np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Bolded what I feel to be the weak point in this statement. The metagame now is really not overcentralised as far as I see. A variety of stall, bulky offence, balance, and even HO are viable, as are many varieties of weatherless, SS, Rain, and to an extent Sun and Hail teams. I don't really see any overcentralisation in individual pokemon either, a lot of options are viable on all the above teamstyles. Sets are the only real way you could say Latios overcnetralises, but given the variety of ways you can revenge it, as well as plan for it via team preview, I don't think this is particularly significant overcentralisation.

What are the many varieties?
I don't mean to sound so "anti-Latios",but aside from scarfers(which tbh, are kinda rare now), there's not much that can come in and kill Latios.

I mean, there are only 3 mons(2 being common, the other being rare) that don't mind using Pursuit in their movepools, which are Tyranitar, Scizor, and Escavalier.
That doesn't seem like a lot.

 

[Jibaku]

[I wasn't around in the old days when Chomp was OU and had about 70% useage]

32.81% was his peak when he was OU. =/

To me, Latios seems like 4th Gen Salamence/Latias. It's such a massive threat, that every team is prepared for it, limiting it's usefulness to the point where it seems acceptable, but, in reality, the only reason it even seems acceptable is because of the intense overcentralisation.

Careful what you say here. I mentioned earlier that a lot of the Pokemon that stops Latios fulfills other very important roles. IMHO countering Latios is almost like a byproduct of trying to counter something else. At least for me anyways - I focus more on stopping the greater threats in this meta (things like Reuniclus, Thundurus, Sand sweepers), and Latios coverage usually comes by naturally, only maybe requiring a small tweak or two. So the claim that Latios is "overcentralizing" (can we stop using this word?) could just as easily be attributed to the other potential suspects in the game.

And this metagame isn't even "overcentralized" (except for weather, but that's something that's been around since Gen 3 anyways). I've seen a variety of teams including sand offense, sand balanced, sand stall, rain offense, rain stall/balanced, sun offense, hail, many weatherless offensive/defensive teams, and even Trick Room teams. Most of them are just as viable as the other if built correctly. Sand teams are only just about as dominant as rain teams as far as usage goes.

 

[Lamppost]

Bolded what I feel to be the weak point in this statement. The metagame now is really not overcentralised as far as I see. A variety of stall, bulky offence, balance, and even HO are viable, as are many varieties of weatherless, SS, Rain, and to an extent Sun and Hail teams. I don't really see any overcentralisation in individual pokemon either, a lot of options are viable on all the above teamstyles. Sets are the only real way you could say Latios overcnetralises, but given the variety of ways you can revenge it, as well as plan for it via team preview, I don't think this is particularly significant overcentralisation.

I have hardly battled at all in this round because my computer with PO on it got fried, but i will state this fact off my battles. I did around ten battles on the smogon server, literally 8 of those 10 battles was against a ss team. I dont know if this was because i was low on the ladder at the time, or if ss has completely taken over this round. I'm just putting that out there, because as far as i can see atm there is not much variety.

 

[Ace Emerald]

The thing is, you could easily equate these shifts with the Salamance and Latias Syndrome in Gen 4.

Scizor was everywhere. When Salamance got banned, he dropped significantly.

Scarftar was everywhere when Latias was OU, when it was banned, Scarftar dropped off the radar.

The fact that every team type is now cramming anything that can serve as a check/counter is Latios screams too much of the Gen 4 Latias and Salamance Syndrome. [I wasn't around in the old days when Chomp was OU and had about 70% useage]

Remember, Salamance was hotly debated on the OU/Uber borderline, because he had 'checks' which held him in place, such as Scizor. But the point was, it was either use at least one of these checks, or you lose. It's the same with Latios. Either you use one of his very few checks, or you lose. You can't really work around Latios without something like Jirachi or Scarftar, just like you couldn't work around Salamance in 4th Gen without Scizor, and a few other pokemon.

To me, Latios seems like 4th Gen Salamence/Latias. It's such a massive threat, that every team is prepared for it, limiting it's usefulness to the point where it seems acceptable, but, in reality, the only reason it even seems acceptable is because of the intense overcentralisation.

Just like in Round 2, there were far more sand teams than there are now.

To me, latios is a bit different than last gen mence. The thing is, people really aren't stuffing counters on their teams. But the metagame is a lot harsher to latios than it was to mence last gen. For example, on my team, most pokes can hit latios pretty well. I didn't plan that. The pokes that hit latios hard aren't even considered counters or checks. But since they can hit latios, he is much less of a problem. A lot of good stuff in this meta can hit latios hard, even though they aren't checks or counters, and that's why many people aren't concerned with him.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I have hardly battled at all in this round because my computer with PO on it got fried, but i will state this fact off my battles. I did around ten battles on the smogon server, literally 8 of those 10 battles was against a ss team. I dont know if this was because i was low on the ladder at the time, or if ss has completely taken over this round. I'm just putting that out there, because as far as i can see atm there is not much variety.

It was the ladder. From my laddering experiences the ladder goes in cycles. Early in the day, a lot of Sun teams show up, mid day there are a lot of rain teams and later a lot of Sand, in between being a mix of everything.

 

[Lamppost]

It was the ladder. From my laddering experiences the ladder goes in cycles. Early in the day, a lot of Sun teams show up, mid day there are a lot of rain teams and later a lot of Sand, in between being a mix of everything.

That was probably it, once i get my computer fixed (this week) i will get back on top of the leaderboards again, I'm hoping the top of the ladder isn't all ss teams.

 

[alphatron]

The arguements supporting Latios' place in standard can also be applied to a pokemon like Ho-oh (and then some, considering the rough time he would have switching in to anything with his awful defensive typing and mediocre physical defense, the fast paced offensive manner of Gen 5, and the fact that he has even more checks than Latios does).

But I digress. It's been half and half for me. On one hand, I don't like the fact that every team has to carry something for him while simultaneously worrying about other threats (which I've long since quit with. It is impossible to cover all of your bases in the Gen 5 metagame with one team alone). On the other hand, most teams (sandstorm) aren't too concerned with him and he is possible to play around.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

I use Porygon 2 with evolution stone and he takes Latios' DM's well enough, i just recover damage afterwards. Once he gets the analyze ability of dream world that will come in handy, download is too inconsistent (i dont think Trace is worth it).

 

[TLK]

I use Porygon 2 with evolution stone and he takes Latios' DM's well enough, i just recover damage afterwards. Once he gets the analyze ability of dream world that will come in handy, download is too inconsistent (i dont think Trace is worth it).

Trace is AMAZING. It lets you counter Salamence, Gyarados, Heatran, Jolteon perfectly. It's an amazing ability.

 

[ak_Archangel]

I run a defensive porygon 2 with stone as well.
With trace u can outspeed all weather using pokes and seems to have great enough coverage and bulk to take out the "broken" pokes.


Porygon2 @ Evoultion stone
Trait: Trace
EVs: 178 HP / 252 SDef / 80 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Hidden Power [Fire]

 

[SlimMan]

@ Lightning Tiger:
ALL defensive Porygon2 should be using Trace.
The only time to use Analyze/Download is on an offensive set, in which case you'd probably be better off using a different pokemon.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

All right, heres what i use and what it does.

Porygon2 @ Evoultion stone
Trait: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 48 SDef / 192 Def / 16 specs attack
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Thunder Wave

I can live pretty much anything and paralyze the attacker, then i just use recover until i get parahax (if they are using some like like focus blast or close combat that could 2 hit ko me), if i happen to have gotten the right download boost i will then attack, or else il just switch if its not worth it.

Pretty handy, many times i just end up spreading paralysis to pretty much everything they have.

 

[Jibaku]

Offtopic but, I'd really reconsider Trace there. Aside from the stuff TLK mentioned earlier, Trace lets you copy Thundurus' Mischievous Heart. If you need to backup check him, you can MH Thunder Wave and end his sweep (not to mention full paralysis chance + focus blast miss combined = ~50% chance of him not touching you).

 

[shrang]

I believe that your post has inside the answers to your questions. This metagame is a lot more offensive than the 4th Gen one (especially after Latias and Salamence were banned). There are many new offensive threats in this generation, some of them are naturally faster than Latios (Thundrus, Tornadus, Excadrill during SS, clorophillerls on sun teams, speed boost Blaziken) while others can use a -2 SpA Latios to set up and generate dangerous situations for the Latios user. Add to this that we already got a plethora of counters\checks during the past generation and you'll understand the reasons why people are voting it OU.

I've always been convinced, even back in 4th Gen, that the Lati twins were not OP without soul dew and I'm glad that most players are starting to play around them rather than trying to eliminate them from the metagame.

While you aren't contradicting yourself saying Lati twins weren't broken in 4th gen, the stuff quoted can also easily apply to 4th gen. There were a number of things that could revenge Latias in 4th gen. ScarfTar was the biggest one, then you had Weavile, LO Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Starmie, lolNinjask and Choice Scarf users. As for Pokemon that could set up on -2 Draco Meteor, there were plenty of those, too. Agiligross, Lucario (SD or Agility), SD Scizor, CM Raikou, CM Suicune, Agility Empoleon (LO or SubPetaya), DD Tyranitar and even DD Gyarados can set up and avoid being revenged by Latias later. If the metagame is more offensive, Latios should be even more broken this gen since the reason Latias was banned last gen was through the Support Characteristic (most dubious Characteristic ever, but eh). More Pokemon are able to sweep due to the offensive nature of the metagame, so he fulfills the requirements for which Latias was banned last gen even better now. 5th gen is slightly different, but the factors dictating whether Lati@s should be banned are still there. I'm still finding it hard to believe that Latias was found broken last gen but at the same time, Latios is not this gen.

 

[iSkittles]

While you aren't contradicting yourself saying Lati twins weren't broken in 4th gen, the stuff quoted can also easily apply to 4th gen. There were a number of things that could revenge Latias in 4th gen. ScarfTar was the biggest one, then you had Weavile, LO Aerodactyl, Jolteon, Starmie, lolNinjask and Choice Scarf users. As for Pokemon that could set up on -2 Draco Meteor, there were plenty of those, too. Agiligross, Lucario (SD or Agility), SD Scizor, CM Raikou, CM Suicune, Agility Empoleon (LO or SubPetaya), DD Tyranitar and even DD Gyarados can set up and avoid being revenged by Latias later. If the metagame is more offensive, Latios should be even more broken this gen since the reason Latias was banned last gen was through the Support Characteristic (most dubious Characteristic ever, but eh). More Pokemon are able to sweep due to the offensive nature of the metagame, so he fulfills the requirements for which Latias was banned last gen even better now. 5th gen is slightly different, but the factors dictating whether Lati@s should be banned are still there. I'm still finding it hard to believe that Latias was found broken last gen but at the same time, Latios is not this gen.

I find it rather easy to believe actually, since this isn't 4th Gen. Some of these arguments about banning Latios can be applied to nearly any top tier OU pokemon. Like take the muscle guy with a big nose, (I forget his name.) if you let him get in and set up just 1 bulk up, it's pretty much gg from there when your team is lacking a decent check/counter for him.

From most of what I'm reading here, people are having trouble finding a spot on their team to specifically handle Latios for whatever reason. With all the hyper offensive Pokemon introduced this generation, there's no way one single team can prepare for all of them. Being prepared for one threat sometimes leaves you vulnerable to another, it's just the way things are.

I know my argument might be flawed since I suck at putting my thoughts into text, but I think I got the general idea across. With the power creep going on, I don't feel like Latios is overwhelming or can't be stopped, he's simply good at what he does. Please don't try to force Gen 5 down to Gen 4 standards. (Not you specifically, I mean in general.)

 

[shrang]

I find it rather easy to believe actually, since this isn't 4th Gen. Some of these arguments about banning Latios can be applied to nearly any top tier OU pokemon. Like take the muscle guy with a big nose, (I forget his name.) if you let him get in and set up just 1 bulk up, it's pretty much gg from there when your team is lacking a decent check/counter for him.

From most of what I'm reading here, people are having trouble finding a spot on their team to specifically handle Latios for whatever reason. With all the hyper offensive Pokemon introduced this generation, there's no way one single team can prepare for all of them. Being prepared for one threat sometimes leaves you vulnerable to another, it's just the way things are.

I know my argument might be flawed since I suck at putting my thoughts into text, but I think I got the general idea across. With the power creep going on, I don't feel like Latios is overwhelming or can't be stopped, he's simply good at what he does. Please don't try to force Gen 5 down to Gen 4 standards. (Not you specifically, I mean in general.)

I know this isn't 4th gen, but everything that was used to ban Latias last gen can be used on Latios this gen. Latias was banned last gen even with the counters/checks and Pokemon who could set up on it after it's made a kill, yet when we apply the same thing to Latios this gen (which, I reiterate is a better Pokemon than Latias in the so-called "broken" role), he's overwhelming OU. If we apply the same logic, this should not be happening. I know there's power creep, but Latios does virtually the same job with the same efficiency this gen as it did last gen (maybe even better), so it's kind of irrelevant. So either, we would have to admit that Latias was not broken last gen to be consistent in thinking Latios is not this gen, or we have to ban Latios to be consistent with our belief that Latias was broken last gen. You can't logically believe both at the same time.

 

[iSkittles]

I know this isn't 4th gen, but everything that was used to ban Latias last gen can be used on Latios this gen. Latias was banned last gen even with the counters/checks and Pokemon who could set up on it after it's made a kill, yet when we apply the same thing to Latios this gen (which, I reiterate is a better Pokemon than Latias in the so-called "broken" role), he's overwhelming OU. If we apply the same logic, this should not be happening. I know there's power creep, but Latios does virtually the same job with the same efficiency this gen as it did last gen (maybe even better), so it's kind of irrelevant. So either, we would have to admit that Latias was not broken last gen to be consistent in thinking Latios is not this gen, or we have to ban Latios to be consistent with our belief that Latias was broken last gen. You can't logically believe both at the same time.

Speaking from a personal perspective, I don't find him to be broken at all. I've used and played against him vs rather decent players (I'm pretty ok as well.) and he only seems as good as any other strong Pokemon this generation.

I refuse to accept that things like the mole and genies are acceptable but the cutie dragon twins are broken. Maybe it's a bit prejudiced toward them? I didn't play extensively last gen pre lati banning, but for the little time I did play when Latias was still around in OU I didn't find her broken then as well.

Maybe I'm a bit of a Lati fangirl, but I'd rather the community find something to stop a threat rather than ban it for convenience's sake.

 

[Onetwobanana]

Has anyone looked at Empoleon as a check / counter to Latios?

A Calm Empoleon with 252 HP / 4 Sp.Atk / 252 Sp.Def takes less than 40% from Specs DM, and hits back for a solid 2HKO (with Rocks) with Ice Beam. HP Fire and Grass Knot do even less. Thunder/Thunderbolt is an issue, but as far as I've seen most Latios seem to be forgoing those particular moves these days.

Empoleon doesn't really mind getting Tricked Choice Specs, since he doesn't have any recovery outside of Leftovers and (lol) Aqua Ring. A set of Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Grass Knot / HP Electric should function marvelously.

 

[Meru]

Empoleon is easy to wear down, easy to set up on with Nattorei, and Agility versions are easy to revenge with Dory.

Wish Jirachi is superior in pretty much every way.

 

[Typhlosion]

Well I use an anti-lead Empoleon, that almost always manages to take down at least one pokemon with it, and even 2 a lot of the time. Heck, i once went 6-0 with it it, granted my opponent probably wasn't very good. Back to the subject of Lati@s, i never seem to have much of a problem with it as i use a 252 HP/252 SpDef Vaporeon that can wall it for days unless it has thunderbolt (which i rarely see nowadays). I dunno, there's probably some huge flaw in it that i'm not seeing, but i enjoy moderate success with it.

 

[Requiem[9]]

Has anyone looked at Empoleon as a check / counter to Latios?

I don't think anyone's looked into Empoleon as a Latios counter because very few people are looking very hard for a dedicated Latios counter: more than half the teams in the current metagame have Tyranitar and the remainder have Nattorei. Granted, Surf and HP Fire theoretically give these problems, but Tyranitar doesn't need much investment at all to take two Specs Surfs (mine has 244 SpD with 0 HP and can live 2 Surfs or 2 DMs comfortably and OHKO with Pursuit) and Nattorei is often pairs with Rain. Any steel type with some SpD investment (Scizor, Exclavier, Jirachi) also works, for teams that don't want either. I mean, Latios is good put it's honestly not a particularly big deal. Specifically, though, Empoleon wouldn't make a good Latios counter because the Latios player can just switch out to any number of pokemon -- Rotom-W is the big one in my head, since it takes nothing from Grass Knot, but even Tyranitar will take the Ice Beam or 0 SpA Surf, outspeed, and threaten Superpower -- and you've lost a ton of momentum for nothing.

That said, I'm wondering why Latios is such a hot topic. I admit that I haven't read the entire thread, but it looks like the last three pages have been dedicated to Specs Latios when it's one of the lightest threats in the metagame. Specs definitely isn't the best set because Specs Latios is significantly more vulnerable to Tyranitar and the Bug/Steel types than LO-Recover for a marginal increase in power. The team I've been laddering with lately -- under "Gareth Brown" and "Fire With Fire", if anyone's curious -- is based around Latios and both accounts have been in the top fifteen, so I can't deny it's good, but it's always frustrating to use. It's incredibly easy to lose momentum when I predict a weakened Tyranitar switch and DM only to see a Nattorei or a pokemon when I predict a Nattorei switch and HP Fire and see a Tyranitar. Against opposing Latios, I just switch to Tyranitar or Scizor right away and I've got a free kill, since critical existence failure is the watchword when checking Reuniclus.

Conversely, I also don't see much discussion at all of pokemon that I actually find threatening. For instance, in my random clicking, I haven't seen any mention of Blaziken. I don't know about everyone else, but I'm really tired of putting Azumarill on every single one of my teams to keep it from sweeping me and still losing a pokemon every time it comes in. Granted, it doesn't come in often and can't come in very many times, but it's basically impossible to build a successful team without Azumarill and Burungeru with it around. Doryuuzu is fine, whatever: it has limited attacking options and it's very easy to run multiple checks and most run Balloon so Azumarill gets a "free" switch at least once. Blaziken has two sets, Mix and SD, whose only common counters are Azumarill and Burungeru, the former of which can't even switch in either because it's KO'd by HJK + residual damage, either of which flat sweeps when those counters are down.

Similarly, Reuniclus. How the fuck was this thing not banned.

 

[Onetwobanana]

Words

RE: Empoleon - Fair enough. He doesn't have much use outside of checking Latios, makes him pretty much dead weight. Figured I'd throw the idea out there, though.

RE: Blaziken - I don't run Azumarill or Jellicent, and Blaziken isn't particularly troublesome to me. If my Hippowdon is still kicking around when 'ken pops out, I'll send him out on the SD, survive whatever gets thrown my way, and KO with EQ. If Hippo is dead, ScarChomp serves a similar role. I haven't seen the mixed set at all, so I can't really comment on it here.

RE: Reuniclus - I run Reuniclus, and I'll be the first to admit that it's given me some wins when I honestly shouldn't have won - but even then, that largely happens because my opponent either has no idea how to play around Reuniclus and lets me set up six CMs, or because I manage to hold Reuniclus back until my opponent is worn down enough that it gets too difficult to play around him. On the other hand, however, there have been times that smart switching / phazing has utterly shut my Reuniclus down, to the point where he's almost dead weight. I'd say Reuniclus' biggest weakness is his reliance on Focus Blast. The miss chance hurts a lot. It's certainly a very, very powerful Pokemon, and an extremely relevant threat, but I'd hesitate to call it overpowered or broken.

 

[Requiem[9]]

RE: Blaziken - I don't run Azumarill or Jellicent, and Blaziken isn't particularly troublesome to me. If my Hippowdon is still kicking around when 'ken pops out, I'll send him out on the SD, survive whatever gets thrown my way, and KO with EQ. If Hippo is dead, ScarChomp serves a similar role. I haven't seen the mixed set at all, so I can't really comment on it here.

RE: Reuniclus - I run Reuniclus, and I'll be the first to admit that it's given me some wins when I honestly shouldn't have won - but even then, that largely happens because my opponent either has no idea how to play around Reuniclus and lets me set up six CMs, or because I manage to hold Reuniclus back until my opponent is worn down enough that it gets too difficult to play around him. On the other hand, however, there have been times that smart switching / phazing has utterly shut my Reuniclus down, to the point where he's almost dead weight. I'd say Reuniclus' biggest weakness is his reliance on Focus Blast. The miss chance hurts a lot. It's certainly a very, very powerful Pokemon, and an extremely relevant threat, but I'd hesitate to call it overpowered or broken.

Fire Blast and +2 HJK do ~70% to Hippo, while +2 Flare Blitz does 86% minimum. With hazards and some prior damage, your Hippo's dead to even SD, and Mix will attack twice. Mix often carries HP Ice for Garchomp. Similarly, Hippo gives free switches to lots of dangerous pokemon like Latios or CB Azumarill (on EQ or Ice Fang respectively, though Ice Fang doesn't really hurt Latios anyway). I was looking through the earlier posts in the thread, and I guess Slowbro works too. But, still, that's not a very big list of counters and many of them simply aren't good. Of that list, offense can't even feasibly run anything but Azumarill. I mean, it doesn't automatically win, but it does so very easily. Much more easily than Latios, certainly.

Reinculus ruins stall, mostly. Beyond that, it's not spectacular because every team is running 2-3 pokemon that beat it, but it comes in easily and dents its counters in much the same way Latios does, except it has Magic Guard and the bulk to take hits and set up. I mean, it doesn't matter that Focus Blast misses so much: you're mostly using it on predicted switches anyway, and the other guy's luck is only going to last for so long. Roost/SD Scizor hardcounters it, I guess, but... not really anything else. It's in much the same vein as Blaziken: I'm a bit tired of running two counters to it and still feeling like I'm going to lose. Too many players play it poorly and it's great for momentum, so I'm not quite sure either, but it's existence invalidates stall and necessitates a certain set of pokemon on every team, at the very least.

 

[Meru]

My biggest annoyance is five really bad synergizing pokemon on a team and then someone decides "hmm I'm stall weak, let me just throw on a Reuniclus there for the hell of it"

Unless stall waters itself down with something like Spiritomb, Reuniclus is extremely hard to beat. My current strategy is to phaze with Latias, put up enough hazards to eliminate the rest of the team to the point where Jellicent is able to be at full health when Reuniclus comes in and Taunts/S-Balls him to death. Very easy for things to go wrong.

Open to any stall suggestions to beat Reuniclus but aside from CMrachi, all of the options over-prepare you to the point where you're weak against offense, or are very easy to wear down with Reuniclus' Tyranitar/Scizor support

 

[Requiem[9]]

My biggest annoyance is five really bad synergizing pokemon on a team and then someone decides "hmm I'm stall weak, let me just throw on a Reuniclus there for the hell of it"

Unless stall waters itself down with something like Spiritomb, Reuniclus is extremely hard to beat. My current strategy is to phaze with Latias, put up enough hazards to eliminate the rest of the team to the point where Jellicent is able to be at full health when Reuniclus comes in and Taunts/S-Balls him to death. Very easy for things to go wrong.

Open to any stall suggestions to beat Reuniclus but aside from CMrachi, all of the options over-prepare you to the point where you're weak against offense, or are very easy to wear down with Reuniclus' Tyranitar/Scizor support

I don't know anything about your team other than that you've beaten me with it, but specially defensive Jirachi sounds like it could work: against offense, it comes in on Latias or non-specs Politoad or Tornelos or whatever and spreads Paralysis, then threatens to flinch stuff to death. Playing offense, it's one of my least favorite pokemon. It's not perfect in any respect, though.