np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[Arc Tech]

Fewer Pokémon having it means that it's actually possible to look at each case in depth and respectively ban the Pokémon if needs be. On the contrary, we couldn't do that with Double Team for way too many Pokémon had it and therefore banning them all would be ridiculous which is partially why it is exceptional. When something is broken, you don't ban part of that brokenness to weaken it and make him usable, you simply ban the Pokémon. Why wouldn't it be the same for Octillery? Plus, Inconsistent isn't as strong as you say it is; the Pokémons that get it are mediocre and wouldn't benefit so much from that ability that it would make them broken.

@ Above Way more than that get Double Team.

Ok then, what if half the metagame got inconsistent and we found it broken? Would you agree to ban inconsistent rather than the pokemon then?

Yes, but their effect being nearly the same, it would be like adding 8 more Pokémons to the crowd that learns Double Team.

It is still an Item. It may affect Latias/Latios only, but any Pokémon can carry it. It is simply an item Latias can choose to have just like choice scarf; it's not part of the Pokémon.

Incorrect. An item is every much a part of a pokemon set as a move or ability. While all pokemon share pretty much all items, there are a few with restriced item pools (mainly giratina and Arceus).

Maybe so, but you know the effect of Double Team/Minimize; it's in your total control whereas Inconsistent is not in your control you get whatever the game whats you to get or lose. It's the same kind of luck as in Acupressure.

You have no control over the effect of double team minimize; Their effect is to give you a chance of dodging moves. You have no control over whether or not it actually happens. The reason acupressure is not very good is that you are open to attack while boosting, while inconsistent pokemon boost by protecting themselves with protect/substitute.

Read my other answer; being nearly the same effect, Minimize and Double Team stack up.

---

There is always a part of luck in the game: Crits, miss, etc. This ability is in no way broken for the Pokémons that have it aren't good in the first place - but that's not really what I ''care'' about. I'm just saying you can't ban an ability, you must ban the Pokémon along with it.

Have you even been playing lately? It's quite simply put ridiculous.

You can ban plain abilities, if they're inherently broken. We have banned parts of pokemon sets before- moves and items. The main requirement is that the rule be simple- have only 1 condition. No "No ability y on pokemon x"- it requires to conditions, just, "no ability y allowed." Indeed, the main difference between species and the other parts of a pokemon set (ability, moves, and items) is that a species is linked to a list of the three others, while the others are only linked to a list of species.

 

[shrang]

Uh, just had a battle against Inconsistent Octillery with my Holy Sword Birijion (which luckily gets past those damn Defense boosts). It took about 40-50 turns just to get rid of the stupid thing, and that's when Octillery didn't get many Evasion boosts (it was only up to +3 or something like that after a while, it had a few Evasion drops as well). This is after I used Politoed to Haze away the boosts and then bring Birijion back in. Even if Octillery didn't kill anything, it still PP stalled half of my Birijion's total moves and wasted about 5-10 minutes of time. Simply put, not fun at all, and this is when the Inconsistent user hasn't really got their way.

 

[TheAmazingFlygon]

Ok then, what if half the metagame got inconsistent and we found it broken? Would you agree to ban inconsistent rather than the pokemon then?

Yes, I would; otherwise it would be ridiculous. However, in this case so few Pokémons get it that we can evaluate the situation case by case and ban accordingly the broken Pokémons.

Incorrect. An item is every much a part of a pokemon set as a move or ability. While all pokemon share pretty much all items, there are a few with restriced item pools (mainly giratina and Arceus).

Items aren't part of a Pokémon; every Pokémon shares the same items even if the effect of the item an x Pokémon is wearing doesn't benefit him in any way.

You have no control over the effect of double team minimize; Their effect is to give you a chance of dodging moves. You have no control over whether or not it actually happens. The reason acupressure is not very good is that you are open to attack while boosting, while inconsistent pokemon boost by protecting themselves with protect/substitute.

How come you have no control over the effect of Double Team or Minimize? You select when to use the move and it always increases your evasiveness.

Have you even been playing lately? It's quite simply put ridiculous.

You can ban plain abilities, if they're inherently broken. We have banned parts of pokemon sets before- moves and items. The main requirement is that the rule be simple- have only 1 condition. No "No ability y on pokemon x"- it requires to conditions, just, "no ability y allowed." Indeed, the main difference between species and the other parts of a pokemon set (ability, moves, and items) is that a species is linked to a list of the three others, while the others are only linked to a list of species.

Banning an ability of a Pokémon is weakening his brokenness to make him usable; never had this been done before for obvious reasons.

 

[j99ubers]

He means that it makes the game more luck based because you can't control whether the evasion boost causes the move to miss or not, so even though you have control over using the move you don't have control over the effect.

 

[Arc Tech]

Yes, I would; otherwise it would be ridiculous. However, in this case so few Pokémons get it that we can evaluate the situation case by case and ban accordingly the broken Pokémons.

If you agree to banning the ability, that means that it itself would be and must be broken. That means abilities can be broken, just like moves (double team) and therefore bannable. The size of the pool of pokemon who receive it is irrelevant.

Items aren't part of a Pokémon; every Pokémon shares the same items even if the effect of the item an x Pokémon is wearing doesn't benefit him in any way.

An item is part of a pokemon set, just like species, movepool, and abilities. Garchomp was banned in early dp for its yachechomp set. Chomp would not have been nearly as broken without yache berry. Items need to be taken account of as part of a pokemon set, and are no different than moves or abilities. They are quite simply the most uniformly distributed.

How come you have no control over the effect of Double Team or Minimize? You select when to use the move and it always increases your evasiveness.

Yes, but evasion itself is luck based. You have no control over whether you actually dodge the attack or not. You are every bit as much at the mercy of the RNG as inconsistent.

Banning an ability of a Pokémon is weakening his brokenness to make him usable; never had this been done before for obvious reasons.

I agree with you, so long as it's a nonsimple rule that is to make one pokemon weaker. So long as it is a simple, blanket ban, there is no problem. See my post a bit back earlier in this topic that I quoted from the old should we ban abilities topic, or feel free to try to read through the thread yourself, explaining the problem with non-simple bans.

 

[capefeather]

I don't know why my question has been ignored. I seriously don't understand this insistence on defining "parts of Pokémon" and deciding whether or not to ban them based on that. It's one of the emptiest semantic arguments I've ever seen. Seriously, what is so great about banning a Pokémon that makes it better to do than banning a move or ability?

I hear the phrase "entire Pokémon" thrown around a lot. I'm really trying to understand the logic behind this, and I'm guessing that people are calling to ban Pokémon because they are large "pieces" of the game and it's very convenient to remove them. But the thing is, there are more Pokémon now than there are abilities or even moves. I'm not saying that move bans or ability bans should be the "canon" method of banning from now on. I'm just confused as to why people are so against banning abilities or moves at all.

So please, if you're so against the banning of an ability because "it's part of the Pokémon", tell me the real reason you're against it, because I'm tired of all this "part of the Pokémon" bs that's missed the whole point of invoking the "part of the Pokémon" argument at all. There is precedent in several competitive games other than Pokémon to ban things other than "characters".

 

[dragonmaster951753]

About the items, it doesn't make sense of what you say. If magikarp gets inconsistent but can only use splash, does that mean inconsistent is broken? Yes, the ability is still broken just the pokemon using it can't fully control it. Lati@s are the only ones who can use soul dew so therefor it is apart of them. No point in giving it to mewtwo or darkrai, and no reason to even think of anything so crazy. The item is broken and so therefor it got removed, and lati@s stayed because without it they weren't broken.

What he meant by you can't control double team or minimize, you can't control the dodge part. So you raise your evasion but it doesn't mean you will always dodge.

Just because no pokemon's ability ever got banned before doesn't mean we can't start now. I am certain that back in Gen 3 if wobbuffet had another ability one would have been banned (shadow tag) and the other would have been allowed for regular play. No, we don't know if this is 100% true but logic would suggest it would lead to that. As with this ability, without inconsistent none of these pokemon are worth mentioning, sorta like wobb in gen 2, WITH inconsistent they are troubling, annoying and very dangerous to the metagame, wobb gen 3-4. Remove the ability, remove the danger. You won't be forced to play uber to continue to play your octillery or bidoof, you can simply use their other ability and continue playing, nothing will harm you.

Inconsistent is straight across the board broken. Every pokemon that holds it, has the ability to stall (sub + protect) and attack, despite who the pokemon is. I have came across octerilly and bidoof and they were both equally bad, put inconsistent on sunflora and you have the same problem, it becomes a stall battle. It has no true counter, and if something has no true counters and if the checks are not even 100%, the pokemon/item/ability(now) in question is sent to ubers. Garchomp/salamence got put into ubers in Gen 4 for having no TRUE counters if played properly. You had an 80% chance at best of defeating garchomp in the right conditions, and had to lose a pokemon to first see what salamence was running before you could stop him. With inconsistent, nobody has yet to come up with something to trap, and remove the pokemon 100% of the time. That definitely sounds like uber qualities to me, and it deserves banning without a second thought

 

[November Blue]

I don't know why my question has been ignored. I seriously don't understand this insistence on defining "parts of Pokémon" and deciding whether or not to ban them based on that. It's one of the emptiest semantic arguments I've ever seen. Seriously, what is so great about banning a Pokémon that makes it better to do than banning a move or ability?

I agree. The difference between banning a pokemon + ability and banning an ability differs between pokes. For example, shadow tag defines wobbuffet. High HP, shadow tag, encore, countercoat. He's a "package deal." Politoed on the other hand, is simply a vessel for the drizzle ability. If you give wobb cloud nine instead of shadow tag, it'd destroy him. Cloud nine politoed would still be the same pokemon, just with the ability to do something different. This is no different to multiple abilities. Azumarril gets huge power and herbivore. Both play differently, but if we decide huge power is too powerful (lol) do we ban azumarril? What if herbivore azu is still viable? We ban the ability.

Reposting this, too.

I've been thinking about something interesting that might be worth discussing:

Rayquaza in OU

We all know him. Great 150/150/90 offensive stats, and reasonable 105/90/90 defenses. Air lock, extremespeed, swords dance. But could he be viable in OU?

No way, you say. He's too powerful! He has everything! He's the best dragon in the game!

I feel that, unless he's running a mixquaza set, he's largely outclassed by the other OU dragons, who can do what he does with higher speed, more specialized abilities and better typing. Vague statement, I know. Let's delve a little:

Base 95 speed is faster than dragonite and kingdra, and ties with kyurem. Everything else outspeeds him. This is important to note when considering a DD set. It also renders outrage an extremely risky maneuver, leaving him a sitting duck to a faster draco meteor or ice beam. While this may not have been a huge problem for dragonite in the past, it's an undeniable flaw. You can't argue Extremespeed as a solution either. Without a +2 boost, It can't OHKO many bulkier opponents who can threaten you. Just ask Deoxys-A. You can opt for the SD set, but you're now checked by non-scarved pokes. If you want to invest in attack and speed, you just make it easy for heatran and nattorei to heckle you.

What would he do in OU? If you want a dragon dancer, you're better off with mence. BulkyDD? Dragonite, gyara or ttar. Mence does mixed faster too. A physical SD set is better handled by garchomp, bar extremespeed. Special set? Sazando can use a scarf or cheer up set with STAB dark pulse, u-turn and half the ice weakness. Kyurem has... Well, he has frozen world. Speed issue solved on the switchin!

Ray has a possible niche with air lock, SD and extremespeed.

A lot of his counters already exist. He'd fit right into the current OU metagame IMO. Worth a test at the very least.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I agree. The difference between banning a pokemon + ability and banning an ability differs between pokes. For example, shadow tag defines wobbuffet. High HP, shadow tag, encore, countercoat. He's a "package deal." Politoed on the other hand, is simply a vessel for the drizzle ability. If you give wobb cloud nine instead of shadow tag, it'd destroy him. Cloud nine politoed would still be the same pokemon, just with the ability to do something different. This is no different to multiple abilities. Azumarril gets huge power and herbivore. Both play differently, but if we decide huge power is too powerful (lol) do we ban azumarril? What if herbivore azu is still viable? We ban the ability.

Reposting this, too.

I am amazed at the over-simplification and ignorance about Smogon Tiering . . .

 

[Arc Tech]

Rayquaza, thanks to his ridiculous offenses, outclasses all the other dragons. The 5 base speed makes no major difference when dragon dancing (especially when you have extremespeed, and while the base difference is somewhat important and swords dancing, the increased attack, extremespeed, and the ability to use flamethrower better makes it better than chomp. The 150 base attacks make it outclass mence when it comes to mixed sets. Who needs bulk when you have rayquaza's attack stats? The only set where it is not the best dragon (not counting other uber dragons) is choice scarf. And in that position its not outclassed either, simply an alternative. Air lock also grants it an enormous advantage in no weather passive damage, rain not halving fire moves power, and the ability to not be revenged by swift swim/chlorophyll/sand throw pokes.

 

[ginganinja]

There is no way that Rayquaza can be OU. Firslty you are kinda in the same boat as you were with Salamence in Gen 4 as first you have to find what Rayquaza is running. If its mixed and you switch in a physical wall you just got hit with a DM off 150 Special attack Attack which will pretty much dent anything. Rayquaza has excellent Priority to clean up late game as well. SD sets can even be more dangerous. Garchomp gets OHKOed by ES with SR damage and Garchomp is pretty damn bulky. 90 base speed is not too bad either. I doubt that Rayquaza will enter standard in Gen 5

 

[Khan!!!]

releasing rayquaza into ou would definitely limit the use of weather teams. i would like to see him tested.

 

[Agent123]

I agree that there should be a suspect test for Rayquaza. Sure, it has massive offenses, but there's no point in having offense if you're too slow. Just look at Ononokusu, he's faster than Ray and with just as good offense but is still outclassed by other dragons. Also, extremespeed is good, but it's not good enough to make up for it's mediocre speed.

 

[Arc Tech]

I agree that there should be a suspect test for Rayquaza. Sure, it has massive offenses, but there's no point in having offense if you're too slow. Just look at Ononokusu, he's faster than Ray and with just as good offense but is still outclassed by other dragons. Also, extremespeed is good, but it's not good enough to make up for it's mediocre speed.

He does not have 150 base special attack (for draco meteor), fire type attacks (very important), or Extremespeed (also very important upon an sd set). Did you even see what posted? After an SD, Extremespeed ohko's chomp, who has defenses equal to a swampert's (uninvested, though). That's as bulky as you're gonna get in a poke faster than rayquaza.
Rayquaza should only be tested if all ubers are tested, and at once (which is how we should have started imo).

 

[Agent123]

I meant to say Extremespeed unboosted doesn't really make up for its low speed, as most sets won't be SD. Also, I used Ono as a comparison to DD Ray, not the Mix sets. Besides, Chomp isn't the only check to Ray. You can use Scarf Jirachi, Scizor, Scarf Terrakion, and tons of other stuff. Heck, you could even use Scarf Tyranitar.

 

[PK Gaming]

Instead of banning inconsistent, how about an "inconsistent clause." The ability is banned, but the clause is not considered OU standard.

The clause could be mandatory in tournaments or ladder matches ect.

Everyone seems to be concerned about laddering with inconsistent present. Maybe giving people the option to play without it would work? I'm just bouncing ideas around. Make of this what you will.

EDIT: I've been thinking about something interesting that might be worth discussing:

Rayquaza in OU

We all know him. Great 150/150/90 offensive stats, and reasonable 105/90/90 defenses. Air lock, extremespeed, swords dance. But could he be viable in OU?

No way, you say. He's too powerful! He has everything! He's the best dragon in the game!

I feel that, unless he's running a mixquaza set, he's largely outclassed by the other OU dragons, who can do what he does with higher speed, more specialized abilities and better typing. Vague statement, I know. Let's delve a little:

Base 95 speed is faster than dragonite and kingdra, and ties with kyurem. Everything else outspeeds him. This is important to note when considering a DD set. It also renders outrage an extremely risky maneuver, leaving him a sitting duck to a faster draco meteor or ice beam. While this may not have been a huge problem for dragonite in the past, it's an undeniable flaw. You can't argue Extremespeed as a solution either. Without a +2 boost, It can't OHKO many bulkier opponents who can threaten you. Just ask Deoxys-A. You can opt for the SD set, but you're now checked by non-scarved pokes. If you want to invest in attack and speed, you just make it easy for heatran and nattorei to heckle you.

What would he do in OU? If you want a dragon dancer, you're better off with mence. BulkyDD? Dragonite, gyara or ttar. Mence does mixed faster too. A physical SD set is better handled by garchomp, bar extremespeed. Special set? Sazando can use a scarf or cheer up set with STAB dark pulse, u-turn and half the ice weakness. Kyurem has... Well, he has frozen world. Speed issue solved on the switchin!

Ray has a possible niche with air lock, SD and extremespeed.

A lot of his counters already exist. He'd fit right into the current OU metagame IMO. Worth a test at the very least.

DISCLAIMER: I'm kinda tired, so I'll be back tomorrow to go over the stuff I missed and explain that stupid thing I probably said somewhere.

This was quite possibly the dumbest post in this entire thread. Do you even play gen 5 OU? Have you ever used Rayquaza? Rayquaza in OU is
laughable. The rest of your post is also blatantly wrong.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Rayquaza in OU? Arguments saying Inconsistent is not broken despite ridiculous stories where Inconsistent turns the game around easy and turns losses into unfair wins and the only way it loses is by bad luck/playing? Deoxys A being acceptable? What kind of things is this place coming to?

The insistence of banning the Pokemon, not the ability, really holds no water. The thing is, it is apparent that the ability is broken, across all Inconsistent users. When things like Bidoof, Bibbarel, Octillery, etc are suddenly able to sweep with free boosts, there is an issue. These pokemon themselves are far from broken. But Inconsistent is so ridiculous that it makes them uber. That is ridiculous and the fact that it requires ridiculous counters and revolves it around the ability and YOU CAN STILL LOSE despite having all sorts of counters IS the reason bans and Uber clauses are exist, and Inconsistent falls under that. If it doesn't have 100% counter (or even a somewhat reliable one and is completely reliant on what fate ordains), completely forces the metagame to such a degree that it forces the existence of things that only work on it, etc, it is overcentralized to such a degree that it could not exist simply because it is no longer fun and comes down to luck. I mean, things like Haze, Foresight, Murkrow, etc are being suggested as (somewhat) counters that are completely useless otherwise, we know they're something messed up with that. That is the reason the Ubers list isn't the standard metagame that most players play (although then again, Ubers has more variety than OU which is ironic because since everything has such high power...) that force the existence of only Uber Pokemon, specific counters, and Pokemon like Scizor and T-tar that have proven again and again their ability and power in all formats.

Ps. Haze and Foresight are questionable counters because they will still get a +2 boost afterwards of something and Foresight and such moves will only affect evasion. If they get another boost, Evasion reducing moves will be useless and will get hit hard by free +2 offense boosts.

And Rayquaza in OU...while Clear Drought would be very helpful (and completely pretty much destroy weather teams since nothing on them can really stand up to Rayquaza for the most part), this thing can not be allowed back. People are becoming arrogant, thinking that things like Rayquaza and Ho-Oh and others are no longer Uber. There is an issue here. Mainly that most people really don't want to play Uber tier as standard and Ubers already have their own game (let's be honest, it has grown to such an extent, it is a tier, not just a ban list and it is a completely different game) as well as...those things were banned for a reason. Salamence was a holy terror in Gen 4. Maybe not so much now (Dragonite is better as a Dancer and Garchomp is faster and Latis are out and about, etc) but Rayquaza on the other hand...who cares about 95 speed. The problem is that anything that is naturally faster will take massive damage from either +2 Extremespeed (Garchomp gets ohkoed with Spikes, that tells you right their how powerful that is) or a mix variant. It is IMPOSSIBLE to switch in on safely without the risk of losing something.

And it does not have "many counters". No Pokemon can handle all three of its possible sets Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, or Mixed. Choice Scarf Gengar is probably the most reliable counter/revenge killer to Rayquaza being one of very few Pokemon that can stop Swords and Dragon Dance but will die to Mixed if it switched in on an attack. Nattorei...2 hit koed by Swords Dance and obviously murdered by Fireblast/Overheat. Stops Manaphy from Resting. Outruns weather teams. Is bloody murder. Before you say Ice Shard Mamoswine, +2 Extremespeed ohkoes min/min Mamoswine AND Cloyster (with Stealth Rock/Spikes). Extremespeed outpaces Ice Shard. After a single boost...nothing other than Brongzong/Skarmory can really take a hit without massive damage/death. And those couldn't do shit to Rayquaza. Choice Scarf Ditto will only do 66.16-78.06 with Extremespeed and has to use it against Rayquaza because +2 Life Orb Extremespeed ohkoes Ditto. Without residual damage, Ditto can't hope to stop it and Mischievious Heart...I think Extreme Speed outpaces it (yay +2 Speed priority!) and let's just say...unless it's Sableye, they better be very bulky and only Erufuun really stands a chance...except, it can't Encore you since it would Encore Extremespeed and it can't status you since with Extremespeed it doesn't really matter. All will die on Draco Meteor...

Seriously people. Rayquaza, in OU? What is this world coming to?

 

[ensoriki]

Read my other answer; being nearly the same effect, Minimize and Double Team stack up.

What kind of nonsense is that.
The bases of their ban's are because people do not want to deal with evasion.
However just because they both increase evasion does not mean Minimize must be banned if the goal was only to remove "broken" moves from the game. If one can sit and say that inconsistent users must be tested and that the small amount of inconsistent users makes individual testing possible, their is no reason to think Minimize with a total of 15 users is any different. Considering Minimize was not tested for being broken since what....gen 1.
Anyways not that I am trying to turn this into a pro-evasion thread, but simply put. If inconsistent users must be evaluated individually simply because the ability may not be broken on them, theres no reason to say that Minimize users could not receive the same treatment.

There is always a part of luck in the game: Crits, miss, etc. This ability is in no way broken for the Pokémons that have it aren't good in the first place - but that's not really what I ''care'' about. I'm just saying you can't ban an ability, you must ban the Pokémon along with it.

You can ban an ability.
Look at the current PO and smogon tiers.
Dream world abilities & pokemon who are NOT released are BANNED from the standard ou tier. They are not to be placed in the tier until they come out.
Do you think you can bring Inconsistent Smeargle into the Standard OU tier right now?
You can't.
Inconsistent Smeargle is essentially banned from the Standard OU tier until he comes out legitly in the game.

We can ban abilities because dream world abilities for instance are not even allowable in our standard tier until they come out.
The majority of pokemon now have more than one ability, restricting them to only being able to use this ability, or that ability does not break them. Especially when these abilities come from the dream world, when we in fact do not allow unreleased dream world versions of pokemon anyways.
If we Perversity Jaroda is already banned from Standard OU because he does not legitly exist their is no reason not to extend our reason that Inconsistent Octillery should not exist for being damaging to the sanctity of the metagame as a whole, while Octillery itself still has two other abilities to choose from.

We are not leaving Octillery without options, instead if you ban Inconsistent you allow Octillery to still exist without being punished for having an ability it does not use.

Double team & Minimize are banned from competitive use on Smogon.
Inconsistent likewise would be banned from competitive use on Smogon.
There is no reason to put suction cups Octillery in Ubers for having a universally broken ability.
Just remove the ability.
The same way Latios & Latias are not deemed broken without soul dew.

Why the hell would you ban Bibarel...Bibarel with what.. Simple? When it's a trash pokemon.
Use of Inconsistent should be restricted to ubers, but the pokemon possessing it? As long as they do not use inconsistent they should not be placed in ubers. It's ridiculous.

Why should I care what happens to ubers, when ubers isn't a tier but a ban list. So if Inconsistent use is restricted to ubers not my problem.

 

[Agent123]

Scarf Jirachi stops all three sets of Rayquaza.

 

[Obesity]

He does not have 150 base special attack (for draco meteor), fire type attacks (very important), or Extremespeed (also very important upon an sd set). Did you even see what posted? After an SD, Extremespeed ohko's chomp, who has defenses equal to a swampert's (uninvested, though). That's as bulky as you're gonna get in a poke faster than rayquaza.

Rayquaza@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Extremespeed vs Garchomp (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 80.9 ~ 95.2% (289 ~ 340 HP)
Rayquaza (252 EVs, +Nature, +2) Earthquake vs Garchomp (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 77.5 ~ 91.5% (277 ~ 327 HP)
Rayquaza@Life Orb (252 EVs, Neutral Nature, +2) Extremespeed vs Garchomp (0/0 EVs, Neutral Nature): 73.6 ~ 86.8% (263 ~ 310 HP)

Um, no it does not.

 

[lmitchell0012]

I have a couple questions. Why are we talking about banning things now when we don't even know what's going to be in the third game (move tutors??)?? Also, there's a possibility that they may release new DW pokemon that haven't been confirmed. These new pokemon could help to counter some of the threats that we perceive to be "broken". Basically, what I'm asking is, why don't we wait until the new game comes out until we talk about banning things?? Why are we doing it now??

 

[Obesity]

I have a couple questions. Why are we talking about banning things now when we don't even know what's going to be in the third game (move tutors??)?? Also, there's a possibility that they may release new DW pokemon that haven't been confirmed. These new pokemon could help to counter some of the threats that we perceive to be "broken". Basically, what I'm asking is, why don't we wait until the new game comes out until we talk about banning things?? Why are we doing it now??

And after the third game's released, what about the remakes of 3rd gen that are after the third installment? There's going to be new stuff in there too! And after that, why bother banning Pokemon? 6th gen is almost here!

We have a metagame and we need to set limits for it. What's to come is of no concern. We'll deal with move tutor crap when we get to it.

 

[SlimMan]

I have a couple questions. Why are we talking about banning things now when we don't even know what's going to be in the third game (move tutors??)?? Also, there's a possibility that they may release new DW pokemon that haven't been confirmed. These new pokemon could help to counter some of the threats that we perceive to be "broken". Basically, what I'm asking is, why don't we wait until the new game comes out until we talk about banning things?? Why are we doing it now??

Because we do suspect tests more than once per generation. When/if those come out we will test them. But they are not out and are not relevant for this particular round of tests/bans.

And even if we did only have one round of bans per generation, there's no way the community would sit still and wait 1-2 years for everything new to come without a balanced metagame. Smogon wants instant gratification.

And after the third game's released, what about the remakes of 3rd gen that are after the third installment? There's going to be new stuff in there too! And after that, why bother banning Pokemon? 6th gen is almost here!

We have a metagame and we need to set limits for it. What's to come is of no concern. We'll deal with move tutor crap when we get to it.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

With a Layer of Spikes. Garchomp better be at full health.

You still can't switch Choice Scarf Jirachi in on a predicted Fireblast/Overheat from mix sets. Also, at full health, Jirachi only has an 8% ohko with Ice Punch (unless you're risking Iron Head?) and while Life Orb will kill Rayquaza, Jirachi will still die to Earthquake/Fireblast.

Shandera could switch in on Jirachi, absorb Trick/Icepunch/Iron Head and kill you. I don't see that as being particularly viable. Other things as well can help deal with Jirachi, even if flinch is annoying (Heatran for example is great with Rayquaza).

 

[TheAmazingFlygon]

What kind of nonsense is that.
The bases of their ban's are because people do not want to deal with evasion.
However just because they both increase evasion does not mean Minimize must be banned if the goal was only to remove "broken" moves from the game. If one can sit and say that inconsistent users must be tested and that the small amount of inconsistent users makes individual testing possible, their is no reason to think Minimize with a total of 15 users is any different. Considering Minimize was not tested for being broken since what....gen 1.
Anyways not that I am trying to turn this into a pro-evasion thread, but simply put. If inconsistent users must be evaluated individually simply because the ability may not be broken on them, theres no reason to say that Minimize users could not receive the same treatment.

There is too much Minimize/ Double Team user to test them individually. Also, a non-luck base move that raise evasion is way too broken to be allowed especially since so many Pokémons get it. However, only a very Pokémons get Inconsistent and this ability is totally based on luck.


You can ban an ability.
Look at the current PO and smogon tiers.
Dream world abilities & pokemon who are NOT released are BANNED from the standard ou tier. They are not to be placed in the tier until they come out.
Do you think you can bring Inconsistent Smeargle into the Standard OU tier right now?
You can't.
Inconsistent Smeargle is essentially banned from the Standard OU tier until he comes out legitly in the game.

We can ban abilities because dream world abilities for instance are not even allowable in our standard tier until they come out.
The majority of pokemon now have more than one ability, restricting them to only being able to use this ability, or that ability does not break them. Especially when these abilities come from the dream world, when we in fact do not allow unreleased dream world versions of pokemon anyways.
If we Perversity Jaroda is already banned from Standard OU because he does not legitly exist their is no reason not to extend our reason that Inconsistent Octillery should not exist for being damaging to the sanctity of the metagame as a whole, while Octillery itself still has two other abilities to choose from.

We are not leaving Octillery without options, instead if you ban Inconsistent you allow Octillery to still exist without being punished for having an ability it does not use.

Double team & Minimize are banned from competitive use on Smogon.
Inconsistent likewise would be banned from competitive use on Smogon.
There is no reason to put suction cups Octillery in Ubers for having a universally broken ability.
Just remove the ability.
The same way Latios & Latias are not deemed broken without soul dew.

Why the hell would you ban Bibarel...Bibarel with what.. Simple? When it's a trash pokemon.
Use of Inconsistent should be restricted to ubers, but the pokemon possessing it? As long as they do not use inconsistent they should not be placed in ubers. It's ridiculous.

Why should I care what happens to ubers, when ubers isn't a tier but a ban list. So if Inconsistent use is restricted to ubers not my problem.

What? Banning an ability that way doesn't even count; being not released, you can't legitly use it and therefore it's not a ''ban''. If you ban Inconsistent on Octillery (when released), you are modifying yourself the Pokémon in order to not make him broken, which you can't do. You don't weaken a Pokémon to make it less broken; did we prevent Manaphy from using rest in order to drop him to OU?