I think Joltik held its own the whole time. I never felt that it was weak. Just one charge beam, and then you can KO pretty much everything. It's easy to level b/c of the gym, and it evolves into something great really quickly. I also think that it can be useful before Thunderbolt is acquired.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
- Status
I caught a Joltik and had her a Galvantula before leaving Chargestone Cave. Yes, I babied her, but she didn't make it that hard - Electroweb/Electro Ball/Volt Switch/Bug Bite (or Signal Beam) works surprisingly well against the trainers in the cave, especially all the Plasma Goons. I got 1-2 hit kills on all those Dark Pokemon courtesy of Bug Bite/Signal Beam, Trubbish is a free kill regardless of who you use, and most everything else falls pretty quickly to Electroweb + Electro Ball. Volt Switch makes things easier, too, since switching a Pokemon in is much less painful when the enemy has already lost a chunk of HP (admittedly, my Joltik had high Speed IVs, which helps a lot with Volt Switch).
Honestly, I'd rather use Galvantula than Leavanny. Higher speed, better STAB coverage (with a Water Pokemon on your team, Grass is redundant, and no non-legendaries resist Bug + Electric but Golett), comparable damage output (Charge Beam helps make up for the weaker STAB options until Thunder is available), and much, much better defensive typing makes it preferable in my opinion, though losing a couple coverage options isn't great.
Honestly, I'd rather use Galvantula than Leavanny. Higher speed, better STAB coverage (with a Water Pokemon on your team, Grass is redundant, and no non-legendaries resist Bug + Electric but Golett), comparable damage output (Charge Beam helps make up for the weaker STAB options until Thunder is available), and much, much better defensive typing makes it preferable in my opinion, though losing a couple coverage options isn't great.
^ I used both Galvantula and Leavanny on my team
I noticed Axew wasn't as hot as you say-I had to baby it a little before the Fraxure stage. While Fraxure is good for a while, I found that if you fail to evolve it before the E4 (my team was about level 45 going in...yeah I was underlevelled), it easily becomes dead weight. (Heck, mine evolved into Haxorus RIGHT AFTER FREAKING GHETSIS. Sure it could set up on Eelektross with Eviolite, but I found it wouldn't be passing Bisharp.) Haxorus is killing stuff post-game, but this tier list doesn't consider the post-game.
Also, neutral-SP.A. nature Galvantula's Charge Beam OHKO's all of Skyla's Pokemon from my experience. It's also strong against Cheren's entire team in the next rival battle-so yeah, more free XP. I never went to Route 18 before the E4 and I still agree Joltik is High-tier/at the absoolute worst upper-mid. It can do its part against the E4. And if you're wondering...Joltik gets an entire gym to train against that Axew doesn't, one that it has a decisive advantage over. It also doesn't require a detour.
The main flaw in all the arguments is this- Joltik actually does NOT get an entire gym to train against. Due to its horrible sp.atk and low BP electric-type attacks, it cannot even 2HKO the pokemon in the gym's trainer battles (except from the 2 Duckletts), which can, on the other hand, easily 2HKO it through Eviolite (seeing as it's neutral to flying). Even as Galvantula, i doubt it can survive Swoobat's Acrobatics, while Charge Beam certainly doesn't KO.
You seem to be forgetting that Volt Switch has 70 power. That's not too far behind the 80 power that you said most Pokemon are packing attacks in the range of.
You're the only one here saying Joltik's bad, you must have been doing something wrong with yours.
Except when I played through the gym, Joltik easily 2HKOd all of the gym pokemon, OHKOing some of them for that matter and OHKOing any pokemon after the first due to Charge Beam boosts. The pokemon in the gym aren't even that strong, Swoobat's attack is the same as Joltik SpA, the Duckletts/Woobats obviously fall over, and the Tranquills are only hitting you with Air Cutters. Even the Unfezant hits only slightly stronger than Joltik. I don't know, maybe when I played through, the gym trainers decided to use taunts and set up, but I remember having absolutely no issues with Joltik being on its own. It's been a while, so I don't remember exactly how everything went down, but I do remember blowing through the place.
Either way, the argument is going nowhere because our experiences were apparently completely different with Joltik. For me, everything flowed fairly naturally. Get a bunch of Joltik travelling through the cave, catch all the ones with Compoundeyes, pick out the best. Give him an XP Share, fight to and through the tower, and then fight through the gym, which Joltik can now handle on his own, evolving shortly before Skyla, and by the time she's defeating, Galvantula is now caught up or the highest team member. No unnecessary training, no going out of the way besides giving a party member an XP share for a couple routes you're forced to go down anyways. Since apparently yours couldn't handle the gym though, that meant additional babying, going out of the way to train the thing, thus Joltik can't get caught up to the rest of the team as efficiently, thus making him a hassle and underwhelming. Since we've apparently had two completely different experiences, then there's nothing really to argue.
Either way, the argument is going nowhere because our experiences were apparently completely different with Joltik. For me, everything flowed fairly naturally. Get a bunch of Joltik travelling through the cave, catch all the ones with Compoundeyes, pick out the best. Give him an XP Share, fight to and through the tower, and then fight through the gym, which Joltik can now handle on his own, evolving shortly before Skyla, and by the time she's defeating, Galvantula is now caught up or the highest team member. No unnecessary training, no going out of the way besides giving a party member an XP share for a couple routes you're forced to go down anyways. Since apparently yours couldn't handle the gym though, that meant additional babying, going out of the way to train the thing, thus Joltik can't get caught up to the rest of the team as efficiently, thus making him a hassle and underwhelming. Since we've apparently had two completely different experiences, then there's nothing really to argue.
Same here-Joltik actually was able to get the 2HKOs/OHKOs he needed (Tranquill are TOO SLOW and their special defense is TOO LOW, and yes, Charge Beam did beat Duckletts over the head), while Galvantula outspeeds most if not all of the gym, and beats Unfezant/Swoobat (what with their relatively bad special defenses) easily. The only reason I didn't use it for all three members of Skyla's team was that I didn't want it hogging all the EXP for itself.
Either way, the positive experience seems to be the majority view.
Either way, the positive experience seems to be the majority view.
my joltik was easily able to ohko or 2hko everything in the entire gym with no fear of going down. volt switch was usually a ohko and if it wasn't he wasn't in anymore anyway. he easily is high tier. saying he needs thunderbolt to be good is ridiculous. he gets volt switch as soon as you get him and electroball soon after. by time you want a better stab you can buy thunder that gets an accuracy boost with compoundeyes.
Let's all say: 'Joltik deserves High tier' and move on. It would be nice to have Low, Lower Mid, Mid, Upper Mid, High, God again though...With about 10 Pokemon each in the upper tiers.
Now that we are through talking bout Joltik, how bout we bring Leavanny up again......
Weighing in on Joltik, I myself was originally skeptical, as it joins fairly late in the game and takes awhile to evolve (and has fairly subpar status until that point). However, all of my doubts were eliminated when I actually tried using it. To call Galvantula good is putting it mildly; electric/bug is one of the best offensive typings in the game. (It's pretty good defensive typing too, with four resistances and only two weaknesses.) CompoundEyes Thunder is pretty much the best STAB in the game, with 120 BP and 10 PP, and accuracy either 91% or 100% depending on whether you are in rain. Joltik might trail by a few levels at the time it joins but you can just slap an exp share on it and forget about it until it reaches the point where it can begin holding its own with charge beam, and volt change also works. At its best, it's one of the best attackers in the game, and at its worst, it's still not that bad. It's most certainly better than mid.
@Joltik: I still consider babying a pokemon for 10 lvls hampers the playthrough's efficiency, but since everyone else had such great experiences with it, there's really no point in me pushing this any further. I suppose i was wrong here.
@Tiers: If we were to make an "Uber" tier, what pokes do you think should be in it? Imo only Drilbur, Sawk, Darumaka and Archen deserve to be put above high.
@Tiers: If we were to make an "Uber" tier, what pokes do you think should be in it? Imo only Drilbur, Sawk, Darumaka and Archen deserve to be put above high.
i still don't see where your getting this babying thing with joltik. I didn't have to and it looks like most of us didn't either.
anyway as far as an "uber" tier goes i think conkeldurr easily gets on if you have access to trading. i didn't have much luck with drilbur(too frail for my tastes) but i probably just didn't use him right.
anyway as far as an "uber" tier goes i think conkeldurr easily gets on if you have access to trading. i didn't have much luck with drilbur(too frail for my tastes) but i probably just didn't use him right.
I'm almost tempted to say that Sawk deserves his own tier, but having those four in uber sounds fine to me. The only one I'm a bit iffy on is Darumaka. His join time is good but not nearly as good as Sawk or Drilbur, he's rather fragile and pre-evolution doesn't have the speed to ensure he'll always go first, and Hustle can be just as much of a hindrance as a help in some situations. That being said, I think his usefulness as Darmanitan is more than enough to make up for this. I'm fine with putting him in uber tier, but I think the order should be Sawk, Drilbur, Archen, followed by Darumaka.
Conkeldurr seems like a decent candidate for uber tier since it's good for a lot of the reasons Sawk is (available before the second gym, fighting type), but it's definitely worse than Sawk due to getting outsped by a lot of things. Conkledurr also learns Superpower instead of Close Combat, which is unarguably a much worse move for in-game purposes, and it learns it 8 levels later, which is a pretty big deal when you consider that Conkledurr might not even hit level 57 before the end of the game. Conkledurr probably belongs around the bottom of the uber tier.
with conkeldurr though he really doesn't need to go first. he has massive hp and defense and also gets payback which helps with the psychics. and he gets hammer arm in the 40s and that is plenty strong for ingame purposes. i found him much more reliable than sawk because either i didn't have a sturdy sawk(dies fast) or he just didn't last long. it was generally either 2hko or ohko on sawk when conkeldurr took at least 3 or 4 to go down.
uber tier would be Excadrill, Archeops, and Damanitan
I have no access to trading, so i have no idea how good Conkeldurr is, but Sawk's definately Uber tier material. He's available b4 the 2nd gym with base 125 atk off the bat, Double Kick 2 lvls later (which btw is amazing against Roggenrolas), and Brick Break is enough to take you through the game, no need to wait for Colse Combat. He's also one of the few pokes that beat Hydreigon one on one (due to Sturdy).
Sawk should not be Top/Uber Tier. While accessibility should not be a deciding factor for High Tier, it really should be when deciding Top/Uber. Finding a good Sawk is annoying in Black, and an exercise in frustration in White. He's a great Pokemon, but not enough so to make up for how hard he is to find compared to the other three (who are all very easy to find, to the point where you can either grab multiples and pick the best or save scum).
He isn't bad, but he really has too much going against him to be High Tier.
I stopped talking about Leavanny because we weren't getting anywhere. He's certainly good, but he simply isn't High Tier worthy. He has terrible defensive typing, which isn't helped by his average defenses. Grass/Bug STAB has way too much overlap in what resists it. His only real options for coverage are Aerial Ace, Shadow Claw, and Payback. He doesn't get any boosting moves until level 46, which is too late to have any significant effect on the game pre-Elite 4.
He isn't bad, but he really has too much going against him to be High Tier.
You're right that White Sawk loses points for availability; in fact it probably has the worst possible, bar stuff like Suicune and Raikou. However, getting a "good" Sawk in black should hardly be a frustration. I'm not sure what the exact appearance rate for dark patches is but from my experience with Sawk and Throh it seems to be around 20%. Ability doesn't matter significantly, and as for stats you should be fine as long as you don't have a hindering nature. Sawk's strength throughout the game is more than enough to make up for his 10-20% appearance rate.
Black Sawk is uber tier, White Sawk probably belongs somewhere around upper mid.
In my second run-through of White, I used a Sawk. Took me at least a half hour to even find one (the encounter rate is 5% in the wavy grass as I recall, so it's really low). After I caught him though, I never had one bit of trouble with him, and he was always one of my best Pokemon, and he gets CC during the E4. Provided you get one without a -Attack or Speed nature and Sturdy (which you have decent chances of doing right away) he's amazing. He is at least high tier, regardless of what game you have, and if he went to Uber tier, that would be completely understandable.
Archen really belongs in the top of the top. Darumaka is essentially a Joltik that comes earlier: it comes just before a gym that it rapes easily for EXP. And Darumaka usually OHKOs just about everything it doesn't really matter. Archen's best move, Acrobatics, comes early and having a 165 BP move off a really high Attack stat trolls every single piece of shit midgame.
I used Throh, but well, he seems like a worse Conkeldurr to me, IMO.
I used Throh, but well, he seems like a worse Conkeldurr to me, IMO.
10% in shaking grass, actually. Thats like 10 times as rare as Sigilyph and Dwebble
- Status