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NP: UU - Silent Night
- Thread starter reachzero
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Spiritomb. That and the influx of physical Pokemon now in UU.
And the fact that Chansey just pretty much outclasses it in the Special Wall/ Cleric department. Having said that, he could still be totally potent if you account for his shortcomings. Chansey just has less of them.
Spiritomb barely dents Hypno, not to mention Hypno has reflect and can nasty pass if you're relying on that. I find Hypno to be a lot scarier because unlike Chansey, he can actually deter physical threats from switching in.
Well, I've actually been using Counter Chansey lately (yes, I know it's gimmicky, and so 2003), so I don't actually mind some physical threats switching in. Not as many OHKO Chansey as I thought, especially when I predict well and Softboiled on the switch. LO Dugtrio, for example, typically deals about 500 HP to my Chansey, so Counter deals 1,000 HP damage back (not that it needs to)! I've found Dugtrio is a very common switch-in to Chansey, so I love it when my Chansey OHKOs it! The difficult ones are the ones with Swords Dance, but I usually play safe, and use Thunderwave, although it does seem like such a loss if they attack you, and you know you would've KOed them if you'd've used Counter instead. But obviously, it's probably worse if you use Counter, and they Swords Dance, as most things OHKO Chansey after Swords Dance, and then the rest of you team has a +2 Pokemon to deal with.
And I would hardly say that Spiritomb "barely dents" Hypno. I mean, it learns Sucker Punch, Pursuit and Shadow Sneak. The Spiritomb that I'm using at the moment has 2 of those moves.
Hypno is better in some ways though. It can actually use special attacks, it gets Reflect, it gets Hypnosis which is much better than Sing, you can carry a physical move if needed (which Chansey certainly cannot do), you get Baton Pass, Nasty Plot and Belly Drum, and Hypno can actually effectively use Calm Mind.
I prefer Chansey in general, but Hypno does have its uses.
Yeah, it should. Hypno holds that yo-yo type thing, so it could be a better version of that, sort of like how you can give Marowak a Thick Club, or Farfetch'd a Stick.
Chansey is more physically durable than Hypno is. Well, at least if you want it to be specially bulky in any way.
252 HP/252 SDef Calm Hypno has 65,824 physical bulk and 135,014 special bulk.
252 Def/252 SDef Calm Chansey has 76,736 physical bulk and 238,656 special bulk.
So yeah, unless you're going to run like Bold Hypno or something, which fails as a special wall, Chansey is going to be easiliy bulkier on the physical side. Chansey can even run Bold if it wishes, still trump Hypno in special defensiveness, and deal with a max Def/max HP Hypno (89k without the nature, which beats Bold Chansey by less than 10%).
252 HP/252 SDef Calm Hypno has 65,824 physical bulk and 135,014 special bulk.
252 Def/252 SDef Calm Chansey has 76,736 physical bulk and 238,656 special bulk.
So yeah, unless you're going to run like Bold Hypno or something, which fails as a special wall, Chansey is going to be easiliy bulkier on the physical side. Chansey can even run Bold if it wishes, still trump Hypno in special defensiveness, and deal with a max Def/max HP Hypno (89k without the nature, which beats Bold Chansey by less than 10%).
Hypno is definitely a great Nasty Passer. Since you're slow and at the mercy of the opponent's switch, I find it makes sense to go for 252 HP / 252 Def Bold, which makes Spiritomb only a minor threat to your pass. The best it can muster is a ~50% 2HKO with CB Shadow Sneak. It has about the same special and physical bulk, which is generally enough on both sides to pull off a pass.
If you're not Nasty Passing, it's generally worse than Chansey, but I'm pretty sure Meru was at least referring to using Nasty Plot.
If you're not Nasty Passing, it's generally worse than Chansey, but I'm pretty sure Meru was at least referring to using Nasty Plot.
That and the fact that the more powerful special attackers still sodomise him quite badly, I mean, you're still facing a very possible 2HKO (About 55% chance) from Timid Moltres' Fire Blast after SR.
Except Hypno can Psychic the Substitute and than Thunder Wave to make them both useless, unlike Chansey who's pretty much a free entry for so many sweepers to wreak havoc. So Hypno is not "owned by Missy or Rotom" because they can't set up on him.
Hypno needs to watch out for those CM/Sub Missys though (Which forces you to either Psychic or Thunder Wave correctly). You can rather easily bypass this by using Zen Headbutt though.
Just a side, Hypno only has a 1/3 chance to get OHKO'd after SR by non-LO +2 Missy's Shadow Ball (79.14% - 93.58%) assuming 252/252+, which is pretty amazing.
Just a side, Hypno only has a 1/3 chance to get OHKO'd after SR by non-LO +2 Missy's Shadow Ball (79.14% - 93.58%) assuming 252/252+, which is pretty amazing.
The only way Chansey can beat Misdreavus is if it Toxics it on the switch, in which case, Chansey wins, if Mismagius doesn't have Rest. Otherwize, there's absolutely nothing it can do, whilst Mismagius makes itself insanely powerful.
Or you can be a real gimmick abuser and run a CM Chansey hahaha. 108 SpA EVs and Shadow Ball means you're breaking CM Missy's subs as you boost with it.
Wow. I never thought of that. Mismagius would also be able to do nothing to Chansey with Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Fighting, and would be a great way for Chansey to set up, oddly enough.
However, having Shadow Ball and Calm Mind on Chansey doesn't leave much room for the plethora of other moves Chansey wants to use. XD
ok, so this thread went to shit (again). so let's discuss this good post.
Steelix is what it is imo. His support set is still the set I'd go with almost every time since he can't break through many walls without Explosion and he does a good enough job at countering what he's supposed to and setting up SR. super powerful Gyro Balls are pretty good against teams that don't have a handy resist...but basically everyone has a bulky water as their primary switch to Steelix. It can probably cause some problems against offense by getting free turns and hitting stuff hard on the switchin, but then you lose a lot of the walling capabilities that let it come in.
Tauros is sexy. CB Double-Edge or Return is extremely powerful. With a Life Orb, Tauros is an excellent late-game cleaner, more effective than Kanga since he has higher speed and the coverage moves to make up for not having Scrappy. Intimidate, as always, is a fantastic ability and actually gives tauros some chances to switch in with his respectable bulk.
meta trends: hey, bog standard works, even if your opponent knows it's coming. an anti-meta team is really hard to make this round, and more likely than not it'll just end up resembling a standard team.
as for the spinner vs. ghost, I'm assuming that the ghost has to switch in. This in itself poses an issue as every spinner has some way to at least take a chunk off of a spin blocker since it's easy to predict their switch-in. Blastoise can run Hydro Pump and invest to do more damage, Hitmontop can use Stone Edge or Foresight, Donphan has Head Smash/Assurance, and Kabutops is straight up powerful. That being said, I would definitely want to be the spinner. Not only do I have a shot at hitting the ghost hard as it comes in, even if I predict wrong and have my spin blocked I can just go to a pursuiter and easily eliminate the ghost unless it has WoW and even then something like EoTomb still kills it.
Speaking of Steelix... The BaitLix set is so incredibly good. Obviously it is a lure for things like Milotic, but most people never see it coming at all. In the early stages of the match you can switch in on physical attacks and set up SR or Roar to scout which Pokémon you should explode on. When the opposing Milotic least expects it, BAM! Your Moltres / Feraligatr / Blaziken / Whatever can reck some havoc. I paired it with a LO Blaziken and a bulky Restalk DD Feraligatr and it did very well.
I have to say, along with everybody else, that Kangaskhan is truly a great CBer and it's all because of Scrappy. With the standard CB Tomb taking over half from one Return, and obviously a whole lot more to any Ghost not named lolclops it is a great weapon against stall teams and just balanced teams in general. One of the only threats to Kanga is Registeel, who gets beat up mid to late game quite easily as many players rely on him to handle many threats like Swellow, Venusaur, Mismagius, Leafeon etc... allowing Kanga to just keep spamming Return. It also has EQ to threaten Registeel with, but of course it is easy to just switch to an immune Pokémon.
I have to say, along with everybody else, that Kangaskhan is truly a great CBer and it's all because of Scrappy. With the standard CB Tomb taking over half from one Return, and obviously a whole lot more to any Ghost not named lolclops it is a great weapon against stall teams and just balanced teams in general. One of the only threats to Kanga is Registeel, who gets beat up mid to late game quite easily as many players rely on him to handle many threats like Swellow, Venusaur, Mismagius, Leafeon etc... allowing Kanga to just keep spamming Return. It also has EQ to threaten Registeel with, but of course it is easy to just switch to an immune Pokémon.
Another thing Hypno has is Boton Pass. It goes great with Nasty Plot and/or Thunder Wave. Pursuit doesn't work on Boton Pass. So you can easily escape from a Spiritomb or a paralysed Drapion/Houndoom, and go to your Dark-resist without Hypno receiving any damage. Plus, if you get a Nasty Plot in on Spiritomb switching in, then you can pass that to a Magneton (for example) and cause pain with a +2 Thunderbolt. I've done this (but with a CM+BP Espeon to Blaziken a LONG ago), and it works wonders on unprepared teams.
I'm not really sure why you'd run Earthquake on Kangaskhan when Low Kick or Hammer Arm can hit Spiritomb for super effective damage and can destroy Registeel too.
That's true, but usually you won't be spamming Hammer Arm but Return because it is much more powerful and doesn't have a bad effect. Earthquake is good for when you are facing a Kabutops, lets say, and you don't want to use Hammer Arm because it is less powerful and has a bad side effect. If you carry Low Kick over Hammer Arm, than it does less damage than EQ to the light Kabutops, so it isn't worthless. It also hits things like Lanturn for super effective damage.
Anyone face some relatively unknown (yet powerfulthreats?)
-Nasty Plot Toxicroak. It's a HUGE monster, to face and teams relying on Milo/Venu/Weezing cores are fucked. I usually use defensive Rotom/ghosts to check Toxicroak, but Nasty Plot will rip you a new on.
(I'm talking about Nasty Plot / Sludge Bomb / Vacuum Wave / Dark pulse. (Focus Blast is useless, get a Registeel check I tell you)
-Blaziken in general. I really feel bad for this pokemon. It doesn't get the usage it deserves (nobody runs it) and i remember badmouthing this pokemon a few threads back. This pokemon is still very much a monster. Mixed sets are still pretty lethal (especially with Entry hazards support) SD Blaziken tears Stall a new one. (Jolly + Max speed please) and teams have some difficulty taking it down. Scarf sets can mess up you bad, especially if you rely on faster pokemon to check Blaziken.
Finally, it's not SR so it's not reliant on a rapid spinner.
Other pokemon include:
-Manectric (Charge Beam/Choiced) Can sweep through defensive cores after a boost, or plain old cripple switch in's with Switcheroo.
-Kanghaskan (Choice Band) Hits like a truck, and isn't checked by ghots due to scrappy.
-Jynx (Nasty plot) Can cripple a counter with Lovely Kiss, sub up, boost and sweep.
-Leafeon (Swords Dance) Can sweep through several teams with it's high powered STAB move and speed. If you don't have counter, your forked.
Get out there and try these pokemon you guys, I swear you won't be disappointed.
-Nasty Plot Toxicroak. It's a HUGE monster, to face and teams relying on Milo/Venu/Weezing cores are fucked. I usually use defensive Rotom/ghosts to check Toxicroak, but Nasty Plot will rip you a new on.
(I'm talking about Nasty Plot / Sludge Bomb / Vacuum Wave / Dark pulse. (Focus Blast is useless, get a Registeel check I tell you)
-Blaziken in general. I really feel bad for this pokemon. It doesn't get the usage it deserves (nobody runs it) and i remember badmouthing this pokemon a few threads back. This pokemon is still very much a monster. Mixed sets are still pretty lethal (especially with Entry hazards support) SD Blaziken tears Stall a new one. (Jolly + Max speed please) and teams have some difficulty taking it down. Scarf sets can mess up you bad, especially if you rely on faster pokemon to check Blaziken.
Finally, it's not SR so it's not reliant on a rapid spinner.
Other pokemon include:
-Manectric (Charge Beam/Choiced) Can sweep through defensive cores after a boost, or plain old cripple switch in's with Switcheroo.
-Kanghaskan (Choice Band) Hits like a truck, and isn't checked by ghots due to scrappy.
-Jynx (Nasty plot) Can cripple a counter with Lovely Kiss, sub up, boost and sweep.
-Leafeon (Swords Dance) Can sweep through several teams with it's high powered STAB move and speed. If you don't have counter, your forked.
Get out there and try these pokemon you guys, I swear you won't be disappointed.
I'm actually using a Nasty Plot Toxicroak and it's great for stall and balance (hai bad ass); I always switch between Toxicroak sets. A while ago Toxicroak were all NP and SD was forgotten, so I switched to SD. Now all Toxicroak are physical so I switched back to NP. :)
And I used CB Blaziken a while ago. Twas fun 2HKOing Milotic switch-ins, except there's the whole 'can't switch moves' thing which sucks.
And I used CB Blaziken a while ago. Twas fun 2HKOing Milotic switch-ins, except there's the whole 'can't switch moves' thing which sucks.
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