In-Game Tier List Discussion

[breh]

I'll think about making Ducklett crash to Low with the other shmucks. After a second glance... he's REALLY bad.

You guys are kidding, right?

Have you ever actually played with Ducklett? It starts with 3 STAB moves that have decent power (65 and 60 are far from bad at this point in the game) and only gets better from there. It hits surprisingly hard, believe it or not, and Roost/Featherdance is really nice. Air Slash, when you get it, is fantastic. The gym that it comes before has a type disadvantage against it, which helps training. Water/Flying is a really nice typing too and the ground resistance is pleasant. When it evolves, it gains nice 87/87 offenses (better than Seismitoad's by a bit) and, later, wonderful STABs in the form of Surf and Fly. Roost has surprising utility (yes, I know potions exist, but am I the only one who thinks it's a pain in the arse to have to fly from the middle of the route to a center because you run out of healing items?)

At the very least, to me, it would seem like it sucks less than freaking Pidove...

(on a side note, at the same time I got Ducklett, I got Vanillite, which may have affected my opinion, since is just awful until it gets to mid evo (at which point it+eviolite is really nice)... I really don't remember that many issues with Ducklett TBH; all I did was just featherdance most enemies and then go from there).

 

[IOS]

It starts with 3 STAB moves that have decent power (65 and 60 are far from bad at this point in the game)

44 Atk/Spatk

It hits surprisingly hard, believe it or not, and Roost/Featherdance is really nice. Air Slash, when you get it, is fantastic.

44 Atk/Spatk

The gym that it comes before has a type disadvantage against it, which helps training. Water/Flying is a really nice typing too and the ground resistance is pleasant.

44 Atk/Spatk

When it evolves, it gains nice 87/87 offenses (better than Seismitoad's by a bit)

Seismitoad didn't have 44 Atk/Spatk until Level 35

and, later, wonderful STABs in the form of Surf and Fly.

Too little, too late

Roost has surprising utility (yes, I know potions exist, but am I the only one who thinks it's a pain in the arse to have to fly from the middle of the route to a center because you run out of healing items?)

I have literally never run out of healing items. Plan better.

At the very least, to me, it would seem like it sucks less than freaking Pidove...

Not really when you consider that Tranquill would have had a great movepool if it had a decent Spatk. And Tranquill has a higher Spatk then Ducklett so...

 

[IcyMan28]

Tranquill's base SpA is a mere 6 points higher, but Ducklett has higher base power moves that Air Cutter in the form of Bubblebeam and an earlier Air Slash, and you get it at a pretty good level.

Considering that the ground gym consists of Krokorok and Drilbur for the most part, it really isn't hard to train at all.

 

[TheSubwayMaster]

You tell me good sir. You tell me what doesn't make it Low Tier.

Was that meant to be snarky, offensive, a joke, or informative for me?

Once I took a closer look, it is indeed bad. 44/44 offensives, weaker attacks than Sigilyph, and really, if you are using Oshawott and Sigilyph, this bird isn't necessary. BUT, to me, it isn't as bad as Pidove. Pidove has a worse movepool, though better stats, and has no real utility except for Fly. If you lag it around for fly, the moveset will be Return/Fly/Roost/Aerial Ace at the BEST. Note that you will be stuck with Quick Attack for a LONG time. After all this though, I wouldn't mind with both of them at Low.

 

[IOS]

Was that meant to be snarky, offensive, a joke, or informative for me?

Once I took a closer look, it is indeed bad. 44/44 offensives, weaker attacks than Sigilyph, and really, if you are using Oshawott and Sigilyph, this bird isn't necessary. BUT, to me, it isn't as bad as Pidove. Pidove has a worse movepool, though better stats, and has no real utility except for Fly. If you lag it around for fly, the moveset will be Return/Fly/Roost/Aerial Ace at the BEST. Note that you will be stuck with Quick Attack for a LONG time. After all this though, I wouldn't mind with both of them at Low.

Makes more sense to catch a Tranquill in Route 6 so you don't have to deal with Pidove.

 

[TheSubwayMaster]

That sounds like the most efficient way to use Unfezant, if at all. If Colonel M could put that as a note, that would be nice.

 

[breh]

I'll put it this way.

Assume evolution is complete. You have two pokemon. One has Water/Flying coverage, the other Normal/Flying.

Which do you choose? Even better, which do you box when the going gets tough?

 

[LeviLamprey]

Swanna all the way. Unfezant is ugly and has poor coverage, while Swanna is balanced, realtively fast and gets Ice/Water/Flying coverage.

 

[IOS]

I'll put it this way.

Assume evolution is complete. You have two pokemon. One has Water/Flying coverage, the other Normal/Flying.

Which do you choose? Even better, which do you box when the going gets tough?

Ducklett has 10 levels of being absolute garbage. Tranquill at least has some moves that go off its 77 atk (Return and Fly) while Swanna is doomed to going off a 44 offensive stat. Plus Tranquill is quicker. Tranquill is much more usable before they both evolve, and Tranquill evolves three levels sooner then Ducklett anyways.

 

[jumpluff]

44 Atk/Spatk

But Swanna has an exhilarating base SpA that amply compensates for all of its ... oh ...

Roost is a good move but ingame there's less need for 50% recovery moves imo, since you have basically infinite money and can get healing items very regularly. Something like Giga Drain or even Leech Seed is nice because you are depriving your opponent of HP while restoring your own, but you might as well Hyper Potion if you're just going to Roost.

I'm going to give Solosis a shot next playthrough. It's slow, yes, and frail, but I hope Eviolite will help compensate for that, while it has power behind it, and Reuniclus is quite bulky (once you get it there). Seems to me like it won't be an all-star but is quite usable. It's a huge shame Calm Mind isn't a level-up move for the line, since TM04 is post-game. :/

 

[TheSubwayMaster]

Surf/Air Slash/Blizzard is too little, too late, as IOS said. They both have to go through their poor periods. These bad times are the reason they are so bad. One has 44/44 offenses for a while and one has to rely on Quick Attack and Gust for a while. The latter can be kinda avoided, but in the long run, Swanna is better. Because of this, I propose that they both are in Low Tier. They are both pretty bad, and right now, we aren't supposed to argue something above something else.

 

[breh]

Again, you'd be surprised how quickly those levels go by. If anybody read my original post, you'd notice that I paired it with Vanillite at the same time, which was competing for experience alongside it. I.E. half of the ground gym went to it, and only half. IIRC it was level 30 or something like that by the end... I hope my point is relatively clear.

And @ Jumpluff: No, it does not have amazing SpA, but people still use Seismitoad, don't they?

 

[jumpluff]

Sure, and Seismitoad isn't hot shit either. It's stuck with woeful SpA until Lv. 36, when it gets an upgrade after all that training into... mediocre SpA! By that time everything else is still better than it, though I guess it at least gets nice moves that augment it a little. There are better Water-types in the game, although most of Unova's Water-types suck too. Granted I only used it in one playthrough so for a better assessment I might use it in my next. On the bright side, Seismi has good HP.

It comes earlier than Ducklett + Swanna too, I might remind you.

 

[buckeyemaniac]

Just finished the game, here's what I found

Tepig: Didn't use a whole lot early on, was pretty powerful mid-late game. Had really nice type coverage. High

Lillipup: Used it pretty much exclusively early on, movepool was weak though and boxed it by the fourth gym. Mid-High

Pansage: Had to pretty much be babied until it learned Seed Bomb, was decent after that. Boxed it for Deerling around mid game. Mid

Sandile: Absolutely amazing. Ground and Dark really goes a long way in this game, and Moxie meant you could sweep through a team out of your league. Used it for pretty much the entire Elite Four. Top

Ducklett: Was fairly weak, never really used it and any time I did it was really frail. Low-Mid

Deerling: Had to be babied a bit, once it hit L37 was one of my top guys. Horn Leech is nuts for going through long routes/grinding without having to detour to a Pokemon Center. Upper Mid

Joltik: Solid, but not amazing. High accuracy Thunder was nice, can't really take a hit well though. Upper Mid

Solosis: High Special Attack, but too slow for in game. Low Mid

 

[R_N]

(on a side note, at the same time I got Ducklett, I got Vanillite, which may have affected my opinion, since is just awful until it gets to mid evo (at which point it+eviolite is really nice)... I really don't remember that many issues with Ducklett TBH; all I did was just featherdance most enemies and then go from there).

I also used Vanillite.
I had next to no problems with it and it was dealing some very good damage with Icy Wind. Lots of near KOs, and it could generally survive a hit, allowing it take advantage of the speed drop and ko on the next turn.

Little guy (well, gal in my case) pulled through for me a number of times since I picked him up.

edit: And I didn't even use the eviolite on him until after the Iccirus gym.

 

[Shotoetoe]

I said it before: Good attack and speed stat, stab return and fly, work up and roost. That's all a Tranquill/ an Unfezant needs, and it gets all of that by the time you have ducklett.
Add in super luck and scope lens and it kicks ingame butt.

I personally don't see what makes Swanna superior. Coverage is all good and well, but if you're looking for a flying type and not nessecairily a water type, Unfezant hits a lot harder. It's not like I'm going to send it out against rock types anyway.

Either ducklett should be banished to low tier, or pidove to mid. I support the latter.

(finally again: air cutter, super luck, scope lens. Really don't judge it until you've seen the crazy crits)

 

[NDenizen]

I think with In-Game tiers you have to consider general usage. Ducklett's ability as a HM Slave, especially in a gen with few Water Types, makes it significant. Plus Swanna's Rain Dance + Hurricane can be a bitch.

 

[Arcanite]

Again, you'd be surprised how quickly those levels go by. If anybody read my original post, you'd notice that I paired it with Vanillite at the same time, which was competing for experience alongside it. I.E. half of the ground gym went to it, and only half. IIRC it was level 30 or something like that by the end... I hope my point is relatively clear.

And @ Jumpluff: No, it does not have amazing SpA, but people still use Seismitoad, don't they?

I can attest, Ducklett is by no means bad, it kills what it should, and you et scald before any more major battles.

 

[IOS]

I think with In-Game tiers you have to consider general usage. Ducklett's ability as a HM Slave, especially in a gen with few Water Types, makes it significant. Plus Swanna's Rain Dance + Hurricane can be a bitch.

HMs are far less important in this game. Besides Cut (which you use once after the first gym), no HMs are required to beat the game.

 

[Heysup]

I actually think Pidove can be moved up at least one tier. You get it very early and after the first Gym's TM (Work Up), you can annihilate a couple Gyms very easily since it gets Roost at lvl 18. For some reason, even a slightly under-leveled Pidove can avoid being 2HKOed and can use that opportunity to set up Work Up and then Roost off the damage. It has no problem sweeping with Quick Attack and Air Cutter. Not to mention you can use it to Fly once you acquire the HM.

 

[Showsni]

HMs are far less important in this game. Besides Cut (which you use once after the first gym), no HMs are required to beat the game.

Not required just to beat the Elite Four, no, but without access to Fly and Surf I daresay the game would be a lot more tedious and have several unaccessible areas.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Not required just to beat the Elite Four, no, but without access to Fly and Surf I daresay the game would be a lot more tedious and have several unaccessible areas.

Surf really isn't important at all unless you want to get the musketeer trio. Fly is, as always, just a convenience, and Archeops/Sigilyph is probably a better choice for that.

 

[Chieliee]

HMs are far less important in this game. Besides Cut (which you use once after the first gym), no HMs are required to beat the game.

Do you want to miss:
This
This
This
This
+ A LOT of items, and the ability to revisit any town in just a matter of seconds?

Probably not.

EDIT: i thought about it for a while, and i agree HM slaves are not absolutely necessary(excuse the spelling, i hate that word) to advance through the game. But when you get a poke who gets STAB on two powerful HM moves, that is a reason to give it a high spot on the list

 

[Odinwolf]

Just completed the main game. Here are my thoughts on the pogeys I used:

Oshawott line: Very good companions for the main adventure. Scald is a great move once you can teach it to them. Aqua Jet actually saved me against N's Archeops in the final battle. Megahorn (which you can learn at the move-relearner) is great against dark types and having access to Grass Knot was helpful since I didn't take a dedicated grass or electric type to handle waters. Top Tier.

Fire Monkey (monkeys in general): Worth keeping in your party until you find a replacement, but definitely not past that. Ditched Pansear as soon as I had access to Darumaka and never looked back. Victini is another fire option that you can get by the third gym. In fact, I don't see a reason to start with Tepig this gen unless you just love fire starters, because fire is really well represented in this gen. Pan/Simipour might be the only monkey worth keeping around, since waters are a little under-represented early in this gen. Mid-Low Tier.

Lillipup line: Decent, but tapers off about the fifth or sixth gym. I leveled one to 32 and then realized it was just languishing in my party, rarely getting experience unless I stuck an EXP share on it. It will serve you well early and might be worthwhile just for the Intimidate ability later, but there are better 'mons to take into the E4. Middle Tier.

Emolga: Really wanted to make this guy fit into my team but he got ditched after just a little while of traveling with me. It would have probably stuck around if it learned Fly, but it was frail and not really getting it done for me against Water/Fighting pokes so he was boxed and ignored. Mid-Low Tier methinks.

Darumaka line: So clutch. Yes, until it evolves into Darmanitan, it can be unreliable, but it hits so hard it doesn't really matter. Fire and Fighting moves mean he handles grass, steel, bug and dark like a champ. This thing was a total beast for me. Top tier all the way.

Zorua/Zoroark: Picked up my Zorua before the third gym and decided that I would stick to keeping it in my party for this playthrough... but he honestly doesn't do much for you. His defenses are meh, his attacks are OK but the pure dark typing doesn't really help him shred like he might have with a secondary offensive typing. He even failed against the Ghost and Psychic E4 leaders, leaving Samurott and Haxorus to pick up the slack. Mid-Low Tier.

Axew line: As I said earlier in the thread, this guy is a must-have for your first playthrough just due to the combination of DD/SD and False Swipe. It's the perfect pokemon catcher. I never missed a single target along the way, including legendaries, thanks to his skills. It also helps to have a +2 boosted Dragon claw when you to the final couple of battles. Top Tier.

Golett line: I wasn't planning on using this guy, but once I picked one up I just fell in love with it for some reason. It's one of my new favorite pogeys. Ghost/Ground means its immune to a lot of incoming attacks and it learns FLY so you don't have to waste a slot in your party on Swanna if you didn't take Archeops as a fossil. He is also decently fast, which is surprising given that he looks like a giant golem. The main thing holding this guy back is that in the late game EVERYONE is carrying a dark type or at least a dark attack for coverage, so he's not terribly effective once you reach the E4. He can, however, be a monster for the last couple of gyms for you. High-to-Mid Tier, but not Top.

Cubchoo/Beartic: I couldn't bring myself to play with the stupid ice-cream cone pokemon, even though Ice types are my favorite. So I picked up a late Cubchoo and tried to level him up in time for the E4. Sadly he's not great against the 'mons on Victory Road and just didn't serve a purpose other than "switch something in to die so I can use a Max Revive on my good pokes" during the E4 battles. Low Tier, although he might be better if you could grab him earlier in the game. I might have to trade one over to my copy of White for my new playthrough.

 

[EEVEE3]

So far in my run I've been using Tepig, Solosis, Joltik, Roggenrola as my team, and I just got the 6th badge.

Tepig: Pretty good coverage, and as pretty good attack. (maybe because I was using just it until I caught Roggenrola, but whatever) High

Roggenrola: I had access to evolve him into Gigalith, which I did right after the electric gym. He's awesome and as great Defense and Attack. I really don't mind his crappy Speed when he's KOing everything in sight with STAB Rock moves and he also has Headbutt when you catch him. High(with access to Gigalith)

Solosis: When I initailly caught him, I put him with Exp. Share for a while, but after he learned Recover and Psyshock, everything was being KOed by his monster SpA. Again, Speed wasn't really an issue, as he could take hits pretty well. Mid-High(early catch, but reliance on Hidden Power for offense sucks a bit)

Joltik: Only a recent member, but still an excellent one. Volt Switch is great when you're training him, because it lets him hold the Lucky Egg you got and get the bonus Exp. Charge Beam is a great TM that you get soon after, and the next Gym is Flying so you can easily train him there. Mid-High(because of coming rather late)