it switches in on the Mixed set and takes a Draco Meteor, followed by a Fire Blast and dies, then you just lost a wall and MixMence has done its job.

Scratch that, Bronzong can take a Fire Blast at -2. It's still not safe from Mence's attacks, though. Fire Blast is actually a popular attack to use blindly, because it doesn't have any downsides other than 85% accuracy, and it hits most of the common switch-ins for super effective damage.

 

[Revolution.Z]

No, because if it switches in on the Mixed set and takes a Draco Meteor, followed by a Fire Blast and dies, then you just lost a wall and MixMence has done its job.

Then you sac some fodder dont you?

 

[Misa]

No, because if it switches in on the Mixed set and takes a Draco Meteor, followed by a Fire Blast and dies, then you just lost a wall and MixMence has done its job.

Draco Meteor decreases mence's SpA by 2 stages, which means that Fire Blast will not OHKO Bronzong, ever. Bronzong then OHKOs with Gyro Ball.

Draco Meteor doesn't even 2HKO Bronzong, and Draco Meteor + Earthquake/Outrage probably won't KO Regirock and Cresselia either.

 

[Revolution.Z]

Bronzong does not Counter salamence it Checks it. Don't get terms confused

 

[SJCrew]

MixMence has done its job.

Let's try to avoid this phrase from now on, k? Salamence is perfectly capable of coming back in and getting another kill after it's "done it's job" on something that was suppoesd to counter it.

Bronzong then OHKOs with Gyro Ball.

Gyro Ball deals 51.1% - 60.1% to standard Salamence sets. >_>

Your opponent can beat Brozong with Mence if they want to at the cost of most of its health, or just beat it on the next encounter. Either way, Brozong won't last.