In-Game Tier List Discussion

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White runthrough team recap and tiering options.

Reuniclus - Unfortunately it was too slow to be particularly effective and was annoying to train until level 42 as without the Eviolite it was stupidly frail. However its power level and coverage were great even without obtaining Focus Blast. Probably mid or mid low tier.

Krookodile - This thing sucked a pretty big dick until it evolved into Krook at which point it became average. The second I hit Victory Road it was essentially the only thing I used, sweeping everybody bar Ghetsis's Hydreigon and Marshal. High tier for awesome sweepage.

Unfezant - Again, why all the hate? It has very nice bulk on the physical side and an absolutely usable attack stat. Super Luck meant that its flying Stab wasn't too bad until it got fly and with Return and Fly it was hitting harder than anything bar a +1 Krookodile. Med or High (Med-High).

Lilligant - I had such high expectations for this thing taking forever to get a Own Tempo one. Unfortunately it...sucked. It had no appreciable bulk to speak of and had to rely on the weak Magical Leaf for damage. by the time I beat the E4 it hadn't even got Petal Dance which I imagine would have made it suck a little less.

Vanilluxe - I enjoyed using him. He lagged a bit before evolving he first time but nice physical bulk meant that it completely raped the last gym quickly getting to Vanulluxe. Medium tier.

Scolipede - The opposite Krookodile he sucked in boss fights but raped the rest of the game. Between him and Krook I had the game covered. Med tier.
 
Just had my first runthrough on White version, and here are my opinions on the poke's I used:

Samurott: High Tier. Mine was a quiet nature, which is naturally a double-edged sword. On one hand, it can kill things more easily, such as OHKOing Bianca's Tepig when it was level 7 and my Oshawott was level 10. On the other hand, it gets outsped easily. Then again, it's not exactly a speed demon naturally, so it worked out well IMO. It held it's own for pretty much the entire game w/ Surf, Megahorn, Blizzard, and Aqua Jet. However, it would've been nice to have the Ice Beam TM before postgame, so as to deal w/ Ghetsis's Hydreigon and not miss. I probably could've given it Grass Knot, but I didn't want it to steal thunder from...

Sawsbuck: Mid-High tier. I really like it's design, and it's movepool is incredible for a grass type. It performed reasonably well w/ Horn Leech, Jump Kick, Megahorn, and Return. However, the large amount of weaknesses hurts it, as does any grass type. That, and Horn Leech could use a bit more BP. Still a very solid in-game poke, though. One of the best grass types I've ever used IMO.

Darmanitan: Top tier. Honestly, I felt like I was cheating using this guy for ingame. Even as Darumaka, it destroyed just about everything it came across. I didn't even need to give it Flare Blitz, b/c Fire Punch did the job just as well most of the time. It's a glass cannon and has accuracy issues as Darumaka, but other than that, it's stupidly broken.

Krookodile: High Tier. It's kind of weak as Sandile until you find the Dig TM, and not terribly useful until the 4th gym. From there, it starts to wreck most of the obstacles it comes across. It was pretty helpful in the later stages of the game, but I didn't use it as much then for some reason.

Haxorus: Mid-Low tier. It didn't quite live up to expectations IMO. I got an Axew right after the 6th gym, and it kind of dissapointed me. I had to baby it for almost 10 levels as Axew, and it kept dying very easily while exploring Twist Mountain. It doesn't help that the gym afterwards is Ice-type. The only place in-game I found this guy really useful was in the 8th gym, where it swept Iris's team w/ one DD, and Dragon Claw. Afterwards, it was just kind of a sitting duck. Haxorus has great attack, and decent speed, but not enough to outspeed the infamous Hydreigon mentioned earlier, which OHKO'd it w/ Dragon Pulse. It's not a bad pokemon, but for me, it was just very impractical ingame.

Emolga: High Tier. Yes, you read that right. I'm nominating a Pika-clone for high tier. To be fair, I used Minipete, the one recieved after trading for Boldore. However, it just wrecked on my ingame team. It's got great speed, sweeping potential on both sides w/ Acrobatics, T-bolt/Electroball, and it can run away w/ Volt Switch if need be (assuming the opponent isn't ground type, of course). It has very few weaknesses, neither of which are incredibly common ingame. Minipete in particular has great IV's, especially in defense, allowing it to pull off static more than I expected. It even survived a Stone Edge from Marshal's Sawk, with 30 HP to boot! I'm not sure if I would say it was the star of my team, but it is amazingly underrated, and I love it. I needed both a flyer and an electric type at the point of the game I was at, and this adorable little flying squirrel surpassed my expectations greatly. :)
 
Lilligant - I had such high expectations for this thing taking forever to get a Own Tempo one. Unfortunately it...sucked. It had no appreciable bulk to speak of and had to rely on the weak Magical Leaf for damage. by the time I beat the E4 it hadn't even got Petal Dance which I imagine would have made it suck a little less.
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You must have evolved it at the wrong level: you should be using Giga Drain as the primary damage dealing option, with Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance (and Leech Seed) as support moves. Mine did have maximum defence IV, but I found it just makes a lot of things into easy mode. Like the final battle; Lilligant just solos it no sweat. (Though, that is with Petal Dance). Poor coverage, but other than grass immunes it doesn't need coverage, as it just boosts up and OHKOs anyway.
 
I ran Big Root Own Tempo Lilligant with Quiver Dance/Leech Seed/Sleep Powder/Giga Drain

It wasn't the bulkiest thing alive, but the speed and annoyance options (she always outsped and put people to sleep if she couldn't handle something) allowed her to set up, and thanks to Big Root & Giga Drain she generally got her health back fairly quickly. A total rampaging death machine as the game went on, and there was more than a few battles where I never even touched Quiver Dance. I actually turned down Petal Dance because Giga Drain was working so well (god bless the power boost).

Just make a point to keep it around a little longer for Giga Drain, then evolve for big success.
 
Texas Cloverleaf said:
My set was the above, just with Magical Leaf>Petal Dance so I'm not sure who iwas supposed to get Giga Drain.
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Petilil gets it at level 26. By the time you get the Sun Stone, you should be nearing that level, so you just need to keep it around for a slightly longer-than-brief period before evolving. I believe I evolved mine right after/right before Elesa.
 
Speaking of Grass-types, I also believe Ferroseed should move up to high or mid-high. Amazingly bulky upon evolution, Super Repels cover its inability to run from anything barring the dreaded Foongus, Fire attacks are generally uncommon until you face Reshiram, it can use Curse to make its Gyro Ball a force to behold.... Fairly useful even as Lucky Egg Ferroseed against the Ice gym (Ice Beams are 3HKO's or so), Power Whip is amazing, roflwalls Zekrom and Ghetsis' Cofagrigus (granted it needs Curse and maybe Shadow Claw to beat it, but still,) was certainly my MVP versus the Elite Four.

I know I said this a page ago, but it seems like it's been drowned out.

If I would move anything to high, Ferroseed would be it.

Certainly not Top tier, though-Ferroseed was bulky but it died a bit more often than Ferrothorn despite the extra bulk.
 
I would also like to nominate Emolga and Munna to both move up a tier.

Emolga seems like its been getting some love, but still appears very underrated. Its attack stats aren't fantastic, but could definitely be worse and are at least balanced so from the moment you get it, you have a good STAB physical attack (Spark) and a good special attack (Shock Wave). Its speed is great; the other stats are pretty meh, but it sure did OHKO a lot of other Pokemon and it almost never died on me. It comes near the fourth badge, so about midgame, but can be obtained earlier, right after the third badge if you want. I personally got mine before I did the desert areas. It is pretty rare in the shaking grass, but I found several in the 30 minutes I took to prepare for Elesa.

From the moment you get it, it's pretty amazing. It is only weak to Rock and Ice, two uncommon types, has 5 resistances, and it has a very handy immunity to ground. Static is a good ability for bosses and catching wild Pokemon as well and Electric/Flying type coverage is pretty good. If you get it before the Desert Resort, it can basically solo that entire area with Pursuit and its Electric attacks. It learns Electro Ball at Level 26, an attack that will always do at least 90 damage with STAB, more if Emolga is much faster than its opponent, which it often will be. Then it learns Acrobatics at Level 30, and from that point on it just wrecks. It's one of only two Unova Pokemon to learn it naturally and get STAB on it, and only two other non-legendaries will do more damage with it: Archeops and Mienshao.

Additionally, it comes in handy against Elesa's Emolgas, is immune to the 5th gym's STAB, wrecks the 6th gym, and does decently against the remaining two. In short, not a Top tier Pokemon, but certainly High.

Edit: One thing I should mention is that Audino grinding is hard for Emolga, not because it's lacking offensive power, but because Static causes other wild Emolgas to appear more often instead of Audinos.

I don't have as much to say about Munna, but I did find it much more useful than the other Low tier Pokemon. It's the first Pokemon you can catch after the first gym, so it's definitely early game. It's slow as hell, but for that point in the game, it's Special Attack and defensive stats are amazing. Psybeam at Level 11 is more than enough to carry you to Level 37, where it learns Psychic and can then be evolved using a Moonstone, which is received in a mandatory event after the Second gym. Mono Psychic coverage isn't fun, but it's a useful type in-game. It gets two sleep-inducing moves, a recovery move, Dream Eater, and Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, and Charge Beam through TM, so it's not helpless in terms of coverage. Plus, it levels up very quickly.
Not top tier due to evolution level, speed and limited moveset early on, but far from low. I'd say Mid.
 
Erkurial said:
Haxorus: Mid-Low tier. It didn't quite live up to expectations IMO. I got an Axew right after the 6th gym, and it kind of dissapointed me. I had to baby it for almost 10 levels as Axew, and it kept dying very easily while exploring Twist Mountain. It doesn't help that the gym afterwards is Ice-type. The only place in-game I found this guy really useful was in the 8th gym, where it swept Iris's team w/ one DD, and Dragon Claw. Afterwards, it was just kind of a sitting duck. Haxorus has great attack, and decent speed, but not enough to outspeed the infamous Hydreigon mentioned earlier, which OHKO'd it w/ Dragon Pulse. It's not a bad pokemon, but for me, it was just very impractical ingame.
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I would be inclined to agree with this. Raising Axew to a stage where it isn't outsped and killed by everything was just too much work to be worthwhile IMO, especially when I already had Krookodile who fulfilled a similar role (albeit lacking Dragon STAB).

TM13IceBeam said:
Snivy's only other form of physical attack is...

Dragon Tail. Aerial Ace. Rock Smash. What.

well, that's crap, seriously. Leavanny doesn't suffer from the crap movepool, its the only grass type in Unova that doesn't, seriously.

Snivy's best hope is to run a bulky leech seed set with Coil/Seed/Tail/Blade. :/ Sewaddle has a way better movepool, getting X-Scissor STAB, and Shadow Claw too.
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I ran a mixed set with Leech Seed/Drains/Growth/Return that served me reasonably well. Peg stuff with Seed, tank hits and Growth up, rinse and repeat if necessary, then sweep stuff that isn't Steel-type. Later in the game above set tends to be better though I suppose.

Okay so I'd like to nominate Escavalier for at least mid. Admittedly I didn't get it until just before Iris/Drayden, but when I did, he basically soloed the entire gym, shrugging off Dragon attacks and OHKOing everything with Megahorn (yes, I bred for Megahorn) and 2HKOing with Iron Head. Even stuff that resisted his STABs was like 4HKO'd at worst by Iron Head, Durant in Victory Road was even 2HKO'd by Megahorn. If you could get it even earlier in the game I imagine it'd be just as useful, since it also wrecks Brycen and resists a ton more shit prior to that. I'd like to say Top, but I'll say Mid just for the obtainability factor (including Megahorn). Megahorn + Iron Head + Rock Smash/Reversal + Poison Jab for some reason, though the last slot is basically filler.

Megahorn, BTW, isn't that difficult to breed either. I just grabbed a male Venipede and leveled him to 30 to evolve to Scolipede, then used a heart scale for Megahorn. Scolipede also learns Pursuit which just makes breeding for that later so much easier.

EDIT: I also tried out Druddigon, who just wasn't useful at all. Slow as shit obviously, but unlike Escavalier or even Solosis/Duosioin/Reuniclus, it's offense-to-bulk ratio didn't cut it for me. Even with Dragon Claw and a whole slew of other useful TM moves I gave it by Gym 8, it was still dying too easily and not doing enough damage. Move him to Low tier, IMO... Haxorus is too much better to even bother with Druddigon, even as difficult as it is to get him fully evolved.
 
I'd like to raise the question of who (besides you) is bothering with getting a female Karrablast, raising a male Venipede into a Scolipede, breeding to get Megahorn onto the offspring, and then raising that offspring the 35-or-so levels that it needs to catch up with the team.
 
I'd like to push forward the idea of ignoring the ice gym in tiering.

The gym is a cakewalk and the idea of needing a pokemon to win in it is absurd when one considers the millions of weaknesses that ice has and the shittiness of his pokemon...
 
The ice gym only serves for Cobalion to roflstomp it while you use your 2 exp. shares to strengthen your party.

Even without Cobalion, Darmanitan, Mienfoo and Gurrdurr, heck, even Boldore. The last 3 are just near Icirrus as well.
 
kenney852 said:
Then it learns Acrobatics at Level 30, and from that point on it just wrecks. It's one of only two Unova Pokemon to learn it naturally and get STAB on it, and only two other non-legendaries will do more damage with it: Archeops and Mienshao.
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That's really not saying much. It's the third best user of Acrobatics - of like, what, seven? Not to mention that some quick napkin math indicates that Unfezant's Fly should outdamage Emolga's Acrobatics as well (even factoring in Fly's slightly lower hit rate).

I'm not saying that the rodent is terrible, but I'm just really not sold on him being high tier. Upper mid, sure, but high is a little shaky.



Also, I'm curious why in the current tiering Tympole is high tier while Panpour is mid tier. I realize that the extra Ground STAB and immunity to Electric are things that can't be dismissed, but Simipour is available much earlier than Seismitoad (the only particularly worthwhile thing Panpour learns after level 22 is Crunch), it has better offensive stats, and seems to have better options for offensive coverage (Acrobatics, Blizzard, Shadow Claw).

As a Water Pokemon, I don't think many people would argue that either are as good as Oshawatt, so it seems like Tepig is the only starter where Tympole's accessibility is really an advantage.

BubbleBeam is certainly stronger than Water Gun, but Panpour has access to Work Up to compensate somewhat. Panpour should hit 22 somewhere around Route 4 (where even Water Gun is great due to all the Sandiles and Darumakas running around), which means Scald and an evolution, giving him amazing stats for a pretty long time.

I'm not arguing that Panpour be bumped up so much as Tympole should be dropped down. Panpour doesn't seem any worse than Tympole to me, so unless the sea monkey would also be high tier except for its association with Snivy, I'm not seeing Tympole's particular strengths.
 
If you are patient enough, you can get Panpour in Pinwheel Forest, which shuts Tympole up forever.

*considering rarity isn't an issue imo with Sigilyph up there*
 
AriadosPerson said:
I'd like to raise the question of who (besides you) is bothering with getting a female Karrablast, raising a male Venipede into a Scolipede, breeding to get Megahorn onto the offspring, and then raising that offspring the 35-or-so levels that it needs to catch up with the team.
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I did :p
It was an amazing pokemon, but considering what you must go through, and evolution requires both trade and a shelmet..yea I'd say low tier.
 
TM13IceBeam said:
The ice gym only serves for Cobalion to roflstomp it while you use your 2 exp. shares to strengthen your party.

Even without Cobalion, Darmanitan, Mienfoo and Gurrdurr, heck, even Boldore. The last 3 are just near Icirrus as well.
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Also Emboar, Carracosta, Archeops, Gigear, Ferroseed, Litwick, Troh, Sawk, and Crustle.

And you'd be hard-pressed to find a team without any of those.

---

Anyway, I finished the main storyline on my game, and I have to say, I support the earlier all of mmoving Marctus up to mid. To put my reasoning into perspective, once I had taken down Reshiram, I SWEPT N WITH A LV 49 MARACTUS.

Sure, this was because he ws using Carracosta, and I hit an Evasion early on with Acupressure, but I wasn't even being 2HKO'd by Stone Edge, and I had Water Absorb. I just set up to +6/+6/+6 [I landed with +6 Evasion before Sp.Attack], and OHKO'ed his whole team, even Gigigear, only stopping to use a Full Heal after a Petal Dance.

Maractus was never really dead weight either, except at the same gys every grass-type loses against. Even then, he can help out at the Dragon one, as he should have Sucker Punch by that point. Maractus is also great agaist the Ghost E4's Jellicent and Golurk, as well as Grimsly's Krookodile, and Sucker Punch can always check a weakened mon from Caitlin. Not to mention he can give a hard blow to Marshal should need be...

[Disclaimer: My Maractus was a + Def nature/31 IV Defense, so do not try taking Carracosta's Stone Edges in that style, as I survived with ~ 13 HP.]
 
Emolga, Maractus, Escavalier and Accelgor should all be moved up, in my opinion. Emolga and Escavalier have already been discussed, as well as Maractus to some degree. It has Acupressure, a great Special Attack and a respectable Attack (11 Base Points higher than Emolgas). Accelgor outspeeds EVERYTHING, gets Giga Drain and Bug Buzz to hurt with its Base 100 Special Attack and Focus Blast, Me First for extra versatility (and the haste to use it) and Recover for restoring health (if low Defenses are a problem finding a random wild Pokemon gives you time to heal up). It outspeeds EVERYTHING and can hurt everything as well with its just-enough style movepool. Returning a Reshiram's Dragonbreath or a Cofagrigus' Shadow Ball before they touch you? Yes please! I wouldn't put it to God or High Tier, but it deserves Upper Mid, not Low.
 
But the problem with Escavalier and Accelgor are:
A. You can't even get them unless you can trade.
B. Shelmet come really late
C. Escavalier really wants megahorn, which you have to breed. That means a GTS trade is out of the question too (unless you're lucky)
(This somewhat wants to make me put my megahorn karrablasts on the GTS, for a shelmet, while holding an everstone, bwahahaha)

I perfectly agree with the quality of them, but they're very very much hindered by their availability.

Oh, I also believe Elgyem needs to be kicked down to the bottom of the list. It's horrible, I'm sorry but if you used it you know. Too slow, too frail, too shallow of a movepool. And few TM options pre E4.
 
Shotoetoe said:
But the problem with Escavalier and Accelgor are:
A. You can't even get them unless you can trade.
B. Shelmet come really late
C. Escavalier really wants megahorn, which you have to breed. That means a GTS trade is out of the question too (unless you're lucky)
(This somewhat wants to make me put my megahorn karrablasts on the GTS, for a shelmet, while holding an everstone, bwahahaha)

I perfectly agree with the quality of them, but they're very very much hindered by their availability.

Oh, I also believe Elgyem needs to be kicked down to the bottom of the list. It's horrible, I'm sorry but if you used it you know. Too slow, too frail, too shallow of a movepool. And few TM options pre E4.
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It was horrible enough for me, to OHKO everything it touched, and sweep Caitlin...

75/75/95 isn't *that* frail either.

And it is doubtlessly better than Purrloin, Denio, end-of-game birds and Heatmor :/
 
It's not all that terrible, but it generally lags behind the other available psychics. I suppose if you're playing Black and really want a psychic with that 125 base special attack, it might be worth using, but it definitely has the most shallow movepool out of what's available.
 
Raikaria said:
It was horrible enough for me, to OHKO everything it touched, and sweep Caitlin...

75/75/95 isn't *that* frail either.

And it is doubtlessly better than Purrloin, Denio, end-of-game birds and Heatmor :/
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Sure it OHKO's. But it always goes last. It takes tons of potions to keep it going. And it does generally take a lot of damage.
Dark and bug being such popular types doesn't help it either.

Well I'm happy yours swept Caitlin, but mine couldn't overcome a single shadowball, at lv 52. Of course I didn't calm mind up so whatever, maybe that's where it's at then. Generally though, when I did try calm mind, I found my Beheeyem close to fainting after the first calm mind.
 
Accelgor and Escavalier aren't horribly hindered by their ability for the many of us with friends willing to trade. And if you CBF evolving a Scolipede and Egg Moving Megahorn, X-Scissor is just fine. Swoobat is good, too, if you use a few CMs.
 
TM13IceBeam said:
FE note aside(you even got the chapter wrong), how are you gonna do Darumaka + VStar in 4th gym? The 4th gym is ELECTRIC types, known for their epic speed. Blitzle and Emolgas are gonna outspeed you every day, and they all take neutral dmg from Fire Punch. Victini is only from an event as well, and there are no doubles in Nimbasa Gym. :/
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Um..no, you do fight the BK in 4-E-2. I know you also fight him in 3-7, but if you kill him there it's pointless.

I meant 3rd gym. Yeah, Victini is event only, but it only has to be in your party for it to work. It doesn't have to be doubles, I think. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
 
You should have seen Citizen's post... but never mind, I'll spoil it for you, you are supposed to have Ike attack BK in 3-7, both survive, and if its ur 2nd PT and BK was deployed in 1-E, you get Sephiran in 4-E-5. As BK 2HKOs Ike, it is imperative for Ike to hit 27 speed to avoid getting doubled. That was what I meant.

Also, if you are gonna use Darumaka + Victory Star, why not simply have Victini solo the gym? Victory Star only works in doubles/triples anyway.
 
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