Bluewind maybe if you weren't trying to bully the facts in your favor, you could see why you are just being ignorant with these points. Yes, you can help cover venusaur "somewhat" but guess what, no one is going to keep their Pokemon in on Magcargo. And while other UU Pokemon can threaten at least a decent portion of UU, Magcargo is doing SHIT. Its sitting around, hoping to status, hoping to do something useful, but its not. Why? Because any decent team will by default have 4-6 Pokemon that completely handle "Magcargo". Your venusaur support seems more like a waste of a slot that you could use with a real support mon.
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NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
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That is the inherent definition of a counter. Magcargo counters those Pokemon. If you don't have a counter to Swellow, Scyther, etc. then your team is likely 6-0ed since they're too fast to be checked. Magcargo also limits their switch-ins through SR.
That's a broad generalization. I object to your use of broad generalizations.
Or you could think of Magcargo as "setting up Stealth Rock and covering both Flying-types and Fire-types with one Pokemon".
You can "claim" you can use Magcargo as a counter but guess what - Magcargo is useless beyond those specific niches. Ok, I can agree that he stops those Pokemon - The problem is he does absolutely nothing to the new Pokemon that switches in. Forcing a switch is nice, except you will likely be switching too with a SR weakness and other terrible weaknesses that I have repeatedly stated. I don't see why you insist on ignoring this?
I object to you thinking Magcargo is a Pokemon that should be viably used in UU.
I have already told you why this thinking is wrong - There isn't anything you can do afterwards to any Pokemon switching in. You are just too slow and weak to be an actual threat.
Woo, Magcargo. I remember trying it out just to counter Moltres back when Spikes were the shit, and I also remembered how everything in UU just switched in on it and threatened to OHKO because it's 4x weak to Water and Ground, moves that over half of UU commonly uses. We could probably go somewhere if it weren't also wasn't SR weak and one of the slowest Pokemon in UU to where even Slowbro and Slowking can outspeed it and OHKO before it uses Toxic, but...
How about Blastoise and Kabutops? They completely and utterly curbstomb this guy without trying and spin its rocks away. You could just use something like Registeel and Milo, which not only take your Flying/Fire types, but damn near everything else in UU.
How about Blastoise and Kabutops? They completely and utterly curbstomb this guy without trying and spin its rocks away. You could just use something like Registeel and Milo, which not only take your Flying/Fire types, but damn near everything else in UU.
I am not ignoring this. Okay, say I have a Milotic and I switch in and force out your Magcargo. You switch to Venusaur. Now what? I can't do anything and I took SR damage + two turns of Toxic. This is equivalent to what Magcargo takes from SR damage. This argument applies to every single Pokemon in the game. Plus, I can hit stuff on the switch with Toxic, and Steels can't switch in cause I have Fire STAB.
Then support it with sound reasoning, you kinglerdude.
I clarified my point.
SJCrew said:
Toxic them on the switch. Also, Milotic and Registeel are two Pokemon; Magcargo is one.
your arguements ar flawed. all scyther teams carry a reliable spinner, whereas carrying one for a pokemon that walls, what, 5 pokemon is dumb. scyther is an offensive behemoth, doing like 30% to even its counters, and the few pokemon that are full stops are easily exploited. but this is on magcargo, who cannot do anything offensively. i understand it can wall a few ok pokemon, but it allows EVERYTHING TO SWITCH IN FOR FREE. does your wonderful brazilian hair not comprehend? magcargo can't threaten anything. do you know what can't threaten means? apparently you like letting a ton of pokemon come in for free. bootyhole.
sjcrew please don't troll >_>
sjcrew please don't troll >_>
on the topic of magcargo that bluewind character interrupted us in, the reason i don't like it is because you need a ton ofsupport and all it is is a counter to a few certain pokemon. a few. five, tops. with his shit special defense, i would not be surprised if hp grass is a 2hko with rocks up. dickface. with all this support, why not use it for something GOOD, like registeel or venusaur or arcanine or any other not shit pokemon. bluewind, your arguements are flawed and so is your personality. go to hell. maybe flame body will be useful there!
LOL, bluewind wins topic.
Also, Magcargo is pro. It even gets Light Screen. Does Arcanine get Light Screen? I thought not.
this last page has caused this to become the best thread on Smogon that I've ever read (even though I cannot help but think that the vitriolic nature of these posts are fabricated).
I think Flareblitz has a good idea in initiating something similar to the research week threads; testing out cool new strategies and neat synergies and junk will (possibly) help to diversify the (supposed) stagnant metagame without worrying about testing out BL 'mons and waiting for OU usage drops and what not.
I think Flareblitz has a good idea in initiating something similar to the research week threads; testing out cool new strategies and neat synergies and junk will (possibly) help to diversify the (supposed) stagnant metagame without worrying about testing out BL 'mons and waiting for OU usage drops and what not.
Well, just when I thought the thread couldn't get any worse. I can agree that macargo can fill a semi-useful niche in this metagame, but I can also agree that you can find something "better". Why does anyone want something to check lots of threats, but it weak to the most common type of entry hazards? It doesn't make much sense to me, but I really don't think this discussion needed to go so far. Can we change the subject now? Please.
argh... guys i can't respond cause you guys triggered the "adult/mature" setting on my controls... i'll see what ican do, but please keep this conversation clean... and no, light use of curse words don't trigger them...
Also, Flamewheeler, Magcargo is unique. You can't really say it's outclassed when its defensive aspects are incomparable to any Pokemon (Recover, Rock typing, etc.)
Also, Flamewheeler, Magcargo is unique. You can't really say it's outclassed when its defensive aspects are incomparable to any Pokemon (Recover, Rock typing, etc.)
Incomparable in that they are pointless? Yeah, I guess that lost grass resistance and additional water and ground weaknesses are really worth it. Come on eo, magcargo has nothing on the great walls already found in uu because of his poor typing and "meh" niche in UU. I also think you have to compare Magcargo to other defensive Pokemon because that's exactly the point - Is magcargo truly worth it in uu?
I think the answer, my friend, is a legitimate "No".
I think the answer, my friend, is a legitimate "No".
Jesus christ guys it's fucking magcargo, can we keep this shit in perspective please? Does exactly call for personal attacks does it?
It probably won't set the tier on fire but I'll tell ya something, it walls the fuck out of half my current team, which is pretty damn impressive. Of course it dies horribly to the other half but you know...
It probably won't set the tier on fire but I'll tell ya something, it walls the fuck out of half my current team, which is pretty damn impressive. Of course it dies horribly to the other half but you know...
Magcargo (yeah, whoops) isn't fantastic, but it does have a niche. Nothing else can:
-Cover Fire-types like Moltres and Arcanine
-Cover Flying-types like Swellow and Scyther and
-Cover some Grass-types (Leafeon, Venusaur without EQ, Choiced Sceptile), all at the same time, with instant recovery.
-Cover Fire-types like Moltres and Arcanine
-Cover Flying-types like Swellow and Scyther and
-Cover some Grass-types (Leafeon, Venusaur without EQ, Choiced Sceptile), all at the same time, with instant recovery.
Outclassed was the word I used, but I probably should've chosen wiser. I know nothing can do its job "better" per se, but building a standard team, I guess would just ultimately work better than just using something like macargo because it's unique. I just don't get to be quite honest. =/ Why use something that is, in reality, nothing more than a liability and mainly a gimmick? =/ I honestly can't bring myself to call this a viably competitive pokemon.
Edit:
No need to act like a dick. K thanks!
I fully support any Pokemon that puts a complete stop to Moltres. HP Grass does 38-44%, which could be a problem if switching in on Rocks, but Fire Blast does only 24-28%. A fucking Magcargo is 4HKOed by Moltres Fire Blast without any SpD EVs at all.
It's not that reliable of a Swellow check due to SR weakness. Facade does 26-31%, so if Magcargo has taken SR damage once before and switches in again, it's a 2HKO. Say, for example, Swellow comes in and U-turns to Milotic as Magcargo switches in. Then next time Magcargo switches in it's 2hkoed by Facade. It's probably good enough, but Swellow is never ever ever breaking through Rhyperior/Steelix/Regirock so it's not great by comparison. (Plus Swellow can't be burned, which is one of Magcargo's biggest selling points)
As for Scyther, SD Brick Break hurts it a ton. +2 Brick Break does 79-94%, almost a guaranteed OHKO with SR. It does great against CB Scyther, although Brick Break is a 2HKO with Rocks (45-53%). Its main advantage here is that it's the only Pokemon that can pinish Scyther for U-turn spam due to the Burn chance. On the other hand, if Scyther keeps U-turning to Milotic it keeps Rocks of the field, so that's a downside.
So there's my damage calculation-obsessed side to it. Basically, if you keep SR off the field, it can perform a pretty useful niche, but there are probably better things to use.
Against my current team, I can see it being sort of annoying because it gets free switches on two of my Pokemon, and my team hates being burned. But half OHKOs it and the last Pokemon isn't bothered by it at all.
It's not that reliable of a Swellow check due to SR weakness. Facade does 26-31%, so if Magcargo has taken SR damage once before and switches in again, it's a 2HKO. Say, for example, Swellow comes in and U-turns to Milotic as Magcargo switches in. Then next time Magcargo switches in it's 2hkoed by Facade. It's probably good enough, but Swellow is never ever ever breaking through Rhyperior/Steelix/Regirock so it's not great by comparison. (Plus Swellow can't be burned, which is one of Magcargo's biggest selling points)
As for Scyther, SD Brick Break hurts it a ton. +2 Brick Break does 79-94%, almost a guaranteed OHKO with SR. It does great against CB Scyther, although Brick Break is a 2HKO with Rocks (45-53%). Its main advantage here is that it's the only Pokemon that can pinish Scyther for U-turn spam due to the Burn chance. On the other hand, if Scyther keeps U-turning to Milotic it keeps Rocks of the field, so that's a downside.
So there's my damage calculation-obsessed side to it. Basically, if you keep SR off the field, it can perform a pretty useful niche, but there are probably better things to use.
Against my current team, I can see it being sort of annoying because it gets free switches on two of my Pokemon, and my team hates being burned. But half OHKOs it and the last Pokemon isn't bothered by it at all.
<angry rant>Aw man I've been using a Magcargo/Venusaur combo on my sandstorm team for aaages and you guys just bust out this massive argument over the poor snail</angry rant>. I already had SR on my team with Hippo so I got to use both Toxic and HP Rock, and I have to say it walls the utter crap out of Moltres, Arcanine, Houndoom, Magmortar, Leafeon, Scyther, Swellow... basically the Pokemon that have already been listed. I used it with a DD Feraligatr since Magcargo just destroys waters over the course of the battle with Toxic. It is a seriously underestimated niche Pokemon that can fill common holes in teams, but yeah it requires thoughtful play because of how badly it's beaten by the remainder of the tier.
lol at the three page macargo discussion.
thoughts:
a true son of a bitch to face in this current metagame. i myself take it a serious defensive threat just because it has access to recovery. ffs, a defensive fire-type with a recovery move! (a reliable one too). its also the only rock-type that has a recovery move that can combat with both cb scyther and swellow consistently. recovery on a rock-type is a pretty cool niche when switching into facade + u-turn swellow or u-turn scyther. additionally, its not exactly the hardest pokemon to switch into because you risk either getting burned by lava plume (switching in donphan or dugtrio for instance) or getting your bulky water injected by poison damage via toxic.
i think recovery + unique typing is enough for macargo to be considered a serious defensive threat. it does however, have some major drawbacks such as stealth rock weakness for a defensive pokemon. i'm just hopping on the bandwaggon, this is one annoying pokemon to face.
edit: forgot to mention i remember LR using it a long time back when moltres was the cream of the crop. he used it in tandem with sandstorm making it twice as difficult to deal with. so yea, two good players (eo and lr) have used it and they didn't seem like gimmicks to me.
thoughts:
a true son of a bitch to face in this current metagame. i myself take it a serious defensive threat just because it has access to recovery. ffs, a defensive fire-type with a recovery move! (a reliable one too). its also the only rock-type that has a recovery move that can combat with both cb scyther and swellow consistently. recovery on a rock-type is a pretty cool niche when switching into facade + u-turn swellow or u-turn scyther. additionally, its not exactly the hardest pokemon to switch into because you risk either getting burned by lava plume (switching in donphan or dugtrio for instance) or getting your bulky water injected by poison damage via toxic.
i think recovery + unique typing is enough for macargo to be considered a serious defensive threat. it does however, have some major drawbacks such as stealth rock weakness for a defensive pokemon. i'm just hopping on the bandwaggon, this is one annoying pokemon to face.
edit: forgot to mention i remember LR using it a long time back when moltres was the cream of the crop. he used it in tandem with sandstorm making it twice as difficult to deal with. so yea, two good players (eo and lr) have used it and they didn't seem like gimmicks to me.
Hail used to be much better when Froslass was around (though I think that they tended to be weak against Froslass as well...). People think "zomg Ice types only" but really if you have Snover, Walrein and four others that aren't necessarily Ice-type, I'd still call that a functioning Hail team. There's not much more I can comment on because I gave up on Hail after Froslass was banned. Admittedly, it's just not that great now, at least from where I'm standing.
Well, a hail team DID top the ladder recently, so theres some merit left in it.
Hail is very very very difficult to do in the fire-and-Milotic infested meta we have now. Milotic hard walls everything that runs Blizzard, and Fires(especially Blaziken) beat down the majority of hailmons(except Stallrein, but he's an outlier). Plus, theres the whole "SR weak" thing.
I ran a hail team back in Froslass era of SpecialSnover/Stallicuno/Claydol/DDAltaria/Sneasel/CMBro to a bit of success, but it still got fucked sideways by most things running priority or Milly(and Lass, but that doesn't count).
Not to sound like a dick, but none of that was particularly helpful. I'm asking for tips against Hail, not the history of Hail. And Blizzard is still really potent considering it does ~25% to Milotic and will easily freeze if you try to PP stall or wall it.
For starters, I'm going to try replacing Houndoom with Ninetales. With a higher base speed, I can invest less EVs into speed to beat base 95s (mostly Arcanine and Houndoom) and more into SpDef so that it'll actually be helpful in soaking up a Blizzard.
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