yes i agree with that people being rude thing
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NP: UU - Zero to Hero
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I have a problem ... what counters Sub + Orb + 3 attacks Heracross? Preferably some combination of Pokemon that allows one to beat that Heracross without anyone dying (someone will take damage, but as long as nobody dies I'd be satisfied).
Right now I can't think of anything except something fancy like switch Registeel in on Megahorn, then go to Mismagius on Close Combat, then spam Substitute until Heracross dies to its own Orb or misses a Megahorn. Risky. Anything less of a gamble out there?
Right now I can't think of anything except something fancy like switch Registeel in on Megahorn, then go to Mismagius on Close Combat, then spam Substitute until Heracross dies to its own Orb or misses a Megahorn. Risky. Anything less of a gamble out there?
Nidoqueen, Gligar, Nidoking (even though his defenses suck), very bulky Rotom, intimidate with Arcanine as it subs then go to Milotic. Not much, most of it will rely on slowly stalling it out, using niche Pokemon or switching around taking SR + Spikes damage and praying for no crit. Oh, and Dusclops beats it.
I'm not much familiar with giving comments on team building, but i do suggest rotom. Why? Rotom can set-up on heracross with reflect and proceed to will-o-wisp(which would soften the foe up a bit, considering that reflect is in place, despite guts activation; correct me if im wrong) or send out to arcanine to intimidate, further decreasing heracross's attack stat.
SubRoost Moltres works pretty nicely if SR isn't up as well. You can pretty much just Substitute down until Heracross dies to burn damage.
From my experience gligar close to hard counters any heracross variant that lacks SD. Weezing also is very hard for non-sd heracross to get by. I haven't personally used it, but nidoqueen also puts sub+3 attacks hera in a bind.
Well one worry I have is that the 3 attacks Heracross might pack are Close Combat, Megahorn and Facade. With Facade hitting at 140 base power and boosted by Guts, we have:
Adamant 252 Attack Guts-active Heracross Facade vs. 252/252+ Gligar: 50.9% - 60.2% a 2HKO, but Gligar can Roost stall probably (unless Heracross forgoes Sub and attacks at once)
The same Heracross Facade vs. 252/252+ Nidoqueen: 50% - 59.1% also a 2HKO, and Nidoqueen doesn't get instant recovery
The same Heracross Close Combat vs. 248/252+ Milotic after Intimidate: 44.5% - 52.7% this isn't working
The same Heracross Megahorn vs. 252/252+ Rotom: 43.8% - 51.6% ouch
The same Heracross Facade vs. 252/252+ Weezing: 46.4% - 54.8% that didn't help
Subroost Moltres falls into the same category as Sub Mismagius (except that Facade never misses, and Moltres can't switch in if SR is up)
Looks like Dusclops is the only reliable counter: Megahorn vs. 252/252+ Dusclops is 32.7% - 39.1%. Now if only Dusclops weren't so powerless against other variants of Heracross ...
I get the feeling that I'm missing something, but I don't know what: Fighting + Bug + Normal is walled by ghosts, but Rotom takes big damage, Mismagius is less bulky than Rotom and Spiritomb is neutral to Megahorn. The other ghosts are NU for a reason, they might beat Heracross but they leave the team open to lots of other things (um ... Drifblim?).
This doesn't look good at all @_@
Adamant 252 Attack Guts-active Heracross Facade vs. 252/252+ Gligar: 50.9% - 60.2% a 2HKO, but Gligar can Roost stall probably (unless Heracross forgoes Sub and attacks at once)
The same Heracross Facade vs. 252/252+ Nidoqueen: 50% - 59.1% also a 2HKO, and Nidoqueen doesn't get instant recovery
The same Heracross Close Combat vs. 248/252+ Milotic after Intimidate: 44.5% - 52.7% this isn't working
The same Heracross Megahorn vs. 252/252+ Rotom: 43.8% - 51.6% ouch
The same Heracross Facade vs. 252/252+ Weezing: 46.4% - 54.8% that didn't help
Subroost Moltres falls into the same category as Sub Mismagius (except that Facade never misses, and Moltres can't switch in if SR is up)
Looks like Dusclops is the only reliable counter: Megahorn vs. 252/252+ Dusclops is 32.7% - 39.1%. Now if only Dusclops weren't so powerless against other variants of Heracross ...
I get the feeling that I'm missing something, but I don't know what: Fighting + Bug + Normal is walled by ghosts, but Rotom takes big damage, Mismagius is less bulky than Rotom and Spiritomb is neutral to Megahorn. The other ghosts are NU for a reason, they might beat Heracross but they leave the team open to lots of other things (um ... Drifblim?).
This doesn't look good at all @_@
To be honest I was thinking of nominating Cradily this round (except there was no nominations, of course) ... so I'm wondering what other players think of Cradily.
If I had nominated Cradily, it would've been under the defensive characteristic. It has gargantuan special defense under sandstorm, Curse to boost its other defense stat, and finally instant recovery in Recover. It has ways to deal with most attempts to stop it from setting up:
1. Toxic can be dealt with by Rest (also deals with burn).
2. Roar and Whirlwind obviously don't work (Suction Cups).
3. Haze can still wipe away any stat boosts, but the most common user of Haze in UU, Milotic, is hit super-effectively by Seed Bomb. Milotic being Milotic it's still very far from being OHKOed, or even 2HKOed, making it a good check. However, Milotic is vulnerable to Toxic, and cannot do anything back to Cradily, especially if Cradily has Rest.
Which leaves:
1. Tricking a choice item onto it;
2. Encore;
3. Perish Song;
4. Taunt.
Encore and Perish Song are fairly exclusive, while Trick can only be used once (i.e. the Cradily user can switch out [if it sees it coming, which it might not], and on the next switch in Cradily has nothing to fear). Taunt forces Cradily to attack instead of continue boosting but does nothing to soften the boosted hits. Perhaps the most common Taunt user in UU, Ambipom, can't really do anything back to Cradily, and neither can Mismagius. Since Taunt doesn't last a long time, one would have to switch Ambipom in, Taunt, switch Ambipom out, and whatever switches in next had better be able to 2HKO Cradily. With Cradily's defenses, that's not easy. For example:
LO 252 Att Adamant Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252/0 +1 Cradily: 71.8% - 84.6% (this is a super-effective attack coming off one of the highest Attack stats in the metagame, boosted by +ve nature and Life Orb attacking on Cradily's weaker defensive stat)
+1 0 Att Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 252/0 Rhyperior: 80.2% - 94.9% (good chance of OHKO after SR + 1 round of LO recoil)
If Ambipom is U-turning to something then we might have:
LO 252 Att Timid Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a sandstorm: 30.3% - 36.2%
Furthermore, since the Cradily user knows its counter must switch in before it can Curse more than two times, it can make a strong guess to attack instead of Curse. If it mispredicts it usually loses nothing, but if it hits its mark it'll quickly wear the Cradily counter down (especially with Sandstorm in effect).
Cradily cannot run every move it needs to beat every counter or check, for sure. If it runs one attacking move it risks getting walled (e.g. Rock Slide by Steelix), although it can still PP stall its counter. If it runs two, it either goes without Sleep Talk or it leaves itself vulnerable to status. If it goes without Toxic, it's walled by Haze Milotic. It requires the heavily NFE Hippostas on its team to be effective. It has a lot of drawbacks. But I've always found it really hard to break through.
I wonder what others think of Cradily. I don't know if it's BL material, but to me at least, it stands out as a potential candidate.
If I had nominated Cradily, it would've been under the defensive characteristic. It has gargantuan special defense under sandstorm, Curse to boost its other defense stat, and finally instant recovery in Recover. It has ways to deal with most attempts to stop it from setting up:
1. Toxic can be dealt with by Rest (also deals with burn).
2. Roar and Whirlwind obviously don't work (Suction Cups).
3. Haze can still wipe away any stat boosts, but the most common user of Haze in UU, Milotic, is hit super-effectively by Seed Bomb. Milotic being Milotic it's still very far from being OHKOed, or even 2HKOed, making it a good check. However, Milotic is vulnerable to Toxic, and cannot do anything back to Cradily, especially if Cradily has Rest.
Which leaves:
1. Tricking a choice item onto it;
2. Encore;
3. Perish Song;
4. Taunt.
Encore and Perish Song are fairly exclusive, while Trick can only be used once (i.e. the Cradily user can switch out [if it sees it coming, which it might not], and on the next switch in Cradily has nothing to fear). Taunt forces Cradily to attack instead of continue boosting but does nothing to soften the boosted hits. Perhaps the most common Taunt user in UU, Ambipom, can't really do anything back to Cradily, and neither can Mismagius. Since Taunt doesn't last a long time, one would have to switch Ambipom in, Taunt, switch Ambipom out, and whatever switches in next had better be able to 2HKO Cradily. With Cradily's defenses, that's not easy. For example:
LO 252 Att Adamant Rhyperior Megahorn vs. 252/0 +1 Cradily: 71.8% - 84.6% (this is a super-effective attack coming off one of the highest Attack stats in the metagame, boosted by +ve nature and Life Orb attacking on Cradily's weaker defensive stat)
+1 0 Att Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 252/0 Rhyperior: 80.2% - 94.9% (good chance of OHKO after SR + 1 round of LO recoil)
If Ambipom is U-turning to something then we might have:
LO 252 Att Timid Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a sandstorm: 30.3% - 36.2%
Furthermore, since the Cradily user knows its counter must switch in before it can Curse more than two times, it can make a strong guess to attack instead of Curse. If it mispredicts it usually loses nothing, but if it hits its mark it'll quickly wear the Cradily counter down (especially with Sandstorm in effect).
Cradily cannot run every move it needs to beat every counter or check, for sure. If it runs one attacking move it risks getting walled (e.g. Rock Slide by Steelix), although it can still PP stall its counter. If it runs two, it either goes without Sleep Talk or it leaves itself vulnerable to status. If it goes without Toxic, it's walled by Haze Milotic. It requires the heavily NFE Hippostas on its team to be effective. It has a lot of drawbacks. But I've always found it really hard to break through.
I wonder what others think of Cradily. I don't know if it's BL material, but to me at least, it stands out as a potential candidate.
With Heracross around, I don't think Cradily should even be thought of BL material, lol. If Heracross was not around, there are still heaps of Pokemon that can take it down easily (Fighting types mostly, as well as a the methods you mentioned, which a well built team should have at least of)
I'm kind of hoping Heracross will be voted BL lol.
Without Heracross, the UU Fighting types are:
Blaziken - usually choiced or Life Orb'ed, it can be worn down fast. It's looking at 12% from Stealth Rock, ~16% from a resisted Seed Bomb, 6% from Sandstorm and 10% from Life Orb recoil, if it has one. That's >40%. Not cheap at all, especially if it uses Superpower and so has to switch out soon after. Hitmonlee is similar to Blaziken, so is Primeape (although Primeape has U-turn). Toxicroak is almost the same except it more commonly carries Leftovers. All can be worn down and worn down fast. Obviously Cradily shouldn't stay in on the Fighting move.
Hariyama is a bit different, because it can be both offensive and defensive. Offensive Hariyama generally takes extra Orb damage each time, which makes wearing it down even easier. Defensive Hariyama usually don't have Close Combat (it's counterproductive). It can't Whirlwind Cradily, so it's stuck with Low Kick or Force Palm or Brick Break:
0 Attack Hariyama Low Kick vs. 252/0 +1 Cradily (80 BP): 36.7% - 43.6%
That's not convincing. Cradily can easily Curse up, Rest, etc etc etc.
This leaves Intimidate Hitmontop, who certainly works (until it's forced to Rest), but it's still only one Pokemon. I don't know if I think Cradily is BL - like with Raikou, I'm rather ambivalent on the issue - but I am curious what others think.
Without Heracross, the UU Fighting types are:
Blaziken - usually choiced or Life Orb'ed, it can be worn down fast. It's looking at 12% from Stealth Rock, ~16% from a resisted Seed Bomb, 6% from Sandstorm and 10% from Life Orb recoil, if it has one. That's >40%. Not cheap at all, especially if it uses Superpower and so has to switch out soon after. Hitmonlee is similar to Blaziken, so is Primeape (although Primeape has U-turn). Toxicroak is almost the same except it more commonly carries Leftovers. All can be worn down and worn down fast. Obviously Cradily shouldn't stay in on the Fighting move.
Hariyama is a bit different, because it can be both offensive and defensive. Offensive Hariyama generally takes extra Orb damage each time, which makes wearing it down even easier. Defensive Hariyama usually don't have Close Combat (it's counterproductive). It can't Whirlwind Cradily, so it's stuck with Low Kick or Force Palm or Brick Break:
0 Attack Hariyama Low Kick vs. 252/0 +1 Cradily (80 BP): 36.7% - 43.6%
That's not convincing. Cradily can easily Curse up, Rest, etc etc etc.
This leaves Intimidate Hitmontop, who certainly works (until it's forced to Rest), but it's still only one Pokemon. I don't know if I think Cradily is BL - like with Raikou, I'm rather ambivalent on the issue - but I am curious what others think.
If you have to "wear down" several common Pokemon to let Cradily sweep, that's not "little support". Remember, every time Cradily lets a fighting type come in nearly for free, something on your team has to deal with the retardedly powerful and effective Close Combat/Payback/Stone Edge combination (or in Toxicroak's case, a Pokemon with good coverage with a possible +2 on either attacking stat!). That is not easy by any means. Even if you pair Cradily with something like Weezing, what are you going to do about a powerful, bulky special attacker like LO Milotic (which doesn't die to +1 Seed Bomb)?
Add this to the fact that Cradily needs a couple of boosts to be offensively threatening, meaning that anything with Taunt and status or recovery can likely shut it down (such as stallbreak missy). When Umbreon was down here, I thought Umbreon was MAYBE broken, and Cradily is a lot worse than Umbreon in most relevant respects (yes I realize they are different pokemon blah blah they are still functionally identical outside of sand teams).
Edit: And your calcs are way off. +1 Cradily does 66.2% - 78.4% to 96/0 Rhyperior with Seed Bomb, and far less to 252/0 Rhyperior. Meanwhile, +1 Rhyperior's Megahorn does 82.4% - 97.3% to 252/0 +1 Cradily. +1 Seed Bomb does 65% - 77% to LO Tank Milotic, which cleanly 2hkos back with Ice Beam (so tie at best, lose at worst). Additionally, what moveset are you running here? If seed bomb is your only attack Venusaur/Scyther/Moltres/etc just shits all over you, and if you're using both seed bomb and rock slide you need to give up Sleep Talk, which means your opponent has a very predictable two turns with which to do nasty things to you (i.e. if it were me, switch in Jynx on the sleep, sub on the first turn, nasty plot on the second turn, then lol).
Add this to the fact that Cradily needs a couple of boosts to be offensively threatening, meaning that anything with Taunt and status or recovery can likely shut it down (such as stallbreak missy). When Umbreon was down here, I thought Umbreon was MAYBE broken, and Cradily is a lot worse than Umbreon in most relevant respects (yes I realize they are different pokemon blah blah they are still functionally identical outside of sand teams).
Edit: And your calcs are way off. +1 Cradily does 66.2% - 78.4% to 96/0 Rhyperior with Seed Bomb, and far less to 252/0 Rhyperior. Meanwhile, +1 Rhyperior's Megahorn does 82.4% - 97.3% to 252/0 +1 Cradily. +1 Seed Bomb does 65% - 77% to LO Tank Milotic, which cleanly 2hkos back with Ice Beam (so tie at best, lose at worst). Additionally, what moveset are you running here? If seed bomb is your only attack Venusaur/Scyther/Moltres/etc just shits all over you, and if you're using both seed bomb and rock slide you need to give up Sleep Talk, which means your opponent has a very predictable two turns with which to do nasty things to you (i.e. if it were me, switch in Jynx on the sleep, sub on the first turn, nasty plot on the second turn, then lol).
Hey nice council members.
Please consider a ban of Venusaur too, this fucker is so damn good and has besides Registeel no clear counters (and Registeel lacks reliable healing and can be wittled down and slows teams down by very much + he is Set-Up-Bait vs. certain things).
I would like to see Heracross as well as Venusaur banned.
Please consider a ban of Venusaur too, this fucker is so damn good and has besides Registeel no clear counters (and Registeel lacks reliable healing and can be wittled down and slows teams down by very much + he is Set-Up-Bait vs. certain things).
I would like to see Heracross as well as Venusaur banned.
OK so I had this long post written up but a combination of unfortunate events made me lose it ...
@Cradily - Cradily isn't anything near BL under the offensive characteristic. It needs to take many turns to boost. Which is why I mentioned it under the defensive characteristic. Now let's first get our calcs right:
I did the Cradily's Seed Bomb vs. SOLID ROCK Rhyperior wrong (I mistakenly had Lightning Rod selected). This is the right one:
0 Attack Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 252/0 Solid Rock Rhyperior: 40.1% - 47.7%
0 Attack +1 Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 252/0 Solid Rock Rhyperior: 60.1% - 71.2%
Either way Rhyperior takes a lot of damage. Rhyperior can switch in once on Cradily, which is not convincing (same as Blaziken).
252 SpA LO Milotic Ice Beam vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a sandstorm: 27.7% - 33% (not even close to a 2HKO). Cradily happily boosts to +6 and wipes the floor with Milotic.
+1 Rhyperior does do more to Cradily than LO Rhyperior, obviously, but the point is that if you are forced to use one move then it's not hard to switch to a resist. What is +1 Rhyperior Megahorn vs. Steelix or Registeel? And then after that, Rhyperior won't be able to switch in again ... on the other hand, if you overpredict, you are in trouble because Cradily will get at least 2 Curses in if it stays in.
With Fighting attacks, yes the idea is to go to a Pokemon that can take all that damage. Aside from Heracross and Hitmontop, none of the other Fighting types commonly carry recovery. So aside from Hitmontop, they can all be worn down quite fast, especially with Sandstorm in effect. Although +2 Toxicroak is scary, it isn't unbeatable either - that's why Toxicroak isn't BL under the offensive characteristic. Same applies to all the other Fighting types.
Umbreon ... just isn't the same as Cradily. It has far less SpD (Cradily has over 500), and it is vulnerable to Roar and Whirlwind. Its STAB is also resisted by Fighting types, which makes wearing the Fighting types that counter Umbreon down, harder. But Umbreon isn't UU for good, so it's irrelevant I guess.
Now let's assume Cradily does indeed only have Seed Bomb as the attacking move. Scyther destroys Cradily regardless of what it does, but it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock and Sandstorm is in effect, so if SR is up it will have a maximum of one switch-in. Not good, especially since relying on a Pokemon 4x weak to Stealth Rock to check something is not safe.
Moltres fails to dent Cradily - I had this calc from before: LO 252 Att Timid Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a sandstorm: 30.3% - 36.2%. So Cradily Curses up to +6. +6 Seed Bomb still fails to 2HKO Moltres, but then since Cradily has Rest, it can PP stall better than Moltres can (by not using Sleep Talk), which is ironic because Moltres is the Pokemon with Pressure. SS + Life Orb recoil will force Moltres to keep Roosting, too, when it is more vulnerable to Seed Bomb.
Most Venusaur also fails to dent Cradily (rare SD versions excepted). Worse, Synthesis healing is cut from Sandstorm, so unlike Moltres +6 Seed Bomb will kill offensive variants.
Finally, let's suppose Cradily does have two attacks and no Sleep Talk. In that case it would be silly to stay in on Jynx. Since Jynx is losing 25% health to Stealth rock, and then another 25% to Substitute (which it cannot recover thanks to Sandstorm), it again won't be long before it's worn down. Besides, Jynx behind a Substitute isn't the end of the world. Once again the thing to do would be to wear it down. If it were me, I'd probably go to Registeel and then to my RestTalk Milotic on the Lovely Kiss, but then I'd be kicking myself if Lovely Kiss misses.
Cradily certainly doesn't sweep teams without support, because one thing it certainly needs is Sandstorm. But I don't want to sound like I'm arguing for Cradily BL. I'm rather ambivalent on it, like I was with Raikou. Just wondering what other people think, if you don't think it's BL then so be it.
@Above - why say it has no counters? Off the top of my head, Arcanine, Altaria, Drapion, other Venusaur and Moltres all counter it.
@Cradily - Cradily isn't anything near BL under the offensive characteristic. It needs to take many turns to boost. Which is why I mentioned it under the defensive characteristic. Now let's first get our calcs right:
I did the Cradily's Seed Bomb vs. SOLID ROCK Rhyperior wrong (I mistakenly had Lightning Rod selected). This is the right one:
0 Attack Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 252/0 Solid Rock Rhyperior: 40.1% - 47.7%
0 Attack +1 Cradily Seed Bomb vs. 252/0 Solid Rock Rhyperior: 60.1% - 71.2%
Either way Rhyperior takes a lot of damage. Rhyperior can switch in once on Cradily, which is not convincing (same as Blaziken).
252 SpA LO Milotic Ice Beam vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a sandstorm: 27.7% - 33% (not even close to a 2HKO). Cradily happily boosts to +6 and wipes the floor with Milotic.
+1 Rhyperior does do more to Cradily than LO Rhyperior, obviously, but the point is that if you are forced to use one move then it's not hard to switch to a resist. What is +1 Rhyperior Megahorn vs. Steelix or Registeel? And then after that, Rhyperior won't be able to switch in again ... on the other hand, if you overpredict, you are in trouble because Cradily will get at least 2 Curses in if it stays in.
With Fighting attacks, yes the idea is to go to a Pokemon that can take all that damage. Aside from Heracross and Hitmontop, none of the other Fighting types commonly carry recovery. So aside from Hitmontop, they can all be worn down quite fast, especially with Sandstorm in effect. Although +2 Toxicroak is scary, it isn't unbeatable either - that's why Toxicroak isn't BL under the offensive characteristic. Same applies to all the other Fighting types.
Umbreon ... just isn't the same as Cradily. It has far less SpD (Cradily has over 500), and it is vulnerable to Roar and Whirlwind. Its STAB is also resisted by Fighting types, which makes wearing the Fighting types that counter Umbreon down, harder. But Umbreon isn't UU for good, so it's irrelevant I guess.
Now let's assume Cradily does indeed only have Seed Bomb as the attacking move. Scyther destroys Cradily regardless of what it does, but it is 4x weak to Stealth Rock and Sandstorm is in effect, so if SR is up it will have a maximum of one switch-in. Not good, especially since relying on a Pokemon 4x weak to Stealth Rock to check something is not safe.
Moltres fails to dent Cradily - I had this calc from before: LO 252 Att Timid Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252/252+ Cradily in a sandstorm: 30.3% - 36.2%. So Cradily Curses up to +6. +6 Seed Bomb still fails to 2HKO Moltres, but then since Cradily has Rest, it can PP stall better than Moltres can (by not using Sleep Talk), which is ironic because Moltres is the Pokemon with Pressure. SS + Life Orb recoil will force Moltres to keep Roosting, too, when it is more vulnerable to Seed Bomb.
Most Venusaur also fails to dent Cradily (rare SD versions excepted). Worse, Synthesis healing is cut from Sandstorm, so unlike Moltres +6 Seed Bomb will kill offensive variants.
Finally, let's suppose Cradily does have two attacks and no Sleep Talk. In that case it would be silly to stay in on Jynx. Since Jynx is losing 25% health to Stealth rock, and then another 25% to Substitute (which it cannot recover thanks to Sandstorm), it again won't be long before it's worn down. Besides, Jynx behind a Substitute isn't the end of the world. Once again the thing to do would be to wear it down. If it were me, I'd probably go to Registeel and then to my RestTalk Milotic on the Lovely Kiss, but then I'd be kicking myself if Lovely Kiss misses.
Cradily certainly doesn't sweep teams without support, because one thing it certainly needs is Sandstorm. But I don't want to sound like I'm arguing for Cradily BL. I'm rather ambivalent on it, like I was with Raikou. Just wondering what other people think, if you don't think it's BL then so be it.
@Above - why say it has no counters? Off the top of my head, Arcanine, Altaria, Drapion, other Venusaur and Moltres all counter it.
Modest 252 SpA LO-Venusaur:
Sludge Bomb vs. SDef-Arcanine: 37.8% - 44.8% (+ SR + Chance to Poison + FASTER)
Sludge Bomb vs. Morning Glory Arcanine: 60.1% - 70.9% (+ SR and 1 Layer of Spikes or a tiny bit of residual damage)
Sludge Bomb vs. Support Altaria: 35.9% - 42.4% (Yo you are once again faster and if we can assume SR...)
Leaf Storm vs. SDef-Drapion: 34% - 40.1% (and only Rest as healing methode AND Drapion only 2hkos back with Venus LO-Damage factored in.)
Sludge Bomb vs. Sdef-Drapion: 21.8% - 25.9% (wittle him down)
Sludge Bomb vs. SDef-Venusaur: 34.9% - 41.2% (and it does jack shit back.)
Sludge Bomb vs. Standard-Moltres: 62% - 73.2% (Ohko with SR duh)
Sludge Bomb vs. SDef-Moltres: 36.8% - 43.3% (just for the lulz... aint very reliable aint it? Just one Poison or a bit residual damage are enough)
Sludge Bomb vs. SDef-Weezing: 25.7% - 30.5%
Leaf Storm vs. SDef-Weezing: 40.1% - 47.3%
And dont forget that most of these counters which can "safely" switch in are slower and can be put to sleep after the initial attack which gives Venusaur another free attack.
Oh and Venusaur can actually use random Hidden Powers like [Rock] or [Psycho] (lul).
Even Chansey can be defeated by a simple Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Sludge Bomb, Leaf Storm combination (+ Chansey wont every time be full health).
With this said Registeel is the only true Venusaur-Counter, though SD-Venusaur (yes Venusaur isnt only strong it is also relatively versatile) decimates Registeel with Earthquake.
(And then theres Curse-Venusaur which abuses Registell as Set-Up Bait...)
Hmmmmm....
That was just a short overview why i find him broken. For more detailed answers you may look up the suspect nominations form the last 2 nomination threads. Eo explained pretty good why Venusaur should be put in the BL-Banlist.
^ I think that whining about Venusaur is bull when you have fucking Heracross running around in UU. It was designated Uber in Japan for Gen 3, fgs. And Modest LOL, Venusaur runs Timid for a reason.
Venusaur actually helps to balance the teir because it mitigates the threat Milotic poses to any UU team. Most other UU grass types don't handle Milotic nearly as well as Venusaur does. Venusaur is, for the most part, extremely predictable. Well-timed switching can wear it down, and it's not unbeatable, even if it can sleep one of its counters. IMO, it makes battles more enjoyable because it forces you to think more.
Venusaur actually helps to balance the teir because it mitigates the threat Milotic poses to any UU team. Most other UU grass types don't handle Milotic nearly as well as Venusaur does. Venusaur is, for the most part, extremely predictable. Well-timed switching can wear it down, and it's not unbeatable, even if it can sleep one of its counters. IMO, it makes battles more enjoyable because it forces you to think more.
banedon, how is cradily boosting up to +6 that easily? just like you wouldn't stay in on CB Rhyperior with cradily, your opponent (if he's worth two shits) obviously isn't going to go 'herp derp let's keep trying to kill it with moltres/lo milotic/lo venu/the few pokemon it can actually set up on'. they're going to switch to their cradily killer, which is rather easily accomplished depending on what set you're running. just like it's not the end of the world for your team if toxicroak comes in on dily and sets up, it's not the end of the world if i'm facing a cradily and it comes in on milo. it's not that hard to force it out since a lot of the time it just acts like milotic in ou: just sits there and is fat without doing much. seriously if cradily were that hard to kill it would be a top tier threat, which it obviously isn't...
First of all, if you're assuming Sandstorm for Cradily, it automatically becomes non-broken. Sand in UU is not "common battle conditions"; you'll essentially need to start 5-6 in order to give Cradily the support you're assuming, which is a pretty big deal. None of my calculations or arguments assumed Sandstorm, simply for the reason that assuming Sandstorm invalidates your entire "position" (I understand that you're not necessarily arguing Cradily for BL, but that's what your arguments imply).
Second, you mention that Scyther is 4x weak to SR, but remember that something on your team will be eating a ridiculously powerful CB U-Turn...that does at least 25% to any non 4x resist, meaning that the gain in momentum and the damage done definitely puts you in a worse position than your opponent. You use the same flawed reasoning for a lot of other counters too: why is it easy for you to predict perfectly and switch Registeel into a possible CB Megahorn when a CB Earthquake completely fucks your shit up (and note that Cradily doesn't even resist Earthquake)? Why is it easy for you to wear down powerful Fighting-types (even discounting Heracross) when their common counters lack reliable recovery and when they resist SR and Pursuit?
In this game, a Pokemon being forced out is a very bad thing because of a) hazard damage b) loss in momentum that you're not guaranteed to get back and c) prediction risk. You seem to be ignoring all of these factors and assuming that it's trivial for Cradily to just walk out when one of the multiple Pokemon that force it out show up. It's not. Games are won and lost because of momentum transfers and possible mispredicts such as that.
Second, you mention that Scyther is 4x weak to SR, but remember that something on your team will be eating a ridiculously powerful CB U-Turn...that does at least 25% to any non 4x resist, meaning that the gain in momentum and the damage done definitely puts you in a worse position than your opponent. You use the same flawed reasoning for a lot of other counters too: why is it easy for you to predict perfectly and switch Registeel into a possible CB Megahorn when a CB Earthquake completely fucks your shit up (and note that Cradily doesn't even resist Earthquake)? Why is it easy for you to wear down powerful Fighting-types (even discounting Heracross) when their common counters lack reliable recovery and when they resist SR and Pursuit?
In this game, a Pokemon being forced out is a very bad thing because of a) hazard damage b) loss in momentum that you're not guaranteed to get back and c) prediction risk. You seem to be ignoring all of these factors and assuming that it's trivial for Cradily to just walk out when one of the multiple Pokemon that force it out show up. It's not. Games are won and lost because of momentum transfers and possible mispredicts such as that.
Banedon, all I can tell you from all this is to stop theorymoning and actually play with Cradily or play against it. It's actually a lot harder to get going than you're making it, seriously.
Heracross obviously curbs Venusaur usage, but that point is moot to me because I think both Pokemon are broken. I still stand by my opinion on Venusaur (let's not turn this into a discussion about Raikou or Moltres again...), and I think it deserves a suspect vote as much as Heracross.
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