NP: UU - Silent Night

[FlareBlitz]

@Thund - Sure Offensive Venusaur is 2HKO'd by Ice Beam, but are you really going to stay in and go for the 2HKO?

Why the hell not? LO 'Saur can't ohko Calm 252/56 Milotic after a turn or two of leftovers (how depressing is that by the way), meaning Milotic is free to use Ice Beam and try for the 2hko. Going to put Milotic to sleep? Okay, you just activated Marvel Scale and made it easy for half the tier to switch into your goofy ass.

The best argument that the Venusaur-for-BL people have come up with is the argument comparing it to Rosie (who was probably broken), but I think the difference in power, access to better moves and way better ability, and especially the difference in speed pushed Rosie (who was already controversial enough) well over the edge. The defense difference hardly even matters since Venusaur isn't going to be switching on Rhyperior or Donphan very safely anyway (donphan KOs with eq -> ice shard, rhypie just KOs with EQ) and most other physically-inclined attackers it switches into 2hko even through resisted hits (Close Combat from Monlee) or have coverage options (Ice Punch from Toxicroak).

 

[Banedon]

I don't think it's fair to bash SJCrew since I'm the one who brought up Raikou.

Anyway I don't mean to compare Raikou with Venusaur - they are obviously different Pokemon and play very differently. I'm comparing Eo's reasoning, which seems dubious to me. A combination of two Pokemon will always wall Raikou depending on what HP it runs. A combination of two Pokemon will always wall Venusaur as well, at least as far as I can see. After sleep clause is active then off the top of my head Altaria, Weezing and Moltres will wall Venusaur or at least be able to switch into, outspeed and KO. Maybe something will fall asleep, but unless you run a Rest-talker something will fall asleep to any Pokemon with a sleep move, so ...

Also Sceptile is extremely versatile, and can run anything from Subseed to Specs to mixed to Swords Dance to Subpunch, so again as far as I can see the only reason Sceptile isn't using Grasswhistle is because of the accuracy.

Finally Eo I don't think you're wrong by voting Raikou UU - it's just that based on your position for Raikou, I would've expected you to argue that Venusaur is UU.

 

[Head Smash]

My point was that Trick is enough to stop Blissey from switching in readily. How many times did you actually see Latias use Trick?? Not very many.

And my point is that the same argument can be made for Venusaur and Sleep Powder. Plus, let's not forget that when the sleeping Pokemon dies, Venusaur can use SP again--Latias can't Trick another Scarf after mistakenly Tricking the wrong Pokemon.

As for being a smartass: sometimes the best way to illustrate the fragility of a point is to rephrase it.

 

[Heysup]

you practically answered your own question - sr is the main drawback with moltres. how does moltres even sweep easily with sr being so omnipresent in the metagame? unlike venusaur, it can switch in without taking a wooping 50 percent and not have to worry about relying on a spinner to actually help it switch into threats and make use of its resistances. lets be honest here, moltres is one shakey motherfuck and if you are planning to switch in grass-type moves it is tough. moltres is placed out of commision by sleep powder or takes a ton of damage from sludge bomb (57% - 67.3%) pure ohko with sr down. sceptile threatens with rock slide or hp rock, while leafeon damages with double-edge or worse gets a +2 on the switch and removes moltres, torterra rock polishes as it switches or gets hurt by rock slide. its that very reason (sr) why venusaur has a much easier time switching into moves and venusaur shines best at switching into defensive walls (the common milotic) and even stuff like hitmontop. moltres grass-resistance is nothing to boast about since grass-types can actually beat it. the ground resistance is nice however, i'll give you that, but that comes with a hefty price of taking 50 percent from sr.

You're forgetting that Earthquake and Leaf Storm (Venusaur's in particular, since its the most common Pokemon) do next to no damage to Moltres when it switches in.

Say I am user Heysup and I love using Moltres with Donphan. I will keep rocks off the field in almost every match because I like using Moltres / Swellow / Scyther etc. So with Moltres switching in with full health, it's at essentially no risk from Venusaur or any other Grass-type when switching in. The real kicker is the Earthquake immunity. When Moltres comes in for free, with full health, every 5th (or so) attack (that is Earthquake, according to stats), you're going to get a lot of mileage out of it. With Venusaur, you can switch into Milotic (it can 2HKO you with Ice Beam, as I've learned), but it really has no business switching into common attacks like Moltres does.

Venusaur has no business switching into common attacks, and Moltres does even when considering SR. Grass-types like Sceptile and Leafeon are going to get a leg up on Moltres, but that's nothing compared to the amount of switch-ins Moltres will get from Venusaur and Earthquake. Again, Moltres isn't broken, but when compared to Venusaur, it only seems as if the reasons people want Venusaur banned would apply more to Moltres.

takes sr damage - imo that should be the cutoff point to their comparison. sr destroys moltres's ability to switch into stuff at pristine condition and threaten them back. (see my grass-type scenarios again).

Stealth Rock can (and will) be kept off the field by most players using Moltres. Moltres provides an excellent way in itself of stopping Stealth Rock, simply because it's such a major threat.

One way or another, even if someone fails to keep SR off the field, Moltres takes so little damage (or none at all) from the very common attacks it switches into. Venusaur will be dropping to 50% from taking the attacks that Moltres will be taking 20-30% from.

not true. venusaur mostly uses synthesis primarily on defensive walls, while moltres has a fair amount of difficulty using it in front of offensive grass-types like leafeon, sceptile, and even venusaur. against donphan, you aren't going to risk roosting on a predicted eq. the sr is applying too much pressure for moltres to even sweep with a slow approach because it needs to muscle its way through raw power.

Moltres uses Roost on Pokemon like Arcanine, electric-types, Ice-types, etc. Venusaur can only Synthesis because of Sleep Powder, and if Sleep Clause is activated, it's unlikely that you'll get a chance. Also keep in mind that Synthesis has 8 PP to Roosts 16 PP.

@ raikou's counters

i'm not going to bother quoting that, raikou is deemed bl for that very reason. my point has already been made: it has viable counters like venusaur does. it has soft checks (venusaur, rhyperior, etc) but this is purely dependant on the hidden power. hard counters are steelix, registeel, chansey, dugtrio - all 4 are perfectly viable and not out of picture like that quagsire you mentioned.

Venusaur's counters are dangerous Pokemon like Drapion, Moltres, and Arcanine etc. Raikou's counters are...Steelix...

I fail to see how you countered my point there. You didn't address that Chansey (almost undeniably) sucks as a "counter" and Registeel is not an actual counter.

This just puts what an actual BL Pokemon is in perspective. When you compare the two, it makes Venusaur seem....bad. Venusaur is obviously not bad (one of the best Pokemon, actually), but BL it is quite clearly not.

it removes a pokemon temporarily and easens predictions. moltres needs to predict the switch in. one situation: assuming it takes the sr damage, and you use fire blast on an azumarill, you are placed in a tight position. if moltres had sleep powder, it can place azumarill out of commission and can attack it with a respective move or even use roost to heal! leaf storm + sludge bomb gains excellent neutral coverage in the tier, and it only needs two attacking moves and sleep powder to tear stuff apart.

Azumarill can be OHKOed by Hidden Power Grass with Spikes / SR (or without if its one of those max Speed variants..). With Spikes / SR support, there is basically one Pokemon who can reliably switch in (Chansey). Venusaur is not the same. It can sleep and not beat certain Pokemon. It isn't quite powerful enough or quite bulky enough to be BL material. Moltres being equal to Venusaur (at the very worst..) is an example of why.

 

[SJCrew]

sjcrew, in all seriousness, where do you get the nerve to call out eo like that =/.

Dude, get a grip, we're just talking about Pokemon. I was just agreeing with Banedon's point that Eo's reasoning for Venusaur being BL is incongruous with his support for Raikou being UU (which is one of the only two things we've EVER discussed on this forum). If Venusaur can be BL for versatility, unpredictability, and (possibly) taking two Pokemon to beat, then by extension of logic, Raikou is twice the BL Venusaur is. He forced those situations far more often by punishing your opponent by not guessing his set or HP properly and outright threatening to sweep teams as a result.

And let's get real: if I really knew/cared enough about you to call you out, I'd say something a lot worse than "your logic baffles me."

 

[Meru]

Lol. Offensive Moltres is not bulky. SR up and you can't switch in because most Venusaur open with Sludge Bomb. And roosting on Arcanine? GG Thunder Fang. Roost on a Thunderbolt? Go ahead and risk that very likely paralysis.

But go ahead and keep misusing the word counter to describe Moltres for Venusaur. It can revenge, but it's way too risky of a switch in to be considered a counter. The main argument people seem to be making here is that Venusaur is hard to switch in when SR is on the field.

 

[shrang]

And roosting on Arcanine? GG Thunder Fang. Roost on a Thunderbolt? Go ahead and risk that very likely paralysis.

Thunder Fang will do crap if you Roosted before he Thunder Fang (Which for some reason people decide to make their Arcanines slower than Moltres). Forgot Roost removes Flying type I guess??

 

[Meru]

Forgot that Arcanine has the potential to run higher speed I guess??

 

[shrang]

Which for some reason people decide to make their Arcanines slower than Moltres

I did say this.

Anyway, Moltres shouldn't be staying in on Arcanine anyways, unless you happen to be SubRoost, which I would like to add will beat Arcanine (Thunder Fang WILL get Roost stalled, especially if you Toxic the Arcanine on the switch).

 

[SJCrew]

Thunder Fang will do crap if you Roosted before he Thunder Fang (Which for some reason people decide to make their Arcanines slower than Moltres). Forgot Roost removes Flying type I guess??

I always run Adamant Arcanine for a stronger Espeed, which has a fairly high chance of KOing Zam after rocks, and Flare Blitz can 2HKO certain variants of Milotic with a Flash Fire boost.

 

[franky]

alright i'm not going to quote the entire thing because i'm afraid we might run into circles so i'll respond to your stuff in a more concise manner:

@ moltres not being in complete risk to grass-types if you pair it with a spinner like donphan.

okay let's face it, as a sweeper by itself, its not holding its ground and you practically said it needs donphan to function well as a sweeper. (switch into stuff and actually threaten them!). that's the problem, it needs donphan to function properly and for the most of the time venusaur can sweep/support by itself without any staples as a partner.

So with Moltres switching in with full health, it's at essentially no risk from Venusaur or any other Grass-type when switching in.

i already mentioned how the grass resistances does not come in handy anymore ever since special lo got the leek on the analysis. no risk from switching in?

venusaur: threatens moltres with sleep powder and can can sludge bomb to deal 57% - 67.3%. yeah you can switch into leaf storm but earthquake on the other hand - who the hell eq's on the get go anyways?

leafeon: i don't think i'd ever switch in moltres head on because id fear dying from a +2 double edge (102.5% - 120.9%). so your logic with no risk already fails here (and this is without sr too). without a boost, it still takes 51.4% - 60.7%. i don't know where you are going with no risk.

sceptile: ok you can switch into this one since every single sceptile spams leaf storm! however, your no risk logic does not apply here because sceptile can run an sd set and ohko you with rock slide or the rare hp rock to kill you.

torterra: no risk? rock slide ohkoes moltres most of the time and can switch into rock polish and get outsped.

if you notice the new metagame trends, a lot of grass-types are completely dominant now and they have a certain way to beat moltres now. let's face it, the chapter with moltres dominating is long over now because of the new wave of sets these grass-types are using. sd sets are rare from venusaur, leafeon uses double-edge now to ohko moltres, etc.

@ raikou stuff

your main point was that venusaur has viable and legit counters and raikou doesn't. you mentioned quagsire - yeah an absurd counter and completely useless outside of checking raikou. however, i pointed out that it does have viable counters: chansey, registeel, steelix, and dugtrio. these are four solid counters and perfectly viable and can do other things outside of checking raikou. i don't understand how chansey is not a good counter - it has high special defense and can beat raikou with seismic toss + thunder wave or toxic. if you are running the restalk variant you are completely screwed by steelix - but that's beside the point because the main set was cm + 3 attacks or cm + sub. registeel comes in on cm and eq's and thunder wave, done.

last bits:

alright i'm just going to end it here, i don't really enjoy comparing pokemon to justify something as bl material - it really doesn't make sense. moltres and venusaur are two completely different pokemon. are we forgetting venusaur can run a swords dance set? mix set? leech seed? - moltres doesn't have venusaur versatility and moltres' greatest downfall as a special sweeper is that it is one dimensional and it is weak to stealth rock. the statistics speaks for itself, venusaur is more favoured if we are using comparisons. even houndoom gets more usage than moltres.

 

[Meru]

SD Venusaur sets have been falling off the radar since Raikou left the tier. You're no longer pigeonholed into using physical attacks just to break Raikou's Calm Minded Subs.

 

[Heysup]

Lol. Offensive Moltres is not bulky. SR up and you can't switch in because most Venusaur open with Sludge Bomb. And roosting on Arcanine? GG Thunder Fang. Roost on a Thunderbolt? Go ahead and risk that very likely paralysis."

"most Venusaur open with Sludge Bomb". Where's your evidence? (You can't get any...) You would actually risk Sludge Bombing my Milotic after putting you in KO range with Ice Beam? That's almost always a bad move. I'd at least use Sleep Powder or not risk anything and use Leaf Storm.

In any event, I will gladly roost on Arcanine's Thunder Fang (20.6% - 24.3%) and Mesprit / Uxie (etc) Thunderbolts (27.8% - 32.7%). And don't try to pull the "jolly Arcanine" card.

| Arcanine   | Nature       | Adamant          |    51.6 |
| Arcanine   | Nature       | Jolly            |    23.5 |

alright i'm not going to quote the entire thing because i'm afraid we might run into circles so i'll respond to your stuff in a more concise manner:

I will still quote you as a way to organize my thoughts....and it seems you miss my points moreso when you don't quote me.
[/HIDE]

@ moltres not being in complete risk to grass-types if you pair it with a spinner like donphan.

okay let's face it, as a sweeper by itself, its not holding its ground and you practically said it needs donphan to function well as a sweeper. (switch into stuff and actually threaten them!). that's the problem, it needs donphan to function properly and for the most of the time venusaur can sweep/support by itself without any staples as a partner.

It doesn't "need" Donphan, it is just "better" with Donphan. Just how Venusaur doesn't "need" help from Ice/Fire/flying resists, but it is definitely better with them. It's not to the same degree, I'll admit,

i already mentioned how the grass resistances does not come in handy anymore ever since special lo got the leek on the analysis. no risk from switching in?

I should have said "almost no" risk. You're right.

venusaur: threatens moltres with sleep powder and can can sludge bomb to deal 57% - 67.3%. yeah you can switch into leaf storm but earthquake on the other hand - who the hell eq's on the get go anyways?

Sleep Powder is very possibly played around. Anyway if people are plugging "Sludge Bomb opener every time" then Moltres will switch in, survive, and just Roost off the damage / nail something hard. It's still a one-time counter, which is good enough for an offensive powerhouse, at least in my opinion.

leafeon: i don't think i'd ever switch in moltres head on because id fear dying from a +2 double edge (102.5% - 120.9%). so your logic with no risk already fails here (and this is without sr too). without a boost, it still takes 51.4% - 60.7%. i don't know where you are going with no risk.

Yea you're right, I misspoke. I would still like to point out that it can switch in on two of Leafeon's attacks (and obviously revenge it).

sceptile: ok you can switch into this one since every single sceptile spams leaf storm! however, your no risk logic does not apply here because sceptile can run an sd set and ohko you with rock slide or the rare hp rock to kill you.

| Sceptile   | Move         | Rock Slide       |    19.8 |

Meh. I'll take my chances :P.

torterra: no risk? rock slide ohkoes moltres most of the time and can switch into rock polish and get outsped.

I almost never switch Moltres right into Torterra unless I'm "forcing" it to Earthquake / Wood Hammer. So there is "risk", but you can easily make a situation in which that risk is greatly lowered.

if you notice the new metagame trends, a lot of grass-types are completely dominant now and they have a certain way to beat moltres now. let's face it, the chapter with moltres dominating is long over now because of the new wave of sets these grass-types are using. sd sets are rare from venusaur, leafeon uses double-edge now to ohko moltres, etc.

Yet, there have been essentially no (maybe Restalk weezing) adaptations of this kind to deal with Venusaur. A point for you is a point for me. I'll admit Moltres isn't as good as it used to be, but Moltres is still quite great, nonetheless.

My whole point of using Moltres / Venusaur (and of course my other ones) comparisons was to put things in perspective. All of this nonsense such as "Venusaur is broken because it's hard to switch into" makes one really wonder if people are considering how dangerous other Pokemon (like Moltres, Blaziken, Rhyperior, Aggron etc) are to switch into, and frankly, how much easier of a time they have switching in (Moltres on immunity, Rhyperior/Aggron on normal / neutral physical attacks).

@ raikou stuff

your main point was that venusaur has viable and legit counters and raikou doesn't. you mentioned quagsire - yeah an absurd counter and completely useless outside of checking raikou. however, i pointed out that it does have viable counters: chansey, registeel, steelix, and dugtrio. these are four solid counters and perfectly viable and can do other things outside of checking raikou. i don't understand how chansey is not a good counter - it has high special defense and can beat raikou with seismic toss + thunder wave or toxic. if you are running the restalk variant you are completely screwed by steelix - but that's beside the point because the main set was cm + 3 attacks or cm + sub. registeel comes in on cm and eq's and thunder wave, done.

I really hate repeating myself.....

1. Venusaur is not a counter for Raikou (very common misconception)

2. Registeel is a one time check. Once it has less than 75% (without entry hazards!), Raikou actually beats it most of the time.

3. Chansey sucks. [As in it isn't threatening at all, especially in comparison to Arcanine and Moltres for Venusaur]

4. Steelix is good. Raikou has one good counter.

Venusaur has a huge list of offensive checks and counters that are threatening as well as many defensive checks that don't suck (and are actually counters, unlike Registeel for Raikou).

Venusaur's counters are dangerous Pokemon like Drapion, Moltres, and Arcanine etc. Raikou's counters are...Steelix...

I fail to see how you countered my point there. You didn't address that Chansey (almost undeniably) sucks as a "counter" and Registeel is not an actual counter.

And Dugtrio can't switch into Substitute or Hidden Power: (Leftovers HP Grass vs Dugtrio: 88.7% - 104.7%)

Also, Registeel is not a valid defensive "counter" for Raikou because it is a) only a one-time check, and b) is not threatening when it checks Raikou that single time (at best). It needs 75% to actually counter Raikou, and it flat out loses against most Life Orb variants, btw.

last bits:

alright i'm just going to end it here, i don't really enjoy comparing pokemon to justify something as bl material - it really doesn't make sense. moltres and venusaur are two completely different pokemon. are we forgetting venusaur can run a swords dance set? mix set? leech seed? - moltres doesn't have venusaur versatility and moltres' greatest downfall as a special sweeper is that it is one dimensional and it is weak to stealth rock. the statistics speaks for itself, venusaur is more favoured if we are using comparisons. even houndoom gets more usage than moltres.

Well firstly, Moltres has both SubRoost and Roar sets that it uses in addition to the Special Sweeper.

Second, it's not that I'm comparing them to prove it isn't BL, I'm comparing Raikou and Moltres to Venusaur so that people realize the difference between a BL Pokemon and a non-BL Pokemon. The comparison shows that Venusaur is far closer to the same level (even if it's slightly better) as Moltres then it is with Raikou. It shows that Venusaur isn't broken anything if Pokemon like Moltres (and others) are not even being considered. That is all I have to say.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

haven't been on shoddy for uu in a while but..............i was wondering whats the diff between venusaur in uu and breloom in ou?

 

[Banedon]

Yea you're right, I misspoke. I would still like to point out that it can switch in on two of Leafeon's attacks (and obviously revenge it).

Just pointing out that Leafeon has base 95 speed, so if it's running Jolly it can't be revenged by Moltres. It's hard to imagine switching Moltres into Leafeon actually, you can come in on 2/3 of the sweeper set's attacks (Leaf Blade and X-Scissor), but you still can't survive the third (Return / Double Edge), especially if Stealth Rock is up.

PS: if you have some secret tactic to keep Stealth Rock off the field tell me because although I'm trying to use Moltres right now, it keeps getting wtfpwned by Stealth Rock @_@. What do you do to ensure Stealth Rock doesn't go up anyway, or ensure a successful spin?

PPS: Frankly, it's hard to read big blocks of quotes.

EDIT: @above - do a search of this thread (look for individual posts) for the word "breloom". From what I remember, the main argument is that Breloom is very one-dimensional. You pretty much know what moves it's going to run, and you know as well that it's going to be physically based.

 

[Heysup]

PS: if you have some secret tactic to keep Stealth Rock off the field tell me because although I'm trying to use Moltres right now, it keeps getting wtfpwned by Stealth Rock @_@. What do you do to ensure Stealth Rock doesn't go up anyway, or ensure a successful spin?

Taunt Lead. Anti-set up mons (like Moltres, Blaziken, Rhyperior, etc) that will not give your opponent the chance. Taunt NP Mismagius too.

As for spinners, Donphan and Hitmontop are always the best... I mean you just open with Head Smash / Foresight to deal with their Ghost and then spin.

I use Pursuit users as well (like Scyther, Scarf Absol, etc.) to get rid of Ghosts.

EDIT: @above - do a search of this thread (look for individual posts) for the word "breloom". From what I remember, the main argument is that Breloom is very one-dimensional. You pretty much know what moves it's going to run, and you know as well that it's going to be physically based.

The same can be said for Venusaur. You essentially know it is going to Sleep, use Leaf Storm, Sludge Bomb, and Synthesis. Otherwise it's bad...

 

[shrang]

EDIT: @above - do a search of this thread (look for individual posts) for the word "breloom". From what I remember, the main argument is that Breloom is very one-dimensional. You pretty much know what moves it's going to run, and you know as well that it's going to be physically based.

Basically, the reason was "Don't compare OUs to UUs", even though some of the comparisons I made were actually quite relevant, especially with the fact that Venusaur is being nominated for the Support characteristic. If we actually look at it, Breloom shares some very striking similarities with Venusaur: 1) Put a Pokemon to Sleep 2) Blow a big hole into the opponent's team and 3) Has good solid counters (As long as they avoid Sleep). Breloom CAN also run some random sets that could surprise the opponent with stuff like SD/Mach Punch, but that's irrelevant. The fact that Venusaur having a higher Special Attack, Speed and bulk are irrelevant too because what they end up doing is exactly the same thing. Breloom doesn't need the bulk when he can switch into your bulky Water (Not named Offensive Suicune or offensive Gyarados - Just like how Venusaur can switch into your bulky Water not named offensive Milotic, you get what I mean) and put something to sleep, blow a big hole like Venusaur. They are very similar, yet Breloom is not anywhere near being considered to be an OU Suspect.

 

[Bluewind]

I have no idea why people are comparing Moltres to Venusaur, so I'll just leave something here. Neutrality switching into SR and Sleep Powder against shitload of SpAtk, higher speed and a much better STAB. The first of Venusaur's perks is quite obvious, it doesn't limit its switches, and yeah I simply don't give a damn if the Moltres player is big n' tuff n' stuff and stops rocks from staying on the field, not only that doesn't always happen, because some teams simply have a large array of mons that shit all over Donphan/have good prediction using their spinners/have a bulky Rotom; but it also pretty much enforces the use of another mon (or mons, as you have mentioned Taunt leads and Pursuiters so far; and yes it does pretty much enforce its uses or the free switches you're getting on its resistances will go to waste because you'll always be roosting), something Venusaur doesn't. The second, Sleep Powder, I believe I don't have to explain.

 

[Meru]

You propose that Jolly Arcanine isn't a threat because only 25% of people run Jolly Arcanine? You do realize by your logic, 37% of Moltres are Modest, so that makes it even more risky? AKA faulty logic.

And then I like how you say I can't open up with Sludge Bomb because the exact situation you're describing is that the only time my Venusaur is going to get his free attack is when he's at <50% because of a Milotic's Ice Beam. Yeah that's the only time I'm going to get a free attack

And Sceptile not running Rock Slide? If you switch into SD there's a good chance you'll get swept.

And then spinning being "relatively easy"? Aside from prediction wars with Foresight, if someone with a ghost wants to prevent spinning, they will.

EDIT: I meant 37% of Moltres. Dyslexia at it's finest

 

[Heysup]

You propose that Jolly Arcanine isn't a threat because only 25% of people run Jolly Arcanine? You do realize by your logic, 67% of Moltres are Modest, so that makes it even more risky? AKA faulty logic.

See now the difference between my posts and your posts (and the reason that my posts are valid and yours are not) is that I back my opinion up with facts. You simply try to present your opinion as fact, but end up spewing bullshit. For example, you just made up a statistic.

| Moltres    | Nature       | Timid            |    63.0 |
| Moltres    | Nature       | Modest           |    37.0 |

You were off by 30%.

In any event, not only do Jolly Arcanine almost never run Thunder Fang (they are usually Morning Glory / Flare Blitz / ExtremeSpeed / Toxic), but if they did for what ever horrible reason, it wouldn't even 2HKO Moltres: 28.7% - 34.3%.

So please don't try to counter my valid arguments with your inaccurate factless banter.

And then I like how you say I can't open up with Sludge Bomb because the exact situation you're describing is that the only time my Venusaur is going to get his free attack is when he's at <50% because of a Milotic's Ice Beam. Yeah that's the only time I'm going to get a free attack

Did I say that? No.

In any event, you're not paying attention to the situation. Moltres switches into Sludge Bomb, and has 33% (at the very least) left. Moltres Roosts / OHKOes Venusaur (or it switches out).

Venusaur switches into Milotic, and has 50% left. Venusaur stays in to Leaf Storm, doesn't OHKO, and dies to Ice Beam (or it switches out of the Pokemon it's attempting to counter..). There is a very very clear difference in the situations.

And yes, I realize I'm assuming Stealth Rock is off the field. This is quite accurate, because Venusaur will come out early in the game, as will Milotic. Not to mention that keeping Stealth Rock off the field early game is quite easy.

And Sceptile not running Rock Slide? If you switch into SD there's a good chance you'll get swept.

Again, ignoring stats. Approximately 1 in 5 Sceptile run Rock Slide. Swords Dance sets themselves are less common than any other set.

Also fun fact: Moltres survives an unboosted LO Rock Slide from Sceptile: 73.5% - 87.2%

And then spinning being "relatively easy"? Aside from prediction wars with Foresight, if someone with a ghost wants to prevent spinning, they will.

No you're wrong. See how easy that was to refute your argument? You have nothing backing it up. I have presented situations, Pokemon, and logical reasoning as to why it's fairly easy keeping Stealth Rock off the field. Hint: it's not just about Rapid Spinning, you don't need to spin if they never set it up.

Do calculations, use stats, use logic. You're 0/3 in this post.

 

[Meru]

Quote wars about Moltres when we're discussing Venusaur are awesome yo

See now the difference between my posts and your posts (and the reason that my posts are valid and yours are not) is that I back my opinion up with facts. You simply try to present your opinion as fact, but end up spewing bullshit. For example, you just made up a statistic.

| Moltres    | Nature       | Timid            |    63.0 |
| Moltres    | Nature       | Modest           |    37.0 |

You were off by 30%.

In any event, not only do Jolly Arcanine almost never run Thunder Fang (they are usually Morning Glory / Flare Blitz / ExtremeSpeed / Toxic), but if they did for what ever horrible reason, it wouldn't even 2HKO Moltres: 28.7% - 34.3%.

So please don't try to counter my valid arguments with your inaccurate factless banter.

Aside from the very obvious dyslexia and blah-blah statistics, if you encounter a LO Jolly Arcanine with Thunder Fang, your Moltres is screwed over. And you just called Morning Glory a move lolol.

Did I say that? No.

In any event, you're not paying attention to the situation. Moltres switches into Sludge Bomb, and has 33% (at the very least) left. Moltres Roosts / OHKOes Venusaur (or it switches out).

Venusaur switches into Milotic, and has 50% left. Venusaur stays in to Leaf Storm, doesn't OHKO, and dies to Ice Beam (or it switches out of the Pokemon it's attempting to counter..). There is a very very clear difference in the situations.

And yes, I realize I'm assuming Stealth Rock is off the field. This is quite accurate, because Venusaur will come out early in the game, as will Milotic. Not to mention that keeping Stealth Rock off the field early game is quite easy.

Yes let's assume that SR is off the field for Moltres and Milotic is not forced to Recover or doesn't correctly predict Ice Beam when Venusaur switches in. I'm glad we could optimize these supposed situations for your arguments.

Again, ignoring stats. Approximately 1 in 5 Sceptile run Rock Slide. Swords Dance sets themselves are less common than any other set.

Also fun fact: Moltres survives an unboosted LO Rock Slide from Sceptile: 73.5% - 87.2%

Again, optimizing the situation for yourself. Sceptile didn't Swords Dance while Moltres switched in? What did Sceptile do while Moltres was switching in?

No you're wrong. See how easy that was to refute your argument? You have nothing backing it up. I have presented situations, Pokemon, and logical reasoning as to why it's fairly easy keeping Stealth Rock off the field. Hint: it's not just about Rapid Spinning, you don't need to spin if they never set it up.

Do calculations, use stats, use logic. You're 0/3 in this post.

Okay sorry for not thinking the situation is optimized for you where SR never gets up from start to finish my bad. I clearly do not understand logic.

 

[Head Smash]

You propose that Jolly Arcanine isn't a threat because only 25% of people run Jolly Arcanine? You do realize by your logic, 37% of Moltres are Modest, so that makes it even more risky? AKA faulty logic.

A faulty counterpoint as well. The context is the performance of Venusaur vs. Moltres, so Heysup can assume Timid Moltres even if it's not the most common (which it is). Modest Moltres need not factor into the equation at all, regardless of how common it is, because the set he's discussing is obviously Timid LO Moltres as compared to Timid LO Venusaur. On the other hand, assuming Jolly Arcanine wouldn't make sense because it's not common at all in this metagame, so the Moltres that is being discussed doesn't have to worry about it.

EDIT: actually, Jolly is probably more significant than I say in this post. Arcanine is pretty common, so 23% of Arcanine is still like, a Pokemon by itself.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I don't have an opinion on all this, but I've been reading the thread, and I love how all those who support one point of view assume Stealth Rock is up, and those who support the other point of view assume Stealth Rock isn't present.

Not just that, but similar things happen in most debates we have here. I probably do the very same thing when I join in, to be fair.

But there's a reason we're getting nowhere (although I'm finding the reading quite educational).

 

[Heysup]

Quote wars about Moltres when we're discussing Venusaur are awesome yo

If you think this is solely about Moltres, then you obviously haven't been paying attention to the words you're reading. But we already knew that, didn't we?

Aside from the very obvious dyslexia and blah-blah statistics, if you encounter a LO Jolly Arcanine with Thunder Fang, your Moltres is screwed over. And you just called Morning Glory a move lolol.

I hate repeating myself

In any event, not only do Jolly Arcanine almost never run Thunder Fang, but if they did for what ever horrible reason, it wouldn't even 2HKO Moltres: 28.7% - 34.3%.

Your point has been addressed. You actually read the counter argument to your "argument" not 30 seconds before you posted it.

Have fun hitting Moltres for lol damage as it nails you with Air Slash (58.3% - 69.2%).

Let's go over this point one last time so that you stop trying to press it.

- Someone said Moltres can't find time to Roost. I said, of course it can on Random weak attacks including Thunderbolts and Thunder Fang. Argument countered.

- You said "well Arcanine can be faster". I showed you stats showing it most likely isn't. Argument countered. I then showed you calculations showing that even if Arcanine was Jolly, it's Thunder Fang is weak as shit.

- Oh wait you decide to say "well omg it could possibly be Jolly so then you're fucked haha!". Argument was addressed before you posted it.

Yes let's assume that SR is off the field for Moltres and Milotic is not forced to Recover or doesn't correctly predict Ice Beam when Venusaur switches in. I'm glad we could optimize these supposed situations for your arguments.

Again, optimizing the situation for yourself. Sceptile didn't Swords Dance while Moltres switched in? What did Sceptile do while Moltres was switching in?

You call it "optimizing" when it's really "common battle conditions". Once again, your opinion isn't fact. Get over this please.

Now that you're (hopefully) ready to pay attention to logical reasoning:

Firstly, you need to get over this Sceptile thing because it looks dumb when you argue with stats not just about one thing (Arcanine), but two (Sceptile now too). It will likely not have Rock Slide, so who cares. Furthermore, if it does have Rock Slide, it is equally or more likely to use Leaf Blade or Earthquake.

Secondly, Stealth Rock can be stopped early game with ease. All you need to do is run one of the 120392130 Taunt leads. Even late game, Stealth Rock is as likely to be set up as it is to be not on the field. In fact, even less likely to be set up early game in my opinion (yes, opinion, which some people like to perceive as facts in this forum...). Onto the situations. Please read carefully.

Milotic / Venusaur situation: you just need to send in Milotic to scare something out (like Arcanine, for example). After this, Venusaur comes in, and you have your Venusaur / Milotic situation where Milotic Ice Beams Venusaur, but Venusaur cannot OHKO Milotic (though I'm kind of tired of this situation) or Milotic can outspeed Venusaur and 2HKO it.

Moltres / Venusaur situation: you send Venusaur in against Milotic / whatever, and open with Sludge Bomb (even though Milotic can 2HKO you, so you're actually going to use Leaf Storm or Synthesis in the real world). Moltres takes a very impressive chunk of damage from Venusaur, but outspeeds it and force it out / OHKO it.

See the difference. Also please keep in mind, whatever you say about Milotic switching in and taking damage can be reciprocated with Venusaur being forced to Synthesis or Leaf Storm as it will be 2HKOed otherwise.

I clearly do not understand logic.

 

[Meru]

Your calculations are off. LO Arcanine Thunder Fang does well over half of Moltres' health.

And I'm not going to delve into this argument anymore because like someone above said, its devolved into petty arguing of whether or not getting SR up is a plausible battle condition.