Yep, you clearly didn't think.
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Reuniclus
- Thread starter Pratty
- Start date
Yep, you clearly didn't think.
Of course there are ways to beat it. There's ways to beat any mon. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's not banworthy.
You can't just come out and list ways to beat something and act like it's case closed, the Pokemon is clearly not broken, everyone else is just being lazy. You really have to examine the effect a Pokemon has on matches. I've seen far too many matches that revolved around Rank because of the limited ways in which you can beat it. These matches usually have both players delicately playing around Rank and making sure it never has a chance to set up. Rank really limits the way you can use a number of Pokemon during a match, because you can't give it that chance it needs.
You can't just come out and list ways to beat something and act like it's case closed, the Pokemon is clearly not broken, everyone else is just being lazy. You really have to examine the effect a Pokemon has on matches. I've seen far too many matches that revolved around Rank because of the limited ways in which you can beat it. These matches usually have both players delicately playing around Rank and making sure it never has a chance to set up. Rank really limits the way you can use a number of Pokemon during a match, because you can't give it that chance it needs.
I'm not going to bother addressing why everything you put in bold is irrelevant individually since you couldn't bother putting your text in quotable form, but I will say this: every strategy has drawbacks. Of course the strategies of beating Reuniclus will have drawbacks, just like the strategy of using a Flying-type to beat Roobushin will have drawbacks, etc. People are comparing it to Rayquaza for crying out loud, let's get real here. This isn't even a case like Garchomp where there were no hard counters. Reuniclus has several hard counters that are OU-viable, and several moves at the disposal of common pokemon that completely shut it down.
The fact that one strategy of beating one pokemon can't beat all other 649 pokemon isn't an indication of something being broken.
Most of the moves and mons I listed have plenty of viable uses other than beating Ranku. Perish Song has been a common useful move for 4 generations now. Taunt has been used since gen 3 and has been amazing since gen 4. Wobbuffet and Spiritomb both do other things than beating Rank, and they beat Rank pretty damn well IMO.
There are plenty of viable strategies to use when thinking of Rank/Reun. I'm sick of people saying "well my stall team can't beat it so it must be broken", as if performance against stall teams is the measure of how strong something is. I mean seriously, we even have team previews now. You even know when you're going to face it and what it's likely to come out against on your team.
The best part is that you don't even have to use a specific strategy to beat Rankurusu. You can just power through it because of how slow it is. All of the double-STAB rain teams I see on the ladder don't seem to have issues with my Ranku.
Never has a pokemon been banned because of "the effect [it] has on matches." They are banned because they are too powerful, not because they can get around brute-force methods of being countered.
This sounds like a lot of OU pokemon, and even some pokemon that are UU. I would chalk up this delicate play more to team previews than Rank. The reason why they play delicately is because they know it's coming, and their opponent knows exactly how they plan to stop it because of the information given by the team preview.
As I said, I utilise a niche strategy to beat it, running Skill Swap over Seismic Toss on my Chansey. Yes, it is less effective against 95% of the meta, but I HAVE to run it, because otherwise I will lose a lot. Let me be a bit more in-depth. My most recent team consists of Mew/Dusclops/Nattorei/Chansey/Gyarados/Forretress. Mew is a Spdef Phazer and sets up rocks. It also has Superpower to deter Tyranitar. Dusclops is a Restalk spinblocker with W-o-W. Nattorei and Forry together set up and spin hazards. Natt also helps to deal with rain, and acts as a rock resist. Chansey and Gyarados together deal with Special and Physical threats. Thanks to intimidate, I have considerably less difficulty beating such beasts as Terakion, Dory and DD Kingdra. Gyarados is the second bulkiest intimidator with Rest, Sleep Talk and Roar, and lacks the ugly weaknesses of Mence, specifically to Dragon. Chansey is stupidly bulky, and also cures status. Of that team, the only way I can fit a dedicated Rankurusu 'counter' in is to consolidate Forry and Natt into one Pokemon, Forry. This means I need a way to help deal with rain, resist rock and beat Rankurusu 1-on-1 every time. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see a way I can fit a dedicated Rank counter without crippliung the whole team against a lare number of threats. I can get away without a rock resist by swapping Mew for Hippo, but then I'm forced into a corner by random special threats because I can't reliably Phaze them. This is not a crap team. Played well, it beats almost all of top threats out there. But it does not beat Rankurusu without Skill Swap Chansey, a frankly ridiculous measure. You cannot compare Rank with Clefable, because without Magic Guard, Rank would be very good and Clefable would be horrendous. Clefable is beaten by lots of common things. Rankurusu is not. Also, if fable has sub, it only has one attack, which means it will invariably be walled by half the metagame. Or it does not have Softboiled, which means it will be killed by multiple strong attacks.
Somebody name a Rankurusu counter that isn't shit and I'll shut up, provided it works. Until then, it is broken, not because of no good counters, but because of no good counters and the fact it cannot be effectively played around. I'm not refusing to use something from the very small list of things that beat it because they don't fit, or because they open the team up to other threats, I'm refusing because all of them are crap. With the new Pokemon, yes, you can't counter everything. But you can have a team that can deal with everything. Maybe you have to play around certain threats, but that's OK. The issue is that Rank necessitates otherwise almost useless options which a team cannot afford to use in the current metagame.
EDIT: Also, if a Pokemon 100% beats Stall on it's own, it should already have been banned. A single Pokemon beating an entire playstyle is ustterly ridiculous. I have at least three stall players I know who forfeit when they see Rank in team preview because matches against it ARE NOT FUN.
Somebody name a Rankurusu counter that isn't shit and I'll shut up, provided it works. Until then, it is broken, not because of no good counters, but because of no good counters and the fact it cannot be effectively played around. I'm not refusing to use something from the very small list of things that beat it because they don't fit, or because they open the team up to other threats, I'm refusing because all of them are crap. With the new Pokemon, yes, you can't counter everything. But you can have a team that can deal with everything. Maybe you have to play around certain threats, but that's OK. The issue is that Rank necessitates otherwise almost useless options which a team cannot afford to use in the current metagame.
EDIT: Also, if a Pokemon 100% beats Stall on it's own, it should already have been banned. A single Pokemon beating an entire playstyle is ustterly ridiculous. I have at least three stall players I know who forfeit when they see Rank in team preview because matches against it ARE NOT FUN.
Well of course you don't want to give it the chance to set up. You don't want to let Garchomp or Ulgamoth setting up on you either. Difference is, even if it does set up, it's not sweeping with that speed and strong physical attacks 2HKO it. Unlike other stuff that actually has the speed to sweep you.
Really? Skill Swap and Toxic? If you're going to make up combinations of moves just to beat something, you know there's a problem.
Also what Jabba said:
That was one item in a long list that I came up with off the top of my head. An item in a list of hard counters to Reuniclus that are viable in OU.
By your logic, everything should be banned because you have to make up combinations of moves to beat them.
Or you could run Perish Song/Wobbuffet/any of the other counters that have been mentioned in this thread that are all completely viable.
CM Clefable does the EXACT SAME THING to stall teams. Why isn't that broken?
I'm pretty sure it's a contributing factor to how powerful a pokemon is.
Just because a Pokemon has terrible speed doesn't mean it can't sweep. It has amazing bulk, one of the best abilities in the game, and a 50% recovery move. It sweeps just fine (that's even if we're ignoring the TR set). Also I assume by strong physical attacks you mean EXTREMELY strong physical attacks. Because things like unboosted Terakion stone edge only manage around 40% and that's a "strong" physical attack.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I call playing delicately around something playing well. Thinking about your next move and its effects on the rest of the match is a sign you know what you are doing. IMO there is just going to have to be stuff this gen we have to be careful of.
The problem with your mentality is that you refuse to change your playstyle and instead insist on changing things in the metagame to force your playstyle to work. 6 wall stall teams don't really work anymore. I don't know if you play wifi or dream world but honestly since everyone will be playing dream world eventually, your team will still have problems with a lot of stuff like Serperior. When the time comes, you will either change your team anyway or insist that more pokemon get banned so your stall team is still viable.
And just so you know CM/thunderbolt/ice beam/softboiled clefable destroys your team too. Want that banned too? or maybe you should just use a balanced team and get some pokemon that can actually do damage.
Suppose Stall just has to run a Fighting type. gg
Now with Rank, there's really no quick-fix Dark type since he's really bulky and can just OHKO them all with a +1 Focus Blast before they can KO him.
Don't use Clefable as an example, though, it's a garbage Pokemon that can't do anything besides break stall. Rank can plow through a lot of teams pretty easily if you give him even one shot to set up.
Playing delicately around a threat to your team is of course categorized under "playing well." But what I mean to imply by playing delicately is that the ways in which a standard team can handle rank are so scarce that you're almost forced to save your counters for rank, which limits how you play the rest of the battle. (ie if your rank counter is scizor, you have to make sure it's always at a high enough of a level to take a focus blast or else there's a good chance your entire team could be opened up to rank).
Yes of course "can't you say that about a lot of pokemon and how you play with their counters blah blah blah." Sure, that's a given. But nowhere near the level you have to with Rank (and this is including other Pokemon I think are broken in this metagame such as Dory and Latios)
It could be part of the bigger issue, I'll give you that. But I don't see people here saying that Ranku is so powerful that nothing they have can take a hit from it, and I don't see people saying that it's so good defensively that nothing can kill it. The only reasoning I've seen so far is that it requires unorthodox ways of beating it, which gives unfavorable matchups to stall teams.
True, but it certainly doesn't help. If you put TR on your set, you now have to waste one of every 5 turns using it and you lose room for an attack. It can't do everything at once.
Can you quantify this at all? In addition to being obviously subjective the "level at which you have to play around" something is also different for each team, and different for each player using a team.
How exactly does Perish Song do anything useful to it?
Also, I mentioned that Clefable sucks because Rank is way bulkier and MUCH more powerful. I doubt Clefable has a way to beat Chansey/Blissey in it's one attack, while Rankurusu will smash right through them eventually. You can't really compare them because like I said, without Magic Guard, Rankurusu would still be good while Clefable would be shitty NU or maybe low UU. Clefable DOES NOT BEAT STALL ON IT'S OWN. The difference between this and say Chomp is that if Chomp sets up, you have some playing around to do, while if this sets up, you likely just lost.
I'll say this again. Beat Rankurusu with a stall team. Don't just list a load of stuff you think beats it, go out there and build a stall team and then deal with it. When you do that, feel free to comment on how broken it is. Also, if your answer to Rank is 'Rain teams can Kill it' then that is utterly stupid. Unless it is banned or somebody presents a good way to deal with it, I will stop playing competetive Pokemon, because I do not enjoy playing an offensive team at all, and shouldn't be forced to use one. Neither should I be forced to used Wobbuffet, who is pretty useless in my experience. Much of the new stuff beats it, and 3 turn Encore is basically one free turn of setup. I can get that by being threatening. If it had Recover it would be better, but still pretty bad, because it's defenses aren't enough. say it switches into Terakion. They Swords Dance, you Encore and waste some pp. Now it is at +6 and there is nothing you can do to stop it obliterating wobby and likely the rest of your team as well. I don't see choiced Pokes very often anymore, and the ones I do see are so strong that Wobby would act as a one-time revenge killer, because he can't switch in. I know plenty of Pokemon who can revenge more than once.
Also, I mentioned that Clefable sucks because Rank is way bulkier and MUCH more powerful. I doubt Clefable has a way to beat Chansey/Blissey in it's one attack, while Rankurusu will smash right through them eventually. You can't really compare them because like I said, without Magic Guard, Rankurusu would still be good while Clefable would be shitty NU or maybe low UU. Clefable DOES NOT BEAT STALL ON IT'S OWN. The difference between this and say Chomp is that if Chomp sets up, you have some playing around to do, while if this sets up, you likely just lost.
I'll say this again. Beat Rankurusu with a stall team. Don't just list a load of stuff you think beats it, go out there and build a stall team and then deal with it. When you do that, feel free to comment on how broken it is. Also, if your answer to Rank is 'Rain teams can Kill it' then that is utterly stupid. Unless it is banned or somebody presents a good way to deal with it, I will stop playing competetive Pokemon, because I do not enjoy playing an offensive team at all, and shouldn't be forced to use one. Neither should I be forced to used Wobbuffet, who is pretty useless in my experience. Much of the new stuff beats it, and 3 turn Encore is basically one free turn of setup. I can get that by being threatening. If it had Recover it would be better, but still pretty bad, because it's defenses aren't enough. say it switches into Terakion. They Swords Dance, you Encore and waste some pp. Now it is at +6 and there is nothing you can do to stop it obliterating wobby and likely the rest of your team as well. I don't see choiced Pokes very often anymore, and the ones I do see are so strong that Wobby would act as a one-time revenge killer, because he can't switch in. I know plenty of Pokemon who can revenge more than once.
It forces it out or kills it if your opponent was using it as a win condition. Some Pokemon have recovery like Celebi and can genuinely stall out the three turns. Others can just use Protect or sit there be bulky and wall it while it fails to do any significant damage.
Honestly though, I think Rankurusu is pretty good for such a disorderly metagame. He can be your last resort in hairy situations and doesn't take shit of any kind from stall. He's also one of the few viable counters to Roopushin that don't involve just using a really strong special attack on the revenge. I can think of a lot more reasons to have him around than I would to have him gone.
@ fastflygon
Give me a few days, I don't generally play stall. I'll agree with jabba that counters are few and that, I'll say it might be banworthy, but I can't believe it single handly destroys every single stall team in existience.
Give me a few days, I don't generally play stall. I'll agree with jabba that counters are few and that, I'll say it might be banworthy, but I can't believe it single handly destroys every single stall team in existience.
Uh, it forces it to switch which lets your team set up on it. It also prevents a sweep if Ranku is the last pokemon.
Use Taunt on your stall team. Use Perish Song on your stall team. Use Wobbuffet on your stall team. Use Spiritomb on your stall team. There are plenty of options for stall to deal with it.
And even if there weren't, why would "beating stall" mean that something should be banned from all of OU? By this logic we should ban Clefable, Cradily, Terakion, Tyranitar, Wobbuffet, etc etc. I'm going to go out on a limb here but it sounds like your stall team needs work if you instantly lose when Ranku comes out (as you seem to be implying).
It's not our job to tell you how to play. It's your job to come up with new strategies (even though we already have given you plenty). If you are going to quit instead of innovate, then you are precisely the kind of user that we don't want.
You literally summed up the reason why we have a rating requirement for voters. "Unless someone tells me how to win, I quit". Classic.
That's a very absolutist way of putting it, but considering the driving force of Stall is indirect damage like Toxic or entry hazards and the fact that Rank takes that out of the equation... :/
Again, there's Perish Song, but aside from that or keeping in reserve one VERY offensive Pokemon, stall simply can't beat this thing.
Talk of a broken Ranculus, eh? I suppose it's not completely unwarranted - it can destroy stall and outspeed hyper-offense if you give it even a tiny chance. Alot of "counters" people mention don't even take into account what else Ranculus can run, as i've mentioned before I use HP Fire and if Trick Room's up, it's complete denial for Scizor or Genosect.
And I have seen evidence of centralisation occuring - there are lots more Spiritombs running around, at least in the Main Server. More things are using Sucker Punch, too.
I've been running a combination of Evo Stone Doubran and Ranculus in the same time and whilst it's not devastating, I imagine it could be in more competent hands. Doubran with Trick Room is more than competent on its own, and with if its big brother waiting in the wings, the threat of Trick Room doesn't die with it.
Personally I don't think a ban is warranted. If it prevents one style of gameplay then the way you're playing it simply does not work - stop refusing to adapt because you might lose all your winning combinations, find new and perhaps more devastating ways to use Stall. Offensively, it has its fair share of counters and is unlikely to OHKO much without Hazard support.
And I have seen evidence of centralisation occuring - there are lots more Spiritombs running around, at least in the Main Server. More things are using Sucker Punch, too.
I've been running a combination of Evo Stone Doubran and Ranculus in the same time and whilst it's not devastating, I imagine it could be in more competent hands. Doubran with Trick Room is more than competent on its own, and with if its big brother waiting in the wings, the threat of Trick Room doesn't die with it.
Personally I don't think a ban is warranted. If it prevents one style of gameplay then the way you're playing it simply does not work - stop refusing to adapt because you might lose all your winning combinations, find new and perhaps more devastating ways to use Stall. Offensively, it has its fair share of counters and is unlikely to OHKO much without Hazard support.
What does that have to do with anything. It's like saying "without no guard machamp is shitty while roobushin is still good even without guts. Ban Roobushin!". The fact is they do have magic guard and with it they beat 6 wall stall teams because it isn't hurt in the least by them.
Yea...you lost if your team has 6 walls that can't do any damage to it. If chomp sets up, my team that carries 6 pokemon that can't outspeed it probably lost too. So ban chomp? or get something that can kill it.
I'll say this again, stop using 6 wall stall teams and put some shit that can do damage and play semi-stall. Don't QQ about it because times change. I wish I could go back to 3rd gen and have a team that counters everything too. I wish I can use pokemon I like instead of ugly fucks like roob or breloom. I wish I don't have to run weather to counter weather. But you know what? I do because that's the metagame. Either adapt or quit.
That doesn't matter at all. It can just as easily get CMs up, it's slightly bulkier on the physical side, and at +6, it doesn't matter whether it gets STAB or has lower Special Attack. There's absolutely no difference between the two in terms of the characteristics that you claim make Reuniclus broken.
Yes, it does. A set like this:FastFlygon said:
Clefable@Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
Bold, 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Softboiled
-Calm Mind
-Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psychic
-Toxic
Ability: Magic Guard
Bold, 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Softboiled
-Calm Mind
-Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psychic
-Toxic
SJCrew said:
I suppose Psychic is now no longer weak to Ghost and Bug. LO Gengar has ~50% chance to OHKO with Shadow Ball at +0, and always 2HKOs at +1. Goruugu always 2HKOs with Shadow Punch, and Dusknoir has Taunt and Shadow Punch. Mismagius has Taunt and Shadow Ball, and Shandera always 2HKOs at +1 with Shadow Ball. If Rankurusu uses Shadow Ball to "bypass" these threats, most of which are not OHKOed by a +1 Shadow Ball, then it loses Psychic, making its only option against Fighting-types the unreliable Focus Blast, allowing stuff like Roobushin to boost in its face and KO it.SJCrew said:
That's not mentioning Zuruzukin's ability to 2HKO with Crunch and survive a +1 Focus Blast. Also, Spiritomb is that "quick-fix Dark type," making an excellent Reuniclus counter. Most Bug-types also do brilliantly against Reuniclus; Scizor's CB U-turn does up to 91%, while Heracross' Megahorn straight up OHKOs. This isn't even mentioning the other Reuniclus counters previously mentioned in the thread, which you seem to be completely ignoring, including Taunt, Trick, Perish Song, and Wobbuffet.
As for the point about Clefable, Clefable is bulkier than Reuniclus on the physical side, making it more difficult to KO, and can use Psychic just about as effectively as Reuniclus can use Focus Blast, 2HKOing every Fighting-type.
There are quite a few counters to Reuniclus, but apparently any sort of change to one's team is now a "niche strategy."