np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[BurningMan]

The question, really, is this. Is a particular rain sweeper broken, while others aren't? Or does Politoed's support make several pokemon too much for the metagame? The thing about Rain being arguably broken in UU in Gen IV was that the likes of Ludicolo, Kabutops and Gorebyss were ALL so powerful under Rain and banning one of them would not have made a serious impact.

exactly you would have to ban them all wich isn't justifiable since they aren't "broken" by themself, but because Politoeds support boosts them so much that they get much more powerful than they would be without. This is why i would say IF we are going to ban anything it should be Politoed (or manaphy, because its imo the only thing that comes close to being broken under rain everything else can be handled by quite some things not to mention how good Nattorei works against rain).

 

[TheValkyries]

The question, really, is this. Is a particular rain sweeper broken, while others aren't? Or does Politoed's support make several pokemon too much for the metagame? The thing about Rain being arguably broken in UU in Gen IV was that the likes of Ludicolo, Kabutops and Gorebyss were ALL so powerful under Rain and banning one of them would not have made a serious impact.

Well, answer your own question. Do you think Ludicolo is broken in 5th gen OU? What about Kabutops or Kingdra? Perhaps Armaldo or Omastar? How about Manaphy?

Are they all honestly broken? Or is it just a few, if any? With all the Sand and Sun running around, it's hard for me to think that a weather sweeper can be broken, unless they can still do well without their weather.

 

[SlimMan]

I've actually found weather to be quite manageable and underwhelming this Gen. This implies one of two things:

1) You guys are all over-reacting
2) I've played a lot of terrible players

I'm not sure which it is though.

 

[Arc Tech]

I've found it manageable also, but over-centralizing- you pretty much have to run your own weather or nattorie. And if it's your own weather, whoever's weather-user survives longer, wins.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

The only weather sweeper that even deserves testing is Tail Glow Manaphy. And I'm not even sure that it's broken.

Doryuuzu and Kabutops can't take a hit while Kingdra is lacks is unable to boost itself more than +1 at a time and is easily walled by Empoleon/Nattorei.

Garchomp lacks the speed necessary to sweep without a Choice Scarf, but then he is unable to boost. Landlos is too slow to sweep without Rock Polish, but then he can't utilize Swords Dance.

All of the main weather sweepers have weaknesses which most good teams should be able to exploit anyway. I question Manaphy because it has the slowness issue of Landlos and Garchomp, but is able to insta-heal itself. Regardless, I disagree with all the "weather is broken" posts.

You must not have been playing recently. Tail glow manaphy can sweep any pokemon, and that includes those that resist it. It only takes 2 tail glows for it to become godly, and thats not hard since you can tail glow on a force switched.
Chomp is still devestating, and several pokemon who are faster typically aren't strong enough to kill him, and if played in the sand, they may not be able to touch him, i missed 2 ice beams against him today (not that it bothered me i used chomp back at him)

Dory and Kabutops are fast so its pretty hard to hit them while they are sweeping your team, so unless you made a stall team an average team will have trouble with them.

I still stand on WEATHER (rain, sand, sun, hail) is overcentralizing in itself, and should be looked into deeply. Everyone is too accepting of it to really see that weather is a big deal. Weather isn't broken as in if you don't run weather you will lose, its just so powerful you have to dedicate certain things to stopping them, or run a weather team yourself. Outside of manaphy, none of the weather pokemon is that threatening outside of the weather so i don't think they need to be banned.

 

[SlimMan]

I've found it manageable also, but over-centralizing- you pretty much have to run your own weather or nattorie. And if it's your own weather, whoever's weather-user survives longer, wins.

But it makes for good long-term thinking and strategy about how to kill theirs and keep yours alive. It requires thought and skill, most of the time. I actually kind of like that.

 

[CTNC]

Doryuuzu and Kabutops can't take a hit while Kingdra is lacks is unable to boost itself more than +1 at a time and is easily walled by Empoleon/Nattorei.

Careful Roopushin With no Attack EVs and no Bulk Ups does 50% to Doryuuzu With Mach Punch. I'd call that taking a hit, even though Unboosted Earthquake fails to 2HKO 252/0 No Bulk Up Roopushin.

Edit at below: Good Point... I just had to point that out...

 

[SlimMan]

Careful Roopushin With no Attack EVs and no Bulk Ups does 50% to Doryuuzu With Mach Punch. I'd call that taking a hit, even though Unboosted Earthquake fails to 2HKO Roopushin.

Almost every single Roobushin I've encountered has run Max Atk and Adamant.
Maybe you've faced a lot of Careful Roobushin, but I haven't.

And in your example, Doryuuzu still dies because it cannot 2HKO Roobushin.

 

[Mazinger]

I still stand on WEATHER (rain, sand, sun, hail) is overcentralizing in itself, and should be looked into deeply. Everyone is too accepting of it to really see that weather is a big deal. Weather isn't broken as in if you don't run weather you will lose, its just so powerful you have to dedicate certain things to stopping them, or run a weather team yourself. Outside of manaphy, none of the weather pokemon is that threatening outside of the weather so i don't think they need to be banned.

First of all, I think treating weather as one kind of team, when it's actually 4 (well I guess hail isn't that important), Is a mistake. Just because one weather may be broken (I don't think so) the other ones aren't automatically broken too. And saying that "we're too accepting of it" is really the wrong way to handle tiering; it's not like we try to find things which we can ban just because they're very good. And of course you have to dedicate parts of your team to beat weather, just like you have to dedicate parts of your team to beat Roobushin, Garchomp, Salamence etc.. Really, weather is not that bad, except for Manaphy.

By the way, I didn't have that many problems with weather, Deoxys-A, Darkrai and Skymin, without adapting my team to anything at all. I'm currently sitting at 1304 rating, which could be a lot higher if I didn't get constantly haxed. (I've used it since about 1 month on beta, started with deoxys-A, Skymin, Darkai and Manaphy banned and weather not yet released)

 

[dragonmaster951753]

First of all, I think treating weather as one kind of team, when it's actually 4 (well I guess hail isn't that important), Is a mistake. Just because one weather may be broken (I don't think so) the other ones aren't automatically broken too. And saying that "we're too accepting of it" is really the wrong way to handle tiering; it's not like we try to find things which we can ban just because they're very good. And of course you have to dedicate parts of your team to beat weather, just like you have to dedicate parts of your team to beat Roobushin, Garchomp, Salamence etc.. Really, weather is not that bad, except for Manaphy.

By the way, I didn't have that many problems with weather, Deoxys-A, Darkrai and Skymin, without adapting my team to anything at all. I'm currently sitting at 1304 rating, which could be a lot higher if I didn't get constantly haxed. (I've used it since about 1 month on beta, started with deoxys-A, Skymin, Darkai and Manaphy banned and weather not yet released)

Well, 1 with the team i run now, i haven't dedicated anyone to specifically countering anything. Its a test to see what really stands out. So far, nothing has been able to just run over my team easily.
I think all forms of weather are broken in their own ways. Rain and Sandstorm being really powerful, while Sun and hail are still good but require slightly more planning. But you did exactly what i said, you are accepting of the weather and just decided to make parts of your team to counter such a threat, that is what i am saying to avoid. I really think we should have a test period of playing a metagame with absoluting no weather pokemon/attacks (sandstorm etc).
Your team must be really good, by any chance are you running a stall team, cause most offensive teams go down to well strategized stalling. I honestly can't see even really good offensive teams without having some sort of weakness to one of the mentioned things here.

 

[Mazinger]

And my point is that banning something to avoid dealing with it is wrong. The only things a metagame without weather would prove is that it's much different, which is obvious seeing what an important part of the metagame weather is.#

My team consists of scizor, roobushin, gengar, heatran, gyarados and Nattorei. Just a balanced team wiht emphasis on entry hazards, nothing special.

 

[capefeather]

The problem that I ultimately have with the anti-weather argument is this:

Weather is really centralizing to the point that people feel it is a standard and forget that it wasn't always there

Basically, you're using the past generation to justify your claims of this generation being "too broken" or whatever you want to call it. There's no reason that anything from previous generations (that is not required to make the game a rich competitive one) should carry over to this generation. So what if you require weather or several weather counters to play this iteration of OU? You're talking about four types of support, totaling probably eight or more playstyles, and you're bunching them all into one phenomenon.

If your weather is crumpling to another weather just because your weather got KOed, well, maybe you should not have your entire team depending on the weather to function, or maybe you should do the opposite and make your team use the weather as efficiently as possible ("super-aggro weather offense"?) and just work on your long-term planning to do that. Actually, either way, the presence of weather encourages long-term thinking. It also makes the short term seem unbearably broken, but in the end the long term is there.

This is a great example of trying to ban too much. Could you really explain how the metagame would be improved if we banned weather, even if we ended up testing it?

 

[dragonmaster951753]

The problem that I ultimately have with the anti-weather argument is this:



Basically, you're using the past generation to justify your claims of this generation being "too broken" or whatever you want to call it. There's no reason that anything from previous generations (that is not required to make the game a rich competitive one) should carry over to this generation. So what if you require weather or several weather counters to play this iteration of OU? You're talking about four types of support, totaling probably eight or more playstyles, and you're bunching them all into one phenomenon.

If your weather is crumpling to another weather just because your weather got KOed, well, maybe you should not have your entire team depending on the weather to function, or maybe you should do the opposite and make your team use the weather as efficiently as possible ("super-aggro weather offense"?) and just work on your long-term planning to do that. Actually, either way, the presence of weather encourages long-term thinking. It also makes the short term seem unbearably broken, but in the end the long term is there.

This is a great example of trying to ban too much. Could you really explain how the metagame would be improved if we banned weather, even if we ended up testing it?

I don't have a problem with fighting them, i simply think its still too overcentralizing. I have no trouble going against their teams, dory in the sand isn't a threat to me at all. But thats what i mean, everyone is always accepting of it and taking it as the standard. I am not saying lets ban it because are banning everything else, just to take anther look at it. More important things darkrai, shaymin-s, manaphy, and inconsistent needs banning WAY before weather does

 

[ensoriki]

I don't have a problem with fighting them, i simply think its still too overcentralizing. I have no trouble going against their teams, dory in the sand isn't a threat to me at all. But thats what i mean, everyone is always accepting of it and taking it as the standard. I am not saying lets ban it because are banning everything else, just to take anther look at it. More important things darkrai, shaymin-s, manaphy, and inconsistent needs banning WAY before weather does

Theres no reason not to be accepting of it.
It's not even overcentralizing, Sand was infinite before, and so was Hail, but suddenly rain & sun are infinite and it's overcentralizing.
We should've started out with no clauses.

 

[SlimMan]

I don't have a problem with fighting them, i simply think its still too overcentralizing. I have no trouble going against their teams, dory in the sand isn't a threat to me at all. But thats what i mean, everyone is always accepting of it and taking it as the standard. I am not saying lets ban it because are banning everything else, just to take anther look at it. More important things darkrai, shaymin-s, manaphy, and inconsistent needs banning WAY before weather does

What if it becomes the standard. Would that necessarily be a bad thing?

 

[sax king]

With the weather argument, we basically have to answer one question: Is the surge of weather teams simply a fad, or is this truly the metagame we will be playing in?

The weather metagame is a fad: This could very well be an example of extreme overhyping a certain playstyle. Rain teams can be beaten without too much effort, and there is no reason to ban the weather inducers right now. There's nothign too broken about them, and we simply have to withstand the overcentralizing for a bit longer. There is no reason to ban any of them currently, as soon enough rain and sand won't be so prevalent.

Weather will be a part of our metagame: As I said before, there is nothing too broken about these teams, and there are simple ways to counter each. The only problem is the overcentralizing of the metagame. If every team needs a designated Sand counter, a designated Rain counter, and a designated Sun counter, then weather has completely taken the metagame by storm (hahahahahaha). If every team is either weather based or based on countering weather teams, then weather has clearly affected our metagame in a negative way. This is clearly overcentralizing, and these users must be banned not for being broken but for overcentralizing.

So essentially, if the metagame is still in the process of evolving and drastically changing and taking shape, the weather inducers can stay. But if the metagame has stabilized and will remain like this unless there are significant bans, then the weather inducers need to go.

After I've said that, I think we need to ban abilities instead of pokemon. Politoed itself is not why people use it. It's because of Drizzle. There's no reason to ban mediocre pokemon like Politoed and Ninetales just because of their abilities. We need to ban the abilities, not the pokemon. People are making the argument to ban Octillery. Octillery itself is a Trick Room sweeper and a good baton pass recipient. Inconsistent is why people think Octillery is broken. If Pachirsu had Inconsistent, people would argue that it is broken. There is no reason to ban Octillery, there are only reasons to ban Inconsistent. Many argue that this results in a slippery slope of ability banning, but I say only if we make it so. If we simply are careful what abilities we ban, it won't erupt into a massive banning spree. We simply only need to ban those that are clearly and undeniably broken, such as Inconsistent.

 

[Plusle]

To be honest, octillery should not be banned. I've used Glaile just as effectively in Dw and Bibarel and WiFi and they are not much better. I also tried Snorunt in Lc. Without the abilitiy, these pokemon are average, but with they are amazing. The abilities are Over Centralizing forcing you to carry Toxicroak. We need to minimise bans and ban Inconsistent not Octillery. Besides if Octillery and Bibarel were banned, people would use Bidoof.

 

[TheValkyries]

If every team is either weather based or based on countering weather teams, then weather has clearly affected our metagame in a negative way. This is clearly overcentralizing, and these users must be banned not for being broken but for overcentralizing.

So essentially, if the metagame is still in the process of evolving and drastically changing and taking shape, the weather inducers can stay. But if the metagame has stabilized and will remain like this unless there are significant bans, then the weather inducers need to go.

After I've said that, I think we need to ban abilities instead of pokemon. Politoed itself is not why people use it. It's because of Drizzle. There's no reason to ban mediocre pokemon like Politoed and Ninetales just because of their abilities. We need to ban the abilities, not the pokemon. People are making the argument to ban Octillery. Octillery itself is a Trick Room sweeper and a good baton pass recipient. Inconsistent is why people think Octillery is broken. If Pachirsu had Inconsistent, people would argue that it is broken. There is no reason to ban Octillery, there are only reasons to ban Inconsistent. Many argue that this results in a slippery slope of ability banning, but I say only if we make it so. If we simply are careful what abilities we ban, it won't erupt into a massive banning spree. We simply only need to ban those that are clearly and undeniably broken, such as Inconsistent.

No, god no. On so many levels no, to all of this.

What audacity do you have to determine an impact on the metagame is negative at this point, when we've only had one metagame so far? What are you comparing it to? Further, how could you possibly know whether the removal of weather will enhance the competitive play? There is no control group here, you simply cannot be making assumptions like that off the bat.

On the issue of banning abilities I strongly disagree. An ability is merely an attribute of a Pokemon as a whole. If the ability on a Pokemon is broken, then by extension the Pokemon is broken and requires a ban. Taking up a policy where we have the option of banning parts of a Pokemon, and not the whole, is essentially just gimping the Pokemon until it's no longer broken. That's just bad policy, because that does put us on a very slippery slope no matter how much we pretend we could be smart about it.

 

[CTNC]

On the issue of banning abilities I strongly disagree. An ability is merely an attribute of a Pokemon as a whole. If the ability on a Pokemon is broken, then by extension the Pokemon is broken and requires a ban. Taking up a policy where we have the option of banning parts of a Pokemon, and not the whole, is essentially just gimping the Pokemon until it's no longer broken. That's just bad policy, because that does put us on a very slippery slope no matter how much we pretend we could be smart about it.

...

You want Bibarel to be Uber? Ban Some Abilities! Slippery Slope? Maybe. Worth Doing? Yes. Inconsistent needs to go! The dedicated Inconsistent teams use Ingrain + Sub Pass Smergal on Non Dream World and on Dream World they can drop Baton Pass. Its too quick for Roar/Whirlwind or Toxic Spikes... It's even worse when they have Vaporeon pass Aqua Ring to increase recovery to 3/16. I'm a noob but I know an Expert would have been pwnd by that team...

@Below :D

 

[Arc Tech]

We would only implement blanket bans upon abilities, not ban an ability on just one pokemon. We would not just ban inconsistent on Octillery, we would ban it on all pokemon.
You know what I feel like a broken record, there was a thread on this a while back. Let me see if I can find it and sort out my and others' more important posts on it.

Here's the most relevant things about whether it will open a slippery slope (a direct quote from me and then a bit of paraphrasing to make it more concise and relevant):

A simple rule only requires that a pokemon set (i.e. a pokemon with an ability, 4 moves, etc.) only meet one condition to be banned. A rule for banning a pokemon only has one condition: that the pokemon is the pokemon it names. A rule for banning a move has one condition: that the pokemon knows the move. A rule for banning an ability would only have one condition: that the pokemon has the ability. A pokemon set meeting the condition of any of the rules is banned.

As such, we would have to ban the ability on all pokemon, not just one. You could not chose to gimp a pokemon, using only simple rules, because you have to do blanket bans on all of it's moves, etc, which are obviously not broken and would hurt other pokemon.

Creating non-simple riles would also be entirely arbitrary, since it is often a combination of factors that make a pokemon Uber. For example, in previous gens, to make wobbuffet non-uber, would you remove from it shadow tag, encore, or countercoat?

Banning inconsistent would only be one condition (that it has the ability inconsistent) and therefore simple. It would not open up the slippery slope to nerfing pokemon arbitrarily, because those would be non-simple rules, while we are only implementing a simple rule.

 

[dragonmaster951753]

No, god no. On so many levels no, to all of this.

What audacity do you have to determine an impact on the metagame is negative at this point, when we've only had one metagame so far? What are you comparing it to? Further, how could you possibly know whether the removal of weather will enhance the competitive play? There is no control group here, you simply cannot be making assumptions like that off the bat.

On the issue of banning abilities I strongly disagree. An ability is merely an attribute of a Pokemon as a whole. If the ability on a Pokemon is broken, then by extension the Pokemon is broken and requires a ban. Taking up a policy where we have the option of banning parts of a Pokemon, and not the whole, is essentially just gimping the Pokemon until it's no longer broken. That's just bad policy, because that does put us on a very slippery slope no matter how much we pretend we could be smart about it.

There is nothing wrong with banning an ability. It was fine to ban the moves double team and minimize so they wouldn't make the game too luck based, thats basically what is happening here. Everyone knows where to draw the line at, but it is quite obvious inconsistent is well... inconsistent! The fact that we made ONE ban, putting Mewtwo and mew to ubers back in R/B/Y according to your logic would have been a slippery slope because nothing was banned before that but it was necessary, just like every other ban made after it. That is why we are here, to maturely discuss what needs banning and what doesn't, and if the arguement isn't good enough to get something banned, then it won't get banned. Inconsistent is a broken/ridiculous ability that doesn't deserve a place in the metagame, if you still need reasons look at the multiple articles people kept saying about it on why it should be banned.

Weather pokemon aren't a big deal just weather itself. I still feel like everyone just adapted to the weather since it has been out for so long (Gen 2, and lets be real you can't drop all previous knowledge about pokemon games, the past is the past but it was still an experience). Rain and Sun do have new people constantly holding it, but that didn't change my opinion on it, if i could have been there to stop it back in Gen 4 i would have. I don't think politoed, TT, hippo, or ninetails needs to be ban, i just want people to really analyze what all weather does to the metagame. I am not saying to ban weather, just look at how teams must be created in order to prevent each weather from running them over.

 

[Aqueos]

Front page of Smogon says that Meloetta is banned in Pokemon World Championships. I was unaware that that carries over to the simulator.

Shows what I know. Lol that I'm trying to vote, but didn't even know that much.

Not the Pokemon world championships, but the fact that standard is wifi rules. If you can't get it legally in game you can't use it.

 

[sax king]

No, god no. On so many levels no, to all of this.

What audacity do you have to determine an impact on the metagame is negative at this point, when we've only had one metagame so far? What are you comparing it to? Further, how could you possibly know whether the removal of weather will enhance the competitive play? There is no control group here, you simply cannot be making assumptions like that off the bat.

On the issue of banning abilities I strongly disagree. An ability is merely an attribute of a Pokemon as a whole. If the ability on a Pokemon is broken, then by extension the Pokemon is broken and requires a ban. Taking up a policy where we have the option of banning parts of a Pokemon, and not the whole, is essentially just gimping the Pokemon until it's no longer broken. That's just bad policy, because that does put us on a very slippery slope no matter how much we pretend we could be smart about it.

When I talk about having a negative impact on the metagame, I'm talking about creating a metagame that isn't enjoyable. When every single team is exactly the same, the metagame just simply isn't fun. Playing no longer takes skill and is simply "Kay I think I'll use a Politoed/Hippowdon, and a Kingdra/Doryuuzu, and a..." Smogon's goal is to create a metagame that is both enjoyable and competitive, and what we have now simply isn't either. It isn't enjoyable because I might as well play the exact same team over and over again. It isn't competitive because any idiot can take a weather inducer and an anubuser and still get fairly good results.

Furthermore, banning abilities on pokemon is in no way a bad policy. By not banning abilities, we're labelling certain pokemon as simply broken. What many users are saying is that Bibarel the pokemon is broken and Octillery the pokemon is broken. This simply isn't true. Inconsistent is undeniably what makes these pokemon broken. Yes, it is an attribute of these pokemon, yet it is the attribute that is broken. As I mentioned before, an Inconsistent Pachirsu is just as broken as an Inconsistent Arceus. Pachirsu is not broken, it's Inconsistent that makes it such a terror. Say for example, Octillery learns a move that automatically makes four of the opponent's pokemon faint. Should we ban Octillery, or should we just ban that move? Clearly that move is why Octillery is so broken. The Inconsistent arguments really have little to do with the actual move, just with the ability. Even if it is just gimping a pokemon until it is no longer broken, that is not necessarily a bad thing. We are not creating an entirely new pokemon, we are just removing an aspect of both Octillery, Smeargle, and Bibarel that makes them all broken. If I need to change a pokemon just to make a desirable metagame, I'll do it. There is nothing wrong with changing just one part a broken pokemon in order to create a good metagame. We can be smart about doing this as well. We do not need to wave the banhammer at everything that isn't Truant or Slow Start. We just need to be sensible about it. Voting is usually closed to players without a certain score anyway, and I trust the players with the higher scores to be sensible about their voting. These are the players that know that Sand Throw is not as bad as some say and that Shadow Tag isn't the worst thing ever made. Everyone here is capable of making intelligent choices and not going "OMG ENCOURAGE TAUROS SWEPT MY TEAM LET'S BAN IT!".

Just my $0.02

 

[Baldafor]

Evasion itself is something that needs to be tested, not the ability Inconsistent. In fact, we really need to start over from the beginning with the entire banning process to ensure we aren't just banning things because they are the next most "broken" thing.

Inconsistent, if banned, should also not be a banned ability for a pokemon. All pokemon with the ability should be banned. The ability is the problem, sure, but essentially we are not able to use that pokemon in its best or most broken form, so why bother? There is not a single pokemon that has 2 abilities that are both broken enough to classify them as uber regardless of the pokemon that uses it.

Sure, Octillery is useful as a baton pass receiver, but Inconsistent allows it to be self-sufficient in sweeping the opposing team. Why even use it at all if you can't use it at its best?

 

[Wafflez]

Echoing what some of the other posters said.Blanket Banning Inconsistence is not the same as gimping a pokemon because your just taking out one unconditional factor from every one of them with the said ability.Nothing more nothing less.Simple as that.

I dont see the reason why people are complaining about rain either.Just because you dont see it 24/7 before does not mean that its wrong if you see it now.Rain is a perfectly viable strategy which also has a fair share of counters.Its effectiveness is also limited due to the large majority of opposing weather teams.If you are going to make some kind of oath to yourself that you aren't going to keep a counter on your team and then play dumb then thats your problem.Its Manaphy who is clearly the most broken abuser not the rain itself.

Besides Weather vs Weather is a really enjoyable match and as others said requires good long term prediction and risk mannagement.You have to know who to sacrifice and who to keep alive at the right time.And...Sand is 10x better then rain anyway so "Fuk Dat Sht" L:.