np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[AccidentalGreed]

Okay, so I've tested out Specially Defensive Scizor for a while, and I have to say it just doesn't fulfill its duty as a teammate as I thought it would. Agreeing with Kefka on this, but once the Specially Defensive Scizor has fulfilled its obligation, Pursuit or not, it basically becomes a bit of a dead weight with a (noticeably) weaker offensive presence. Sure, it makes a good switch in to Latios' Draco Meteor, but like Kefka said, it's fairly specific and it takes <50% damage on something it's supposed to counter handily. Still, even with the threat of Latios, my opinion is that the metagame is pretty solid right now. If I were to play in an obvious Suspect environment, Latios would be close to it, but there were times when I easily set up in front of a -2 Latios, whether it's Gorebyss, Dragonite, Salamence, and friends.

As a side discussion, has anybody come up with anymore colorful, yet competitively viable options for defeating Dual Screens + Gorebyss? Brick Break is...underwhelming on a certain Pokemon to say the least.

And as a Jirachi user, I highly recommend a Wish / Specially Defensive Jirachi. It stops so many things with Body Slam, and as a Wisher its typing and HP is very viable in today's metagame.

 

[masterful]

The bold part bothers me.
It's kinda hard to have death fodder in the first few turns of a battle, isn't it?

If you would read the entirety of what I said, I was merely stating that if Latios was truly such a bane to your team, a simple solution always exists to ensuredly get rid of it. You will rarely be forced to take such a hit for no reason, but I hoped to simply put in perspective how little of a problem it is to trade one poke for Latios.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

As a side discussion, has anybody come up with anymore colorful, yet competitively viable options for defeating Dual Screens + Gorebyss? Brick Break is...underwhelming on a certain Pokemon to say the least.

Well, I haven't played in the last two days, but when I did face it, I sent out Scizor(as screens were set up) and used Swords Dance.

Didn't really work that well tbh since I only "won" because the guy rage quitted on me and he let me get to +4.

I think priority Taunt would be the best thing.(Before Gorebyss sets up)

 

[StarmanXL]

On the point of Latios, I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen more Escavalier around on the ladder. It makes a pretty good Latios check since it resists DM but also has better Sp. Def than Scizor, ALWAYS counters Reuniclus, and can murder a lot of things that would try to set up on choiced Megahorn (Excadrill takes like 77% and can't OHKO with EQ, Landorus is handily 2HKO'd, Thundurus and Tornadus risk an OHKO with SR, yadda yadda yadda). Is it the fear of Blaziken and Heatran coming in?

 

[masterful]

Okay, so I've tested out Specially Defensive Scizor for a while, and I have to say it just doesn't fulfill its duty as a teammate as I thought it would. Agreeing with Kefka on this, but once the Specially Defensive Scizor has fulfilled its obligation, Pursuit or not, it basically becomes a bit of a dead weight with a (noticeably) weaker offensive presence. Sure, it makes a good switch in to Latios' Draco Meteor, but like Kefka said, it's fairly specific and it takes <50% damage on something it's supposed to counter handily. Still, even with the threat of Latios, my opinion is that the metagame is pretty solid right now. If I were to play in an obvious Suspect environment, Latios would be close to it, but there were times when I easily set up in front of a -2 Latios, whether it's Gorebyss, Dragonite, Salamence, and friends.

As a side discussion, has anybody come up with anymore colorful, yet competitively viable options for defeating Dual Screens + Gorebyss? Brick Break is...underwhelming on a certain Pokemon to say the least.

And as a Jirachi user, I highly recommend a Wish / Specially Defensive Jirachi. It stops so many things with Body Slam, and as a Wisher its typing and HP is very viable in today's metagame.

For Gorebyss, I find either Erufuun, Thundurus, or Tornadus to be very useful counters, as each can either Taunt, paralyze, or Encore the receiver or Gorebyss herself, allowing the strategy to be defeated

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

For Gorebyss, I find either Erufuun, Thundurus, or Tornadus to be very useful counters, as each can either Taunt, paralyze, or Encore the receiver or Gorebyss herself, allowing the strategy to be defeated

Too bad Garchomp is one of the most common receivers :/

 

[masterful]

Too bad Garchomp is one of the most common receivers :/

Which is why Erufuun is so useful against that strategy

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

On the point of Latios, I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen more Escavalier around on the ladder. It makes a pretty good Latios check since it resists DM but also has better Sp. Def than Scizor, ALWAYS counters Reuniclus, and can murder a lot of things that would try to set up on choiced Megahorn (Excadrill takes like 77% and can't OHKO with EQ, Landorus is handily 2HKO'd, Thundurus and Tornadus risk an OHKO with SR, yadda yadda yadda). Is it the fear of Blaziken and Heatran coming in?

The issue is that it has trouble doing its job early as you arent pursuiting early meaning the reuniclus/lati is switchi9ng out giving the opponent set up oppurtuniity. The main issue I had when I used it was the lost momentum it afforded when it came in.

 

[Darkon]

For Gorebyss you can use roar, whirlwind, dragon tail, overhead throw, haze, perish song + protects, encore eruufun... .-.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

For Gorebyss you can use roar, whirlwind, dragon tail, overhead throw, haze, perish song + protects, encore eruufun... .-.

Can't the Gorebyss just kill you?

 

[Thorhammer]

Can't the Gorebyss just kill you?

Gorebyss only has two attacking moves, tops. If it even has the two, they're usually Surf and Ice Beam, which renders it unable to do heavy damage to a number of bulky Waters.

 

[capefeather]

Latios is definitely starting to get rather annoying. I feel like Latios does way better on opposing teams than it does on my teams. I've been trying Life Orb lately and it's quite effective, though. I've also been seeing an increase in Conkeldurr, who has been surprisingly annoying as well. A Conkeldurr+Reuniclus combo in particular sent me packing pretty quickly. People also seem to be overloading on Excadrill/Landorus checks like Skarmory and Bronzong. Those Skarmory just keep on coming...!!!

 

[Lamppost]

Latios is definitely starting to get rather annoying. I feel like Latios does way better on opposing teams than it does on my teams. I've been trying Life Orb lately and it's quite effective, though. I've also been seeing an increase in Conkeldurr, who has been surprisingly annoying as well. A Conkeldurr+Reuniclus combo in particular sent me packing pretty quickly. People also seem to be overloading on Excadrill/Landorus checks like Skarmory and Bronzong. Those Skarmory just keep on coming...!!!

I noticed that too. The increased amount of skarmory really f'd my team up. I had to change a few of my mons since i didn't really have a good skarm counter.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Would Heracross solve the Conkeldurr + Reuniclus problem? I know this is theoretical, but Heracross resists the two common moves that Conkeldurr has and checks Reuniclud with STAB Megahorn. Additionally, Heracross can utilize its Substitute set to check out for threats and switch-ins that would otherwise rain on the party. I mean, if Conkelldurr can be viable with Skarmory and Gliscor around, I'm sure Heracross is. Did I mention Guts?

 

[Oglemi]

AccidentalGreed, jeez way to spoil my ace in the hole...

But yeah, Heracross is only just OK this gen. Too many Flying-types and he didn't/doesn't fair well against Rain teams either.

 

[PK Gaming]

I can't wait until Heracross gets moxie. No more death foddering against Heracross!

 

[shrang]

Anyone else find Latias a lot more threatening than Latios? It's kind of like CM vs TG on Manaphy. While Latios is really powerful, Latias, IMO poses a much bigger long term threat with its better bulk. Calm Mind Latias with something like Tyranitar removed can cause so much more damage than Specs Latios, IMO.

 

[YAYtears]

CM latias is easily worn down by status. Trust me: I've used it. Not to mention ttar and stuff.

 

[sxof]

there were times when I easily set up in front of a -2 Latios, whether it's Gorebyss, Dragonite, Salamence, and friends.

D-nite&Mence are cleanly OHKOed by a -2 DM with rocks up, regardless of their EV investment, while 252/0 Gorebyss takes 80%.

I find it confusing how much trouble the Gorebyss strategy gives people. If you have a bulky water-type not named Burungeru on your team, slap Roar/DragonTail on it and you're safe. If you have enough priority on your team, no Garchomp will sweep you. If you have hard-hitting pokes, no Deoxys will manage to set up screens on you. If you have none of the above, then your team will face much more serious problems than just Gorebyss. It's very easy to adapt one's team to be able to deal with this strategy.

Even if you have none/ don't want to use any of the above, there's always the option of abusing the fact that your opponent's playstyle is based around a Gorebyss pass. I'm not very good at explaining my arguments, but what i mean is that, if your opp runs a Gorebyss, it's likely that they don't have a bulky water type or Azumarill on their team. Thus, you can use one of these gazillions of sweepers (DD Mence/ D-nite/ Haxorus/ RP Landlos/ Terakion) that benefit from the lack of bulky water-types, or other sweepers (Dorryuzu/ Blaziken), that otherwise would be revenged by Azumarill. That way, you put as much of a pressure on your opponent as he does to you. There's no way a strategy which needs 5+ turns to prepare is suspect-worthy. In this meta, there are pokes able to sweep entire teams with 1 turn of setup. Team preview helps with preparing a gameplan so that you don't allow that turn.

Latios is broken btw. It forces the opponent to sacrifice one of his pokes without any drawbacks to the user. That is, of course, unless the opponent has 2 of his 10~ checks, in a metagame with 600+ pokes. -2 Latios is only setup on by Steel-types and bulky boosters.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

If you have enough priority on your team, no Garchomp will sweep you. If you have hard-hitting pokes, no Deoxys will manage to set up screens on you.

Latios is broken btw. It forces the opponent to sacrifice one of his pokes without any drawbacks to the user. That is, of course, unless the opponent has 2 of his 10~ checks, in a metagame with 600+ pokes. -2 Latios is only setup on by Steel-types and bulky boosters.

So, Garchomp killing 3 -4 mons is FINE as long as you have 3 -4 priority users, but Latios is broken because you have to sacrifice 1 mon?

Also, hard-hitting mon don't necessarily OHKO Deo-S once it puts a screen up. Remember, screens halve damage.
Deo-S is so fast that it's hard to stop it from setting up screens and setting up along with it is risky as your damage will still be terrible because of the screens.

 

[sxof]

Garchomp may KO 3-4 pokes, but that's after 5+ turns of setup one shouldn't have allowed. He also cannot come back and repeat the proccess. Latios needs no setup, and can simply switch again in on one of his 6 or so resistances to fire off another DM.

 

[Arc Tech]

Garchomp may KO 3-4 pokes, but that's after 5+ turns of setup one shouldn't have allowed. He also cannot come back and repeat the proccess. Latios needs no setup, and can simply switch again in on one of his 6 or so resistances to fire off another DM.

Chmop used Sub!
Vappy used Ice Beam! It missed!
Chomp used SD!
Vappy used Ice Beam! It missed!
Chomp used SD!
Vappy used Ice Beam! It missed!
Chomp used SD!
Vappy used Ice Beam! It missed!

Try again once sand veil is part of evasion clause where it rightly should be.

And chomp can't set up for more than 4 turns... unless you count subbing down to a salac berry. And latios is pursuit weak, so if you're having major problems with it, pack ttar, scizor, or escavieler! It's not like Shadow Tag Shandy where you have to sack what's out rather than going to a counter or death fodder.
And chomp has notable resistances as well- rock, ELECTRIC (no twave for him!)

Also, why are we comparing Latios to Chomp? His closest comparison (bar latias, maybe) is Hydreigon. Roughly the same sp atk, only with lower speed, flamethrower, uturn, and NO PURSUIT WEAK. The lower speed hurts him a lot versus Chomp and Mence (and latis), but the pursuit resistance is a godsend against ttar, scizor, and escy (looks weird but rolls off the tongue pretty well).

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Garchomp may KO 3-4 pokes, but that's after 5+ turns of setup one shouldn't have allowed. He also cannot come back and repeat the proccess. Latios needs no setup, and can simply switch again in on one of his 6 or so resistances to fire off another DM.

1st turn: Reflect/Light Screen
2nd turn: Light Screen/Reflect
3rd turn: Switch
4th turn: Shell Smash
5th turn: Baton Pass to recipient

Yes, 5 turns that allows to murder half of the opponent's team with little to no problems thanks to screen support.
The only teams that commonly carry phazing moves are stall teams.
More offensive teams usually don't carry any phazing move whatsoever, let alone 3 - 4 freaking priority users to stop an uncommon threat.


@ Arc Tech: We're discussing the Screens + Gorebyss Baton Pass strategy

 

[masterful]

Anyone else find Latias a lot more threatening than Latios? It's kind of like CM vs TG on Manaphy. While Latios is really powerful, Latias, IMO poses a much bigger long term threat with its better bulk. Calm Mind Latias with something like Tyranitar removed can cause so much more damage than Specs Latios, IMO.

CM Latias ends up being a much weaker poke with slightly better physical defense and inconsequentially better special defense that can't net the KOs that Latios can and gets worn down easily by status.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I JUST had a battle against someone using the Screen + Gorebyss strategy and just BARELY won:

Hide

Battle between dunno and Kefka Palazzo started!

Tier: Standard OU
Variation: +21, -10
Rule: Rated
Rule: Sleep Clause
Rule: Species Clause
Rule: Wifi Battle

at ease is watching the battle.
at ease stopped watching the battle.
Kefka Palazzo sent out Deoxys-S!
dunno sent out Deoxys-S!
Deoxys-S is exerting its Pressure!
The foe's Deoxys-S is exerting its Pressure!

Start of turn 1
The foe's Deoxys-S used Magic Coat!
The foe's Deoxys-S shrouded itself with Magic Coat!

Deoxys-S used Taunt!
Deoxys-S's Taunt was bounced back by Magic Coat!
Deoxys-S fell for the taunt!

Kefka Palazzo: yay

Start of turn 2
Kefka Palazzo called Deoxys-S back!
Kefka Palazzo sent out Ferrothorn! (Nattorei)

The foe's Deoxys-S used Reflect!
Reflect raised dunno's team defense!

Start of turn 3
The foe's Deoxys-S used Taunt!
Ferrothorn fell for the taunt!

Ferrothorn used Power Whip!
The foe's Deoxys-S lost 25% of its health!

Start of turn 4
Kefka Palazzo called Ferrothorn back!
Kefka Palazzo sent out Deoxys-S!

Deoxys-S is exerting its Pressure!
The foe's Deoxys-S used Light Screen!
Light Screen raised dunno's team special defense!

Start of turn 5
The foe's Deoxys-S used Taunt!
Deoxys-S fell for the taunt!

Deoxys-S used Superpower!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Deoxys-S lost 8% of its health!
Deoxys-S's Attack fell!
Deoxys-S's Defense fell!

Start of turn 6
Kefka Palazzo called Deoxys-S back!
Kefka Palazzo sent out Ferrothorn! (Nattorei)

dunno called Deoxys-S back!
dunno sent out Gorebyss!

Start of turn 7
The foe's Gorebyss used Substitute!
The foe's Gorebyss made a substitute!

Ferrothorn used Leech Seed!
The foe's Gorebyss's substitute blocked Leech Seed!

Start of turn 8
The foe's Gorebyss used Shell Smash!
The foe's Gorebyss's Defense fell!
The foe's Gorebyss's Sp. Def. fell!
The foe's Gorebyss's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Gorebyss's Sp. Att. sharply rose!
The foe's Gorebyss's Speed sharply rose!
The foe's Gorebyss restored its stats using white herb!

Ferrothorn used Power Whip!
The attack of Ferrothorn missed!

Start of turn 9
The foe's Gorebyss used Baton Pass!
dunno called Gorebyss back!
dunno sent out Latios!
Kefka Palazzo: T_T

Ferrothorn used Power Whip!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Latios's substitute took the damage!

Dunno's reflect wore off!

Start of turn 10
The foe's Latios used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Ferrothorn lost 352 HP! (100% of its health)
Ferrothorn fainted!

Kefka Palazzo sent out Deoxys-S!

Deoxys-S is exerting its Pressure!

Start of turn 11
The foe's Latios used Dragon Pulse!
Deoxys-S lost 240 HP! (99% of its health)
Deoxys-S hung on using its focus sash!

Deoxys-S used Psycho Boost!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Latios's substitute faded!
Deoxys-S's Sp. Att. sharply fell!

Dunno's light screen wore off!

Start of turn 12
The foe's Latios used Dragon Pulse!
Deoxys-S lost 1 HP! (0% of its health)
Deoxys-S fainted!

Kefka Palazzo sent out Jirachi!

Start of turn 13
The foe's Latios used Hidden Power!
It's super effective!
Jirachi lost 236 HP! (58% of its health)

Jirachi used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Latios is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Jirachi restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 14
Jirachi used Iron Head!
The foe's Latios lost 36% of its health!

The foe's Latios flinched!

Jirachi restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
The foe's Latios restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 15
Jirachi used Iron Head!
A critical hit!
The foe's Latios lost 69% of its health!
The foe's Latios fainted!

Jirachi restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Kefka Palazzo: :D
dunno sent out Borutorosu!

Start of turn 16
The foe's Borutorosu used Thunder Wave!
Jirachi is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Jirachi used Wish!

Jirachi restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 17
dunno called Borutorosu back!
dunno sent out Deoxys-S!

The foe's Deoxys-S is exerting its Pressure!
Jirachi used Thunder Wave!
The foe's Deoxys-S is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Jirachi's wish came true!

Start of turn 18
The foe's Deoxys-S used Reflect!
Reflect raised dunno's team defense!

Jirachi is paralyzed! It can't move!

Start of turn 19
dunno called Deoxys-S back!
dunno sent out Gorebyss!

Jirachi used Iron Head!
It's not very effective...
The foe's Gorebyss lost 6% of its health!

Start of turn 20
Kefka Palazzo called Jirachi back!
Kefka Palazzo sent out Doryuuzu!

Doryuuzu is floating on a balloon!
The foe's Gorebyss used Substitute!
The foe's Gorebyss made a substitute!

Start of turn 21
Doryuuzu used Earthquake!
The foe's Gorebyss's substitute faded!

The foe's Gorebyss used Shell Smash!
The foe's Gorebyss's Defense fell!
The foe's Gorebyss's Sp. Def. fell!
The foe's Gorebyss's Attack sharply rose!
The foe's Gorebyss's Sp. Att. sharply rose!
The foe's Gorebyss's Speed sharply rose!

Start of turn 22
The foe's Gorebyss used Surf!
It's super effective!
Doryuuzu lost 361 HP! (100% of its health)
Doryuuzu fainted!

Kefka Palazzo sent out Slowbro!

Start of turn 23
The foe's Gorebyss used Substitute!
The foe's Gorebyss made a substitute!

Slowbro used Psychic!
A critical hit!
The foe's Gorebyss's substitute faded!

Start of turn 24
The foe's Gorebyss used Baton Pass!
dunno called Gorebyss back!
dunno sent out Garchomp!

Slowbro used Psychic!
The foe's Garchomp lost 62% of its health!

The foe's Garchomp restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 25
The foe's Garchomp used Earthquake!
Slowbro lost 309 HP! (78% of its health)

Slowbro used Psychic!
The foe's Garchomp lost 43% of its health!
The foe's Garchomp fainted!

Dunno's reflect wore off!
Slowbro restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
dunno sent out Borutorosu!
Kefka Palazzo: yay

Start of turn 26
Kefka Palazzo called Slowbro back!
Kefka Palazzo sent out Jirachi!

The foe's Borutorosu used Thunderbolt!
A critical hit!
Kefka Palazzo: D:
Jirachi lost 292 HP! (72% of its health)
The foe's Borutorosu is hurt by its Life Orb!

Jirachi restored a little HP using its Leftovers!

Start of turn 27
The foe's Borutorosu used Thunderbolt!
Jirachi lost 137 HP! (33% of its health)
Jirachi fainted!
The foe's Borutorosu is hurt by its Life Orb!

Kefka Palazzo sent out Chandelure! (Shandera)

Start of turn 28
dunno called Borutorosu back!
dunno sent out Deoxys-S!

The foe's Deoxys-S is exerting its Pressure!
Chandelure used Nitro Charge!
The foe's Deoxys-S lost 12% of its health!
Chandelure's Speed rose!

Start of turn 29
Chandelure used Shadow Ball!
It's super effective!
The foe's Deoxys-S lost 53% of its health!
The foe's Deoxys-S fainted!

dunno sent out Borutorosu!

Start of turn 30
The foe's Borutorosu used Thunder Wave!
Chandelure is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Chandelure used Fire Blast!
The foe's Borutorosu lost 80% of its health!
The foe's Borutorosu fainted!

dunno sent out Gorebyss!

Start of turn 31
The foe's Gorebyss used Surf!
It's super effective!
Chandelure lost 260 HP! (99% of its health)

Chandelure used Shadow Ball!
The foe's Gorebyss lost 18% of its health!
The foe's Gorebyss fainted!

Kefka Palazzo: ;D
dunno sent out Nattorei!

Start of turn 32
Chandelure used Fire Blast!
It's super effective!

Freakin ridiculous.