Azumarill is good with CB because of its priority--without that I doubt that CB would be a popular choice (I noticed it is currently losing favor, also to the subpunching set). This is again the case with something like Scizor. What's bad about Hariyama is that after one CC its basically a must-switch situation, and you will have to sponge hits before you can pull the CC off in the first place. While I guess this could work IMO it's not very efficient. I guess I'm kind of knocking it before I try it, which is bad behavior. So, I encourage you to try it out and I hope to hear some positive news about it.
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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
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Azumarill is good with CB because of its priority--without that I doubt that CB would be a popular choice (I noticed it is currently losing favor, also to the subpunching set). This is again the case with something like Scizor. What's bad about Hariyama is that after one CC its basically a must-switch situation, and you will have to sponge hits before you can pull the CC off in the first place. While I guess this could work IMO it's not very efficient. I guess I'm kind of knocking it before I try it, which is bad behavior. So, I encourage you to try it out and I hope to hear some positive news about it.
This is why you don't use Close Combat, you use Revenge instead. Hariyama is wasted with the Defense Drops, you should use it's good HP with decent defenses to your advantage.
In many ways, Hariyama was blessed with lower speed. It gets to fire off boosted Paybacks and Revenges nearly every turn. So I don't know why you guys are so keen on using CB Close Combat, when that obviously is not the best way to run him. (Note: That last comment was not aimed at Wyrza.)
Maybe because Revenge does jack to switch ins?
Also, ANY choice pokemon using Close Combat is likely going to have to switch out afterwards-- how is Hariyama any different in this? Fact is that being slow he'll take hits before the defense drops, which imo is a good thing.
Payback was something I mentioned. >.>
Hariyama has Bullet Punch for priority, which imo is better than Mach Punch would be if he had it as 0 immunities is nice on a priority move.
edit: like I said, I'll go check it out, and if it turns out to be a wash, I'll let you guys know. If it turns out to be freaking great-- I'll probably keep that to myself.
Also, ANY choice pokemon using Close Combat is likely going to have to switch out afterwards-- how is Hariyama any different in this? Fact is that being slow he'll take hits before the defense drops, which imo is a good thing.
Payback was something I mentioned. >.>
Hariyama has Bullet Punch for priority, which imo is better than Mach Punch would be if he had it as 0 immunities is nice on a priority move.
edit: like I said, I'll go check it out, and if it turns out to be a wash, I'll let you guys know. If it turns out to be freaking great-- I'll probably keep that to myself.
Someday I'm gonna try out a Guts-activated Belly Drum / Bullet Punch / Close Combat / Ice Punch trick room sweeper. I wonder if I could pull it off. Doubtless there's absolutely nothing in UU that is not OHKO'd by one of those moves. (Okay, Shedinja.)
The downside is, there's only 2 turns of Trick Room, after which he'll have to rely on Bullet Punch alone. Alternatively, if I didn't use trick room I could go 252 Speed, which puts me above most walls, which are (almost) the only things that don't survive what is essentially a +8 Bullet Punch.
The other downside of course is after Belly Drum I only have 5 turns before succumbing to burn damage, or 4 if SR is in play.
The third downside is that it's a hair-brained idea but I might just test it anyway.
The downside is, there's only 2 turns of Trick Room, after which he'll have to rely on Bullet Punch alone. Alternatively, if I didn't use trick room I could go 252 Speed, which puts me above most walls, which are (almost) the only things that don't survive what is essentially a +8 Bullet Punch.
The other downside of course is after Belly Drum I only have 5 turns before succumbing to burn damage, or 4 if SR is in play.
The third downside is that it's a hair-brained idea but I might just test it anyway.
Bullet Punch sucks without STAB, not to mention you only get two turns. Been tried before in OU and probably UU, it sucks. Hariyama usually dies real fast. Agility - Belly Drum would be better and I never could pull that off x_x
Close Combat sucks on Hariyama as it forces you to switch out next turn. You better hope that was a OHKO and they are forcing you out or else you're fucked.
Regardless of all that Hariyama is pretty damn bulky by any stretch of the imagination so I don't know where you're getting this "too frail" bit.
Pinsir's SD Life Orb Close Combat Versus 80 HP / 252 Def Hariyama
766 Atk vs 240 Def & 449 HP (120 Base Power): 356 - 419 (79.29% - 93.32%)
Try and find another Pokémon that can take a hit from Pinsir.
Rampardos's Adamant Choice Band Earthquake Versus 80 / 252 Hariyama
706 Atk vs 240 Def & 449 HP (100 Base Power): 211 - 249 (46.99% - 55.46%)
So please stop talking out your ass about "sweeper slots" and "wall slots" and Hariyama not being bulky enough for one but too slow for another. Hariyama isn't a sweeper, it's a defensive Pokémon that punches you in the face. In the concept of roles, a "tank".
Close Combat sucks on Hariyama as it forces you to switch out next turn. You better hope that was a OHKO and they are forcing you out or else you're fucked.
Ugh, no. "Sweeper slot" and "Wall slot" are arbitrary concepts that are based on the idea that a Pokémon has a cookie cutter role on a team. Teams don't have "x sweepers x walls" with Pokémon that nicely fit into each group. That's not really how Pokémon works at all.
Regardless of all that Hariyama is pretty damn bulky by any stretch of the imagination so I don't know where you're getting this "too frail" bit.
Pinsir's SD Life Orb Close Combat Versus 80 HP / 252 Def Hariyama
766 Atk vs 240 Def & 449 HP (120 Base Power): 356 - 419 (79.29% - 93.32%)
Try and find another Pokémon that can take a hit from Pinsir.
Rampardos's Adamant Choice Band Earthquake Versus 80 / 252 Hariyama
706 Atk vs 240 Def & 449 HP (100 Base Power): 211 - 249 (46.99% - 55.46%)
So please stop talking out your ass about "sweeper slots" and "wall slots" and Hariyama not being bulky enough for one but too slow for another. Hariyama isn't a sweeper, it's a defensive Pokémon that punches you in the face. In the concept of roles, a "tank".
So you just accused me of "talking out my ass", and then agreeing with me. I dont understand the point of that.
If you happened to have trouble understanding what i said, ill try to make it a little more clear.
Hariyama is Offensively outclassed by any other fighting type, and defensively outclassed by many of the Walls. It sits somewhere in the middle, and a CB set with CC wastes its Bulk.
Venusaur, Blastoise, Sandslash, Vileplume, Poliwrath, Feraligatr, Quagsire, Gligar, Hitmontop, Milotic, Dusclops, Wormadam-G, Gastrodon & Spiritomb, in Pokedex order. That’s 14 more. I fail to see what point you’re making there.
But I do agree that Hariyama is a criminally underrated tank in the new UU. In fact it may well be the best physical tank around atm, in terms of overall hit-taking ability and average power output in return. Pure Fighting is also a great all-round defensive type, up their with Water imo (just look at Poliwrath’s defensive utility!), and Thick Fat just makes it even better.
So in terms of tanking, a role that relies on an offensive/defensive balance, wouldn't you agree that Hariyama is perhaps not outclassed by anything in UU?
About Regigigas, here's what I said about it more than a year ago:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=882768&postcount=1356
Of course, that set was for the old UU; I don't know if people can salvage it for the new UU.
But I'm encouraged that people that are claiming to use it with success are using Substitute and passing Reflect/Light Screen to it. Seems like my theorymon isn't bad.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=882768&postcount=1356
Of course, that set was for the old UU; I don't know if people can salvage it for the new UU.
But I'm encouraged that people that are claiming to use it with success are using Substitute and passing Reflect/Light Screen to it. Seems like my theorymon isn't bad.
Hariyama isnt really comparable to any other pokemon (Adv Snorlax is the best comparison, even DP Machamp), is what im saying. It is outclassed as an Offensive threat, and Outclassed Definsively as a Wall (barring Blaziken). Hariyama has its OWN unique role in UU. It is at home with a Bulky attacking set, such as Sub-Punch, Cross Chop/Payback/Restalk, etc. So it is not outclassed in UU doing its OWN role, it is just outclassed on either ends of the spectrum.
Offensive<-Outclassed----Hariyama at its best----Outclassed->Defensive
That diagram shows what im trying to say, if it still remains unclear.
Mainly walls, and some Stat-uppers.
For example:
-Chansey(Though, it has a free Turn)
-Registeel
-Steelix
-Regice
-Spiritomb(as long as it has WW)
-Mismagius
-Houndoom
-Blaziken(most)
-Rampardos
-Walrein
-etc.
Hariyama in UU is kinda like Vaporeon in OU in that it provides cool resists to junk like Ice and Fire, has huge HP and a bolstered low defense, and has high Attack to hit junk as well as take hits. By your standards, Vaporeon shouldn't be used in OU, because:
Starmie<-Offensive----Vaporeon at its best---Defensive->Suicune
Obviously, since you're using the outmoded "this shit must sweep, this shit must wall" belief, you're being hampered by an extremely old-school belief structure. Newsflash: This is DP, where pretty much every role-based teambuilding style has been rendered obsolete. "I need something that can resist fire/ice/bug/rock/dark attacks and paralyze stuff/break screens/own clefable." Hariyama, fool. Obviously it has a niche in the UU metagame, and it is very good at doing things in that niche. It is a TANK, much like Swampert is a tank in OU. It's meant to take hits and put out hits with equal effectiveness, and it does that VERY well.
Starmie<-Offensive----Vaporeon at its best---Defensive->Suicune
Obviously, since you're using the outmoded "this shit must sweep, this shit must wall" belief, you're being hampered by an extremely old-school belief structure. Newsflash: This is DP, where pretty much every role-based teambuilding style has been rendered obsolete. "I need something that can resist fire/ice/bug/rock/dark attacks and paralyze stuff/break screens/own clefable." Hariyama, fool. Obviously it has a niche in the UU metagame, and it is very good at doing things in that niche. It is a TANK, much like Swampert is a tank in OU. It's meant to take hits and put out hits with equal effectiveness, and it does that VERY well.
Then I can see Sub Punch being a viable strategy on Hariyama, given its base 120 attack and getting STAB on Focus Punch, which is more powerful than Close Combat and doesn't have defence drops.
I cant tell if you're agreeing with me, or not. I said this:
Assuming the "you're" is aimed at me.......Why do you agree with me (even use my diagram as an example), why are you saying im wrong in the beginning of your paragraph, then say im right again at the end? Window Wiper Syndrome :P.
Err.....What?
Using the most Specially Defensive Hariyama(252/252 Careful):
Standard 44 SAtk Slowbro's Surf:
247 Atk vs 240 Def & 492 HP (95 Base Power): 106 - 126 (21.54% - 25.61%)
That doesnt usually break the sub, Correct. But now....
Standard 120 Atk Steelix's Earthquake:
236 Atk vs 156 Def & 492 HP (100 Base Power): 163 - 193 (33.13% - 39.23%)
That does more than 25% ^_^.
The Most Physically Defensive one is just Vice Versa.
So yes they can break the subs, unless there is some middle ground which i dont beleive there could be, seeing as with Max/Max it still doesnt keep its sub 100% of the time. Keep in mind, Many Slowbros are using Psychic now as Roserade increases in popularity.
Speaking of Analysis, when do you think we will be allowed to post them? (I have MixedPriority Blaziken and Specs Blaziken written up (with some help), among others (UUtility Cloyster))
No you can't do both at the same time. It'll be explained all when we finish writing it up.
He showed your graph to show why it was wrong. He said the idea that something needs to be on an extreme end of a spectrum to be useful is bullshit. He didn't agree with you at all.
He showed your graph to show why it was wrong. He said the idea that something needs to be on an extreme end of a spectrum to be useful is bullshit. He didn't agree with you at all.
Now you are just making shit up/putting words in mouth. Re-read my posts, How is it still not clear?
He basically repeated what i said, but in a hostile manner towards me for some reason.
I said Hariyama is GOOD when its used for its Bulk AND Offense, but its outclassed when its geared to Purely offense, or purely Defense. Sigh @ reading comprehension.
I didnt say in ANY of my posts that a pokemon had to be on an extreme end to be useful, or anything of that sort.
In fact here is a list of things i have said:
Please tell me where i said "Hariyama is useless, as are all Pokemon who arent Walls or Fast Offensive Sweepers" in the slightest bit?
You also said this back on the last page:
How does one interpret that? You may not have meant that the way it reads, but I'd appreciate if you didn't get all pissy at people who are simply drawing the most sensible conclusion from your posts. Although that one does seem to contradict with your later posts, but that's not a good thing for your credibility either.
How does one interpret that? You may not have meant that the way it reads, but I'd appreciate if you didn't get all pissy at people who are simply drawing the most sensible conclusion from your posts. Although that one does seem to contradict with your later posts, but that's not a good thing for your credibility either.
Random input...
>Seems like there ALOT less UU battlers now a' days
>Marowack is a tremendous wall-breaker even with out Trick Room
>Chansey is a incredible wall
>Lack of suspects are being used on UU ladder
>I recommend using Toxic on your spinners
>I've seen more Sand teams than Hail teams
>nNU is going to be interesting
>Omastar is a really could Spiker
>Seems like there ALOT less UU battlers now a' days
>Marowack is a tremendous wall-breaker even with out Trick Room
>Chansey is a incredible wall
>Lack of suspects are being used on UU ladder
>I recommend using Toxic on your spinners
>I've seen more Sand teams than Hail teams
>nNU is going to be interesting
>Omastar is a really could Spiker
I can tell you right now why there are less UU battlers.
Everyone is waiting for the suspects to be removed from the ladder, some people have started using non-suspect teams, but still I think it will become the hot place to be once the suspects are removed.
The process of creating UU is stalled right now. I really hope the ratings get reset soon and we can get this going.
Just a note about Omastar, it's a great switch into a Typholosion's Eruption because of it's 4x resist, which given how common it is, gives you plenty of oppurtunities to set up spikes.
It still falls to Focus Punch or Earthquake, and with good prediction, if one has already seen Omastar, there goes your Typhlosion counter. But then again, you could say the same argument for any of Typhlosion's counters. It's a really devastating Pokémon, but needs good prediction to flourish, more so than other Pokémon like Raikou or Gallade, who require the opponent to predict more than the user.
I'm hoping for the same thing. There's really no point to beating people over and over again with the same damn hail team, especially when it won't even count on my rating when it gets reset. And there's no point to testing another team either, since the pool of usable pokemon is about to get smaller. And there's no point of using a suspectless team when I'm likely to find at least one suspect on everyone else's team.
Mmmm... are they going to reset the ratings before performing the vote towards suspect, or can you start playing now?
Man, the rest of the argument was about Hariyama's Walling ability. And so, yes IMO, its only selling point as a Wall is being a good LO Blaziken counter.
Taking things out of context is "not a good thing for your credibility either".
Im getting "pissy"(if thats what you want to call "annoyed") at people because its fairly obvious, through my explanations over and over again, what im trying to say. And people just cant take the time to read my posts, yet respond with hostility often saying the exact same thing i did.
For example:
This(above) was someone replying to me(below) saying:
See why its getting frusterating? They effectively said the same thing as me (look at the diagram ffs, lol).
That is frusterating, to say the least.
Actually, Earthquake an Focus Punch dont even 2HKO Omastar.
Scarflosion Focus Punch vs Omastar:
240 Atk vs 383 Def & 344 HP (150 Base Power): 136 - 160 (39.53% - 46.51%)
Earthquake does even less. So, Tyhplosion needs to hit it with HP grass/electric/ground.
And im also one of the people waiting for the suspects to be removed (cough..hurry up....cough...).
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