NP: UU - Silent Night

[Ice-eyes]

Strictly addressing 'Sleep argument is invalid, other stuff can sleep':

Other sleepers have way more counters and fewer switch-in opportunities. Jynx is hard countered by Milotic AND Registeel, and it can't switch into ANYTHING because it's frail and has a horrible typing. Exeggutor again, while it has similar resistances, is much slower - it can't come in on or revenge-kill quite so much stuff and it's a lot less threatening in terms of sweep potential, because many things outspeed Exeggutor that don't outspeed Venusaur. It's also weak to Pursuit, so can't play hit-and-run like Venusaur can throughout the match.

No other Sleeper has Venusaur's combination of power, bulk, speed and resistances. It's far easier to carry multiple checks / counters to other sleepers than it is to Venusaur. That argument simply doesn't work.

Banning Sleep to keep Venusaur UU can't be compared to Damp Rock either. In eight-turn Rain many sweepers are arguably broken, and banning Kabutops or Ludicolo or whatever wouldn't make Rain significantly less effective. Meanwhile, no other sleep users are queueing up for BL.

 

[jamashawalker]

to change topics....I've changed my milotic HP grass to Eletric....I'm sure alot of other ppl have caught on by now...I'd rather hit quilfish for super effective damage than let it have a free turn to set up spikes than have HP grass hit the rare gastrodon and quagsire...and omastar and kabutops arent that much of a problem ( for me at least)

 

[capefeather]

But i always surprise those Registeels with Alakazam's HP Ground, they never expect it. [And of course, because it's not on the smogon strategy dex.]

What are you even trying to insinuate here? Alakazam's most used coverage move is Focus Blast, which deals more damage to Registeel.

I was going to talk about other stuff, but the general conversation seems to have died...

 

[aVocado]

What are you even trying to insinuate here? Alakazam's most used coverage move is Focus Blast, which deals more damage to Registeel.

I was going to talk about other stuff, but the general conversation seems to have died...

Again, i don't like the lack of accuracy [I tested it, failed me in the WORST times], and HP Ground has been successful for me, so why not ?

 

[Naxte]

Strictly addressing 'Sleep argument is invalid, other stuff can sleep':

Other sleepers have way more counters and fewer switch-in opportunities. Jynx is hard countered by Milotic AND Registeel, and it can't switch into ANYTHING because it's frail and has a horrible typing. Exeggutor again, while it has similar resistances, is much slower - it can't come in on or revenge-kill quite so much stuff and it's a lot less threatening in terms of sweep potential, because many things outspeed Exeggutor that don't outspeed Venusaur. It's also weak to Pursuit, so can't play hit-and-run like Venusaur can throughout the match.

No other Sleeper has Venusaur's combination of power, bulk, speed and resistances. It's far easier to carry multiple checks / counters to other sleepers than it is to Venusaur. That argument simply doesn't work.

Banning Sleep to keep Venusaur UU can't be compared to Damp Rock either. In eight-turn Rain many sweepers are arguably broken, and banning Kabutops or Ludicolo or whatever wouldn't make Rain significantly less effective. Meanwhile, no other sleep users are queueing up for BL.

Perhaps, but the thing is though I was particularly focusing on SJCrew's comment that Sleep can quite potentially make a Pokemon useless for the rest of the match, which is quite often true (or at least long enough for the Pokemon to be heavily weakened/KO'd). Pokemon like Jynx, Exeggutor, and Tangrowth may be frail, slow, or both, but that's kind of irrelevant, as far as Sleep's concerned--just bring them in one something faints, Sleep as the opponent switches to their first counter, and just with that, one Pokemon's already potentially crippled for the rest of the match and you're given a free turn of set-up/switch, in addition to whatever else the Pokemon may do. It's not guaranteed and Pokemon like Jynx, which may commonly have multiple checks/counters on the same team like Chansey and Registeel and may end up being handled nonetheless, having that one Pokemon out of the way for a bit can quite easily lend support to other members of the team, and open the opponent up for a Moltres sweep or something, depending on the Pokemon put to sleep, the one that put it to sleep, etc.

Of course, like I said previously, I don't exactly think right now that Sleep itself is actually that broken/we need to revise Sleep Clause or something (due to things like Sleep Powder having a risky, though still accurate more often than not, 75% accuracy, RestTalk sets, Sleep Clause itself, and so forth), but I also don't believe things are really quite so simple as Venasaur itself being broken either.

 

[M BLADE]

...no.
Shrang posted a sunnybeam Entei set for QC and I pointed out that it was almost completely outclassed by Arcanine, Moltres, etc.

No, no. It was on a megahread from a while ago (CM Rest Talk Entei... remermber when i told you to do the calcs about a +2 Venusaur using EQ and shit? That time).
My point is that some poke sets can be compared as long as they share the same traits, no matter how different the pokes are in a whole (LO Moltres X LO special Venusaur comparsion), then i just give a exmple of the other way around (similar pokes with way different uses between their sets).

Meh i won't say i'm the best poster here too... i suck, i must admit. That's why i'm posting way less than before.

Aaaanway: i didn't saw any decrease on Venusaur usage... but i'm certain that Milotic is everywhere.
About Alakazam: Chansey and Spiritomb are the best answers/counters. Skuntank can do it too, but not always (well, it's my prime choice because it can Explode after doing it's Pursuit job).

 

[Meru]

About Alakazam: Chansey and Spiritomb are the best answers/counters. Skuntank can do it too, but not always (well, it's my prime choice because it can Explode after doing it's Pursuit job).

We know Chansey and Spiritomb are the best answers/counters. Neither of those fit on an offense team though, which was the discussion I was trying to generate.

@ Heysup: You're still not taking into account the one thing that ALWAYS makes Venusaur harder to switch into than Moltres: Sleep Powder. Even if you're something like Registeel who laughs off all of hits attacks, you're almost always giving him a free turn. If the Pokemon is offensive and doesn't have Natural Cure, it's very likely to be useless for the rest of the match. Once Sleep Clause is active, it's pretty damn easy to pick it off, but until then, it's going to be a pain to switch in on.

This times a million. I can't count how many times I've given my Venusaur to another Venusaur's Sleep Powder only to regret it later in the game because I end up getting swept by something that my Venusaur needs to wall like Poliwrath or Azumarill. Yes it's very easy to let death fodder get slept, but that's not always an option.

Substitute "my Venusaur" with "Registeel" and suddenly you have a Mismagius sweep.
Substitute "my Venusaur" with "Arcanine" and suddenly you have your own Venusaur sweeping, etc.

Sleep is very good team utility, and the sole reason why these Moltres to Venusaur comparisons aren't valid to me. Do I think Venusaur is BL? I'm kind of on the fence. But he's definitely a top threat in the UU metagame and to hear all of these people exaggeratingly downplaying the strengths of the #2 pokemon is bizarre to me.

 

[M BLADE]

We know Chansey and Spiritomb are the best answers/counters. Neither of those fit on an offense team though, which was the discussion I was trying to generate.

Skuntank is the answer then.
Just beware with Aggron, and you're good to go.
Drapion and Scarf Absol fits too, but i always think Skuntank is more suited for Pursuit.

 

[Meru]

Yeah but I hate Drapion, Absol, and Skuntank though :P. If I could just run SD Sniper Drapion with Pursuit instead of Night Slash, I'd be content, but that wouldn't work. Maybe it's just because it's the first team I've ran in a while that doesn't have Spiritomb, but I wouldn't be surprised if next week when the August stats come out, Alakazam usage rises.

And Swellow... I've tried it but my team has been leaning more towards bulky offense than heavy offense. Swellow has been falling off the radar since May. It's kind of depressing for the poor bird.

 

[Heysup]

I think you missed what the "people" actually said, because LO Moltres and LO Venusaur definitely don't both fall into the "special sweepers" category. They can, but they can also not. Venusaur can run viable physical and mixed sets; Moltres is almost certainly special based. This unpredictability has been mentioned by pretty much everyone advocating Venusaur for BL. An example given many times is that although Leafeon and Tangrowth wall physical sweeper Venusaur to hell and back, they both die horribly to Sludge Bomb, which many variants of Venusaur might carry (special sweeper, defensive versions, Leech Seeders, even bluff types with Swords Dance + Sludge Bomb ...).

The fact that Venusaur has other sets is completely irrelevant to my argument. I am solely talking about Venusaur's most common (and best) set. Frankly, the other sets aren't anything special unless you want to sacrifice your bulk/power arguments for the mixed / sd sets.

And the worst part is, that again, other Pokemon (even Moltres) can fuck its counters up when they switch in too if it's using a different sets. If that was a valid argument, we'd have to ban not remotely broken Pokemon like Blaziken because it can be mixed, it can be SD, it can be scarfed and beat basically all its would-be counters. In fact you point out how one sided Flare Blitz's argument is yourself:

On the other hand, FlareBlitz's statement that Milotic is a 100% safe switch in to any offensive Moltres isn't exactly right either. There are uncommon-but-still-viable Moltres sets who will put Milotic at a disadvantage, most important of which is the SunnyBeam set, but choiced sets with U-turn can also bring in a dangerous Pokemon like Sceptile for free. Not to say Milotic isn't a good counter to Moltres (in fact, it's a great counter to Moltres), but to be honest, blanket statements like this one should really be avoided like the plague.

;)

@ Heysup: You're still not taking into account the one thing that ALWAYS makes Venusaur harder to switch into than Moltres: Sleep Powder. Even if you're something like Registeel who laughs off all of hits attacks, you're almost always giving him a free turn. If the Pokemon is offensive and doesn't have Natural Cure, it's very likely to be useless for the rest of the match. Once Sleep Clause is active, it's pretty damn easy to pick it off, but until then, it's going to be a pain to switch in on.

Sleep Powder needs to be taken off its pedestal. Is putting one Pokemon to Sleep (with 75% accuracy) for a short time once really that much better than being able to repeatedly blast things into oblivion with a strong attack (like Air Slash / Fire Blast / Hidden Power Grass coverage is infinitely better than Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm). You are taking away a coverage move by using Sleep Powder, and you can only use it once.

It's great, but not that great.

 

[Head Smash]

I have to agree with Heysup that Sleep isn't a very big deal. 75% chance is already pretty shoddy, but add on to that that sleep only lasts for 4 turns maximum, and you have a pretty useless move much of the time. I personally would prefer coverage (or greater speed so that coverage is less necessary!) to an accuate sleep-inducing move. Several reasons for this include:

1.) Chance of missing sleep: 25%.
Chance of a slower Pokemon waking up right after being slept: 25%.
Chance of a slower Pokemon waking up either right after being slept or on the next turn: 50% (!).
Chance of a faster Pokemon waking up one turn after being slept: 25%.

So if you're faced with a slower Pokemon, the chance that your sleep powder didn't do anything worthwhile and that your counter is now active again is like 62.5%. You could have just attacked outright to the same effect instead of risking the miss.
If you're faced with a faster Pokemon, the chance that your sleep powder didn't do anything worthwhile is like 43.75%. And although the % chance is smaller, keep in mind that since the Pokemon is faster and you're likely catching it on the switch, you have a chance to get owned here. Attacking seems to be the better choice most of the time.

2.) only one Pokemon on your team can viably carry sleep, because you're wasting an additional move-slot by carrying two. so if Venusaur carries Sleep Powder, your Jynx can't carry Lovely Kiss. Moltres with Air Slash doesn't force this issue onto anyone.

3.) There are Restalkers everywhere, so sometimes sleep is (nearly) useeless.

4.) Lum Berry is more common than a random resist berry, or maybe even all resists berries put together (tough to measure, but yeah...), since Lum is a catch-all for status, so sometimes your sleep is wasted.

5.) Sometimes you really are better off just attacking regardless of 1-4. Sleep can be undone--damage is harder to undo (requires a healing move).

 

[Bad Ass]

a few short turns where i can set up a boost, do more damage with my venusaur, heal my venusaur, or cripple a key component of your team and open up a sweep later. you make it sound like the pokemon is not completely useless for two or three turns, and if you want the sleep timer to go down then you have to keep in a completely useless pokemon. while i do whatever i want. we stress sleep because it is the best status in the game. and it cant wake up the turn you put it to sleep. there is a one turn minimum

edit: above post is stupid

 

[Head Smash]

and it cant wake up the turn you put it to sleep. there is a one turn minimum

Okay, then scratch the point. Doesn't change a lot, though. Obviously sleep is a good move, but the point is: how does it qualify as being broken? Or, rather, take a Sleep-Powder-less Venusaur. Would you call it broken? I certainly wouldn't. And I don't think there's anyone else here who would either.

So now, with that said, it's pretty obvious that Sleep is the element pushing Venusaur over the edge. My question is: why? What about Sleep is so potent that it can take a good or even above average (80 base Speed is not that great...) Pokemon and make it broken?

 

[Bad Ass]

sleep powderless venusaur is not broken. sleep is so potent because while you can switch in whatever to sop up the attack, you get put to sleep and become set up fodder and are unable to heal / do anything.

 

[Envoy.of.Water]

Aren't all the Venusaur noms on the Support Characteristic?

Doesn't that mean that Sleeping a Pokemon and blowing holes in the opponent's team (even if it doesn't KO the enemy Pokemon) are the major arguments for a Venusaur ban?

If this is true (I don't know, I'm a newbie), then it's sweeping potential is a minor footnote, is it not? Weather it can consistently allow other teammates to sweep or not is what should be discussed, isn't it?

So, the question becomes: Can Venusaur consistently and effectively allow it's teammates to sweep?

Sleep Powder is a big part of Venusaur's support prowess because it can shut down an enemy Pokemon, thus giving you a free switch/set up another Pokemon.

It's typing gives it useful resistances to some common attack types (Water, Fighting, Electric, Grass) and lets it come in. It can then blow holes in the opponent's team with powerful Leaf Storms and Sludge Bombs (+2 Earthquakes and Power Whips too, though much less frequently seen) which can give a teammate the chance to bypass a would be counter.

Is this enough to make him broken though?

That's what should be discussed. Not weather or not it's strong enough or durable enough when compared to Moltres or Raikou (both offensive Pokemon nominated under the Offensive Characteristic, not the Support Characteristic, I might add) or what-have-you. Rather, can he effectively support a team with little problem?

 

[Anachronism]

The recent trend of Restalk Weezing has really put a damper on Venusaur's ability to completely remove something from the game with sleep. It might work against Offensive teams, but full Offense is largely gone because things like Mismagius and Alakazam necessitate Tomb or Registeel unless you want to have a ton of priority (which is situational at best). The stallish metagame that exists at the top really reduces the effectiveness of Standard Special Venusaur.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Anyway I don't mean to compare Raikou with Venusaur - they are obviously different Pokemon and play very differently. I'm comparing Eo's reasoning, which seems dubious to me. A combination of two Pokemon will always wall Raikou depending on what HP it runs. A combination of two Pokemon will always wall Venusaur as well, at least as far as I can see. After sleep clause is active then off the top of my head Altaria, Weezing and Moltres will wall Venusaur or at least be able to switch into, outspeed and KO. Maybe something will fall asleep, but unless you run a Rest-talker something will fall asleep to any Pokemon with a sleep move, so ...

Also Sceptile is extremely versatile, and can run anything from Subseed to Specs to mixed to Swords Dance to Subpunch, so again as far as I can see the only reason Sceptile isn't using Grasswhistle is because of the accuracy.

Finally Eo I don't think you're wrong by voting Raikou UU - it's just that based on your position for Raikou, I would've expected you to argue that Venusaur is UU.

Well, it's not as simple as that. Sure, if we were looking at the two Pokemon in a vacuum, then based on the versatility argument, I would probably both the same way for both of them; however, there are other factors that come into play, including the respective Pokemon's environment, typing, and longevity. I'm not saying Venusaur is necessarily broken due to these factors; I'm saying that you can't really directly compare Venusaur with Raikou. There is really only one argument that applies to them both.

Additionally, I discussed Venusaur awhile back with Bluewind, and he presented an argument in the vein of "I can make a team that is naturally capable of handling Venusaur. I don't have to overprepare for it, and preparing for Venusaur doesn't force me to significantly open up my team to other threats." This is the same way I felt towards Raikou. As a more defensive player, I naturally would have more trouble with Venusaur than Raikou. Perhaps this might explain my position a little better.



Speaking of comparisons, stop comparing Moltres to Venusaur. It does not prove any points. First of all, Moltres is #19 in usage. Venusaur is #2. You're comparing Venusaur to a statistically inferior Pokemon. Arguing that Moltres is not actually inferior due to unique attributes and such - despite what usage stats have shown us - is an admission that Venusaur cannot be directly compared to Moltres, which obviously nullifies any argument comparing Venusaur to Moltres. Arguing that Moltres is better than Venusaur is just silly when Venusaur is used more by a much wider margin.



Re: Sleep. Sleep enables you to disable a Pokemon with which you would otherwise have trouble. It requires little prediction to use, and there are far less switch-ins to it than there are to actual attacking moves.

Also, RestTalk Weezing is not very good at walling Venusaur, actually. It's KOed by Leaf Storm + Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm iirc (so you get two chances to wake up). As for SD Venusuar, you have to hope Sleep Talk picks Will-O-Wisp AND accurately guess on which turn you'll wake up if you don't burn Venusaur. If Sleep Powder's accuracy is being held in question, then Weezing's viability as a Venusaur counter is even shakier.

 

[SJCrew]

(Note: I do not support Venusaur for BL, so keep that in mind before you decide to respond to any of this post:)

It's great, but not that great.

You are severely underestimating the power of immobilizing a Pokemon and potentially removing it from the game. If an offensive Pokemon takes the sleep, it's effectively useless for the duration of the match. On the defensive level, you're still a step behind. Try to switch in a sleeping Registeel to counter Mismagius and it will only continue to setup and eventually kill it. We're talking about an extremely defensive Pokemon here too; offensive UUs simply don't have the liberty of godly defenses to even try and wait sleep out.

for a short time once

Only if you manage to hold on to that sleeping Pokemon until the end of the match. If you encounter a situation where that Pokemon needs to be sacrificed for a sweeper to get in safely, Venusaur could get another chance to use it later on in the match.

Is putting one Pokemon to Sleep (with 75% accuracy) for a short time once really that much better than being able to repeatedly blast things into oblivion with a strong attack (like Air Slash / Fire Blast / Hidden Power Grass coverage is infinitely better than Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm).

Attacks can be walled. Sleep? Not so much. Even with all that power and coverage, there are other factors at play, namely HP Grass's low base power and no STAB. Bulky Water types will still switch-in, take less than half, and threaten you out a vast majority of the time. Milotic and Slowking have recovery, so they can keep doing this throughout the match.

In Venusaur's case, almost everything is wary about switching in because of Sleep Powder. And make no mistake, Grass/Poison is a very potent offensive combination in UU. Plus, Venusaur's STABs have higher BP, which puts them on equal footing in terms of neutral damage. Check out the calcs:

Leaf Storm vs. Mismagius: 90.8% - 107.3%
Fire Blast vs. Mismagius: 90.8% - 107.3%

Sludge Bomb vs. typeless Mismagius: 58.6% - 69%
Air Slash: 57.5% - 67.8%

In case some of you haven't figured it out by now, base power of moves counts for a lot in this game, which allows huge discrepancies in offensive power to be edged out by having the stronger moves. That's why Pokemon like Lucario can deal such an absurd amount of damage with just 110 base Att.

I don't have time or patience weigh the coverage of Fire Blast/Air Slash and Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb on a statistic, but experience should tell you that not many Pokemon resist both in either case. Yes, they are different Pokemon that check/counter different things, but as far as this discussion is concerned, Venusaur is as much an offensive powerhouse as Moltres is, topped off with a reasonably accurate sleep move. It wouldn't be a problem if Venusaur had Sleep Powder, lower defenses, and hit like a pussy, but it's a struggle to find viable team choices that can take both of its STABs fairly well not mind sleep.

 

[Thund91]

One word: Muk.

Also nice custom title Eo.

 

[Anachronism]

If only Muk had WoW and Levitate...

 

[Meru]

One word: Muk.

Also nice custom title Eo.

I find Muk to be dead weight and an invitation for stronger sweepers to come in. Kind of like Weezing without WoW and Thunderbolt paralysis to deter things from switching in.

As an example, Raikou had counters just like Muk. Why did people not want to slap Chansey on every team to counter Raikou? Invitation to deadly sweepers like Rhyperior and the potential to be dead weight if not on a stall team. Why did people not want to slap Cresselia on every team to counter Salamence? An invitation to deadly sweepers that could potentially make it dead weight like Scizor and Tyranitar. The benefit of countering one powerful pokemon can be drastically outweighed by allowing many more powerful pokemon to set up.

 

[shrang]

Also, RestTalk Weezing is not very good at walling Venusaur, actually. It's KOed by Leaf Storm + Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm iirc (so you get two chances to wake up). As for SD Venusuar, you have to hope Sleep Talk picks Will-O-Wisp AND accurately guess on which turn you'll wake up if you don't burn Venusaur. If Sleep Powder's accuracy is being held in question, then Weezing's viability as a Venusaur counter is even shakier.

Why would I keep Weezing in?? Yeah go ahead and sleep Weezing, and then I'll just switch to something that easily takes Venusaur, be it Arcanine, Moltres, etc. There are so many Pokemon who can easily check Venusaur when Sleep Clause is active. Yes, you have made one intelligent switch to your RestTalk Weezing, but what's stopping you from making another one??

 

[Heysup]

Additionally, I discussed Venusaur awhile back with Bluewind, and he presented an argument in the vein of "I can make a team that is naturally capable of handling Venusaur. I don't have to overprepare for it, and preparing for Venusaur doesn't force me to significantly open up my team to other threats." This is the same way I felt towards Raikou. As a more defensive player, I naturally would have more trouble with Venusaur than Raikou. Perhaps this might explain my position a little better.

Isn't it ideal to remove your playstyle from the equation when deciding a Pokemon's tiering status (like I needed to for Froslass/Raikou)? Otherwise you're going to undeniably have a bias.

Correlation does not imply causation[/URL]. Just because (what you think) the best Pokemon are happen to be at the top of the stat chart, does not mean they are in fact the "better" Pokemon. And some times Pokemon have different niches that are not part of the argument. For example, Arcanine is arguably better than Moltres, so it has competition. Venusaur has barely any competition as a Grass-type sweeper. When I compare the two, I am comparing them as sweepers alone. The fact that they have differences are what gives them various advantages/disadvantages over one another.

Second, I never once argued that Moltres is better. In fact, I don't think you even read my posts if you managed to miss "I am not suggesting Moltres is better, because it isn't." At least read the comparisons and then decide you don't think their valid for whatever reason.

The reason I made the comparisons, for the 1203912th time: People were complaining that Venusaur is bulky and is really hard to switch into. Moltres is also bulky and is hard to switch into (and if you want me to be honest, I'd rather switch into Venusaur then Moltres on my offensive teams). I am factually pointing out similarities between the two Pokemon. They are factuallysimilar in those ways. I know they have many many many differences, but you only need couple overriding similarities (they are both special sweepers that are bulky and hard to switch into) to compare two Pokemon. Again, availability heuristic is the false tendency just to think something is more correct or likely because it is easier to think of examples. That is what's happening here.

I would prefer people actually address the argument rather then try to attack the comparison itself.

Re: Sleep. Sleep enables you to disable a Pokemon with which you would otherwise have trouble. It requires little prediction to use, and there are far less switch-ins to it than there are to actual attacking moves.

Sleep Powder is great. Sleep Powder also has 75% accuracy. It also only lasts for 1-4 turns so after you use it (only if you catch them on the switch).

Also, RestTalk Weezing is not very good at walling Venusaur, actually. It's KOed by Leaf Storm + Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm iirc (so you get two chances to wake up). As for SD Venusuar, you have to hope Sleep Talk picks Will-O-Wisp AND accurately guess on which turn you'll wake up if you don't burn Venusaur. If Sleep Powder's accuracy is being held in question, then Weezing's viability as a Venusaur counter is even shakier.

Weezing switches in:
Leaf Storm: 36.8% - 43.7%
-2 Sludge Bomb: 11.7% - 14.1%
-2 Leaf Storm: 18.6% - 21.9%

Not KOed. You are better off with Sludge Bomb + Sludge Bomb + Leaf Storm:

Sludge Bomb: 24% - 28.1% (x2 = 48% - 56.2%, but - 6.25 (leftovers) = ~50%)
Leaf Storm: 36.8% - 43.7%

So with Stealth Rock and maybe some prior damage, you can possibly KO it...but it's very unlikely. You need max damage rolls.

I did think Weezing was better than this, I'll admit. It's still a solid counter though.

You are severely underestimating the power of immobilizing a Pokemon and potentially removing it from the game. If an offensive Pokemon takes the sleep, it's effectively useless for the duration of the match. On the defensive level, you're still a step behind. Try to switch in a sleeping Registeel to counter Mismagius and it will only continue to setup and eventually kill it. We're talking about an extremely defensive Pokemon here too; offensive UUs simply don't have the liberty of godly defenses to even try and wait sleep out.

The thing is, against said offensive team, you're almost better off firing off a strong Fire Blast because I'd rather KO an offensive Pokemon than Sleep it.

And a slept Registeel can still beat Mismagius most of the time....(+4 NP Lefties Thunderbolt only does 42% - 49.7%)

Only if you manage to hold on to that sleeping Pokemon until the end of the match. If you encounter a situation where that Pokemon needs to be sacrificed for a sweeper to get in safely, Venusaur could get another chance to use it later on in the match.

That's just an example of someone outplaying another person. It has little to do with Sleep Powder.

Attacks can be walled. Sleep? Not so much. Even with all that power and coverage, there are other factors at play, namely HP Grass's low base power and no STAB. Bulky Water types will still switch-in, take less than half, and threaten you out a vast majority of the time. Milotic and Slowking have recovery, so they can keep doing this throughout the match.

Sleep can't? What about my Restalk Registeel / Weezing? What about my Lum Berry. What about my scary Substitute staring Venusaur in the face?

Also, most competitively common attacks are more accurate than Sleep Powder. They can also flinch/crit/status etc.

And I believe you're all forgetting that Venusaur can't run around using Sleep Powder and win the match. You do need to actually attack to lower your opponent's HP to 0. Spamming Sleep won't KO the opponent. You're going to need to risk using Sludge Bomb and Leaf Storm without an opponent's Pokemon slept. KOing Pokemon before they wake up is hard if they are played well.

In Venusaur's case, almost everything is wary about switching in because of Sleep Powder. And make no mistake, Grass/Poison is a very potent offensive combination in UU. Plus, Venusaur's STABs have higher BP, which puts them on equal footing in terms of neutral damage. Check out the calcs:

Leaf Storm vs. Mismagius: 90.8% - 107.3%
Fire Blast vs. Mismagius: 90.8% - 107.3%

Sludge Bomb vs. typeless Mismagius: 58.6% - 69%
Air Slash: 57.5% - 67.8%

In case some of you haven't figured it out by now, base power of moves counts for a lot in this game, which allows huge discrepancies in offensive power to be edged out by having the stronger moves. That's why Pokemon like Lucario can deal such an absurd amount of damage with just 110 base Att.

Leaf Storm is actually very slightly weaker still: 90.5% - 106.9%. But if you're comparing Leaf Storm to Fire Blast, I believe it's obvious which is better, and by how much.

According to some article I read on-site somewhere, special Fire is the best attacking-type. Fire Blast also can be used more than once. Compare the damage over two attacks:

For example, against (non flash-fire) Arcanine (not that you'd try to Leaf Storm twice, just an example against a resistant foe):

Fire Blast x 2: 92.2% - 109%
Leaf Storm x 2: 69.2% - 81.6%

or against Chansey:

Fire Blast: 53.6% - 63.6%
Leaf Storm: 40.1% - 47.7%

I don't have time or patience weigh the coverage of Fire Blast/Air Slash and Leaf Storm/Sludge Bomb on a statistic, but experience should tell you that not many Pokemon resist both in either case. Yes, they are different Pokemon that check/counter different things, but as far as this discussion is concerned, Venusaur is as much an offensive powerhouse as Moltres is, topped off with a reasonably accurate sleep move. It wouldn't be a problem if Venusaur had Sleep Powder, lower defenses, and hit like a pussy, but it's a struggle to find viable team choices that can take both of its STABs fairly well not mind sleep.

Nothing resists Moltres's combination of attacks in UU. Venusaur has loads upon loads of Pokemon that resist / are immune to both its attacks (all poison types that do not have a second stab weak to poison, Pure Steel-types, etc).

Moltres also has a shit ton of Super effective coverage. Like it can OHKO Pokemon like Hariyama and Hitmontop. Can Venusaur? No. With Sleep Powder, it's important to consider that you are sacrificing coverage for Sleep. This is a great trade, but that doesn't mean you can ignore what coverage moves do for making a Pokemon hard to switch into (for example, with Moltres).

 

[Thund91]

If only Muk had WoW and Levitate...

Except it has a much better physical movepool/attack to actually hurt things, Curse (which it can actually use, unlike Weezing), and a much better Special Defense stat to actually wall what it's supposed to, unlike Weezing, which fails.

I find Muk to be dead weight and an invitation for stronger sweepers to come in. Kind of like Weezing without WoW and Thunderbolt paralysis to deter things from switching in.

As an example, Raikou had counters just like Muk. Why did people not want to slap Chansey on every team to counter Raikou? Invitation to deadly sweepers like Rhyperior and the potential to be dead weight if not on a stall team. Why did people not want to slap Cresselia on every team to counter Salamence? An invitation to deadly sweepers that could potentially make it dead weight like Scizor and Tyranitar. The benefit of countering one powerful pokemon can be drastically outweighed by allowing many more powerful pokemon to set up.

WoW might be a slight bonus, but it just invites Fire-types to come and rape you (also, a wall like Milotic can totally take advantage of that burn to not be Toxic'd by another Pokemon), and did you seriously say Thunderbolt paralysis? lol

Anyways, Arcanine is also an open invitation for Rhyperior, Milotic, Azumarill, Flash Fire users, Kabutops, Omastar, whatever to come in, and it's still a top UU Pokemon. Just because a Pokemon can let in a few dangerous Pokemon (which Arcanine does as well) doesn't mean it isn't viable and is "dead weight." Also, Muk can Focus Punch on the switch and deal up to half of standard Rhyperior's health, so it can only switch in once. There's also Giga Drain but that's very gimmicky and whatever. Rhyperior is only a one time check to SubPunch anyway so Rhyperior doesn't make Muk useless.

Also don't give me this "BUT ARCANINE CAN DO OTHER SHIT TOO!" So can Muk. Actually Muk can pose more more of a threat than Weezing. Weezing has the shitty and inaccurate Will-O-Wisp that can backfire on you, while Muk can set up Curse on the 2 most common Pokemon in the tier. So there.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Why would I keep Weezing in?? Yeah go ahead and sleep Weezing, and then I'll just switch to something that easily takes Venusaur, be it Arcanine, Moltres, etc. There are so many Pokemon who can easily check Venusaur when Sleep Clause is active. Yes, you have made one intelligent switch to your RestTalk Weezing, but what's stopping you from making another one??

Okay? If you never keep Weezing in, it's probably not going to wake up. I'm not saying you should necessarily keep it in, but this example clearly illustrates the inefficiency of RestTalkers, especially weak ones like Weezing. Furthermore, this also reinforces the point that you need multiple Pokemon in order to check Venusaur.