Sawk was neither of those things in my play through... The point is that it's incredibly unlikely that Sawk won't be getting any Speed EVs, and you're party level is going to be higher than that of the trainers (I used Repels pretty much in my entire run through with Sawk, and this was still true). Not one of those things means that you are over-leveled or that you psuedo EV trained anything, so I really don't see your point.
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In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
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you said he will make up for it with level advantages. most pokemon make up for their shortcoming with level advantages. im not saying he is terrible, he is a good pokemon but not uber like some of you are saying. easily high tier but not the sole uber pokemon.
Yeah, and the level advantages gives him a speed advantage over the Sandile line (until Krookodile in the E4). Timburr and Throh don't have that same boon unless they are at least 10-15 levels above the same Sandile that Sawk outspeeds with only a 3-4 level advantage. That's the point I'm making. Sawks base speed is overcome for the most part by the slight level advantage that you as a trainer get as well as the EVs that the opponents do not have. Timburr and Throh need significantly more EVs and a much higher level advantage to have the same speed advantage Sawk has.
but both are bulkier so its a trade off. i personally prefer bulk over speed but its different for everybody.
If you want to screw Eviolite, you can trade Timburr immediately once it evolves, which would happen around Nimbasa City. Has way higher Attack than Sawk, slow enough for Payback, and possesses bulk that Sawk can only dream of. Sawk is also difficult to train after Nacrene Gym, when it's simpler to just have Timburr in the lead and Rock Throw any Sewaddles or Venipedes you see, while spamming Low Kick and Wake-Up Slaps on Plasma Grunts.
Timburr with ability to trade > Black Sawk >=Timburr without ability to trade >>> White Sawk.
Really, Timburr can also wreck Castelia Gym with Rock Throw, but Sawk can't. (although Castelia Gym is hardly even a challenge lol). Rock Throw is the factor that decides everything for Timburr, it allows Timburr to damage Bugs when Sawk can't. By Nimbasa, Timburr should be close to Gurdurr, and once it hits LV 25 you can insta-upgrade to Conkeldurr, while getting Payback at the same time, and BAM! Bye Sawk. we hardly knew ye.
Conkeldurr, in addition to better stats, gets the vital moves earlier than Sawk. Conkeldurr gets Bulk Up earlier than Sawk, and when Sawk gets Bulk Up, Conkeldurr gets Rock Slide, boosted by Sheer Force(if Conkeldurr has it). Sawk doesn't learn anything else useful from Bulk Up until Close Combat, but in that period, Conkeldurr gets the one move that seals the deal: Hammer Arm.
Conkeldurr's sole disadvantage over Sawk is that it has way lower Speed, but Conkeldurr can use it to his advantage with Payback.
Timburr with ability to trade > Black Sawk >=Timburr without ability to trade >>> White Sawk.
Really, Timburr can also wreck Castelia Gym with Rock Throw, but Sawk can't. (although Castelia Gym is hardly even a challenge lol). Rock Throw is the factor that decides everything for Timburr, it allows Timburr to damage Bugs when Sawk can't. By Nimbasa, Timburr should be close to Gurdurr, and once it hits LV 25 you can insta-upgrade to Conkeldurr, while getting Payback at the same time, and BAM! Bye Sawk. we hardly knew ye.
Conkeldurr, in addition to better stats, gets the vital moves earlier than Sawk. Conkeldurr gets Bulk Up earlier than Sawk, and when Sawk gets Bulk Up, Conkeldurr gets Rock Slide, boosted by Sheer Force(if Conkeldurr has it). Sawk doesn't learn anything else useful from Bulk Up until Close Combat, but in that period, Conkeldurr gets the one move that seals the deal: Hammer Arm.
Conkeldurr's sole disadvantage over Sawk is that it has way lower Speed, but Conkeldurr can use it to his advantage with Payback.
let's get a discussion on moving Crustle to top, i gave my reason in my previous post.
I presume the reasons against it would include shit speed and terrible typing for defence (two of the worst resistances trololol). However, it does have an admittedly nice levelup movepool and the ability to kick boss ass with shell break (just a note, you get this right after chargestone by move tutor).
It seems like one of those pokes you need to try to see work.
Not really. He needs Sturdy to even approach Uber, so the extra hunt required to find a good Sturdy Sawk needs to be factored in. Having Sturdy isn't a disadvantage, but needing to find it is.
Since you (it might have been someone else) were arguing that Sawk was above Uber in a tier of his own, it is most appropriate to compare him to the other Uber candidates.
Agreed.
The biggest problem with that argument is that both those example moves suck (Wild Charge isn't that bad, but it's simply too late in the game and there aren't that many Pokemon who need it). If you look at stuff like Excadrill's X-Scissor or Simipour's Acrobatics, though, you'll see that good coverage moves can make a huge difference. If you aren't fighting something that can 1-shot you, being able to kill it in 1-2 hits even if it resists your STAB makes all the difference.
If you don't want to look up every trainer battle or if you don't want one Pokemon to get all of a Gym's experience, you're going to find encounters where you don't have a type advantage. That means you can either switch and take an attack to the face, you can use your STAB and hope for the best, or you can resort to a coverage move.
So you're saying that Sawk is good for his 85 Speed, not his 125 Attack. Interesting theory.
Also, you need to remember that between Fire Fang/Punch and Dig, very, very little will survive an attack from Darumaka, meaning that his "significant advantage" is over basically everything that doesn't outspeed and 1-shot him.
Sawk really, really isn't all that fast. Just because he's the fastest Fighting type until extremely late doesn't mean that he won't be outsped by all sorts of stuff that he should be countering.
So long as it doesn't resist Fire (or outspeed and 1-shot), Darmanitan's Flare Blitz will kill nearly anything in the Elite 4. Look at the math (ignore IVs, EV's, and nature, assume level 50 against an 80 Def 'mon):
Damage = (.44 * 145/80 * 120 + 2) * 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.2 (Charcoal) * [.85..1]
= [194..228]
Even Fire Punch is [122..144]
You only face Sandile and Krokorok for the entirety of the game (besides the E4), so this is irrelevant.
No it doesn't. Zangoose was top tier in RSE. If availability in all versions were to be included, he'd be mid at best. And HGSS Scyther was even rarer than Sawk in its version.
You obviously haven't bothered testing the poke. I had one with Inner Focus on one of my playthroughs, and it performed amazingly. It's just even better with Sturdy.
lol you just made that up. Go reread my posts, i've claimed nothing of the sort.
Also Sawk has near perfect coverage since as early as Desert Resort (Rock Tomb+ Retaliate), and gets an upgrade with Rock Slide after the 6th gym too. So his coverage is hardly limited.
Was THAT what you understood from my point? lol I'm speechless.
Same about Sawk. Only he does that since earlier on in the game.
"Just because"? The fact that he's the fastest Fighting-type means he can one-shot the insane amount of Fighting-weak pokes in this game without taking any damage- even when outsped, there's always Sturdy to account for, and he'll never fail to KO the pokes he's supposed to. Name ONE pokemon Sawk "is supposed to counter" but can't due to his low (compared to overkills like Emolga or Snivy at least) speed. Also note that he has base 85 speed since b4 the 2nd gym, when he outspeeds nearly everything. Only in the middle of the game does he start to be "outsped and outdamaged" (and even then, this happens rarely). You seem to ignore that Sawk is THE undisputable best pokemon for about halfway through, when you start meeting more evolved pokes.
Including itself after recoil. And no, it can't OHKO Ghetsis's Bouffalant, Eelectross, Cofagrigus, and the other defensive juggernauts in the E4, while the offensive powerhouses outspeed and take care of it the other way.
I'm by no means undermining Darumakka, it's still imo an amazing pokemon, possibly even slightly better than Sawk- this doesn't mean that Sawk doesn't deserve Uber tier though. It's MUCH better than anything else in high.
@spweasel: You make comments that show lack of experience with Sawk - despite him being rarely "outdamaged" or "outsped", he still never fails to achieve the KOs you'd expect him to. Try using a poke b4 commenting on it.
Also for the purposes of clarification, High = Uber, there is nothing above High aside from Reshi and Zekrom.
i have used sawk. i've tried to use him on 2 runs and both times he left me dissapointed and i just switched to a conkeldurr who was much more reliable. don't htink just because i don't like him doesn't mean i haven't tried him. i've used just about every pokemon in the 3 3 runs i've done of the game.
anyway, crustle is actually really good in game. his typing is actually pretty good in game and stealth rock is actually pretty great on some of hte battles. he also learns a lot of good moves pretty quickly and has amazing defense(he even took special water attacks pretty well).
anyway, crustle is actually really good in game. his typing is actually pretty good in game and stealth rock is actually pretty great on some of hte battles. he also learns a lot of good moves pretty quickly and has amazing defense(he even took special water attacks pretty well).
I just lost a very long post to a misclick, so I'll summarize:
- You intentionally misquoted me, Vladimir. That's not cool.
I said in the part that you cut out that it might not have been you specifically who said that Sawk was above Uber. Looking back it was Kikuichimonji. With how you've been trying to convince me that Sawk is better than Darmanitan, though, it wasn't unreasonable to think it was you who said it.
- I take it you haven't tested or even run the numbers for Darmanitan against Ghetsis, which would make you a bit of a hypocrite. Against Bouffalant it might come down to level, nature, IV, or EV for whether or not he is OHKOd (he shouldn't need more than average EVs/IVs, but with both at 0 he comes up a little short), but it is wrong to say that Darmanitan "can't" OHKO him. Eelektross doesn't even need even average IVs. Sure, Cofagrigus isn't a good matchup for him, but any Dark or Steel Pokemon will be able to take him out with extremely little effort.
Even against offensive Pokemon, Darmanitan will generally have a speed advantage. Against Ghetsis, the only thing that doesn't have a Base Speed at least 20 points lower is Hydreigon. N's team seems almost specially designed to be a bad matchup for Darmanitan (since they tend to be very fast and half his team resist Fire), but the Elite 4 is actually pretty slow since only Krookodile, Liepard, Sigilyph, Sawk, and Mienshao have over 80 Base Speed.
-I'll have to try Dwebble next time around, since it seems more interesting than I initially gave it credit for. My biggest concern is it being not quite fast enough after a Shell Smash to sweep if it doesn't have a level advantage or good IVs/nature, and I'd probably need to change my clock to a non-winter month (stupid Hail).
- You intentionally misquoted me, Vladimir. That's not cool.
I said in the part that you cut out that it might not have been you specifically who said that Sawk was above Uber. Looking back it was Kikuichimonji. With how you've been trying to convince me that Sawk is better than Darmanitan, though, it wasn't unreasonable to think it was you who said it.
- I take it you haven't tested or even run the numbers for Darmanitan against Ghetsis, which would make you a bit of a hypocrite. Against Bouffalant it might come down to level, nature, IV, or EV for whether or not he is OHKOd (he shouldn't need more than average EVs/IVs, but with both at 0 he comes up a little short), but it is wrong to say that Darmanitan "can't" OHKO him. Eelektross doesn't even need even average IVs. Sure, Cofagrigus isn't a good matchup for him, but any Dark or Steel Pokemon will be able to take him out with extremely little effort.
Even against offensive Pokemon, Darmanitan will generally have a speed advantage. Against Ghetsis, the only thing that doesn't have a Base Speed at least 20 points lower is Hydreigon. N's team seems almost specially designed to be a bad matchup for Darmanitan (since they tend to be very fast and half his team resist Fire), but the Elite 4 is actually pretty slow since only Krookodile, Liepard, Sigilyph, Sawk, and Mienshao have over 80 Base Speed.
-I'll have to try Dwebble next time around, since it seems more interesting than I initially gave it credit for. My biggest concern is it being not quite fast enough after a Shell Smash to sweep if it doesn't have a level advantage or good IVs/nature, and I'd probably need to change my clock to a non-winter month (stupid Hail).
i actually never gave mine shell smash but he worked great without it. was constantly winning battles because he made it pretty easily. i should try it though
Dwebble=Awesome, regardless of shit speed. Once you get it, it rapes all of the remaining gyms, except the Ground one. Thats gotta count for something.
I've actually been playing with Crustle in a playthrough, and I've been extremely impressed with it so far. Not at the E4 yet, but it starts off with a good movepool (Rock Polish, STAB Bug Bite/Smack Down, Dig by TM), does great in the Electric Gym, can sweep gyms 6-8 (I did not use Crustle on the gym trainers, but at 41, was able to get a couple Shell Smashes up on Drayden and sweep), and just does a solid job overall. Again, I haven't gotten to the E4 yet, but it should be able to solo Caitlin/Shauntal, maybe Grimsley (though who can't?), maybe set up on N, and should be able to sweep Ghetsis, though I don't know if he has priority on his team. Obviously, this is all theorymon at the moment, but I definitely think Dwebble deserves high or mid-high status, due to his ability to set up.
@TM13IceBeam: I'm not even gonna bother arguing with you, since you obviously don't know what the hell you're talking about. Mud-slap is a Sand-attack that deals damage, yet you somehow differentiate them. White players cannot realistically test Sawk, because it's almost unavailable to them. Me stating "Sawk should be placed above high tier" meant he should be in Uber, together with Archen&co. Rock Throw has 90% accuracy, not 100. I doesn't matter that Sawk cannot take on the wild pokemon in Pinwheel Forest, because it's stupid to make him face off against them (the Plasma Grunts and Rangers there, however, have Patrats, Sandile, Purloin, Herdier and the monkeys, all of which Sawk rapes upside down). Also, Sawk beats Hydreigon due to Sturdy, and relying on it isn't negative, since most pokemon rely on their abilities to be effective.
@spweasel: I never run "calcs" to test a pokemon's effectiveness in-game. I just use it. Maybe you should try that too.
Dwebble in insanely hard to train. It does beat nearly all the gyms (besides Electric and Ground), and that's the only reason why it's placed in Mid tier.
@spweasel: I never run "calcs" to test a pokemon's effectiveness in-game. I just use it. Maybe you should try that too.
Dwebble in insanely hard to train. It does beat nearly all the gyms (besides Electric and Ground), and that's the only reason why it's placed in Mid tier.
Dwebble was incredibly easy to train actually. did you try to fight water Pokemon with it or something? he is surprisingly helpfull and a pretty good Pokemon overall.
@Vladimir: how the hell do you call Dwebble hard to train? I assume you didnt even try it, cuz Dwebble is incredibly easy to train. You also said Dwebble doesnt beat the electric gym. Dwebble solos the electric gym. You really must not have tested it.
I've used Dwebble twice, once i caught it on Desert Resort, but it was extremely hard to train, because it's always outsped, cannot take hits *too* well, and is stuck with low attack for some time, making it a hinderance. However, when i caught it at route 17, it was one of my best teammembers, because evolution gives it great stat boosts and SS is amazing. It's low tier early game IMO, but high tier late-game. It's fine at mid, since this tier list takes into account how well does the pokemon perform for the entirety of the game.
And it gets destroyed in the Electric gym, 2HKOed by Volt Switch no questions asked. You actually claimed b4 that Leavanny (4x weak to Aerial Ace and Flame Charge) solos the Electric gym, so I'm not surprised you make the same argument about Dwebble. I guess you can solo it with Ducklett too >_>
And it gets destroyed in the Electric gym, 2HKOed by Volt Switch no questions asked. You actually claimed b4 that Leavanny (4x weak to Aerial Ace and Flame Charge) solos the Electric gym, so I'm not surprised you make the same argument about Dwebble. I guess you can solo it with Ducklett too >_>
Wtf man. Dwebble is awesome the entire time you have it. Just slap Eviolite on it till you get the Lucky Egg, and it tanks hits like a pro.
when i used him he either ohko or 2hko everything except like double resists. and mine did solo the electric gym. smack down and dig works really well.
@Vladimir: 3hko? Dwebble 2hko's or Ohko's everything........
Smack Down is a solid 2HKO on the Emolgas in the gym, while Volt Switch was a 3HKO at best. I did have Eviolite on though. Smack Down also doesn't trigger Static, and Dwebble can outspeed almost everything after a Rock Polish. It didn't outspeed the Zebstrika though, and I think his Volt Switch may have been in 2HKO range. I remember letting Dwebble die on Zebstrika and finishing it off with Leavanny (who, for the record, does survive a Flame Charge with some breathing room), but it did take out the gym trainers and Elesa's Emolgas on her own. I think between the gym and the N battle, Dwebble caught up to my team with no issues.
God damnit, this argument feels familiar...
God damnit, this argument feels familiar...
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